Tadaima.

Before I begin, I would like to apologize in advance for the length of this post. While I understand that most forumgoers have the attention span of a packrat (ooh, shiny!), this post addresses issues of concern to all who post in these forums, and therefore I humbly ask all to read and consider the points expressed within.

PROLOGUE

Disdain and disillusionment drove me away from the Minitokyo forums, but concern and curiosity drove me to return. While I make a point to visit the community at least twice each day, it has been months since I was last active (at least in any real sense of the word) in the public forums.

Many things are certainly different. For example, an entirely new generation of forumgoers appears to have matriculated, as I can no longer claim to recognize the majority of usernames dotting forum threads, for better or worse. Likewise I can assume that most of the denizens of the forums do not recognize me, so by way of brief introduction, I will note simply that there was a time when these forums were solely under my jurisdiction.

Many things are certainly the same. Since my involvement with the forums began some twenty-one months ago, the level of discourse on the forum has remained appallingly low, even given the efforts made by dedicated members such as myself and Celessa.

AN ABORTED PROJECT

Some may remember a novel proposal submitted a year and a half ago for a working paper to study the demographics of the virtual community. It was hoped that a better understanding of the community would foster more effective structural change that would lead to continued improvement of the community.

It is a real pity that the project never really got off the ground, because I believe the results would have been very elucidating. Then again, I have a feeling that the conclusions would have simply mirrored my cynical observations of our community.

Some may wonder what observations these might be, and so I will note them below.

OBSERVATIONS

First, I find that most forumgoers share a number of attributes. They are ignorant, shallow, and puerile. Some are uncouth in speach. Many are alarmingly deficient in their grasp of basic grammar and spelling. Chief among their shortcomings, however, are their laziness and self-centeredness.

Members of the community are so eager to make their opinions heard that they are too lazy to read through the rules governing the community (which, incidentially, I was instrumental in the drafting of) when they first join. They are too lazy to search for existing threads to participate in, and when in a thread, they are too lazy to read past the first post before setting down their all-important opinion upon metaphorical paper. Threads, however, are intended as discussions but instead they tend to degenerate into disconnected statements of opinion which are useless to the community as a whole.

Of course, not all members of the forum are guilty of the above faults, and not all threads are worthless strings of characters that just take up space on our servers. Some threads are in fact extremely clever or informative and lead to very worthwhile exchanges. As such, the first post in a thread not only sets the topic, but also the nominal level of discourse.

As a means of improving the forums, the above two observations were used to derive the original Guidelines for Forum Participation. Unfortunately, the community decided to accept the letter but not the spirit of the law, eroding the guidelines until it was pointless to continue attempting to enforce them.

For the most part, threads lack originality, and good thread topics require originality. History has shown that, thread topics are cyclical in nature. Most threads that appear to be active today were discussed already in some form at least once before in the past, a aspect of the aforementioned generational turnover. Some members make attempts at being original in their topics, but unfortunately originality cannot be taught. Simply dreaming up a question that nobody else has asked before is not being original. For example, I don't think anyone has yet made a thread comparing a bowling ball to a plate of sashimi, but that is not really a creative thread. A good thread is one that poses a question that is, inter alia, carefully considered and intelligent, or one the likes of which has never been seen before.

Perhaps nothing illustrates the downwards spiral of the forums more clearly than the high turnover rate. The life cycle of an average forumgoer has three phases. Our larval forumgoer is a wide-eyed wanderer of the forums, dabbling in various topics as he familiarizes himself with the community. Our established forumgoer has made a name for himself in some circles and spends hours idling around engaging in frivolous topics. Our senior forumgoers are ones who subconciously begin to recognize the flaws in the community and who find the content and form of forum topics introduced by the young whippersnappers to be lacking. Disillusioned, they move on, and the cycle continues.

ACTION OR INACTION

One part of me pains to see so many members come and go, to see so relentless a display of superficial and banal discourse. This part of me wishes very much for there to be some stringently-enforced guidelines in order to govern conduct in the forums; while this will certainly drive away many, particularly the ignorant and the immature, it should raise the bar of discussion and therefore both enhance the experience of participating in true discussions in the forum and stem the tide of members leaving the community.

Another part of me subscribes to a more democratic approach. Clearly if people participate in certain activities, it is because that is their desire and their right, and therefore if their actions lead to the deterioration of their condition and their eventual disillusionment with the reality they have helped to create, they only have themselves to blame. In such a conception, forumgoers should be free to do as they please, and forum moderation should be concerned with only closing discussions that are discriminatory or harassing in nature or which violate established international statutes and regulations.

It is my background as a student and an appreciator of order which drives me to the former but my background as a moderator who lost countless hours and suffered countless headaches working to improve the community (but to no apparent effect) that drives me to the second. As such, I am entirely torn.

My thoughts having been enumerated, I turn now to you, my fellow members of this community. Do my observations mesh with your own? What path do you think is best for Minitokyo to take?

Those of you who have made it to the end, please congratulate yourselves. You are the few and the proud for whom my harsh words above do not describe.

I visit the site every now and then myself, and I have also noticed the amendments in the conducts and ignorances of some members, so I must agree that my observations mesh with yours. Just the other day, as I was browsing the index, I saw at least 3 closed threads at once that regarded illegal downloads, duplicates, and now even off-topic posts. It appears that most of the members who used to participate diligently in the forums seeked refuge elsewhere on the site which has been why the level of discussion in the forums has been relatively basic. Though we may occasionally find a good thread for participation, the majority of threads are rather useless to post in.

I was once a dedicated member to this site too. When I combed the forums about a year ago, searching for duplicate threads was a breeze as only the ID number of the thread was required. Now, a whole string which has been appendaged after that ID number makes searching for duplicates more difficult. I would find it rather easy to believe that this was a turn-off for those who once searched the forums for threads that were redundant. In short, I'm saying it is more difficult in our current day to actually organize things on the board (at least that's my opinion about the situation).

I see another note from you stating that forumgoers should be able to do as they please. On another board that I know, members constantly participate knowing they could get away with anything they say. The only way they would not get away is if they are reported for committing a certain act against another member, such as harassment and racial profiling. A free forum would indeed enable the forums for bustling activity but at the same time there is no guarantee that the forums would ever diligently, intelligibly, and respectfully be the same as they were one year ago.

Despite the aforementioned, I think that with a constantly growing community that endears both home and international people, endeavoring to settle things here on the board as we have basically described seems to be not impossible but not probable. As everything stands, the situation is beyond repair as we have taken numerous constraints into consideration. I believe that we have tried much too hard making the community better despite that the community has been relatively underprepared since the start due to the lack of guidelines. Here is a lesson in all of this: never start a forum without the necessary guidelines for stability.

By the way, I read your rather elongated post in 6 minutes.

no way lol

In all seriousness you hit a lot of the things that have, for the most part, driven me away from the forums myself. I was rather tired of the same tired old subjects being brought back from the dead every full moon or so. Favorites threads on here are like the plague and are never condusive to anything more than short-witted and sometimes unintelligible comments. I myself have tried before to post threads that would at least prove to be thought provoking, only to be virtually molested by ignorance only minutes later.

Here is the way I look at it all though. Rarely have I ever been to a forum that is interesting enough to actually read through the material and give an educated response. The majority of the forumgoers are, for lack of a better term, morons. So maybe in reality the forums are their domain while I just tread in them attempting to make change for what I consider to be the better.

It's not as if just these forums look like a monkey typing responses on a keyboard, they pretty much all have that same feel to them. You can go to political website forums, say something insightful and be met with 'douchebag' only a post later. I pretty much look at it this way; you can't go to a slow learning class in school and discuss calculus can you?

While I would love to see changes in our virtual world, I just don't see it happening. I would love to come on here, have a meaningful discussion, even if not on a meaningful topic. It is for that reason, like you, that I have virtually vacated the forums. But the way I look at it, the forums are a form of people escaping into their own reality and having fun in their own way behind the guise of their screenames. While this is leads to my disillusionment, that's just the way it is.

Clearly my thoughts weren't so eloquent as your's were, but even when I try spit those words out I come up short. Must defeat inner southerner.

I'm glad that I'm not the only person to see the pointless-ness in the forums lately. There are so many forums being posted, that in all fairness shouldn't be posted. Forums like; 'How to get a boyfriend/girlfriend', 'How do I know that he/she likes me', and many others. Those posts shouldn't even be posted; others can't really help with those questions, only the one asking them can answer them.

Shinsengumi, I fully understand what you said, and I agree with all of it. The forums, when I first joined, were interesting to read and fun (for lack of a better word) to participate in. But now...most of them aren't worth the time to read; nor the effort to participate in.

Also, SilentMasamune and shoujoboy posted good points too. They've already said what I wanted too, so I'm not going to repeat what's already been said. But, the forums have went downhill in a sense, and will probably get worse as time goes by.

I always find it funny when you find a informative or thought provoking thread started, it is often one with the fewest posts in it. Where as the one's created about "Who's your favorite Care Bear" or whatever get massive amounts of one word comments on them. I'm noticing a similar trend when you look at our art gallery, amongst all these shallow threads being created there are massive amounts of what we call "low-effort" wallpapers being submitted as well(seems everyone is an artist now a days.) I'm wondering myself, what is Minitokyo exactly? Is it an art community or is it a anime community? I think we are closely approaching the latter, which is attracting a different type of denizen to our fair halls. It's a shift I don't think we can go back on, or atleast I am unable to see how we could go back on. Anime itself I believe attracts a younger less mature crowd, and where Minitokyo may have started off as a Anime Art community it is quickly shifting towards just being just an anime community.

I too was driven away from the forums because of the blatant ignorance of some members. If there were a way to imprint the forum guidelines on each members brain I think the forums would be a lot less cluttered. I've reported a number of bumped threads from 30+ weeks where the "bumper" just poster a 1-3 word response that didn't really add anything new to the discussion. I also think that for discussion threads, it would be nice if posters would read some of the previous posts so that the discussion has some cohesiveness... I've noticed on some threads that the same thing will be said by three different people one after the other or that the discussion will go off on some kind of tangent.

In my search for some threads of substance that I actually knew something about (or had some opinion on... Sadly I am completely lost of most political threads... ) I was led to the Science and Religion part of the forum. Where I had hoped to find some interesting threads debating evolution, all I found were threads with the same two posters aguing back and forth and not even taking into account posts made by other members. Or personal attacks on members. While this is probably something that is more on an individual level, it does not foster a good discussion.

As communities grow one can expect things to go downhill... Taking this into account, (with my desire for the forum to still be a place for discussion) I would side with your suggestion of a strict enforcer for the forum. When there is no order the forums will eventually just become a joke. (I've seen a forum that has the "free for all" approach and it's NOT pretty...)

Just like to start by saying Shin that red text really bothered my eyes for some reason when I read your post the first time. Okay with that said on to more pressing issues.

I've noted this since theend of MT2. MT is on a downward spiral that doesn't seem to have any sort of solution. It's like a slowly sinking ship. You can jump keep dumping out the water, but no matter how much effort you put in the same result will occur. Your going to sink.

The forums have been sinking for some time now. Favorites and versus threads plague it's very existance. Why? Because they are quick to create and get posts fast. Which leads to another point that bothers me ever so much which many of you have already mentioned. People have become lazy. They don't read others posts. They just make a quick reply and move onto the next thread.

I have yet to see a thread that maintains a full discussion with every post. They are always plagued by that dreaded one word post or that totally unrelated little blurb that the member just felt like putting.
We make rules but it really is futile. What's the good in making rules if no one is going to take the time to read them. If a large number of members don't bother to read what others have to say then what chance do we (the staff) have in informing them of the rules.

Fighting an issue Fireflywishes brought up. I don't go in the City Hall or Religion and Science sections anymore. Why? quite frankly there is too much flaming going on. No matter how many times we say "If you can't be civil towards one another please don't post."

It's as if they feel they can do whatever they please in the forums really. That rules don't apply to them. Case in point the number of members posting and requesting sites to download copyrighted material. This just proves that alot of members don't bother to read the rules. Added to the fact that alot of newer members seem to not bother to look for info themselves and just make threads asking the same thing many have asked over and over again before.

To be frank I don't see any sort of solutions to these problems. Only quick fixes. I do agree on the fact that the forums need to be stricter. However we lack the actually force to implement something like that. Even with all the mods we have right now. This problem extends far beyond something we can handle alone. Do we need more mods? That's a possibility unfortunately few members actually show enough maturity to even make it to elite status much less moderator. Harsh yes I know but as you all know it's a sad fact we all have faced. A fact which have driven many away, many of the older members are now gone or are rarely active.

Quote by shoujoboyHere is the way I look at it all though. Rarely have I ever been to a forum that is interesting enough to actually read through the material and give an educated response. The majority of the forumgoers are, for lack of a better term, morons. So maybe in reality the forums are their domain while I just tread in them attempting to make change for what I consider to be the better.

More than likely, any of these endeavored fabrications will go unnoticed. Though I was never a moderator, I tried my best to see if and how I could change the forums for better, and it worked at one point. That's when I was proud to frequent Minitokyo because I felt that a difference was being made despite the few people who helped out throughout the community. Not to mention there was a level system that rather caused most members to become addicted because they would be able to check on their progress every time. Not every site has a level system, so it was indeed a very unique implementation. Now it seems hopeless as previously mentioned.

Up to about a year ago before Minitoyko transitioned into version 3, due to diligent members and quite a remarkable staff, Minitokyo was a wonderful place. After the transition into version 3, new features were instated that drove members away such as the highlighted items list. Not even administration itself is around very much to observe these changes and even the constantly complaining members about these new features that never really existed on Minitokyo version 2. There had to be at least 25 threads altogether that questioned why certain features were instated or terminated, and this was hardly the case in the past.

On another note, the blatant lack of instantaneous availability of the guidelines and policy enabled the forum to become even more disorganized. On most sites they usually enforce the rules before ever attracting the members, as if they want to weed out those who wouldn't immediately cooperate. Then in some other way the board could become popular. Perhaps the reason why Minitokyo had so many participants in the forum was because they thought they could say anything at first, for it was underprepared. After the guidelines were established later, members who wanted good discussion throughout the board remained while there were others who participated in the anime forum.

Well, believe it or not I actually spend more time in the forum than in the gallery nowadays simply by moving threads from one place to another ! I'm sometimes shocked to see that some people can't even make a thread in the right place, let alone write some wholesome first post to engage people in some form of discussion. The number of "Would you do this__" and "Would you do this something else___" threads are redundant and sometimes I can't tell the difference between the two. And those are the types of threads (asking a straight out question that can be answered yes or no) are the ones generating shorter replies.

I have mentioned this a few times, but there are more and more threads popping up and all over the place containing mature content or at least has overtones of something not PG-13. Is this possibly because of changed interests nowadays? What people think is popular to talk about? What generates curiosity? Or have social levels decreased?

I don't have many solutions as such, but I guess it could be worth a try speaking out how I feel.

The moderation in the forums have to be strict.
Zero tolerance on illegal downloads, the 5th dupe in a week and anything that contains too much mature content.
It might even be extreme, but a lot of "Love, Friends and Family" threads do not even warrant a discussion, such as "Would you marry a tall guy?" (simple yes/no reply post)- and maybe all of these will be moved into the Chat Lounge regardless of forum category. It may or may not work, but once these people realise that posting in the Chat Lounge may be fun and spammy, it doesn't do their credit balance any good. And it'll be fairly easy to catch all the spammers in the one spot instead of finding these useless threads all over the place and having to hunt them down.

I think that in Mt2 with the less broader range of forum categories, it was very easy to move a "Would you marry a tall guy" thread to the (previously called) Spam forum. With Mt3, there are more categories, and I think this is why spam threadders despite category are getting away with poor quality threads under supposedly engaging forums.

My other idea in the back of my head is to change the "how to create a thread" system. When you click on NEW THREAD, you are immediately faced with a friendly looking box where you can type anything to your heart's content. Why not complicate things?

If people can submit artwork, then people can surely manage~ I'd suggest having a page like the submit an artwork page- well, 3 pages. The first page you'll be faced with the search box. Doesn't matter if there's already a search function, I think the search box should turn up when you create a new thread.
The page should say something like "You would like to create a thred. Please read *link to FAQ/Policy* before creating any threads to prevent yourself from violating any rules.
"Please use the search box below to search for any duplicates of the thread you want to create."

If no items are put into the search box, you can't move onto the next page.
If it's then successful, you will move onto the next part: typing up the post itself.
The third page should hopefully be a confirmation page.
"Your thread titled "Academic blunders continued..." is in the category Webdev - is this correct?"
Well no, so you'll have to move it into the School/Work forum.

I don't know how possible this can be, and it might drive some people totally nuts... but I don't know if it's me-- why are some people so willing to type up long gallery descriptions and prepared to wait for each uploading step when the forum lets members simply type it up and go? To me, the forum and the gallery are very similar places and hold the same rules... if so, then I think forum posters should also be willing to go through a step by step process of creating a thread.

If that works... just, just maybe a few good threads will be made. If we say that about 10% of people can't handle the step by step process or task of searching before creating a thread, then that's 10% of bad threads eliminated before they even happen.

It may or not work.

Then there's also the idea of approving a thread before it even appears on the page. This would probably cause a lot of problems because members will submit again and again thinking it's a bug or lag in the system. I doubt moderators would want more work already- but that's something they do over at animeforums.com for reviews. I guess this is not a solution... maybe it might prop up a few other brainwaves, hopefully.

As for reading the first post... well, this is a hard call and I can't think of anything. Nobody reads the gallery description and they only look at the artwork- nobody reads the first post and they only look at the title. This is a problem that'll go on.

EDIT:

There was the idea of highlighted threads by ... can't remember who... sorry
I think it'd be a good idea to remove the "most recent threads" on the front and have (up to) 10ish highlighted threads- or just the 5 on the front.
Then there'll be the option of "Recent threads" or "More highlighted threads"

The first thing you see on Mt- highlighted threads. You'd click on those no matter what and then go hunt for more threads afterwards.
It worked for the gallery before the top faved submissions returned on the front of the page- so I think it might possibly work for the forums too.

And possibly those who create better threads will gain more incentive.

Admirable talent in observation and evaluation you have there Shin... To tell you the truth few can decipher or would not be bothered with the things you have to say sadly...although the meaning and purpose of your message is one that one could say is of great importance...

I sincerely hoped that members would take time to read these threads which are of value but sadly hope is all i could lay a hold on...that is why..I guess i will help the little that i could by just breaking out the main concern of your Observation
to all those who would have read around the lines only...

Quote by shinsengumiMembers of the community are so eager to make their opinions heard that they are too lazy to read through the rules governing the community (which, incidentially, I was instrumental in the drafting of) when they first join. They are too lazy to search for existing threads to participate in, and when in a thread, they are too lazy to read past the first post before setting down their all-important opinion upon metaphorical paper. Threads, however, are intended as discussions but instead they tend to degenerate into disconnected statements of opinion which are useless to the community as a whole.

Of course, not all members of the forum are guilty of the above faults, and not all threads are worthless strings of characters that just take up space on our servers. Some threads are in fact extremely clever or informative and lead to very worthwhile exchanges. As such, the first post in a thread not only sets the topic, but also the nominal level of discourse.

Sadly we the members of minitokyo take our freedom of speech for granted and make threads that are of little concern thus having comments that are useless and not worthwhile,that would only spark undesirable post that comes later..This way the reason of having threads has been forsaken...

Quote by shinsengumi
As a means of improving the forums, the above two observations were used to derive the original Guidelines for Forum Participation. Unfortunately, the community decided to accept the letter but not the spirit of the law, eroding the guidelines until it was pointless to continue attempting to enforce them.

For the most part, threads lack originality, and good thread topics require originality. History has shown that, thread topics are cyclical in nature. Most threads that appear to be active today were discussed already in some form at least once before in the past, a aspect of the aforementioned generational turnover. Some members make attempts at being original in their topics, but unfortunately originality cannot be taught. Simply dreaming up a question that nobody else has asked before is not being original. For example, I don't think anyone has yet made a thread comparing a bowling ball to a plate of sashimi, but that is not really a creative thread. A good thread is one that poses a question that is, inter alia, carefully considered and intelligent, or one the likes of which has never been seen before

Perhaps nothing illustrates the downwards spiral of the forums more clearly than the high turnover rate. The life cycle of an average forumgoer has three phases. Our larval forumgoer is a wide-eyed wanderer of the forums, dabbling in various topics as he familiarizes himself with the community. Our established forumgoer has made a name for himself in some circles and spends hours idling around engaging in frivolous topics. Our senior forumgoers are ones who subconciously begin to recognize the flaws in the community and who find the content and form of forum topics introduced by the young whippersnappers to be lacking. Disillusioned, they move on, and the cycle continues

the threads that are of nowadays have little creavity and basically no originality.. Threads post may not be posted before but sadly irelevant and not condusive for the community nowadays..posters are only interested in posting but not thought of the Spirit of the thread that is intended...

Quote by shinsengumi
ACTION OR INACTION

One part of me pains to see so many members come and go, to see so relentless a display of superficial and banal discourse. This part of me wishes very much for there to be some stringently-enforced guidelines in order to govern conduct in the forums; while this will certainly drive away many, particularly the ignorant and the immature, it should raise the bar of discussion and therefore both enhance the experience of participating in true discussions in the forum and stem the tide of members leaving the community.

Another part of me subscribes to a more democratic approach. Clearly if people participate in certain activities, it is because that is their desire and their right, and therefore if their actions lead to the deterioration of their condition and their eventual disillusionment with the reality they have helped to create, they only have themselves to blame. In such a conception, forumgoers should be free to do as they please, and forum moderation should be concerned with only closing discussions that are discriminatory or harassing in nature or which violate established international statutes and regulations.

It is my background as a student and an appreciator of order which drives me to the former but my background as a moderator who lost countless hours and suffered countless headaches working to improve the community (but to no apparent effect) that drives me to the second. As such, I am entirely torn.

This is something i very much hope that viewers would read

When I started this thread, I was half-expecting it to fade away unnoticed, but I am surprised to see so many thoughtful and eloquent responses to the points I raised and heartened to find that I am not alone in my sentiments.

Quote by shoujoboy Here is the way I look at it all though. Rarely have I ever been to a forum that is interesting enough to actually read through the material and give an educated response. The majority of the forumgoers are, for lack of a better term, morons. So maybe in reality the forums are their domain while I just tread in them attempting to make change for what I consider to be the better.

I entirely agree with your observation, shoujoboy. While missorted threads and duplicate topics have always given me headaches, what truly infurates me are the threads on highly technical or philosophical issues created by idiots with grossly inflated perceptions of their own powers of reason. If some of the most accomplished and educated statesmen and academics of the past half century have not been able to fully comprehend, let alone resolve, the ongoing discord in the Middle East, how can, for example, some random teenager with no firsthand experience or any in-depth instruction in the subject (in other words, our average forumgoer) possibly have an opinion on the issue that is worth listening to?

Whenever I see threads in this vein, I am immediately reminded of the parable of the blind men and the elephant. As John Godfrey Saxe put it,

So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!

Quote by Spystreak Fighting an issue Fireflywishes brought up. I don't go in the City Hall or Religion and Science sections anymore. Why? quite frankly there is too much flaming going on. No matter how many times we say "If you can't be civil towards one another please don't post."

Such immaturity is deplorable and disheartening indeed, but for me the reason I stopped entering into the City Hall or Religion and Science forums entirely was because in the past while attempting to rectify entirely misguided or downright wrong opinions I realized that I was fighting an uphill battle. Like Sisyphus in the realm of Hades, just as I started to make progress in weeding out some of the incorrect assumptions, false assumptions, and conspiracy theories (all of which the forums are rife with), more would crop up, the boulder would slip, and I would have to start over again. The utter futility of the exercise eventually drove me to give up entirely on the effort.

Quote by flukeI always find it funny when you find a informative or thought provoking thread started, it is often one with the fewest posts in it. Where as the one's created about "Who's your favorite Care Bear" or whatever get massive amounts of one word comments on them.

Exactly. When seeing such threads, I often ask myself one question: who cares? I cannot for the life of me understand how reading a list of one-word responses submitted by random strangers can either improve the human condition or provide any measure of real satisfaction.

It is here that an attentive reader may recognize a real dilemma. On one hand, I wish that the average forumgoer, well-meaning but ignorant, would stop trying to initiate or participate in discussions on topics that are out of their league. On the other hand, I wish that forumgoers would not create frivolous topics of no utility whatsoever. How exactly does one reconcile this problem?

Quote by flukeI'm wondering myself, what is Minitokyo exactly? Is it an art community or is it a anime community?

Fluke asks a good question. Whenever a community or an organization begins, it should write out a clear mission statement to point it in a general direction. Right now, it is very difficult to see what Minitokyo is or what it ought to be. If Minitokyo is an anime community, then purge all non-anime images. Get rid of the City Hall forum. Get rid of the Life and Lifestyle forums. After all, it is not better to be good at one thing rather than to be poor at many.

This thread has bought tears of joy to my eyes and I now feel compulsed to write a long essay and join the sophisticated people of MT. Anyhow MT forums have become very confusing in what is and isn't aloud and I always blamed this on MT3 and the introduction of the credits system, many are compelled to post and 'contribute' as much as they possibly can to gain credits.

As for what MT actually is I now split it into two categories, that is the anime part with useful reviews and wallies and such and then the forums part, which of cause went down the drain. I agree complicating the 'make a thread' would be a good idea as it would wipe out a little bit of incompetence but the search feature has worried me from time to time. I've noticed in a few cases where threads from 50 weeks ago that haven't had a comment for 30 weeks have suddenly been found with the search feature and then destroyed with a one word revival comment (one member in particular I've noticed but wont mention here!)

I have no problems with the forums being split into all their new categories, I found it rather refreshing at first but all sections individually started to collapse again. If the forums were to really be cracked down upon then we would need a new army of moderators and all in all it's more effort than it's worth. As for flames and overbearing opinions I always get a little irratated by threads that aren't opening a discussion but rather trying to prove a point. example; the hundreds of threads all preaching god in a slightly different way.

I've never been reported for a post of thread (save for an accidental duplicate I reported myself) and as far as I know the moderators post in the thread to say why it's closed and may post a warning in the guestbook if the offence was serious or repeated. My thought was if the forums were made similar to the galleries in that a mod could send a default message to the user stating what they've done wrong and giving them a warning, 5 warnings and the member is muted for a period of time (I think mute is the right status). People would hopefully learn quicker and being muted would be reason enough not to push their luck.

As much as I'm enjoying this discussion without a serious overhaul I don't think there's much to be done about the forums at present, but may I ask; If this discussion brings forward positive, realistic ideas, which it has, would they be forwarded to Sheqel or Gottaname (and anyone else who may exist) and would they be interested in performing the overhaul?

In an effort to help all the newer members actually read the policies and rules, why not pin the topics to the front page in a seperate section above the most recent threds? I honestly believe this would cause more people to see and read them, and in an effort to keep people from spamming those threads perhaps posting abilities should be taken away from those threads without closing them IF possible. This is all hypothetical of course.

I too like the idea of muting a member, perhaps they are spamming with 1 word posts, it would be a good idea to let them know they are doing wrong. Of course like littlejonny said, it would require a new army of moderators.

Quote by littlejonny100As much as I'm enjoying this discussion without a serious overhaul I don't think there's much to be done about the forums at present, but may I ask; If this discussion brings forward positive, realistic ideas, which it has, would they be forwarded to Sheqel or Gottaname (and anyone else who may exist) and would they be interested in performing the overhaul?

I wouldn't doubt that Sheqel would be inclined to listen to any helpful ideas posed in this thread. I say only Sheqel beacause as of late Gottaname after the incident with AP isn't in a very good position with any of the mod staff nor Sheqel.

Anyways like littlejonny100 and Fluke said an army of moderators would be needed in order to institute any sort of order to the forums. Unfortunately like I said before we lack one fundamental thing in order to put that into action. That one thing we lack are members who actually prove themselves to be moderator material. So like Littlejonny100 said it'd be a futile attempt and a huge waste of the staffs time. (believe me finding new elites and was hard enough much less trying to find mods)

Quote by flukeIn an effort to help all the newer members actually read the policies and rules, why not pin the topics to the front page in a seperate section above the most recent threds? I honestly believe this would cause more people to see and read them, and in an effort to keep people from spamming those threads perhaps posting abilities should be taken away from those threads without closing them IF possible. This is all hypothetical of course.

The problem I see with this is what if new members don't bother to look at the frontpage closely. Yes there will be some that will take notice, but to my great fear I have a feeling this number will be shadowed by the vast numbers who just simply jump right into the forums/galleries and start "participating".
Although if a different color were to be used that might help things stick out more to members. Say we used a bolded gold text perhaps.
We could also have some sort of automated message that would be sent through PM giving newer members a list of all the stickied threads with an advisement that it would be helpful to read through prior to participating. Unfrotunately these PM's most likely will be overlooked just like an e-mail we'd send to the member.

Quote by shinsengumiIt is here that an attentive reader may recognize a real dilemma. On one hand, I wish that the average forumgoer, well-meaning but ignorant, would stop trying to initiate or participate in discussions on topics that are out of their league. On the other hand, I wish that forumgoers would not create frivolous topics of no utility whatsoever. How exactly does one reconcile this problem?

You can't which is the big problem. It's like telling members have fun and enjoy yourself oh one more thing you can't do this, this, this, and this. It beats the whole point. We want members to participate more, but at the same time we want spam and all the many useless threads to stop. The only thing that will get them to stop is mass mutings. Which as you all know will drive away everyone but a select daring few.

Quote by kuroimisaMy other idea in the back of my head is to change the "how to create a thread" system. When you click on NEW THREAD, you are immediately faced with a friendly looking box where you can type anything to your heart's content. Why not complicate things?

That would be a good it would certainly make members do more work in regards to making new threads. Sure would cut down on the number of dups we get. But it may also have the opposite effect then we want. I mean members as it is right now think MT is as confusing as trying to watch anime without subs. making the system more complex may not only stop all the useless threads, but it might also drive away even more of the older MT members. Just take a look back at MT3 early days. Numerous members both old and new were confused as heck with all the new features. Adding even more would improve MT but it would just make the situation we're in even worse.

This whole situation is just like a rubiks cube that has had all but one side completed. You try and try to find a solution that won't mess up any of the other sides, but can't find one. No matter how many times you ponder no matter how many hours you devote. The solution will still remain illusive.

Quote by kuroimisa
My other idea in the back of my head is to change the "how to create a thread" system. When you click on NEW THREAD, you are immediately faced with a friendly looking box where you can type anything to your heart's content. Why not complicate things?

If people can submit artwork, then people can surely manage~ I'd suggest having a page like the submit an artwork page- well, 3 pages. The first page you'll be faced with the search box. Doesn't matter if there's already a search function, I think the search box should turn up when you create a new thread.
The page should say something like "You would like to create a thred. Please read *link to FAQ/Policy* before creating any threads to prevent yourself from violating any rules.
"Please use the search box below to search for any duplicates of the thread you want to create."

If no items are put into the search box, you can't move onto the next page.
If it's then successful, you will move onto the next part: typing up the post itself.
The third page should hopefully be a confirmation page.
"Your thread titled "Academic blunders continued..." is in the category Webdev - is this correct?"
Well no, so you'll have to move it into the School/Work forum.

I don't know how possible this can be, and it might drive some people totally nuts... but I don't know if it's me-- why are some people so willing to type up long gallery descriptions and prepared to wait for each uploading step when the forum lets members simply type it up and go? To me, the forum and the gallery are very similar places and hold the same rules... if so, then I think forum posters should also be willing to go through a step by step process of creating a thread.

If that works... just, just maybe a few good threads will be made. If we say that about 10% of people can't handle the step by step process or task of searching before creating a thread, then that's 10% of bad threads eliminated before they even happen.

It may or not work.

Misa's got my vote over here, especially after the episode where the gallery was down last week. It really surprised me how people were creating one thread after another in an effort to find out why the gallery wasn't working. And then when Saikusa posted a sticky thread for the problem (she ever wrote in big, bold letters telling people to stop submitting and creating threads) people were still asking why the gallery wasn't working. In her thread. Obviously they didn't read the first post, so I'm not sure what we can do about that problem, since when you click on a thread, it brings you to the first post of the topic. It's up to the members to read that.

Quote by kuroimisaThen there's also the idea of approving a thread before it even appears on the page. This would probably cause a lot of problems because members will submit again and again thinking it's a bug or lag in the system. I doubt moderators would want more work already- but that's something they do over at animeforums.com for reviews. I guess this is not a solution... maybe it might prop up a few other brainwaves, hopefully.

Kinda like the approving method for walls over at AP? That might be a lot more work for the forum mods though.
As for members thinking it's a bug, mods could always use the service anouncement, or after completing the form for submitting a thread a message could say something like, "Your thread is in the process of being accepted".

Quote by fluke In an effort to help all the newer members actually read the policies and rules, why not pin the topics to the front page in a seperate section above the most recent threds? I honestly believe this would cause more people to see and read them, and in an effort to keep people from spamming those threads perhaps posting abilities should be taken away from those threads without closing them IF possible. This is all hypothetical of course.

I too like the idea of muting a member, perhaps they are spamming with 1 word posts, it would be a good idea to let them know they are doing wrong. Of course like littlejonny said, it would require a new army of moderators.

Pinning the rules and policy to the front page is something I've always thought MT should've had, and having it in a section above the "Recent Threads" might be an even better idea. If members see something different on the main page, perhaps they'll check it out. And yes, MT would need a much bigger staff to help make the forum a bit better.

But anyway, I'm just agreeing with the posts above me in most matters (so this'll probably count as spam, to you Shin). I don't really participate in the forums (except for the occasional poke through the sandbox, bug reports or to particiapte in group announcements) since when you go through most threads, everything's already been said, spam or not. I remember a friend telling me a long while back that, after she started a thread asking whether Spiral was a good anime to watch/buy, she statrted to get pissed, since all the responses where either "yes" or "no" or they would quote one another and say things like, "I agree".
I also realised that while I myself have started some really stupid threads, creating new ones with thought-provoking originality is hard (as someone mentioned in this thread) since most members participating nowadays in the forum are... well, rather lazy, in both posting and reading.

Quote by SpystreakThe problem I see with this is what if new members don't bother to look at the frontpage closely. Yes there will be some that will take notice, but to my great fear I have a feeling this number will be shadowed by the vast numbers who just simply jump right into the forums/galleries and start "participating".
Although if a different color were to be used that might help things stick out more to members. Say we used a bolded gold text perhaps.
We could also have some sort of automated message that would be sent through PM giving newer members a list of all the stickied threads with an advisement that it would be helpful to read through prior to participating. Unfrotunately these PM's most likely will be overlooked just like an e-mail we'd send to the member.

So you are saying something similiar to the Recent Threads but perhaps with Bold Colored text to make it more noticeable. I like that idea.

Also instead of perhaps a automated message, because I wonder myself if NEW members even know how to check them, perhaps we put something default on their user page describing policies, rules or just the links to them for easy access. Make it so this default content can be deleted by the user when they are ready and know how to just buy customizing content and deleting it.

Also, I'm not sure if they can or not, but can Elite Members close threads? Thats just the moderators correct? Well, if thats the case, perhaps Elite Member's should have the ability to "Quarantine" threads so no one cne can continue to post on them if they are pointless and the "Quarantine" would bring notice to a moderator so they could make the final decision whether or not to close it. Now this ability wouldn't have to be manditory of Elite Members, but surely it would help the moderators duties a little.

Spystreak, can you point Sheqel to this wonderfull thread to take a look at our idea's?

Like all of you who already posted, I enjoy a good discussion even if my ideas aren't in tune with other people's ideas. That is the whole point of a forum: to counteract another's opinion based on what you are able to conclude, thus entailing the connected responses part that shinsengumi has been aiming at for the very longest. If we have this exchange of opinions, perhaps members would begin to think that the discussions would be relatively interesting to them, and I'm sure everyone, if they put their minds to it, has something to say. Also, asking questions about particular opinions and perhaps even facts in the same thread aids in the discussion, and it seems most of us want to establish these goals.

The problem is that people, as previously said, think the forum is a free-for-all in terms of the way they are replying, which is, to me, quite arrant, ignorant, and defiant of their own range of knowledge. The thread creator, depending on the topic, especially if the topic implies disconnected responses, is just as guilty as the repliers. If we redefined the true definition of the forum, overtime it would sink in members' heads and perhaps we would be able to refine the forum itself. Setting post limits, time limits, and thread creation limits does not help very much. Words have to be constantly beaten into members' heads in order to get them to post in the correct fashion. If the members could take the time to be lazy while posting, they could take the time to learn how forums really function. Besides, why do or did we all go to school in the first place?

Quote by flukeIn an effort to help all the newer members actually read the policies and rules, why not pin the topics to the front page in a seperate section above the most recent threds? I honestly believe this would cause more people to see and read them, and in an effort to keep people from spamming those threads perhaps posting abilities should be taken away from those threads without closing them IF possible. This is all hypothetical of course.

I too like the idea of muting a member, perhaps they are spamming with 1 word posts, it would be a good idea to let them know they are doing wrong. Of course like littlejonny said, it would require a new army of moderators.

I would also agree with fluke on both counts . However, like other have already stated, I'm not sure how many people would read it on the frontpage. I was wondering if it would be possible to have it stickied at the top of each forum instead of only in the Entrance Lounge? Not all members stop by to introduce themselves, so they can always say "I didn't know", but if we have it at the top of every discussion forum (minus the sandbox and art dump) then they have no excuse. But then again, I don't know if that would clutter things up too much...

Okaeri. Ohisashiburi desu.

First, what a dark view of the forum !

*checks her own example : has posted less and has been more active in another forum => bad example*

I disagree that some of the things you observed are really that prejudicing.

Especially the one about grammar and spelling, especially since I don't claim to be that skilled with English and I suppose many posters whose native tongue isn't English are in the same spot than me (even if we could probably improve more by opening some books but posting in MT would be more like an english homework that something we would enjoy... even if I did think it was funny that I edited one of my posts more than 5 times because of silly mistakes). That's I think one of MT's advantages : to welcome so many members with different nationalities.

But posting something that is understandable is also important.

*is pretty sure there are many mistakes in this post, pleads for forgiveness*

Why do all the threads have to be meaningful ?
Even if it's about a personal experience, I think that just writing it can be helpful.
Even it's a stupid game, isn't it important that at least a person has fun without making anything bad ?

Since there's an important turn-over of members and not all the threads have explicit names, it may also explain why the same threads come back and well... threads aren't supposed to be bumped when they are more than 4 weeks old so... I can also say as a former newbie how hard it is to create a thread but in a way newcomers probably feel more confortable once they have created a thread that seem interesting for them.

True there's also a serious lack of common sense, I thought it was funny to see that some people can more easily create new threads than read some older ones but it must have been annoying for the staff. That's also why enforcing the rules may make just more people breaking some... since unlike what I did naively think people's first act in a new environment isn't to observe.

But in the end, I think a variety of threads is really important, so people can choose what kind of things they want to talk about. Although because of the important number of people, it may not be wise to allow too many things otherwise it will run wild.

I am not convinced that it's meaningless threads that drive members away. Well, it isn't this that has driven me away since a forum I like is mostly made of meaningless threads but it's funny and friendly, and I have been learning to know its members even if it's for superficial things (it's probably selfish but I am just glad when in that way we are aware of each other, at least we have shared something). I think MT is a too impersonnal forum with too many members, too many threads... in a way it can be difficult to feel we really communicate with others. I guess that groups can compensate that but groups restrict the topics but that's just my personal opinion and it has hasn't really changed from the one I had when I joined more than one year ago.

But I agree that some threads are really irritating, that's why I don't go often to the City Hall even though I am an avid news reader. There's probably true it's better to not talk about politics and religion since discussions can degenerate quickly.

Making an easier way to have all the updated information a newbie should know would be really nice... and well forcing them to see it at least once could prevent to implement a system to make more likely a thread is correctly created. It would be a pity if some of the newcomers don't make their intro thread because of that. I'm a bit curious if there's still the same number of people that join MT since the introductions threads seem to be fewer and fewer.

I suppose what's at stake is what people want to make this forum like. Since MT is also a (anime/manga/video game ...) wallpaper, scans and Indie art gallery, isn't it unsurprising that most of the threads aren't the serious ones ? And doesn't MT attract an important number of young people ? We can't also deny that the credits may motivate some of the members, especially the ones that are here mostly to download things and don't want to/can't "seriously" contribute.

*isn't really sure if what she has said is relevant, after all she is probably too lenient (that prevents to be too much desesperated by people) and now really hangs out in just one subforum and not even that often.*

Ok, that's all for now before I decide to heavily edit this text.

The many suggestions has been going around and being noted but the question is i always ask myself... Would anything be done after this discussion or would it be just another thing of dust.... Many things in life come with bright future shining on them but sadly very few are willing to take the extra mile to go for it...

Jeez ! I think it's been a 1 hour read for me, to update myself with all the new posts. Now, wouldn't that be some kind of 'newbie-repellant' ?
From what i see in many 'introduction' threads, the interest of people who join MT is about 1)making friends, 2)leeching the galleries, 3)posting in the forum (you can arrange that in any priority you want). Therefore, the reading of long, complicated (though meaningfull) threads isn't what they are looking for. And if you consider 2), they need credit for that, thus spamming the forum. Which is a commonly known fact even since MT2.

Now, to bounce upon the 'how to force the policy / FAQ' onto new members, i think we could have some sort of 'user licence' agreement, like when you want to install a program, there's the licence that pops up and you have to say 'i agree' to continue on installing. I know, just like everyone here (i reckon), i press 'i agree' without having read past the first line (that being when i'm in a good mood). So how to get around that problem ?
When the 'still not member' clicks 'join MT' (or whatever the button is to become a member), he would be forwarded to the policy and FAQ, and he wouldn't be able to continue to membership until he has spent at least a number of minutes on these pages (like a timer, maybe we can have someone read the rules and time him / herself, and say 'that's the average time to read the rules'). I understand that maybe a lot of would-be members will go eat a pizza, watch an anime on their PC etc... but some might read the policy / FAQ ! (plus, if we could make a lightest version of the policy, it could help.... sorry shin, but your writting might be too 'high-level' for the average member, especially non English).

Then you can also use the automated PM system to inform new members of sticky threads.

Another thing : couldn't all thread makers of the entrance lounge automatically be forwarded to the policy / FAQ ?

Quote by lacusxxclyneMany things in life come with bright future shining on them but sadly very few are willing to take the extra mile to go for it...

. But a few still rival the stars in the sky

After reading some of the responses to this thread, I decided to re-read my original post. While I feel that my post adequately captured my sentiments, I do believe that apologies are in order because my disappointment with the state of affairs has embittered me to such a point where I so snobbishly maligned members of the community, some few of whom are innocent of my blanket descriptions and others who unwittingly commit actions that have so aggravated me.

I am reminded of a thread that I created while forum moderator [link] that urged tolerance on the part of all. As I noted,

Quote by shinsengumiMany here are artistically-inclined, while others have talents in other fields, literary or otherwise. Yet regardless of individual strengths or weaknesses, all are entitled to their opinions, as every item and every issue can be viewed from many viewpoints. As a result, all perspectives are entitled the same measure of respect. Likewise, all are entitled to their own opinions on their peers. However, insults have no place here, as they are counterproductive to the very idea of community.

In the spirit of community, I will try to follow my own directive and refrain from counterproductive activities in the future. As such, I would like to focus on ways of addressing the problems that so many of us have observed in the forums.

Quote by kuroimisaIf people can submit artwork, then people can surely manage~ I'd suggest having a page like the submit an artwork page- well, 3 pages. The first page you'll be faced with the search box. Doesn't matter if there's already a search function, I think the search box should turn up when you create a new thread.

I am glad to see that many see the same problems as I do. However, I think that one of the problems with Minitokyo is its complexity. As is, the navication is labyrinthine, and there are already altogether too many menus and interfaces, and the like. More pages, including a search box, would certainly discourage the more lazy potential thread starters and therefore eliminate many frivolous posts before they can be created. Still, it does so by increasing the complexity of the site, which simply enhances one problem at the expense of another.

Quote by kuroimisaThen there's also the idea of approving a thread before it even appears on the page. This would probably cause a lot of problems because members will submit again and again thinking it's a bug or lag in the system. I doubt moderators would want more work already- but that's something they do over at animeforums.com for reviews. I guess this is not a solution... maybe it might prop up a few other brainwaves, hopefully.

This I like, though with a clarification: I would like the approval requirement to only enforce the spirit of the forum guidelines and the policy. Moderators should not be permitted to reject (or fail to approve) threads on the basis of substance.

How this might work would be this: all proposed threads get piled into a queue, where moderators need only check a box to have them appear in the forum proper. Any thread that remains in the queue for over a certainl period of time gets automatically purged.

I would go point by point on the above posts, but it's getting late, so I will just comment on one other post that really caught my attention.

Quote by alminaWhy do all the threads have to be meaningful ?
Even if it's about a personal experience, I think that just writing it can be helpful.
Even it's a stupid game, isn't it important that at least a person has fun without making anything bad ?

Almina is absolutely correct, of course. Posts certainly need not all contain a groundbreaking interpretation of some literary classic, a new law of nature, or the cure to cancer. In my view, however, moderators are responsible for finding a balance between individual pleasure and the enjoyment of the community as a whole. Some threads, therefore, while they may be fun for the handful of members immediately involved, may be of great annoyance to the greater community, and therefore should perhaps be subject to a bit more restrictions.

For example, recall that threads in the Chat Lounge used to appear in the list of recent threads. Because of the sheer number of more light-hearted and less-substantial threads in the Chat Lounge, actual discussions were almost entirely crowded out, to the great annoyance of most formgoers. As a result, restrictions were placed on the Chat Lounge to prevent Chat Lounge threads from being advertised on the recent threads list, and as a whole I believe that change was a beneficial one from a community standpoint.

How to start.

Well i do agree some threads are tottaly unnecassary, such as favorites, and who do you like.

When it comes to city hall, and religous debate, i also realize that people can get very angry, sharp and even nasty, i myself have gone out of line before, though of late i have tried to keep my opinions under control and not go overboard, so to speak.

When it comes to grammar, sometimes that just can't be helped, not everyone, is as good with a keyboard as others , and some are not particuarly good with English.

To end my statment, i will try to give more educated respones in the future and will strive to be a better MT Citzen.

I read this thread, and I really was happy knowing what everyone thinks of MT. Most of the things mentioned I entirely agree about. I think Kuroimisa's idea of having a more complicated version of submitting a thread would really help with the spam and duplicate topics. I also have been having the feeling some people don't understand what ever Forum they are in and click on "make a new thread", that means the thread will be placed in that Forum. They should consider where it goes, check for a duplicate, read the rules. It clearly states: "The creation of duplicates of threads with activity within the past four weeks is prohibited, and as such members are expected to use existing threads when possible and to search for active threads before creating new ones." - Minitokyo Policy. Clearly, they're just lazy and don't bother to read the rules, and don't check for the activity of a previous thread. But then I thought of this whole situation ... Most common threads involve, a one word answer, what would be the point in making ANOTHER thread which is just spam, and not a meaningful discussion.

The gallery is corrupt, no matter how much the staff at MT (which are always so dedicated and hard-working) try to salvage it ... It will never be how most of us want it to be. What ever happened to the xx amount of characters necessary to post a comment? Because I see more than ever small comments "nice", "beautiful". Personally, I think some members should be muted or get a warning for these things.

As being a member here for over a year or so ... I used to enjoy this community more. Simply it's the newer forumers that have arrived. Not just in this forum, but others I've been to also. They're immature, and treat it as a chatroom. I find it really irritating when I posted in this thread once ... The threadstarter was asking what anime was this character from, and supplied a picture. I was first to post and said where it was from. I wish I could of closed it, because after my post, there was like 5 other members who wrote where it was from ... The question was already answered, why would you reply the same thing?! It's because they just want to SAY something, regardless if it's useful. I can't imagine trying to moderate this Forum, threads get created within minutes, it's difficult to filter through all of them I would think.

I don't go to the Religion and Science Forum, Love and Family, Food, etc. All the topics in there are yes/no kind of things, and I find especially in the love and family, all the threads are the same, they touch the same subjects, of what kind of person you like to date basically.

I think all the old threads should be closed, I know it'll take a long time, maybe there's a faster way. But I'm tired of people bumping old threads and some introductions even for some odd reason ... Oh, and for the members that write ALL IN CAPS FOR THE TITLE. This is very annoying ... I can't say I take anyone seriously with this.