i think o.o' after i die... i will be come a god \o/ or an angel xDDDDD and will
protect ^^ all the persons i love \o/ like my family my friends and my love ^^
i believe in life after death, where you, yourself have ur one perfect
happiness. being with the one you love and being surrounded by the ones you
love....emm...but for me my perfect happiness is being surrounded by dragons and
floating on water ....perfect happiness right there! hehe
Strangely enough, I do believe in the afterlife. A more comforting thought, I'd
say. To think that everything would just waste away after I die...no. There is
an afterlife =P
When you die you die, you either a are creamated or b you become fertalizer and
dirt, people are afraid of death so they make up the idea of a form of
immortality, you can't have life without death and i would not want to live
forever.
merged: 05-27-2006 ~ 03:30am
And in my point of view what we do in this life therefor only matters in short
term for im sure a million years from now humans will be dead and no one will
have remembered any of us.
It strange to believe in things that we have no idea what happen... but all we
can do it hope that it well be good and it well be for us how ever i do believe
i afterlife and reincarnation
When a person dies, he or she does not pass on to the spirit world, as many
people think. How do we know this? Because the Bible says so. The Bible is a
book of truth that comes from the only true God, whose name is Jehovah. Jehovah
created humans; he well knows what happens to them when they die...
The Bible says that God formed Adam, the first man, "out of dust from the
ground." (Genesis 2:7) God put him in Paradise, the garden of Eden. If Adam
had obeyed Jehovah"s law, he would not have died; he would still be alive
on earth today. But when Adam deliberately broke God"s law, God said to
him: "You [will] return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For
dust you are and to dust you will return."--Genesis 3:19
What does this mean? Well, where was Adam before Jehovah created him from the
dust? He was nowhere. He was not an unborn spirit in heaven. He did not exist.
So when Jehovah said that Adam would "return to the ground," he meant
that Adam would die. He did not cross over to the spirit realm. At death, Adam
once again became lifeless, nonexistent. Death is the absence of
life...
But what about others who have died? Are they also nonexistent? The Bible
answers:
"All [both humans and animals] are going to one place. They have all come
to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust."--Ecclesiastes
3:20
"The dead . . . are conscious of nothing at all."--Ecclesiastes
9:5
"Their love and their hate and their jealousy have already
perished."--Ecclesiastes 9:6
"There is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [the
grave], the place to which you are going."--Ecclesiastes 9:10
"[Man] goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do
perish."--Psalm 146:4
Ahh... DarkIngram, I've already debated this, but the verses you quoted from the
Bible refer to the body. Yours is the Jehova's Witnesses interpretation of the
Bible. Protestant Christianity, and most other denominations of Christianity
believe in a spirit world.
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
- Ecclesiastes 12:7
Body -> dust
Spirit -> returns to God.
"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy
hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." -
Luke 23:46
And many other verses in the Bible refer to a spirit. Now I don't want further
debate on this. Different interpretation is different interpretation. If this
was an issue that could be resolved conclusively there wouldn't be different
denominations of Christians. Let others decide for themselves which is the true
one.
We are living souls... when e we dies, we are dead souls.... there is no
immortal soul & there is no afterlife...
At death no actual movement from the earth to the heavenly realm occurs when the
spirit "returns" to God. Once the life-force is gone from a person,
only God has the ability to restore it to him. So the spirit "returns to
the true God" in the sense that any hope of future life for that person now
rests entirely with Jehovah God...
The spirit can be compared to the electric current that activates a machine or
an appliance and enables it to perform its function. Just as the current never
takes on the features of the equipment it activates, the life-force does not
take on any of the characteristics of the creatures it animates. It has no
personality and no thinking ability...
When Adam died, what happened to his soul? Well, remember that in the Bible the
word "soul" often simply refers to a person. So when we say that Adam
died, we are saying that the soul named Adam died. This might sound unusual to a
person who believes in the immortality of the soul. However, the Bible
states:
"Look! All the souls--to me they belong. As
the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son--to me they belong. The
soul that is sinning--it itself will die."--Ezekiel 18:4
You see, the soul of a man dies...
"And Jehovah went on to say to Moses: "Talk to the priests, Aaron's
sons, and you must say to them, 'For a deceased
soul no one may defile himself among his people."--Leviticus 21:1
"All the days of his keeping separate to Jehovah he may not come toward any
dead soul."--Numbers 6:6
A similar reference to the soul is found at:
"And he himself went into the wilderness a day's journey, and at length
came and sat down under a certain broom tree. And he began to ask that his soul might die and to say: "It is enough!
Now, O Jehovah, take my soul away, for I am no better than my
forefathers."--1 Kings 19:4
"And it came about that, as soon as the sun shone forth, God also went on
to appoint a parching east wind, and the sun kept striking upon the head of
Jonah, so that he was swooning away; and he kept asking that his soul might die, and he repeatedly said:
"My dying off is better than my being alive."--Jonah 4:8
"Next he said to them: "Is it lawful on the sabbath to do a good deed
or to do a bad deed, to save or to kill a soul?" But they kept
silent."--Mark 3:4
So the death of the soul simply means the death of the person... if the soul
dies, there is no reason to believe in a spirit world or afterlife...
What is the point of resurrection if you live in heaven? Christendom like Roman
Catholics, Protestants and other sects believe in a immortal soul, which is not
true & unbiblical...
Spirit & soul are different...
Soul:
Hebrew Word="Nephesh"
Greek Word= "Psykhe"
Spirit:
Hebrew Word="Ruach"
Greek Word="Pneuma"
Soul refers to living creatures like us & animals.. While the spirit refers
to a "life force" that gives a life...
I'm an a believer of immortal soul before, (because I'm a Catholic before) but
when I studied the bible carefully, I known the truth... that's why I joined
Jehovah's Witnesses, the true Christian religion...
Hmm... you may be right. However this is also a problem of how we define
"afterlife".
The fact that the Bible predicts a ressurection, ie. a regaining of
consciousness after death, is to me defined as the "afterlife". For
you there is no "afterlife" because consciousness is not regained
directly after death. However we both agree that we will be conscious again
sometime after we die I think.
Edits:
On further study of the Bible I believe there is consciouness after death. What
do you think of this passage?
"And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate,
full of sores,
And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table:
moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich
man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off,
and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that
he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am
tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good
things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art
tormented.
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that
they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us,
that [would come] from thence.
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my
father's house:
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come
into this place of torment.
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they
will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they
be persuaded, though one rose from the
dead." - Luke 16:20-31
How can he talk and experience torment if he were not conscious as you have
argued? I understand that this is a parable, but Jesus does not teach falsehood,
and I doubt that he would fabricate the entire story if it were not based on
truth.
of course i do... i am not a practice of the buddhism, but i have my reasons to
believe there's afterlife.
life is a cycle... is like carbide cycle... why everythin has a cycle? Maybe
becuz is part of life and i believe human life as itself should have a cycle
posted...
and that cycle is the afterlife and afterlife... u know... Karma:)
i don't wanna live in heaven after i die i want to live in disneyland so maybe
i'll commit suscide there one day and not follow the white light and stay in
disneyland forever
reincarnation would be nice. i want to live through the nano/space age and
beyond.
however, eternal bliss in heaven is defiently appealing...
who knows, i dont like to think about it. i would rather leave it a surprise.
like a reward after all these years of living. i just hope there is something.
I have just watch one drama and inside it say that after dunno how many 150
million years later, you will gonna meet the person you met this year... so
dunno whether it`s true but it`s very long... Still i tink i would want to...
Quote by Persocom01Hmm... you may be
right. However this is also a problem of how we define
"afterlife".
The fact that the Bible predicts a ressurection, ie. a regaining of
consciousness after death, is to me defined as the "afterlife". For
you there is no "afterlife" because consciousness is not regained
directly after death. However we both agree that we will be conscious again
sometime after we die I think.
Edits:
On further study of the Bible I believe there is consciouness after death. What
do you think of this passage?
"And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate,
full of sores,
And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table:
moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich
man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off,
and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that
he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am
tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good
things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art
tormented.
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that
they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us,
that [would come] from thence.
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my
father's house:
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come
into this place of torment.
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they
will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they
be persuaded, though one rose from the
dead." - Luke 16:20-31
How can he talk and experience torment if he were not conscious as you have
argued? I understand that this is a parable, but Jesus does not teach falsehood,
and I doubt that he would fabricate the entire story if it were not based on
truth.
"A Rich Man in Hades (Hell, Graveyard)"
Since Hades is just the common grave of dead mankind, why does the Bible speak
of a rich man as undergoing torments in the fire of Hades? Does this show that
Hades, or at least a part of it, is a place of fiery torment?
Teachers of hellfire eagerly point to this account as definite proof that there
is indeed a hell of torment that awaits the wicked. But, in so doing, they
disregard such clear and repeated Biblical statements as: "The soul that is
sinning--it itself will die." (Ezekiel 18:4, 20) And: "As for the
dead, they are conscious of nothing at all." (Ecclesiastes 9:5) Clearly
these statements do not support the idea of torment for "lost souls"
in a fiery hell...
The Bible's teaching about the condition of the dead therefore leaves many of
Christendom's clergymen in an awkward position. The very book on which they
claim to base their teachings, the Bible, conflicts with their doctrines. Yet,
consciously or subconsciously, they feel impelled to reach into the Bible to
seize on something to prove their point, thereby blinding themselves and others
to the truth. Often this is done deliberately...
On the other hand, sincere seekers for the truth want to know what is right.
They realize that they would only be fooling themselves if they rejected
portions of God's Word while claiming to base their beliefs on other parts. They
want to know what the Bible actually says about the condition of the dead. And,
to fill out the picture, they want to know the meaning of what is said about the
rich man who experienced torment in Hades, and how that fits in with the rest of
the Bible...
It was Jesus Christ who spoke about a certain rich man and also a beggar named
Lazarus. His words are found at Luke 16:19-31 and read:
"A certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen,
enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence. But a certain beggar named
Lazarus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers and desiring to be filled
with the things dropping from the table of the rich man. Yes, too, the dogs
would come and lick his ulcers. Now in course of time the beggar died and he was
carried off by the angels to the bosom position of Abraham...
"Also, the rich man died and was buried. And in Hades he lifted up his
eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in the
bosom position with him. So he called and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy
on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue,
because I am in anguish in this blazing fire.' But Abraham said, 'Child,
remember that you received in full your good things in your lifetime, but
Lazarus correspondingly the injurious things. Now, however, he is having comfort
here but you are in anguish. And besides all these things, a great chasm has
been fixed between us and you people, so that those wanting to go over from here
to you people cannot, neither may people cross over from there to us.' Then he
said, 'In that event I ask you, father, to send him to the house of my father,
for I have five brothers, in order that he may give them a thorough witness,
that they also should not get into this place of torment.' But Abraham said,
'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to these.' Then he said, 'No,
indeed, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them they will
repent.' But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets,
neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead."
Note what is said about the rich man. Why was he tormented in Hades? What had he
done? Jesus did not say that the rich man led a degraded life, did he? All that
Jesus said was that the man was rich, dressed well and feasted sumptuously. Does
such conduct of itself merit punishment by torment? True, a serious failing is
implied in the attitude of the rich man toward the beggar Lazarus. The rich man
lacked compassion for him. But did that failing distinguish him sufficiently
from Lazarus?
Think about what Jesus said concerning Lazarus. Is there anything in the account
to lead us to conclude that, if the situation had been reversed, Lazarus would
have been a compassionate man? Do we read that Lazarus built up a record of fine
works with God, leading to his coming into the "bosom position of
Abraham," that is, a position of divine favor? Jesus did not say that. He
merely described Lazarus as a sickly beggar...
So is it logical to conclude that all sickly beggars will receive divine
blessings at death, whereas all rich men will go to a place of conscious
torment? Not at all. Begging is of itself no mark of God's favor. To the
contrary, the Bible contains the prayerful expression: "Give me neither
poverty nor riches." (Proverbs 30:8) And of his time, King David wrote:
"I have not seen anyone righteous left entirely, nor his offspring looking
for bread."--Psalm 37:25
If we take Jesus' words literally, we would have to draw still other conclusions
that would make the illustration strange indeed. These include: That those
enjoying celestial happiness are in position to see and speak to those suffering
torment in Hades. That the water adhering to one's fingertip is not evaporated
by the fire of Hades. And, that, although the torment of Hades is great, a mere
drop of water would bring relief to the sufferer...
Taken literally, do these things sound reasonable to you? Or, do you feel,
instead, that what Jesus said was not meant to be taken literally? Is there any
way to be sure?
THE "RICH MAN" AND "LAZARUS" IDENTIFIED
Examine the context. To whom was Jesus talking? At Luke 16:14 we are told:
"Now the Pharisees, who were money lovers, were listening to all these
things, and they began to sneer at him."
Since Jesus spoke in the hearing of the Pharisees, was he relating an actual
case or was he simply using an illustration? Concerning Jesus' method of
teaching the crowds, we read: "Indeed, without an illustration he would not
speak to them." (Matthew 13:34) Accordingly, the account about the rich man
and Lazarus must be an illustration...
This illustration was evidently directed to the Pharisees. As a class they were
like the rich man. They loved money, as well as prominence and flattering
titles. Jesus said of them: "All the works they do they do to be viewed by
men; for they broaden the scripture-containing cases that they wear as
safeguards, and enlarge the fringes of their garments. They like the most
prominent place at evening meals and the front seats in the synagogues, and the
greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by men."--Matthew
23:5-7
The Pharisees looked down on others, especially on tax collectors, harlots and
others having the reputation of being sinners. (Luke 18:11, 12) On one occasion
when officers, sent to arrest Jesus, came back empty-handed because of having
been impressed by his teaching, the Pharisees spoke up: "You have not been
misled also, have you? Not one of the rulers or of the Pharisees has put faith
in him, has he? But this crowd that does not know the Law are accursed
people."--John 7:47-49
Hence, in the parable the beggar Lazarus well represents those humble persons
whom the Pharisees despised but who repented and became followers of Jesus
Christ. Jesus showed that these despised sinners, upon repenting, would gain a
position of divine favor, whereas the Pharisees and other prominent religious
leaders as a class would lose out. He said: "Truly I say to you that the
tax collectors and the harlots are going ahead of you into the kingdom of God.
For John came to you in a way of righteousness, but you did not believe him.
However, the tax collectors and the harlots believed him, and you, although you
saw this, did not feel regret afterwards so as to believe him."--Matthew
21:31, 32
DEATH OF THE "RICH MAN" AND OF "LAZARUS"
What, then, is signified by the death of the "rich man" and of
"Lazarus"? We do not need to conclude that it refers to actual death.
As used in the Bible, death can also represent a great change in the condition
of individuals. For example: Persons pursuing a course of life contrary to God's
will are spoken of as being 'dead in trespasses and sins.' But when they come
into an approved standing before God as disciples of Jesus Christ they are
referred to as coming "alive." (Ephesians 2:1, 5; Colossians 2:13) At
the same time such living persons become "dead" to sin. We read:
"Reckon yourselves to be dead indeed with reference to sin but living with
reference to God by Christ Jesus."--Romans 6:11
Since both the "rich man" and "Lazarus" of Jesus' parable
are clearly symbolic, logically their deaths are also symbolic. But in what
sense do they die?
The key to answering this question lies in what Jesus said just before
introducing the illustration: "Everyone that divorces his wife and marries
another commits adultery, and he that marries a woman divorced from a husband
commits adultery." (Luke 16:18) This statement may appear to be completely
unrelated to the illustration. But this is not the case...
By reason of the Mosaic law the nation of Israel was in a covenant relationship
with God and therefore could be spoken of as being a wife to him. At Jeremiah
3:14, for example, God refers to the nation as an unfaithful wife:"Return,
O you renegade sons,' is the utterance of Jehovah. 'For I myself have become the
husbandly owner of you people." Then, with the coming of Jesus, an
opportunity was extended to the Jews to become part of his "bride."
That is why John the Baptist said to his disciples: "You yourselves bear me
witness that I said, I am not the Christ, but, I have been sent forth in advance
of that one. He that has the bride is the bridegroom. However, the friend of the
bridegroom, when he stands and hears him, has a great deal of joy on account of
the voice of the bridegroom. Therefore this joy of mine has been made full. That
one [Jesus] must go on increasing, but I must go on decreasing."--John
3:28-30
In order to become part of Christ's "bride," the Jews had to be
released from the Law that made them, figuratively speaking, a wife to God.
Without such release, they could not come into a wifely relationship with
Christ, as that would be an adulterous relationship. The words of Romans 7:1-6
confirm this:
"Can it be that you do not know, brothers, (for I am speaking to those who
know law,) that the Law is master over a man as long as he lives? For instance,
a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is alive; but if her
husband dies, she is discharged from the law of her husband. So, then, while her
husband is living, she would be styled an adulteress if she became another
man's. But if her husband dies, she is free from his law, so that she is not an
adulteress if she becomes another man's...
"So, my brothers, you also were made dead to the Law through the body of
the Christ, that you might become another's, the one's who was raised up from
the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. . . . Now we have been discharged
from the Law, because we have died to that by which we were being held fast,
that we might be slaves in a new sense by the spirit, and not in the old sense
by the written code."
While the death of Jesus Christ was the basis for releasing the Jews from the
Law, even before his death repentant ones could come into a favored position
with God as disciples of his Son. The message and work of John the Baptist and
of Jesus Christ opened the door for the Jews to seize the opportunity to gain
divine favor and put themselves in line for a heavenly inheritance as members of
Christ's bride. As Jesus himself expressed it: "From the days of John the
Baptist until now the kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press,
and those pressing forward are seizing it."--Matthew 11:12
Hence, the work and message of John the Baptist and of Jesus Christ began to
lead toward a complete change in the condition of the symbolic "rich
man" and "Lazarus." Both classes died to their former condition.
The repentant "Lazarus" class came into a position of divine favor,
whereas the "rich man" class came under divine disfavor because of
persisting in unrepentance. At one time the "Lazarus" class had looked
to the Pharisees and other religious leaders of Judaism for spiritual
"crumbs." But Jesus' imparting the truth to them filled their
spiritual needs. Contrasting the spiritual feeding provided by Jesus with that
of the religious leaders, the Bible reports: "The crowds were astounded at
his way of teaching; for he was teaching them as a person having authority, and
not as their scribes." (Matthew 7:28, 29) Truly a complete reversal had
taken place. The religious leaders of Judaism were shown up as having nothing to
offer to the "Lazarus" class...
On the day of Pentecost of the year 33 C.E. the change in conditions was
accomplished. At that time the new covenant replaced the old Law covenant. Those
who had repented and accepted Jesus were then fully released from the old Law
covenant. They died to it. On that day of Pentecost there was also unmistakable
evidence that the disciples of Jesus Christ had been exalted far above the
Pharisees and other prominent religious leaders. Not the religious leaders of
Judaism, but these disciples received God's spirit, enabling them to speak about
"the magnificent things of God" in the native languages of people from
widely scattered places. (Acts 2:5-11) What a marvelous manifestation this was
of their having God's blessing and approval! The "Lazarus" class had
indeed come into the favored situation by becoming the spiritual seed of the
Greater Abraham, Jehovah. This was pictured as the "bosom
position."--Compare John 1:18
As for the unrepentant Pharisees and other prominent religious leaders, they
were dead to their former position of seeming favor. They were in
"Hades." Remaining unrepentant, they were separated from the faithful
disciples of Jesus as if by a "great chasm." This was a
"chasm" of God's unchangeable, righteous judgment. Of this, we read in
Scripture: "Your judicial decision is a vast watery deep."--Psalm
36:6
THE "RICH MAN'S" TORMENT
The "rich man" class was also tormented. How? By the fiery judgment
messages of God being proclaimed by Jesus' disciples. Compare Revelation
14:10
That the religious leaders were tormented by the message proclaimed by Jesus'
disciples there can be no question. They tried desperately to stop the
proclamation. When the apostles of Jesus Christ made their defense before the
Jewish supreme court composed of prominent religious men, the judges' felt
deeply cut and were wanting to do away with them. (Acts 5:33) Later, the
disciple Stephen's defense had a like tormenting effect upon the members of that
court. "They felt cut to their hearts and began to gnash their teeth at
him."--Acts 7:54
These religious leaders wanted the disciples of Jesus to come and 'cool their
tongue.' They wanted the "Lazarus" class to leave the "bosom
position" of God's favor and present his message in such a way as not to
cause them discomfort. Similarly, they wanted the "Lazarus" class to
water down God's message so as not to put their "five brothers," their
religious allies, in a "place of torment." Yes, they did not want any
of their associates to be tormented by judgment messages...
But, as indicated by Jesus' illustration, neither the "rich man" class
nor his religious allies would be freed from the tormenting effects of the
message proclaimed by the "Lazarus" class. The apostles of the Lord
Jesus Christ refused to water down the message. They refused to stop teaching on
the basis of Jesus' name. Their reply to the Jewish supreme court was: "We
must obey God as ruler rather than men."--Acts 5:29
If the religious allies of the "rich man" wanted to escape that
torment, they could do so. They had "Moses and the Prophets," that is,
they had the inspired Holy Scriptures written by Moses and other ancient
prophets. Not once did those inspired Scriptures point to any literal place of
torment after death, but they did contain all that was necessary to identify
Jesus as the promised Messiah or Christ. (Deuteronomy 18:15, 18, 19; 1 Peter
1:10, 11) Hence, if the "rich man" class and his "five
brothers" had paid attention to "Moses and the Prophets," they
would have accepted Jesus as the Messiah. That would have brought them in line
for divine favor and shielded them from the tormenting effects of God's judgment
message...
CHRISTENDOM SHOULD KNOW
There is little reason for Christendom's clergymen not to be familiar with this
understanding of Jesus' parable. A leading Protestant commentary, The
Interpreter's Bible, calls attention to a similar explanation. It points out
that many interpreters believe Jesus' words to be "an allegorical appendix
that presupposes the conflict between early Christianity and orthodox Judaism.
The rich man and his brothers represent the unbelieving Jews. Jesus is made to
assert that they have stubbornly refused to repent in spite of the obvious
testimony to himself in Scripture and to predict that they will fail to be
impressed by his resurrection. It is conceivable that Luke and his readers
imposed some such interpretation on these verses."
In view of this, we can rightly ask: Why have Christendom's clergymen not at
least acknowledged to their church people that this is a parable? Why do those
who know that the Bible does not teach the immortality of the human soul
continue to put a literal application on an obvious parable? Is this not
dishonest? Are they not showing disregard for the Word of God, deliberately
hiding the facts?
Death is allways only a option
i think o.o' after i die... i will be come a god \o/ or an angel xDDDDD and will protect ^^ all the persons i love \o/ like my family my friends and my love ^^
i believe in life after death, where you, yourself have ur one perfect happiness. being with the one you love and being surrounded by the ones you love....emm...but for me my perfect happiness is being surrounded by dragons and floating on water
....perfect happiness right there! hehe
Maybe you should look at it from this point of view:
-= What if there is no afterlife? =-
If you do not believe in an afterlife, then there is no true future for you is there?
Does it matter whether you died rich or poor?
Does it matter whether you were famous or powerful?
Does it matter if you had lots of children?
Does it matter whether you were 'good' or 'evil'?
Does it really matter how much of a good time you've had on this earth?
-= What do any of these things mean for you if there is no afterlife? =-
I believe all these mean nothing. Absolutely nothing. In fact I don't even know why you bother living if you don't believe in an afterlife.
Strangely enough, I do believe in the afterlife. A more comforting thought, I'd say. To think that everything would just waste away after I die...no. There is an afterlife =P
When you die you die, you either a are creamated or b you become fertalizer and dirt, people are afraid of death so they make up the idea of a form of immortality, you can't have life without death and i would not want to live forever.
merged: 05-27-2006 ~ 03:30am
And in my point of view what we do in this life therefor only matters in short term for im sure a million years from now humans will be dead and no one will have remembered any of us.
Yes, its verry true that afterlife exists... ask anyone who already died... 9_9
i believe in after life but no to reincarnation. if ur moslem u must believe because it is ur (i forgot in english)
It strange to believe in things that we have no idea what happen... but all we can do it hope that it well be good and it well be for us how ever i do believe i afterlife and reincarnation
When a person dies, he or she does not pass on to the spirit world, as many people think. How do we know this? Because the Bible says so. The Bible is a book of truth that comes from the only true God, whose name is Jehovah. Jehovah created humans; he well knows what happens to them when they die...
The Bible says that God formed Adam, the first man, "out of dust from the ground." (Genesis 2:7) God put him in Paradise, the garden of Eden. If Adam had obeyed Jehovah"s law, he would not have died; he would still be alive on earth today. But when Adam deliberately broke God"s law, God said to him: "You [will] return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return."--Genesis 3:19
What does this mean? Well, where was Adam before Jehovah created him from the dust? He was nowhere. He was not an unborn spirit in heaven. He did not exist. So when Jehovah said that Adam would "return to the ground," he meant that Adam would die. He did not cross over to the spirit realm. At death, Adam once again became lifeless, nonexistent. Death is the absence of life...
But what about others who have died? Are they also nonexistent? The Bible answers:
"All [both humans and animals] are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust."--Ecclesiastes 3:20
"The dead . . . are conscious of nothing at all."--Ecclesiastes 9:5
"Their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished."--Ecclesiastes 9:6
"There is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [the grave], the place to which you are going."--Ecclesiastes 9:10
"[Man] goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish."--Psalm 146:4
Ahh... DarkIngram, I've already debated this, but the verses you quoted from the Bible refer to the body. Yours is the Jehova's Witnesses interpretation of the Bible. Protestant Christianity, and most other denominations of Christianity believe in a spirit world.
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." - Ecclesiastes 12:7
Body -> dust
Spirit -> returns to God.
"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." - Luke 23:46
And many other verses in the Bible refer to a spirit. Now I don't want further debate on this. Different interpretation is different interpretation. If this was an issue that could be resolved conclusively there wouldn't be different denominations of Christians. Let others decide for themselves which is the true one.
same here.
@Persocom01:
We are living souls... when e we dies, we are dead souls.... there is no immortal soul & there is no afterlife...
At death no actual movement from the earth to the heavenly realm occurs when the spirit "returns" to God. Once the life-force is gone from a person, only God has the ability to restore it to him. So the spirit "returns to the true God" in the sense that any hope of future life for that person now rests entirely with Jehovah God...
The spirit can be compared to the electric current that activates a machine or an appliance and enables it to perform its function. Just as the current never takes on the features of the equipment it activates, the life-force does not take on any of the characteristics of the creatures it animates. It has no personality and no thinking ability...
When Adam died, what happened to his soul? Well, remember that in the Bible the word "soul" often simply refers to a person. So when we say that Adam died, we are saying that the soul named Adam died. This might sound unusual to a person who believes in the immortality of the soul. However, the Bible states:
"Look! All the souls--to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son--to me they belong. The soul that is sinning--it itself will die."--Ezekiel 18:4
You see, the soul of a man dies...
"And Jehovah went on to say to Moses: "Talk to the priests, Aaron's sons, and you must say to them, 'For a deceased soul no one may defile himself among his people."--Leviticus 21:1
"All the days of his keeping separate to Jehovah he may not come toward any dead soul."--Numbers 6:6
A similar reference to the soul is found at:
"And he himself went into the wilderness a day's journey, and at length came and sat down under a certain broom tree. And he began to ask that his soul might die and to say: "It is enough! Now, O Jehovah, take my soul away, for I am no better than my forefathers."--1 Kings 19:4
"And it came about that, as soon as the sun shone forth, God also went on to appoint a parching east wind, and the sun kept striking upon the head of Jonah, so that he was swooning away; and he kept asking that his soul might die, and he repeatedly said: "My dying off is better than my being alive."--Jonah 4:8
"Next he said to them: "Is it lawful on the sabbath to do a good deed or to do a bad deed, to save or to kill a soul?" But they kept silent."--Mark 3:4
So the death of the soul simply means the death of the person... if the soul dies, there is no reason to believe in a spirit world or afterlife...
What is the point of resurrection if you live in heaven? Christendom like Roman Catholics, Protestants and other sects believe in a immortal soul, which is not true & unbiblical...
Spirit & soul are different...
Soul:
Hebrew Word="Nephesh"
Greek Word= "Psykhe"
Spirit:
Hebrew Word="Ruach"
Greek Word="Pneuma"
Soul refers to living creatures like us & animals.. While the spirit refers to a "life force" that gives a life...
I'm an a believer of immortal soul before, (because I'm a Catholic before) but when I studied the bible carefully, I known the truth... that's why I joined Jehovah's Witnesses, the true Christian religion...
Hmm... you may be right. However this is also a problem of how we define "afterlife".
The fact that the Bible predicts a ressurection, ie. a regaining of consciousness after death, is to me defined as the "afterlife". For you there is no "afterlife" because consciousness is not regained directly after death. However we both agree that we will be conscious again sometime after we die I think.
Edits:
On further study of the Bible I believe there is consciouness after death. What do you think of this passage?
"And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." - Luke 16:20-31
How can he talk and experience torment if he were not conscious as you have argued? I understand that this is a parable, but Jesus does not teach falsehood, and I doubt that he would fabricate the entire story if it were not based on truth.
of course i do... i am not a practice of the buddhism, but i have my reasons to believe there's afterlife.
life is a cycle... is like carbide cycle... why everythin has a cycle? Maybe becuz is part of life and i believe human life as itself should have a cycle posted...
and that cycle is the afterlife and afterlife... u know... Karma:)
i do!
i don't wanna live in heaven after i die i want to live in disneyland so maybe i'll commit suscide there one day and not follow the white light and stay in disneyland forever
Yes, I very believe it
because I have talk with people who are dead in Malang, Indonesia
[MediX]
reincarnation would be nice. i want to live through the nano/space age and beyond.
however, eternal bliss in heaven is defiently appealing...
who knows, i dont like to think about it. i would rather leave it a surprise. like a reward after all these years of living. i just hope there is something.
maybe....
sometimes i try to imagine the time when i am looking at my own corpse...........
I have just watch one drama and inside it say that after dunno how many 150 million years later, you will gonna meet the person you met this year... so dunno whether it`s true but it`s very long... Still i tink i would want to...
"A Rich Man in Hades (Hell, Graveyard)"
Since Hades is just the common grave of dead mankind, why does the Bible speak of a rich man as undergoing torments in the fire of Hades? Does this show that Hades, or at least a part of it, is a place of fiery torment?
Teachers of hellfire eagerly point to this account as definite proof that there is indeed a hell of torment that awaits the wicked. But, in so doing, they disregard such clear and repeated Biblical statements as: "The soul that is sinning--it itself will die." (Ezekiel 18:4, 20) And: "As for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all." (Ecclesiastes 9:5) Clearly these statements do not support the idea of torment for "lost souls" in a fiery hell...
The Bible's teaching about the condition of the dead therefore leaves many of Christendom's clergymen in an awkward position. The very book on which they claim to base their teachings, the Bible, conflicts with their doctrines. Yet, consciously or subconsciously, they feel impelled to reach into the Bible to seize on something to prove their point, thereby blinding themselves and others to the truth. Often this is done deliberately...
On the other hand, sincere seekers for the truth want to know what is right. They realize that they would only be fooling themselves if they rejected portions of God's Word while claiming to base their beliefs on other parts. They want to know what the Bible actually says about the condition of the dead. And, to fill out the picture, they want to know the meaning of what is said about the rich man who experienced torment in Hades, and how that fits in with the rest of the Bible...
It was Jesus Christ who spoke about a certain rich man and also a beggar named Lazarus. His words are found at Luke 16:19-31 and read:
"A certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence. But a certain beggar named Lazarus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man. Yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers. Now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom position of Abraham...
"Also, the rich man died and was buried. And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in the bosom position with him. So he called and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this blazing fire.' But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you received in full your good things in your lifetime, but Lazarus correspondingly the injurious things. Now, however, he is having comfort here but you are in anguish. And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you people, so that those wanting to go over from here to you people cannot, neither may people cross over from there to us.' Then he said, 'In that event I ask you, father, to send him to the house of my father, for I have five brothers, in order that he may give them a thorough witness, that they also should not get into this place of torment.' But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to these.' Then he said, 'No, indeed, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them they will repent.' But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead."
Note what is said about the rich man. Why was he tormented in Hades? What had he done? Jesus did not say that the rich man led a degraded life, did he? All that Jesus said was that the man was rich, dressed well and feasted sumptuously. Does such conduct of itself merit punishment by torment? True, a serious failing is implied in the attitude of the rich man toward the beggar Lazarus. The rich man lacked compassion for him. But did that failing distinguish him sufficiently from Lazarus?
Think about what Jesus said concerning Lazarus. Is there anything in the account to lead us to conclude that, if the situation had been reversed, Lazarus would have been a compassionate man? Do we read that Lazarus built up a record of fine works with God, leading to his coming into the "bosom position of Abraham," that is, a position of divine favor? Jesus did not say that. He merely described Lazarus as a sickly beggar...
So is it logical to conclude that all sickly beggars will receive divine blessings at death, whereas all rich men will go to a place of conscious torment? Not at all. Begging is of itself no mark of God's favor. To the contrary, the Bible contains the prayerful expression: "Give me neither poverty nor riches." (Proverbs 30:8) And of his time, King David wrote: "I have not seen anyone righteous left entirely, nor his offspring looking for bread."--Psalm 37:25
If we take Jesus' words literally, we would have to draw still other conclusions that would make the illustration strange indeed. These include: That those enjoying celestial happiness are in position to see and speak to those suffering torment in Hades. That the water adhering to one's fingertip is not evaporated by the fire of Hades. And, that, although the torment of Hades is great, a mere drop of water would bring relief to the sufferer...
Taken literally, do these things sound reasonable to you? Or, do you feel, instead, that what Jesus said was not meant to be taken literally? Is there any way to be sure?
THE "RICH MAN" AND "LAZARUS" IDENTIFIED
Examine the context. To whom was Jesus talking? At Luke 16:14 we are told: "Now the Pharisees, who were money lovers, were listening to all these things, and they began to sneer at him."
Since Jesus spoke in the hearing of the Pharisees, was he relating an actual case or was he simply using an illustration? Concerning Jesus' method of teaching the crowds, we read: "Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them." (Matthew 13:34) Accordingly, the account about the rich man and Lazarus must be an illustration...
This illustration was evidently directed to the Pharisees. As a class they were like the rich man. They loved money, as well as prominence and flattering titles. Jesus said of them: "All the works they do they do to be viewed by men; for they broaden the scripture-containing cases that they wear as safeguards, and enlarge the fringes of their garments. They like the most prominent place at evening meals and the front seats in the synagogues, and the greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by men."--Matthew 23:5-7
The Pharisees looked down on others, especially on tax collectors, harlots and others having the reputation of being sinners. (Luke 18:11, 12) On one occasion when officers, sent to arrest Jesus, came back empty-handed because of having been impressed by his teaching, the Pharisees spoke up: "You have not been misled also, have you? Not one of the rulers or of the Pharisees has put faith in him, has he? But this crowd that does not know the Law are accursed people."--John 7:47-49
Hence, in the parable the beggar Lazarus well represents those humble persons whom the Pharisees despised but who repented and became followers of Jesus Christ. Jesus showed that these despised sinners, upon repenting, would gain a position of divine favor, whereas the Pharisees and other prominent religious leaders as a class would lose out. He said: "Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and the harlots are going ahead of you into the kingdom of God. For John came to you in a way of righteousness, but you did not believe him. However, the tax collectors and the harlots believed him, and you, although you saw this, did not feel regret afterwards so as to believe him."--Matthew 21:31, 32
DEATH OF THE "RICH MAN" AND OF "LAZARUS"
What, then, is signified by the death of the "rich man" and of "Lazarus"? We do not need to conclude that it refers to actual death. As used in the Bible, death can also represent a great change in the condition of individuals. For example: Persons pursuing a course of life contrary to God's will are spoken of as being 'dead in trespasses and sins.' But when they come into an approved standing before God as disciples of Jesus Christ they are referred to as coming "alive." (Ephesians 2:1, 5; Colossians 2:13) At the same time such living persons become "dead" to sin. We read: "Reckon yourselves to be dead indeed with reference to sin but living with reference to God by Christ Jesus."--Romans 6:11
Since both the "rich man" and "Lazarus" of Jesus' parable are clearly symbolic, logically their deaths are also symbolic. But in what sense do they die?
The key to answering this question lies in what Jesus said just before introducing the illustration: "Everyone that divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he that marries a woman divorced from a husband commits adultery." (Luke 16:18) This statement may appear to be completely unrelated to the illustration. But this is not the case...
By reason of the Mosaic law the nation of Israel was in a covenant relationship with God and therefore could be spoken of as being a wife to him. At Jeremiah 3:14, for example, God refers to the nation as an unfaithful wife:"Return, O you renegade sons,' is the utterance of Jehovah. 'For I myself have become the husbandly owner of you people." Then, with the coming of Jesus, an opportunity was extended to the Jews to become part of his "bride." That is why John the Baptist said to his disciples: "You yourselves bear me witness that I said, I am not the Christ, but, I have been sent forth in advance of that one. He that has the bride is the bridegroom. However, the friend of the bridegroom, when he stands and hears him, has a great deal of joy on account of the voice of the bridegroom. Therefore this joy of mine has been made full. That one [Jesus] must go on increasing, but I must go on decreasing."--John 3:28-30
In order to become part of Christ's "bride," the Jews had to be released from the Law that made them, figuratively speaking, a wife to God. Without such release, they could not come into a wifely relationship with Christ, as that would be an adulterous relationship. The words of Romans 7:1-6 confirm this:
"Can it be that you do not know, brothers, (for I am speaking to those who know law,) that the Law is master over a man as long as he lives? For instance, a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is alive; but if her husband dies, she is discharged from the law of her husband. So, then, while her husband is living, she would be styled an adulteress if she became another man's. But if her husband dies, she is free from his law, so that she is not an adulteress if she becomes another man's...
"So, my brothers, you also were made dead to the Law through the body of the Christ, that you might become another's, the one's who was raised up from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. . . . Now we have been discharged from the Law, because we have died to that by which we were being held fast, that we might be slaves in a new sense by the spirit, and not in the old sense by the written code."
While the death of Jesus Christ was the basis for releasing the Jews from the Law, even before his death repentant ones could come into a favored position with God as disciples of his Son. The message and work of John the Baptist and of Jesus Christ opened the door for the Jews to seize the opportunity to gain divine favor and put themselves in line for a heavenly inheritance as members of Christ's bride. As Jesus himself expressed it: "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it."--Matthew 11:12
Hence, the work and message of John the Baptist and of Jesus Christ began to lead toward a complete change in the condition of the symbolic "rich man" and "Lazarus." Both classes died to their former condition. The repentant "Lazarus" class came into a position of divine favor, whereas the "rich man" class came under divine disfavor because of persisting in unrepentance. At one time the "Lazarus" class had looked to the Pharisees and other religious leaders of Judaism for spiritual "crumbs." But Jesus' imparting the truth to them filled their spiritual needs. Contrasting the spiritual feeding provided by Jesus with that of the religious leaders, the Bible reports: "The crowds were astounded at his way of teaching; for he was teaching them as a person having authority, and not as their scribes." (Matthew 7:28, 29) Truly a complete reversal had taken place. The religious leaders of Judaism were shown up as having nothing to offer to the "Lazarus" class...
On the day of Pentecost of the year 33 C.E. the change in conditions was accomplished. At that time the new covenant replaced the old Law covenant. Those who had repented and accepted Jesus were then fully released from the old Law covenant. They died to it. On that day of Pentecost there was also unmistakable evidence that the disciples of Jesus Christ had been exalted far above the Pharisees and other prominent religious leaders. Not the religious leaders of Judaism, but these disciples received God's spirit, enabling them to speak about "the magnificent things of God" in the native languages of people from widely scattered places. (Acts 2:5-11) What a marvelous manifestation this was of their having God's blessing and approval! The "Lazarus" class had indeed come into the favored situation by becoming the spiritual seed of the Greater Abraham, Jehovah. This was pictured as the "bosom position."--Compare John 1:18
As for the unrepentant Pharisees and other prominent religious leaders, they were dead to their former position of seeming favor. They were in "Hades." Remaining unrepentant, they were separated from the faithful disciples of Jesus as if by a "great chasm." This was a "chasm" of God's unchangeable, righteous judgment. Of this, we read in Scripture: "Your judicial decision is a vast watery deep."--Psalm 36:6
THE "RICH MAN'S" TORMENT
The "rich man" class was also tormented. How? By the fiery judgment messages of God being proclaimed by Jesus' disciples. Compare Revelation 14:10
That the religious leaders were tormented by the message proclaimed by Jesus' disciples there can be no question. They tried desperately to stop the proclamation. When the apostles of Jesus Christ made their defense before the Jewish supreme court composed of prominent religious men, the judges' felt deeply cut and were wanting to do away with them. (Acts 5:33) Later, the disciple Stephen's defense had a like tormenting effect upon the members of that court. "They felt cut to their hearts and began to gnash their teeth at him."--Acts 7:54
These religious leaders wanted the disciples of Jesus to come and 'cool their tongue.' They wanted the "Lazarus" class to leave the "bosom position" of God's favor and present his message in such a way as not to cause them discomfort. Similarly, they wanted the "Lazarus" class to water down God's message so as not to put their "five brothers," their religious allies, in a "place of torment." Yes, they did not want any of their associates to be tormented by judgment messages...
But, as indicated by Jesus' illustration, neither the "rich man" class nor his religious allies would be freed from the tormenting effects of the message proclaimed by the "Lazarus" class. The apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ refused to water down the message. They refused to stop teaching on the basis of Jesus' name. Their reply to the Jewish supreme court was: "We must obey God as ruler rather than men."--Acts 5:29
If the religious allies of the "rich man" wanted to escape that torment, they could do so. They had "Moses and the Prophets," that is, they had the inspired Holy Scriptures written by Moses and other ancient prophets. Not once did those inspired Scriptures point to any literal place of torment after death, but they did contain all that was necessary to identify Jesus as the promised Messiah or Christ. (Deuteronomy 18:15, 18, 19; 1 Peter 1:10, 11) Hence, if the "rich man" class and his "five brothers" had paid attention to "Moses and the Prophets," they would have accepted Jesus as the Messiah. That would have brought them in line for divine favor and shielded them from the tormenting effects of God's judgment message...
CHRISTENDOM SHOULD KNOW
There is little reason for Christendom's clergymen not to be familiar with this understanding of Jesus' parable. A leading Protestant commentary, The Interpreter's Bible, calls attention to a similar explanation. It points out that many interpreters believe Jesus' words to be "an allegorical appendix that presupposes the conflict between early Christianity and orthodox Judaism. The rich man and his brothers represent the unbelieving Jews. Jesus is made to assert that they have stubbornly refused to repent in spite of the obvious testimony to himself in Scripture and to predict that they will fail to be impressed by his resurrection. It is conceivable that Luke and his readers imposed some such interpretation on these verses."
In view of this, we can rightly ask: Why have Christendom's clergymen not at least acknowledged to their church people that this is a parable? Why do those who know that the Bible does not teach the immortality of the human soul continue to put a literal application on an obvious parable? Is this not dishonest? Are they not showing disregard for the Word of God, deliberately hiding the facts?