Quote by cyberfrogXIn fact, many atheists are almost phobic of anything religious. My girlfriend told me that even though she is not an atheist that dislikes god in anyway, she is afraid of talking to my about religion because she thinks such conversations could actually change her mind.

It seems to me that your girlfriend in not an atheist who is comepletely strong in her position on God and religion. I am what most people consider a "strong atheist." If you are completely secure in your belief discussion of contrasting ideas is perfectly fine. Some atheists are obviously more secure in their beliefs than others. Also your statement is a bit odd because you could say the same for the religious. Many fear anything scientific because it could change their minds about their faith. It's a two-way road.

Incidently atheists and scientists know that they can be wrong and continue to find evidence to support their position. They don't simply say that they are right without evidence. In contrast, religion says that it is right and any objection is heresy.

Quote: If atheists are tolerant of people believing in god, why do they try and shelter there children from it? If your kid does or doesn't believe in god shouldn't concern the parent as much as the health and well-being of the child. If everyone is suppose to be allowed their own opinion, then why do parents selfishly force their ideals onto their children... frantic atheists are no better than old-school Catholics in this light.

Quite possibly because they belive that religion has a detrimental effect on the life of their child. Personally I don't care what children believe. I have a feeling that they will grow up atheist anyway given the bad rap religion is getting nowadays.

While it is true that morals can be learned from religion you're making a fundamental error that atheists ALSO can be moral. Just because we don't believe in a God and the Bible doesn't mean that we can't be moral. Atheists can teach morals just as well at religion can and often better than religion. After all isn't religion the one that teaches you than homosexuality and abortion is bad? Most atheists are tolerant and let those decisions be up to the person concerned.

Quote: Science replaced the mundane explanations of the world.

Somehow I don't find something like the complexities of the universe to be mundane. I don't take black holes, stars, galaxies to be mundane and boring. Quite the opposite I find them to be quite exciting and interesting. Quantum physics is not mundane.

Quote: Scientifically, it would be wise to kill off the weaker strains and mutations of the human being. But if you look to your sense of right and wrong, most people would say it is wrong to take the life of ant human being just because of their negative genetic influence.

Religiously (from Christianity's view) you should kill all homosexuals cause they are gay. I think most people would think this is going a bit far. The new testament says you should kill Jews. From islamic fundamentalists views Israel should be burned to the ground.

And actually science doesn't believe you should kill them off. From evolution's point of view nature itself will "select" those that are able to survive and pass on their genes with no human involvement at all. Natural selection will dictate whose genes will pass and whose won't. There will be no moral dilemma about who will live and die. Also who is keeping those supposed weak people alive? You think God is mass-producing insulin for diabetics? You think God is making medical advances that extend lifespan? It is science that is producing those "mundane" miracles. (A science that is mostly atheist by the way.)

Quote: If you are to look at any argument for a theory that could produce a replacement for the idea of a god you would find that science, on the whole, has actually done more to prove the existence of God than to disprove it.

Quite improbable once you realize that all science begins with the assumption that there is no God or diety screwing with your experimental results.

Quote: Many of the events that are recorded in the bible have actually been proven to have happened. Even the flood happened... admittedly on a much smaller scale. Major points that favor God would be the extremely high improbability of evolution and the big bang without a least the assistance of a god.

This is quite incorrect as there is overwhelming observable evidence that points to evolution. The Big Bang on a smaller scale of evidence but still more evidence in favor of than against. Also see the above comment I made.

Your argument is false as well. What your thinking is that there evidence for a Flood so there must be evidence for a God. This is false because the evidence only shows that there was a flood. The cause of aforementioned flood was completely natural in all aspects and had no connection to divine interference. Also you're saying that the Bible is wrong. The Bible says that the flood COVERED the entire world. Since you're saying the flood did not cover the world then the Bible must have been wrong in that aspect. Yet the Bible is supposedly the word of God.

Quote: When Christianity swept into Rome, the people were amazed at the zeal that these Christians had and how they would so willingly die for their religion.

Let's not forget the equal zeal the Christians had during the Crusades when they were raping, pillaging, and razing whole ethnic groups that did not believe in their religion. Let's not forget the equal zeal Islamic fundamentalists have when they send their suicide bombers out. Let's not forget that even after Christianity became mainstream in the Roman empire there were still to the death fights between gladiators (most of whom were slaves) as well as vicious animals in the Roman Coliseum.

My point is that zealousness and extreme belief does not prove something to be true. Even if I were to believe completely that somehow I can make a perfect cube that is also spherical it would never happen. Belief does not imply fact.

Quote: Sure, the individual can exist without religion, but people on average want, and sometimes even need, to believe in something.

Yes and I believe in science and rational thinking.

Quote: As for anyone who has a problem with religion, remember this: God created spirituality, spirituality created religion. Religion doesn't corrupt people, people corrupt religion.

God also created Mankind, Mankind created slavery. Slavery doesn't corrupt people, people corrupt slavery. Does that make slavery any more moral and just? Probably not but then again I could be wrong.

And that's my two yen.

Quote by CyberDragoonIt seems to me that your girlfriend in not an atheist who is comepletely strong in her position on God and religion. I am what most people consider a "strong atheist." If you are completely secure in your belief discussion of contrasting ideas is perfectly fine. Some atheists are obviously more secure in their beliefs than others. Also your statement is a bit odd because you could say the same for the religious. Many fear anything scientific because it could change their minds about their faith. It's a two-way road.

yes, yes, you are correct.

Quote by CyberDragoonIncidently atheists and scientists know that they can be wrong and continue to find evidence to support their position. They don't simply say that they are right without evidence. In contrast, religion says that it is right and any objection is heresy.

If fact I have talked to many atheists that do believe science is right without any knowledge of the evidence.

Quote by CyberDragoonWhile it is true that morals can be learned from religion you're making a fundamental error that atheists ALSO can be moral. Just because we don't believe in a God and the Bible doesn't mean that we can't be moral. Atheists can teach morals just as well at religion can and often better than religion. After all isn't religion the one that teaches you than homosexuality and abortion is bad? Most atheists are tolerant and let those decisions be up to the person concerned.

I never said atheists couldn't be moral, please don't put words in my mouth that were never there. I'm just saying that some of the stories are great supplimental material no matter what religion you are.

Quote by CyberDragoonSomehow I don't find something like the complexities of the universe to be mundane. I don't take black holes, stars, galaxies to be mundane and boring. Quite the opposite I find them to be quite exciting and interesting. Quantum physics is not mundane.

I didn't mean boring, I simply meant physical and testable. A non-mundane topic might be, say.... morality. Sure, you can justify many choices with social science principles, but those principles can't justify the death or life of an individual.

Quote by CyberDragoonReligiously (from Christianity's view) you should kill all homosexuals cause they are gay. I think most people would think this is going a bit far. The new testament says you should kill Jews. From islamic fundamentalists views Israel should be burned to the ground.

And actually science doesn't believe you should kill them off. From evolution's point of view nature itself will "select" those that are able to survive and pass on their genes with no human involvement at all. Natural selection will dictate whose genes will pass and whose won't. There will be no moral dilemma about who will live and die. Also who is keeping those supposed weak people alive? You think God is mass-producing insulin for diabetics? You think God is making medical advances that extend lifespan? It is science that is producing those "mundane" miracles. (A science that is mostly atheist by the way.)

If you take a look at all the scriptures and compare the message and the tone, it simply preaches against those things that social science is starting to worry about today. Jesus was a jew, and I have never read anything in the new testament that says we should kill jews. The catholic parish I've always gone to has promoted tolerance of all sinners, since we are no different than them in most actions. A man lusting after a woman is committing the same sin as any homosexual, lust. Fundamentalists in any religion tend to be a problem in my point of view.

You are talking about Darwin evolution which has come under heavy criticism and is even proven to be mathematically impossible. Humans, with medical science, have almost eliminated natural selection in the more advanced countries. We are able to keep alive many genetically "weaker" individuals. Of course the hope is that one day we will find ways to cure these types of disorders.

Quote by CyberDragoonQuite improbable once you realize that all science begins with the assumption that there is no God or diety screwing with your experimental results.

That assumption is the incorrect one actually. I know far more scientists that believe in a god than don't. I, myself, am studying microbiology. Deists believe in god but say he doesn't influence anything. Science assumes that only nature is acting. It doesn't assume god doesn't exist.

Quote by CyberDragoonThis is quite incorrect as there is overwhelming observable evidence that points to evolution. The Big Bang on a smaller scale of evidence but still more evidence in favor of than against. Also see the above comment I made.

Your argument is false as well. What your thinking is that there evidence for a Flood so there must be evidence for a God. This is false because the evidence only shows that there was a flood. The cause of aforementioned flood was completely natural in all aspects and had no connection to divine interference. Also you're saying that the Bible is wrong. The Bible says that the flood COVERED the entire world. Since you're saying the flood did not cover the world then the Bible must have been wrong in that aspect. Yet the Bible is supposedly the word of God.

On evolution: http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/top.htm
On The Big Bang: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/bigbangredux.shtml

I happened to think that each of these events did happen, being an old-world, or progressive, creationist. I was pointing out that there is evidence for truth held in the bible, not specifically for a god... once again you're putting words in my mouth. Another mistake you seem to be making is assuming that I am a fundamentalist. Well, I'm not. The Bible says the flood covered the world. While the flood may not have covered all the land in the world, there was a world wide flood epidemic. Every major culture has a recorded giant flood, all of which have been traced to have happened around the same time. So, roughly speaking, there was a flood that covered the world. The bible is the word of god... written and retranslated over and over again by humans; it would be improbable for there to be absolutely no errors in it.

Quote by CyberDragoonLet's not forget the equal zeal the Christians had during the Crusades when they were raping, pillaging, and razing whole ethnic groups that did not believe in their religion. Let's not forget the equal zeal Islamic fundamentalists have when they send their suicide bombers out. Let's not forget that even after Christianity became mainstream in the Roman empire there were still to the death fights between gladiators (most of whom were slaves) as well as vicious animals in the Roman Coliseum.

My point is that zealousness and extreme belief does not prove something to be true. Even if I were to believe completely that somehow I can make a perfect cube that is also spherical it would never happen. Belief does not imply fact.

I was not implying that belief or zeal made something true, I was mearly citing an example of how a society as a whole desires a strong spiritual support system.

Quote by CyberDragoonGod also created Mankind, Mankind created slavery. Slavery doesn't corrupt people, people corrupt slavery. Does that make slavery any more moral and just? Probably not but then again I could be wrong.

Actually that is a very true statement. There is good slavery and bad slavery. The stuff in America was one of the bad examples. In the more ancient times, however, there were people who would work for others only for food and housing, the same bonuses that the America slaves received. The difference was in the way they were treated. So yes, if someone takes you in and feeds and clothes you on the basis that you work for them, that is moral slavery. Children who don't get paid allowances go through the same thing.

Wow...there are some serious theological discussions going on here. Well, amongst the religious bashing and such, of course; but I guess that's to be expected in a thread about religion, because that's always a controversial issue. So many people believe so differently...

Why are so many losing faith in or having no faith in God?
This is a very good question, cheza2283. I think one of the main reasons so many people are either losing their faith or not having it in the first place is society. Religions have long been painted as a "moral crutch," or something fictitional for those who are weak and need something to believe in. And of course, the reputation being set by some members of the Church don't help any; somethign people need to remember about that, though, is that all are humans, and humans are fallen creatures. We are sinful, and unfortunately that's where our tendencies lie.

If you look at the precedences being set in our society, or taught in our schools (at least, in the US), the lack of faith (or scorning of it) might make just a little more sense, though it's just as sad. In our schools, evolution and moral relativism are being taught as facts, not theories; in society, there are a plethora of people, movies, shows, or music that mock religion (and quite often Christianity). It is portrayed as uncool, or ridiculous; people aren't drawn to that kind of thing, especially when Christians are portrayed as radicals or weak-minded, naive in their beliefs. That's not an accurate view at all.

If you couldn't already tell, I personally believe in God; I believe Jesus is the risen Son of God; and I believe that He left the Holy Spirit in His place when He ascended to heaven. I believe that the Bible is the written Word of God, and that God cares for his creation. He has not abondoned us, nor will He, and that's that.

It's always interesting to see what arguments come up when "debating" religion versus science (though it often turns into more of a verbal bashing than logical discussion). People tend to let their emotions run away with them on this subject, and it shows.

One thing I've never understood about atheism is why it even exists; I mean, why form a religious following in and of itself to deny that there is a God? If there's nothing there to refute, then why form a mindset to oppose what isn't there in the first place? Maybe it's just me and my "limited" knowledge...but it really doesn't make sense to me.

I don't know how much sense my post made, but I've really gotta go start on my homework, so I'll check back in later; feel free to respectfully refute anything I say that you don't agree with. I'll defend my belief to the end, but I try to do so without outright insulting others because I don't think that's necessary. 'Bye for now~

I think that people lose their faith in God becasue the world has become a lot crueler, and its becoming harder and harder to find an explanation for why these things happen. For some people, the phrase "It was God's will" Just does not cut it anymore. Its also hard to believe that our whole life is planned out before it even begins. Another reason might be that science has disproved much of what the Bible claims. I have many friends who are Christian, and I respectfully keep all of my comments to myself. I, in truth, find it hard to believe that there is one all powerful being.
I do not believe in one God. I am a Wiccan, part of a religion that believes in many Gods AND Godesses. and I think that people have the right to believe in whatever they choose, if they have faith or not.
Respectfully, I do think that there has been a decline in faith. Here, I only voice my opinion, and apologize if I may have offended anyone.

only problem here... how do you know?
are you God?
That is why I don't believe in any forms of God, or gods or religion. "interpretations" always makes my head spin.

you can disregard my post as being idiocy. :rolleye09

but if you do answer it, try to make it sound like something I can convince myself to believe it, I know I sound like a fag, but the fact I aint going to heaven makes me relieved already, cause I know I don't have to be goody two shoes to step forth and say something.

WARNING! If you are strictly religios you MIGHT find this post offensive

I dont belive in god. and the jesus theorie doesent even work. if a boy was born during the winter,middle of the night in pelestina or whatever in one of those open stables we se in the pictures, he would have frozen to death and what did 3 herdes do out during the winter? On the night of palestinian winter the temparature if vary often below like -15c

i think no gods in any religion exists as described i belive that there is ONE greater power that created the world like vampyrlord said(created the big bang,the earth and so. How else could life start to grow and this lifeless rock?). He/she/it is not there for us to worship and dedicate our lifes to. I think that one of the few rules you have to live by is those 10 things from the bible whitch name i dont know. (you know like "you shall not kill")

hey well you know what Jesus wasn't born in the wintertime he was born in bethlahem, Jerusalem and he was born earlier, because when he was born a star showed his location. i dont' believe that in a half a day's span the three magi's could cross the nation to find a baby boy by following a star also since the field's of a shepherd are far out from cities where Mary and Joseph were, even though they were rejected of all Inns and Lodges. they were reduced to having a baby in a stable outback in a stack of hay leaving Jesus to be in a manger. it would have taken the shepherds a long time to get into the city and find Jesus dont' you think. so all this about jesus living in the cold of the night and shit whatever. it has been proven by prophecy that God is real? the prophets told of a Judgement that had already happened in Israel, the Holocaust and much more that occurred to the Jews earlier in the past. The prophets prophesized to the Jews not us so it would be reasonable that judgement had come. God's existence is proven by our intelligence and nature. i don't think i have ever seen a monkey during evoloution at a zoo. seriously nobody really looks like a former zebra or a cow. and if they had evolved that would mean back then a guy had sex with a cow which formed a close variety of him and then so on?

only problem here... how do you know?
are you God?
That is why I don't believe in any forms of God, or gods or religion. "interpretations" always makes my head spin.

you can disregard my post as being idiocy. :rolleye09

but if you do answer it, try to make it sound like something I can convince myself to believe it, I know I sound like a fag, but the fact I aint going to heaven makes me relieved already, cause I know I don't have to be goody two shoes to step forth and say something.

WARNING! If you are strictly religios you MIGHT find this post offensive

I dont belive in god. and the jesus theorie doesent even work. if a boy was born during the winter,middle of the night in pelestina or whatever in one of those open stables we se in the pictures, he would have frozen to death and what did 3 herdes do out during the winter? On the night of palestinian winter the temparature if vary often below like -15c

i think no gods in any religion exists as described i belive that there is ONE greater power that created the world like vampyrlord said(created the big bang,the earth and so. How else could life start to grow and this lifeless rock?). He/she/it is not there for us to worship and dedicate our lifes to. I think that one of the few rules you have to live by is those 10 things from the bible whitch name i dont know. (you know like "you shall not kill")

hey well you know what Jesus wasn't born in the wintertime he was born in bethlahem, Jerusalem and he was born earlier, because when he was born a star showed his location. i dont' believe that in a half a day's span the three magi's could cross the nation to find a baby boy by following a star also since the field's of a shepherd are far out from cities where Mary and Joseph were, even though they were rejected of all Inns and Lodges. they were reduced to having a baby in a stable outback in a stack of hay leaving Jesus to be in a manger. it would have taken the shepherds a long time to get into the city and find Jesus dont' you think. so all this about jesus living in the cold of the night and shit whatever. it has been proven by prophecy that God is real? the prophets told of a Judgement that had already happened in Israel, the Holocaust and much more that occurred to the Jews earlier in the past. The prophets prophesized to the Jews not us so it would be reasonable that judgement had come. God's existence is proven by our intelligence and nature. i don't think i have ever seen a monkey during evoloution at a zoo. seriously nobody really looks like a former zebra or a cow. and if they had evolved that would mean back then a guy had sex with a cow which formed a close variety of him and then so on?

Quote by Devildudeonly problem here... how do you know?
are you God?
That is why I don't believe in any forms of God, or gods or religion. "interpretations" always makes my head spin.

you can disregard my post as being idiocy. :rolleye09

but if you do answer it, try to make it sound like something I can convince myself to believe it, I know I sound like a fag, but the fact I aint going to heaven makes me relieved already, cause I know I don't have to be goody two shoes to step forth and say something.

WARNING! If you are strictly religios you MIGHT find this post offensive

I dont belive in god. and the jesus theorie doesent even work. if a boy was born during the winter,middle of the night in pelestina or whatever in one of those open stables we se in the pictures, he would have frozen to death and what did 3 herdes do out during the winter? On the night of palestinian winter the temparature if vary often below like -15c

Quote by ultimarebornhey well you know what Jesus wasn't born in the wintertime he was born in bethlahem, Jerusalem and he was born earlier, because when he was born a star showed his location. i dont' believe that in a half a day's span the three magi's could cross the nation to find a baby boy by following a star also since the field's of a shepherd are far out from cities where Mary and Joseph were, even though they were rejected of all Inns and Lodges. they were reduced to having a baby in a stable outback in a stack of hay leaving Jesus to be in a manger. it would have taken the shepherds a long time to get into the city and find Jesus dont' you think. so all this about jesus living in the cold of the night is crap (edited).

That was an interesting point, ultimareborn; I'd like to add a little your statement it, if you don't mind. Early Christians (I'm sorry, but I can't tell you when, exactly) moved the celebration of Jesus' birth to December, even though it was more than likely he wasn't born in the winter. They moved it to sort of counter the pagan holiday of Winter Solstice (I'm not sure if that's how its spelled, sorry); so while the pagans (unbelievers) celebrated their Solstice, the Christians celebrated the birth of their Savior.

As for the shepherds finding Jesus...well, they followed the directions that they recieved from a divine messenger who appeared to them to tell them the Messiah was being born. So it wouldn't really take all that long, since they knew where they were going, and what they were looking for.

I haven't lost my faith in God. I truly believe that there is a heaven and a hell for the afterlife. I also believe that Jesu died on the cross for our sins! My dad doesn't believe or understand the religion of being a Christian and my mom rarely goes to church, but I wold often pray that they would soon understand the Word and continue to increase their growth in the religious belief. The world might be ending soon, so I will need to try my best so that everybody would become a Christian as well. If you read in the bible, it will tell you more information and if you read Matthews, it tells you a little bit more about the end is near and the Day of Judgement is here. If you read Revalation, it would reveal or give you a hint of the future.

Well I wasnt there when GOD created the world but where you there too?I am not forcing anybody here to believe in christianity my main point here is You have all the time in the world heck you have what 70-100 years if possibly to live..then why not use some of that time to believe in GOD.You have nothing to lose I mean you can gain money and spend it afterwards but knowing that there is an ALMIGHTY FATHER out there that loves us and hates to see us suffer is PRICELESS its knowledge man.I know my religion has done alot of nasty things but as an INDIVIDUAL I will love GOD with all my heart^^ Im sorry on behalf of my religion if we offended you athiest's both physically and mentally^^GOD didnt do all those killings it was people's self righteousness who declared themselves holy and used GOD's name to frighten other people.If I had the knowledge to possibly create a TIME MACHINE id gladly go back and fix the wrong doing's of my religion but not all of us are evil there are really nice catholic's out there^^ I hope that even if we are in different religion's or no religion at all I hope we can still act like people and still be friend's^^

Quote by cyberfrogXIf fact I have talked to many atheists that do believe science is right without any knowledge of the evidence.

I agree they're just as bad as fundamentalists.

Quote: I never said atheists couldn't be moral, please don't put words in my mouth that were never there.

Sorry about that didn't mean to.

Quote: Jesus was a jew, and I have never read anything in the new testament that says we should kill jews.

Isaiah 1:4-5, "Woe to you sinful nation (of Jews), a people laden with iniquity, a wicked seed, ungracious children; they have forsaken the Lord; they have blasphemed the Holy One of Israel, they have gone away backwards. For what shall I smite you more, you that increase transgression..."

Titus 1:10-11 "For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group (the Jews). They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach and that for the sake of dishonest gain."

Revelation 2:9 "I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan." (Saying that Jews are nothing but a synagogue of Satan)

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 "For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last."

Just a few.

Quote: You are talking about Darwin evolution which has come under heavy criticism and is even proven to be mathematically impossible.

Yet it is the strongest explanation of how life changes and evolves over time. It explains why you inherit characteristics from your parents and load of stuff such as selective breeding in crops. It explains how bacteria can become immune to antibiotics. It explains why mosquitoes are becoming immune to DDT. Etc.

Quote: That assumption is the incorrect one actually. I know far more scientists that believe in a god than don't. I, myself, am studying microbiology. Deists believe in god but say he doesn't influence anything. Science assumes that only nature is acting. It doesn't assume god doesn't exist.

Read http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/atheism1.htm for more info. According to the study roughly a figure of 7% to 40% of scientists have a belief in God. Only 7% of the National Academy of Sciences believes in a God.

Right science does not assume the existence or non-existence of God. However, it believes that only natural rather than supernatural causes create observed phenomena and "does not accept supernatural explanations for such events."

Quote: I was pointing out that there is evidence for truth held in the bible, not specifically for a god... once again you're putting words in my mouth. Another mistake you seem to be making is assuming that I am a fundamentalist. Well, I'm not. The Bible says the flood covered the world.

Sorry again. I'm just saying that if the Bible has errors in some cases how do you know it does not have errors elsewhere? How do you know that the whole Bible ISN'T a big error.

Quote: I was not implying that belief or zeal made something true, I was mearly citing an example of how a society as a whole desires a strong spiritual support system.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. I think society just wants a strong moral system. You don't really need religion to be moral.

Quote: So yes, if someone takes you in and feeds and clothes you on the basis that you work for them, that is moral slavery. Children who don't get paid allowances go through the same thing.

That sounds like paid work to me. By slavery I mean enforced servitude. Those people who are taken in for food can leave and choose another "master" at any time they wish. Slaves can't. They are forced to work. Food is merely fuel so that they can work more.

Because, as science and technolgy advances, we fell we don't have the need to believe into "something", and have the idea of having our "destiny" (if such thing does exist...) withtin our very grasp and into total control.
God has become an useless entity as we feel we gain control over our lifes and enviroment. Besides, we don't like the idea of having someone to rule over us. We feel envious of that (or those) whoe are meant to rule. We want to vhange the rules and override what was really set to be.
Well. That's why I think. It's a matter of power and knowledge, but wisdon has been left behind.
What do you think?

I agree with 'SebastianvonKane' and those who said the same thing about feeling envious of being ruled by someone else.

If you check history and read different thesis books on different religions and science, (mostly are written by asian writers), you will find that the term "HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF" is what is going on here.
For example, people like to think of themselves as powerful as anything that there is! It is foolish of them and for that these people, or in general, civilizations parished in beautiful ways (funny but sad). You see, these people of the past did not learn that FAITH is importan. Nor do modern people. See the link here? History is repeating again.
Science deals with how to live on the physical world. FAITH helps you to live on by yourself, with yourself. NOW I AM NOT PREACHING HERE....JUST TELLING THE PHILOSOPHICAL ASPECT OF LIFE.
1) People ignore philosophy (love for wisdom that is, not some weird ideas in the head!) and that is why they fail to understand the importance of faith.
2) Recent research suggests that people in technologically advanced countries are more frustrated with themselves and others. This FACT was there hundreds of years ago and still exists today. THE MORE MATERIAL (technology but not knowledge) YOU HAVE THE MORE YOU WILL LOOSE YOUR OWN SELF IN THOSE THINGS! The result? You loose the 'human part' of you. One of those 'human part' is FAITH. We LOVE to have FAITH in our boyfriends, girlfriends, parents, and those who WE THINK CAN TRUST. BUT when it comes down to GOD, we put logic to decide whether HE should be of any concern.
3) If you ask someone, about 95% people will say, "I want to live a happy life." Well in reality, they really don't DO SOME SERIOUS DIG IN to find out what happiness is really about. Is it to have technologically advanced materials and possessions or is it innerself? This question most of us avoid, thus avoid the very basic fact that we need to have a happy life. That fact is FAITH.

It is complicated to just put it into words. But one thing is sure, check the history and you will find that HISTORY IS REPEATING ITSELF AGAIN! AND THIS REPETITION IS BAD...NOT a good one.

I cannot answer why other people think in a certain way, because I doubt I think like them, so I will speak for myself and myself only.

The first reason as to why I have no faith in a god or supreme being is because of the way I was raised. My father is a negative aetheist - he believes there is no god because there is no convincing evidence of the existence of one. My mother is a deist. I have been to a church service once in my life, and the only thing I remember about it is being incredibly bored. So, you could say I was brainwashed as a child to doubt the existence of a higher being - although, you can argue the same way for anyone who is religious.

Granted, though I was raised in a secular environment, that leaves me with the decision to make up my own mind. If I converted to Judaism today, for example, my parents would fully support the decision, because thats the kind of people they are. So, I must have a reason for having no faith. But I really don't. Its not that I disbelieve or believe, but that I don't care. Whether there is a god or not seems very unimportant to me. If I chose to believe, I would never give up my time to perform rituals of the chosen religion. My life would not change in a real sense, although I may "feel" different, I would not "be" different. There would also be the artificial feeling that I am believing for the sake of believing, which I think is just worthless.

I could chose to take the position of an aetheist, and staunchly disbelieve in a higher being. Not only could I not back that up (I would find it hard to prove a negative), I wouldn't want to. I guess I could be a deist like my mother, but that would force me to again believe in something I can't believe in, and that I don't care enough to put forth the effort into believing. This can also be applied every other religion. Agnosticism appeals to me, but I'm under the impression that they actively take a neutral stance - so maybe "apathatic agnostic" would be a good title for my beliefs.

Now, I've been told various things about me being punished for my lack of faith. This serves only to make me care less. I refuse to be moved by, what seems to me, cowardly threats or attempts to coerce me into kneeling to an intangible beings that may or may not even exist. This does not make sense to me, and I reject that as a reason to be religious.

So, basically what I'm saying is, I don't care. I can't bring myself to care, because I can't think of a reason to care. I do, however, care that I do not care, if you know what I mean, which is the entire reason why I wrote this post. I never thought extensively as to why I have no faith, I just pretty much understood that I didn't.

But, now I'm interested. Why do those who have faith, have faith? Is it because you were brought up that way? Did you convert later in life? A sudden revelation, maybe? Although I'd prefer a story that made sense to my brain as well as my heart, any reason would be fine.

EDIT: For spelling/grammar.

The reason why people are losing faith in God is because of the additude of people today. because many have the overall concept that it is God is an impersonal being and just doing good things is dependant on where or not you go to hell when you die. The Bible doesn't teach that (actually, hell has a different meaning than a firy place of torment). According to the Bible, God has a name and indeed has feelings (Psalms 83:18, Proverbs 27:11) (Which make sense, seeing as how God created us. The real question is, how can someone give you something that they don't have themselves. We as human beings have names and feelings, Isn't it reasonable to agree that God would have those things? after all, he created us). Another thing is, as Jesus predicted, many would say that they come in the name of God and mislead many (Matthew 24:4 & 5). The Bible accurately depicks also the additude for people toward Godly devotion (Titus 1:16). The way people act in an adverse way is the sign of the end times. (2
Timothy 3:1-5)

By the way they're called the Ten Commandments:
1. Dont worship false gods.
2. Dont take the name of the LORD your God in vain
3. Rest on the sabbath and keep ti holy
4. Respect your father and your mother
5. Do not murder.
6. Do not commit adultery
7. Do not steal.
8. Do not lie
9. Do not have lustful thoughts
10.Do not desire what others have

1.even these do not really work.
What are false gods? Christianity came later after Zeus, it is just a religion and like all religions claimed its supreme idols and icons, which is true, which is false? I laughed at this.

2.OMG!

3. Sorry, I got work to do at tesco's too busy

4. Nope, they divorced

5. Of course, against morals, not because it was against the rules of God. It is also against my conscience.

6. Kids get laid at 15 and have orgies at 18, the irony is everyone enjoys it.

7. define steal? Would companies stealing from each other profit margins through competitive marketing advantages and strategic plannings considered stealing?

8. Can't do that, truth hurts and nobody likes to hear it.

9. Right, chop off your penis, stuck a log up your vagina and you are well on your way, it is impossible, it is human nature.

10. Only through this desire can we compete for the same ground in society, without it, society becomes a slump.

I would imagine apathy would be the greatest contributor to the decline of the deeply religious.

Religion is hard to fit into modern ideologies, which are largely based on the concept "If I can touch it, see it, smell it, taste it, hear it (and in some cases, sense it) then it is real".

I do not believe in the existence of the Divine, but nor do I deny it. As a rational person (at least, I think so! You might have a different opinion) I cannot either deny or confirm without evidence to support either postion.

All that matters is what YOU believe. Have Faith.

In the first place, why believe in God? You can't lose faith if you had never believed in God. So that's my question to everyone, why do you believe in God? Is there a specific reason? Because you want to go to heaven after you die? Or maybe it's because somebody else influenced you, say, your parents. For example, ever since you were small your parents tell you, be good, or God will punish you. Something like that.

because everyone wants to be hard assed puckers, goths, satanists, whatever, and they think theyre cool because of what they are or do

The main reason that I lost my faith in god is that haveing the faith is completely worthless because it will never save you if you are in dire danger.

Quote by CyberDragoonIsaiah 1:4-5, "Woe to you sinful nation (of Jews), a people laden with iniquity, a wicked seed, ungracious children; they have forsaken the Lord; they have blasphemed the Holy One of Israel, they have gone away backwards. For what shall I smite you more, you that increase transgression..."

Titus 1:10-11 "For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group (the Jews). They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach and that for the sake of dishonest gain."

Revelation 2:9 "I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan." (Saying that Jews are nothing but a synagogue of Satan)

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 "For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last."

Just a few.

Ahh.. nice, I do believe god himself has taken care to punish the Jews if anyone did... as, of course, he did say that "Thou shalt not murder"

Quote: Yet it is the strongest explanation of how life changes and evolves over time. It explains why you inherit characteristics from your parents and load of stuff such as selective breeding in crops. It explains how bacteria can become immune to antibiotics. It explains why mosquitoes are becoming immune to DDT. Etc.

Even the word "strongest" is a subjective one when used in an argument. Like I said, I do believe that evolution happened. The lack of any transitory fossils and the mathematical impossibility of it, however, have convinced me to believe that it had some help along the way. Only micro-evolution has been scientifically proven to work without outside influence, macro-evolution is what happens to be encountering all the trouble.

Quote: Read http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/atheism1.htm for more info. According to the study roughly a figure of 7% to 40% of scientists have a belief in God. Only 7% of the National Academy of Sciences believes in a God.

Right science does not assume the existence or non-existence of God. However, it believes that only natural rather than supernatural causes create observed phenomena and "does not accept supernatural explanations for such events."

And scientists, working with science, are only trying to work with natural causes. It would be completely out of order for them to try a supernatural approach because its is not their job to do that.

Quote: I'm just saying that if the Bible has errors in some cases how do you know it does not have errors elsewhere? How do you know that the whole Bible ISN'T a big error.

Personally, most of it's teachings are quite useful and if more widely (and correctly) executed, would promote a better society. But seeing as it has been in human hands for 2000 years, I know there are some error in interpretation because my brother learned Latin and Greek and said there are many concepts and ideas in the original text languages that can't be efficiently explained without knowledge of the languages.

Quote: I wouldn't be so sure of that. I think society just wants a strong moral system. You don't really need religion to be moral.

I didn't say they needed religion, I said a spiritual support system, I am sorry if they sound the same. China is an atheistic country and it still promotes a strong spiritual support system so that its people have a sense of direction and purpose. Their moral philosophy serves as a major part in that and it is considered a spiritual structure.

Quote: That sounds like paid work to me. By slavery I mean enforced servitude. Those people who are taken in for food can leave and choose another "master" at any time they wish. Slaves can't. They are forced to work. Food is merely fuel so that they can work more.

Enforced servitude is a specific kind of slavery... the kind we preferred in America. I was merely providing a good example of a normally bad thing... as you asked me to do I believe.

merged: 06-01-2006 ~ 11:17am

Quote by royaldarknessIn the first place, why believe in God? You can't lose faith if you had never believed in God. So that's my question to everyone, why do you believe in God? Is there a specific reason? Because you want to go to heaven after you die? Or maybe it's because somebody else influenced you, say, your parents. For example, ever since you were small your parents tell you, be good, or God will punish you. Something like that.

I believe in god because, after a long time of consideration, it makes perfect sence.

Well in my belife god is a way to explain things to people, and to comfort them, also to make them feel that they will have immortality( heaven) , people are afraid of the unkown but now that more and more can be explained people are not beliving in god, also to add, people are realizing that the closed minded though proccess in religon( not all the religions) excludes people for no good reason, such as gays, and at one time blacks, and cripples and so forth.

I do believe that there's heaven and hell and God. But I'm Buddhist so I believe in a different Gods/Goddess. I pray because I want to have something I can put my faith in. When I look at other religion, I'm get sorta sad when they say that other religions are no right, or "they are the devils religion." I think that people should believe in what they want to believe, but no one should question it. But I do agree with Shinsengumi89 on one part. Excuding people.

I do think that the Bible is made by humans, not God. The only things I could agree on in it is that people should not kill, have lust, pride, or hatred in them. But the Bible has things about hating Jews, gays, cripples, and also women.

I heard stories that the Crusades were "heros" because they kill Jews, and killing is a sin. The Bible also points out that EVERYONE is a sinner at one point in life. And the money thing, along time ago the church told people if they put money in this box in the church, God will get them into heaven. And one time this woman who was brilliant in math, she got her breast cut off, lets not forget Joan of Arc who was burn to death because she was able to communicate with God.

I believe that there is a different God and he/or maybe she, is not what men say.

Its television. U watch television, and when u look at just 1 music clip, the only thing u get is porn, porn and more porn. When u look at this, u will think "Hey, fuck this is sweet, i'm gonna watch more". Ur brain will be brainwashed. Instead of living ur life with religion, u start living ur life the way u saw it on the telly....

Sorry to jump in on the continuing dialogue between you and cyberfrogX, CyberDragoon; I've been following your posts, and wanted to make a few comments of my own.

Quote by CyberDragoonIsaiah 1:4-5, "Woe to you sinful nation (of Jews), a people laden with iniquity, a wicked seed, ungracious children; they have forsaken the Lord; they have blasphemed the Holy One of Israel, they have gone away backwards. For what shall I smite you more, you that increase transgression..."

Old Testament quote, found the description of Isaiah's vision. He is speaking the Lord's words, and He (God) is very frustrated with His Chosen people, the Jews. They keep turning away from Him and prostrating themselves before useless idols, no more than pieces of wood carved by a man's hand. He saves them repetitively, but they always leave him. This isn't really telling people to kill the Jews. Just out of curiosity, what translation are you quoting from?

Quote: Titus 1:10-11 "For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group (the Jews). They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach and that for the sake of dishonest gain."

This doesn't apply to all Jews, just those who are teaching incorrect theologies in order to somehow help themselves.

Quote: Revelation 2:9 "I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan." (Saying that Jews are nothing but a synagogue of Satan)

Ah, Revelation; one of my favorite books! I believe, though, that this quote is being misused. When John says "a synogogue of Satan," again he's not talking about all Jews. He's talking more about those who proclaimed religiousity, who made a big show of how righteous they really were, but in their hearts were not following God. If one isn't following God, by default he is following the prince of this world, Satan. Therefore, by not following God while keeping up the fa����§ade of a priest or Jewish official, they would qualify to be accused of following Satan.

Quote: 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 "For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last."

This mentions the wrath of God, not instructing others to kill Jews. They are still His Chosen people, but they reject Him when they reject His Son, Jesus, as the Christ prophesied in their Scriptures. He gives a very brief overview of history, mentioning how it was Jews who killed the Christ, and in the Old Testament how the very prophets bearing God's words were also killed by them because they did not wish to hear the message.

Quote: Yet [Darwinian evolution] it is the strongest explanation of how life changes and evolves over time. It explains why you inherit characteristics from your parents and load of stuff such as selective breeding in crops. It explains how bacteria can become immune to antibiotics. It explains why mosquitoes are becoming immune to DDT. Etc..

Actually, I think adaptation is even more accurate in describing that scientifical process. It's not evolution, really; over time, a person grows used to his surroundings and what it takes to survive in them. The same applies to other species, and even bacteria.

Quote: Sorry again. I'm just saying that if the Bible has errors in some cases how do you know it does not have errors elsewhere? How do you know that the whole Bible ISN'T a big error.

How do you know it really holds errors? Just because you don't believe soemthing doens't mean it's an error.

Quote:

Quote by cyberfrogXI was not implying that belief or zeal made something true, I was mearly citing an example of how a society as a whole desires a strong spiritual support system.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. I think society just wants a strong moral system. You don't really need religion to be moral.

Question: if society needs a strong moral system, but without the religion behind it, where do the moral come from? Who gets the priviledge of declaring what is right and wrong, and why do they qualify for that job? What happen when two people have conflicting views on the right or wrong in their situation? If there's no God, there are no absolutes; if there are no absolutes, there is no morality; and if there is no morality...well, the result is chaos. It all finds its root back in God.

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Quote by weissdarkangelI do think that the Bible is made by humans, not God. The only things I could agree on in it is that people should not kill, have lust, pride, or hatred in them. But the Bible has things about hating Jews, gays, cripples, and also women.

Would you mind providing some references to back this up? And thank you

Quote: I heard stories that the Crusades were "heros" because they kill Jews, and killing is a sin.

Actually, it was more killing the Muslims that the Crusaders were called heroes for killing. The Crusades is a definite low point in Christian history; many atrocities were committed, all in the name of God and "His" will. But in reality, it was greedy, power-hungry men that caused (and encouraged) the Crusades.

Quote: The Bible also points out that EVERYONE is a sinner at one point in life.

That's true; the Bible says that everyone is a sinner, because no one is perfect. Humans are fallen creatures, tainted by sin ever since the Garden of Eden.

Quote: And the money thing, along time ago the church told people if they put money in this box in the church, God will get them into heaven.

Ah yes, the "pay your way to Heaven" approach. Sadly enough, some people still believe this. Again, it wasn't God behind this movement; it was corrupted men, men who claimed to be representing God. The Church became greedy, wanting more and more while feeding off those who were ignorant to the real truth (assuming you're talking about medieval times when the common folk weren't allowed to read the Bible for themselves).

Quote: And one time this woman who was brilliant in math, she got her breast cut off, lets not forget Joan of Arc who was burn to death because she was able to communicate with God. .

Joan of Arc...the people were afraid. They didn't know if she really had heard God or not...I'd be pretty freaked out, too, in all reality.

Quote: I believe that there is a different God and he/or maybe she, is not what men say.

So if God isn't what man says He is, what is He? Can you describe him? Because if he's not what man says, then not even you can describe him, and if that's the case, how does one know that there is a god at all? I'm not trying to be rude or offensive, but I'm trying to understand...

Personally, I believe what God says about Himself. He is Love. He is Abba, the Father. He is Mercy, Justice, and Grace. He is righteous and without sin. He is the beginning and the end. He is omnipotent, and omniscient. And that's only a few of the many mentioned.