Heaven and Hell...Do they exist?
Religion & Science
Do you believe in heaven/hell?
Heaven and Hell...Do they exist?
Do you believe in heaven/hell?
- yes
- 18 votes
- no
- 16 votes
- i dont kno
- 6 votes
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I'm a christian so i believe that hell and heaven exist. Your friend is right, God really does exist and quite sad that alot of ppl dun believe....have faith towards God brings us to salvation...when you pray for something...God have three answer, that is yes, no and wait. If it's wait you'll have to wait till God think the time is right so it can be after 30 or 40 yrs..if you lose faith before the time comes, you'll not get what you want..
Have you heard about the miricles that God did? Alot! You havent heard it from someone else yet! It takes alot of faith to let it happen. Well, yeah we do things ourselves but God is there to help us if things go wrong if you believe He'll help even the very last minute. I have all these ecounters alot of times!
i think i saw a thread like this b4 but yup they do exist. heaven at least in a real context is when u r living happily or something like that and i heard that hell existed in earth too i dunno if it bad publicity but they say its cleveland
anyway that's just dumb. but maybe it isn't
Haha, I was so ready to say that same thing after I read the first post.
First, can all of you stop telling me what my religion is. I refuse to accept any religion as my own. I beleive what I have learned to be true, through my own studies or what God has told me. I hate Religion. It is something mankind invented to seperate and organize something that can't be organized. No two men have the same beliefs.
Ok. Back to the subject at hand.
well... if he made us all perfect what would be the joy in a perfect world. We wouldn't understand the beauty of perfection if it was all we had ever seen.
Sin is basically anything that is disobeying God's greatest commandment, which is stated by Jesus Christ in Mark 13 "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength and love your neighbor as yourself" Meaning, Love. Love God with every part of your body and love other people as much, if not more, than you love yourself. So, if what you're doing shows something that is not Love to God and all other people involved, then it is a sin.
I don't believe any human is capable of not commiting one sin in their entire life, except for Jesus Christ, he was God, therefore he could not sin, but, he was also human, therefore he was tempted.
I completely understand that. I think that's a good thing to feel. But, when you accept Christ for who he is, God no longer sees your sins. He doesn't just say your forgiven, he sees you as his son, perfect and spotless, untouched by sin. But, you still see yourself for the sinful person you are. I struggle with that sort of feeling every day.
No she will not stop loving him, I guess I didn't say it clearly enough. God, has given us our whole life of warning us of the punishment, he warns us all the time of what will happen if we don't love him. He doesn't just throw us into hell unknowingly, he shows it to us long before we get it and he continues to tell us of our coming punishment.
Sorry, I'm kind of jumping around the whole subject answering things rather than laying it out exactly as I believe it. My brain doesn't work well enough to do things like that, it works better in a sporatic hopping motion.
i believe that hell & heaven are really exist, coz when God created all of us in the world, God created us as a leader..leader's job is to make world goin' on peace, and safe for everyone, and believe me every kindness and sins we made, there are consequency for that, just like business there is reward and punishment...
Aren't we getting off topic here?
No, I don't think it would be boring.
I'm not surprise by your answer because I already asked others mortals the same question and the majority gave me the same answer.
As for that quote of Jereimaih, I have no idea why you used or what is your point by using it.
Just to be clear the definition of perfection is, broadly, a state of completeness and flawlessness.
Now back to you. Being perfect does not mean that you can only obey God and that you don't have free will.
When you were very little and didn't know what math was, lets say you came across the problem 25x25 I'm sure you did not know the answer and that you would have made a mistake answering it. But now you're grown up and you learn the answer to the problem and memorize it so that you wouldn't make that mistake again.
Why did you memorize it? Is it because God commanded you to or is it because you know better now?
Are you going to answer it wrong purposely?
(^Don't answer those question. They are only rhetorical.)
A perfect being would do the right choice because he/she knows what is the right choice.
Does that mean they don't have free will? No, only that they know better.
If you did not do the right choice, then you are not perfect are you?
If you make the wrong choice then automatically you are not perfect. It would go against its definition.
I answer most of these above.
Also, you don't have to be a machine to do what is right.
You're incorrect as I have given you definition of perfection.
Most of what you wrote just thwarts the idea that they are perfect.
Just because you always do what is right doesn't mean you can't do what is wrong. You just know better and decide not to do it. Is doing what is right all the time obeying?
Can't one live doing everything perfectly and only do the right choice?
But is it not their own choice to do what is right especially when they know what is right?
Love can enter the picture of an imperfect being but it can't enter the picture of a perfect one? Explain yourself.
First, I would like to say that this color hurt my eyes.
Second, that I understand what you mean even though I disagree with some of it.
I agree.
Your all merciful God doesn't seem very merciful and benevolent in this light. Does he?
Puddle 3 once wrote:
Even if the person is an unbeliever do you think it is a fair punishment?
All of your question you have fallacies of reasoning. Mainly post hoc ergo propter hoc and second non sequitar.
You are absolutely correct. What is good to one is bad to another and vice versa. Some people also told me that I'm going to hell. "You're not Christian than I'm sorry but your going to hell for all eternity". My answer "Look at the positive side. At least it will be warm and cozy."
I don't get. What is it with you mortals, honestly?
Through perfection final peace can be attained, conflict would stop and greatness could be achieved. But yet, you mortals rather have your hectic world and its misery.
Ok. Now I know.
Though I disagree in the part that only Jesus can live a sinless life and I could tell you why but you would refute it anyway.
You're joking right?
First, you're supposably His creation from the start. Which mean that you are technically speaking His sons/daughters.
Secondly, He is suppose to be omnipresent (among many other qualities). Which would means that we are god and goddess. (imagine that).
I'm not yet perfect since I'm still in a corporeal body which limits my capacities. But I never feel sinful nor do I struggle with those types of feelings.
*Kill the blasphemous one. Burn him to the steak. Send this unbeliever in the deepest pits of hell.*
I see. But it does not change the fact the He lets you there for all eternity which is hardly a proper punishment.
Also your example is flawed. If there is a village in a remote mountain who never hear (of whatever you believe in) and its warnings. What do you think is going to happen to them?
If there is a God then with the attributes that been given to those of the Western Hemisphere then hell should not exist.
That is why I keep my original idea:
I believe that mortals create their own heaven and hell in their minds.
heaven and hell do not exist its just what religion wants us to think. its just a figment of our imagination.
The world has severly warped the true nature of heaven and hell. Too many people rely on philosophies they've constructed themselves simply because they sound right to them. Furthermore, people are so frequently misinterpriting religeous texts, or even making claims without any knowledge on the subject, that it has become difficult for many to understand, let alone accept. Then there is the simple refusal many people have to believe in such things. They see the world around them and nothing else, and have hardened their hearts against God.
In the end, it all comes down to having faith, an open mind, a willing spirit, and a loving heart. I do believe in Heaven and hell and am a Christian (Southern Baptist if you want to get technical, though dinomination hasen't always been a big concern of mine). I hope (pray) that more people will open their minds and hearts to the lord and that they will find peace with him as I have.
I will say, I was hoping that you will ask it. You say something about "Why God did not make us all perfect?" And in asking that, you are questioning God. The point in that quote is that God is saying to His people that He is the maker, and that them are in His hands to make with them whatever He likes.
"It is bad for those who try to hide their plans from the Lord, and whose works are done in a dark place. They say, "Who sees us?" or, "Who knows us?" You turn things up-side-down! Is the pot-maker the same as the clay? Should what is made say to its maker, "He did not make me"? Should what is made say to him who made it, "He has no understanding"? "
Isaiah 29:15-16
Are you telling me that you (every person in your religion) is right and all others are wrong? That you (people from your religion) is good and we're the evil ones? I don't mean to put words in mouth but it sounds like that by the way you phrase it.
Also, have you read from cover to cover the whole Holy Text of your belief? If you have made it to the end, please congratulate yourself. You are one of the few and the proud who made it. But otherwise, you're not much better than those who misinterpret them.
You speak of acceptance. There are actually people who accept for what you believe they just have different points of view (me for instance).
There is one point that you made that is very interesting and that is that we should have faith, an open mind, willing spirit and loving hearts. There isn't much of that left in this world.
Firstly, I'm not questioning God. I'm asking you a question.
Secondly, you are right. He can do whatever he wants.
You want me to ask you what you meant again don't you?
I'll let you answer what it means exactly.
All I have to say is that this is one weird passage. Your God is suppose to be all knowing. You can't hide something from Him.
Also I don't understand what did the person meant by "He has no understanding?"
Oh wow, way to miss the point entirely. I practically disproved god a couple paragraphs up anyway. My point was if you ask any number of the hundreds of simple, reasonable questions about religion to a priest or a religious authority they will always give you some long, drawn out, convoluted answer, usually a copout or an excuse for god. The one answer that covers every single one of these questions simply, reasonably, and logically is that "god is imaginary". Perhaps individually they could be considered post hoc but when clumped together and looking at the big picture it becomes very obvious that it's all related and that the usual religious answers are just feeding you bs.
Lets take another example from this very thread.....An answer you recieved actually.....
You see this bs answer you got? See any major problems with it?
God is perfect, yet he makes imperfect beings and an imperfect world. You ask a reasonable question - Why is this? He then has to make an excuse for why god would do something that clearly goes against his supposed attributes - "If we were perfect we would not know joy". Now look at that, if we were PERFECT we would not know JOY. Clearly we're considering joy a positive thing, and if someone is perfect yet doesn't have joy then he couldn't be considered perfect now could he? On top of that, he's GOD, could he not simply give us the joy we're lacking? Instead we must be punished to feel this so-called joy? His convoluted, illogical answer only brings up 10 more questions that need answering.
He then goes to the copout of "We wouldn't understand the beauty of perfection if it was all we had ever seen." That's like saying you wouldn't understand how nice it is to not being in pain if you weren't stabbed every other day, it makes no sense. You can enjoy something without experiencing the direct negative of it. I don't have to be starving to enjoy a steak. I don't have to be imprisoned to enjoy my freedom. Nor do we have to have been dead to know the joy of life. He's simply making an excuse for god's inconsistencies. And having gone through two different answers he still hasn't answered your question with anything even mildly acceptable.
Now watch me answer it in 3 little words that cover every aspect of the question. God is imaginary. We aren't perfect because a perfect being did not shape us. No drawn out bsing, no copouts, no excuses, just a straight answer. It syncs up with reality, it doesn't contradict anything, no mumbo jumbo, you can't possibly come up with a better, more realistic answer.
Here's another example. Carmen here decided that the question isn't even worth acknowledging. More accurately, Carmen can't answer the question and has been brainwashed by her religion to not ask questions like these. Logic, reality, and science are the enemies of religion. An inquisitive person is not the ideal beliiever. FAITH, believing things with no reason or proof, these are actually POSITIVE qualities in religion. A gullible idiot is far more likely to get into heaven than a questioning scientist.
Do these sound like the teachings of a perfect god? Or do they sound like the teachings of an institution that wants to keep you stupid in order to remain in control over you?
So, back to Carmen. She gives yet another copout to the same question. Her answer? We can't understand god or our surroundings so it's best not to question them. What if the world was run by religious fools like Carmen who went by this text? We'd never get anything done! Science would halt. We'd all live in mud huts and eat bugs. Not only is this answer woefully inadequate, it's practically malicious.
Translation: Remain ignorant.
Do these sound like the words of a loving, all knowing being to you? Would he not want us to discover the world he made for us? Is he so starved for attention that he'd rather everyone remain stupid than to even question his existence or motives for a second? This god will not even show himself yet he demands everyone believe in him or be punished for eternity. Push all religious brainwashing to the back of your head and think about whether that makes even a tiny bit of sense. Again the religious answer only brings up a dozen more questions that need addressing.
You've been given three different answers to the same question and all three have the appearance of smashing a square peg into a round hole. Go back to those 3 words however, and all the contradictions disapear and all the pegs lock into place. THAT was my point...
Yeah, I think we are...
Well this has been entertaining, but I realize now that my brain doesn't work well enough to talk correctly. Well, I already knew that, but now I know I also can't type correctly, at least not well enough to have any form of intelligent discussion. My answer remains: Yes.
yeah... we're definately getting off topic...
As always, a debate like this strays to the debate 'is there a god or not'. I will try make this statement so it offends no one.
At this time there is no Scientific Evidence to support a place such as hevean or hell. if there is any evidence that will emerge let me know, because then i will think of the possiblity of a hevean.
As i said once ( i'm sure someone else said it before me), " People make their own hevaen and hells here on earth." When i said that statment i ment that it's important to care about the now, not the when you die . Right now people create a hellish like state in Sudan, and for others who are rich and have no worries its a hevan like state. It's important, to create that Hevean here on earth not wait and hope for it until we die.
But, i am probably boring everyone with my figuritve speech, so my final answer is, in the Religous sense, no i do not belive in any hevean or hell.
Heh, of course it does. It's like arguing about what's inside of a box when you haven't even established whether the box itself exists or not.
I will never believe that God want all the people to be ingnorant. Really is not what that passage means. The passage is reffering to the people that thinks that God can't see them, so they do evil things in the dark. It does not refer to the knowledge. There are several passages in the Bible that urges the people to think, to understand. Do you ever have read the book of Proberbs? It has hundreds of references to be wise, not simple or ignorant.
"Does not wisdom call? Does not understanding raise her voice? She takes her stand on the top of the hill beside the way, where the paths meet. Beside the gates in front of the town, at the open doors, she cries out, "I call to you, O men. My voice is to the sons of men. O childlike ones, learn to use wisdom. O fools, make your mind understand. Listen, for I will speak great things. What is right will come from my lips. For my mouth will speak the truth. My lips hate wrong-doing. All the words of my mouth are right and good. There is nothing in them that is against the truth. They are all clear to him who understands, and right to those who find much learning. Take my teaching instead of silver. Take much learning instead of fine gold. For wisdom is better than stones of great worth. All that you may desire cannot compare with her."
Proberbs 8:1-11
"Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?" - Isaiah 29:15
Explanation: Mistaken are people who think that they can escape the eyes of God by hiding their thoughts and actions. (precisely because God is all knowing)
"Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?" - Isaiah 29:16
Explanation: If you make a wheeled robot to move a box by road from point A to point B, is the robot wise to say, "Yu-huang is foolish because he should have made me with legs instead of wheels." No, because you the maker of the robot know better than it - that wheels are better for traveling on roads than legs.
Science has it's limits, Shinsengumi89. It can't, answer all questions. The Big Bang theory goes against the observed law of the conservation of energy/matter, and the theory of Naturalistic Evolution goes against the fundamental common sense of the entropy of information. These theories proceed far beyond the bounds of fact and instead trespass into the realm of philosophy. Can you prove that you can create matter out of nothing? Or can you prove that information/life can come from natural processes (abiogenesis)? You cannot. Facts are neutral. What you infer from them ie.: 1. It might be proven in future. - or - 2. It is impossible, is a matter of faith.
"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed." - John 20:29
The existance of God is, more often than not, inferred rather than seen.
What you believe in (abiogenesis and whatnot), Plunkies, is also a matter of faith. We as Christians are specifically commanded to be wise.
"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." - Matthew 10:16
I am a questioning scientist. I am an Food Engineer, graduated from college. I don't think of me as a gullible idiot, sincerely. And I answered you to your second opinion first because it was easy for me to find that passage in the Bible. I have read it several times, because I want to understand it. As a believer, I don't want to have only the things that other people want me to believe (that only creates fanatics, people who do anything in "The name of God", even breaking his laws). I want to know what God want me to believe. And the Bible is the best way to find what is what God want us his creatures in this world, to believe. I don't find the scientific knowledge to be against God, or against religion. This world is wonderful. Everyting in it is wonderful. But God have make some thing imperfect and some things more perfect (if the cocroaches have lasted 225 millions of years without change, I think that these bugs are more perfect than us, poor humans, with only 2 millions years in this planet). But since you didn't accept Bible arguments, I will give you a Manga one, about why we need imperfections (a human opinion, but I think that this is very accurated):
In this image (from Angel/Dust, chapter seven), Seraph remembers her previous mistress, as she explains why the people have defects (Is a scanlation, I know, but I don't know Japanese, so I could not use an original image). But The Word of God never is wasted:
"If you do not have wisdom, ask God for it. He is always ready to give it to you and will never say you are wrong for asking. You must have faith as you ask Him. You must not doubt. Anyone who doubts is like a wave which is pushed around by the sea. Such a man will get nothing from the Lord. The man who has two ways of thinking changes in everything he does."
James 1:5-8
Go read Job, come back, and tell me what the moral of the story was.
Yes facts are neutral, fortunately for you lying is always on your side. Doesn't your god have something to say about those who lie? Or are you like most religious people, following only those parts of their religion that happen to be convenient for them? Or do you think that lying in god's name is somehow justified, like how the religious man who firebombs an abortion clinic somehow thinks he's doing good?
I have no faith in abiogenesis. I only believe what I believe to the extent the evidence allows.
If I wrote a book, handed it to someone and told them god wrote it through me and that they should read every word of it as truth and they did exactly that, would you not consider him a gullible idiot?
Again you give me another answer that answers absolutely nothing. I love when people prove my points for me.
I'm not really sure what to believe?....The question that bothers me the most is, if God is the creator of all things HOW WAS HE CREATED? I alway's wondered about that as a kid. There are alot of mysterious things in this world that questions will never be awnsered. I don't think God is perfect, I'm sure he's had some flaws to, otherwise he wouldn't be God. What matters to me right now is that I believe what I believe and that's to enjoy life to the fullest, Don't believe everything you hear! There may be a heaven... there may not be, only death will let us know.
And I love to have an intelligent conversation. You have your faith, I have mine. And as for faith, I know that I can't understand it, I just feel it. Is irracional, but there it is. And as for science, I know a lot of scientific facts, and I don't see anything wrong with them. They feed my brain and my spirit. The science is our knowledge of this world, based on empirical facts. We can't know everyting, we can't say that we can't make mistakes. And since the science is based in our understandig of this world, it changes when our understanding changes. Is limited since we are limited.
The empirical facts can support some theory (like the Big Bang theory, for example), or can go against it. Then, some scientist decided to support some theory and others decide to don't support it. And here we come to my point, you can use the scientific facts to support watever you like (for me, every new thing I know about this world support my faith). The science is not absolute, is not the ultimate knowledge, because is traped inside the human point of view. Then it only reveals the truth that some scientist decide to believe. But if some empirical fact arises that denies a theory, the people that believes that the theory is a good explanation for somethig can choose to accept that new fact, or to say that it is not valid.
And for the book of Job, I have read it many times. It explains that even the most perfects between the humans beings can suffer. And than the suffering can be a trial to prove to the devil that a person is sincere in his/her belief. Is a beautiful story, and if you question me, yes, I believe that is a true story (even if it have been transformed in a poem). Job has one major flaw, he thought that he know everything about God, but he just know a little bit about Him.
And I know that the Bible must have errors (it was written by the hand of man afterall), but, I did not see how it was made, so, I can't say "This part happened just like it is written, and that part no". I just see the fact that even in persecution, doubts and discussions, The Bible have lasted more than 20 centuries. (And I know there are some other sacred scriptures that even have lasted longer, that is an empirical fact). But I see the Bible as the most logical of all them. It was written to show how God decided to give the humanity a way out of the sistem that He Himself had made, since the humanity can't achieve salvation on their own.
And for the imperfections, if we were perfect, we will not have anything to do, that is why I said that the world will be boring. If you are perfect, you can't do anything better that before, because you can't surpass perfection. Is logic, if something is perfect, then, it can't get any better. That is the same thing that I was trying to say in the example of the cochroaches. They are so perfect that they don't need to change (they can eat watever they find, they can survive radiation better than almost any other being, etc.) We are imperfects, so we change to try to be better than we are (that is what I undertand from that manga pic).
While this apparent Atheist thinks that killing off 90% of humans on earth is a good thing. http://www.sas.org/tcs/weeklyIssues_2006/2006-04-07/feature1p/index.html Somehow massacare on a gobal scale is a justifiable act. It's as easy to attack Atheism as to attack Theism. Your attacks on personal character show none of the supposed admiration of science that you claim to have.
The restriction on Atheists is that, you have to believe in abiogenesis. Either another life created life on earth or none did. Abiogenesis is exactly that: that life came from purely natural pocesses, without intelligent intervention. It is said the it is possible to be an Theistic Darwinist but impossible to be a Atheistic Creationist.
theres no making sense of something as intangible as a topic like religion. it's all up to self-interpretation: in which case, should also apply to the concept of heaven and hell. do you think it exists? will you live your life accordingly? i think that's all that matters.
Job set an outstanding example for modern-day servants of God. He was "blameless and upright," a man that Jehovah was proud to call "my servant." (Job 1:8; 42:7, 8) This does not mean, however, that Job was perfect. At one point during his trials, he wrongly assumed that God was the cause of his calamity. He even criticized God's way of dealing with man. (Job 27:2; 30:20, 21) And he declared his own righteousness rather than God's. (Job 32:2) But Job refused to turn his back on the Creator, and he humbly accepted correction from God. "I talked, but I was not understanding," he admitted. "I make a retraction, and I do repent in dust and ashes."--Job 42:3, 6.
When under trial we too may think, speak, or act in a way that is not fitting. (Compare Ecclesiastes 7:7.) Nevertheless, if our love for God is deep, we will not rebel against him or grow bitter because he permits us to experience hardships. Instead, we will maintain our integrity and thus eventually reap a great blessing. The psalmist said of Jehovah: "With someone loyal you will act in loyalty."--Psalm 18:25.
Before Job was restored to a healthy state, Jehovah required that he pray in behalf of those who transgressed against him. What a fine example for us! Jehovah requires that we forgive those who sin against us before our own sins can be forgiven. (Matthew 6:12; Ephesians 4:32) If we are not willing to forgive others when there is sound basis for doing so, can we rightly expect Jehovah to be merciful to us? (Matthew 18:21-35)
All of us face trials at one time or another. (2 Timothy 3:12) Yet, like Job we can keep integrity. By doing so, we will reap a large reward. James wrote: "Look! We pronounce happy those who have endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome Jehovah gave, that Jehovah is very tender in affection and merciful."--James 5:11.
You think Job is a beautiful story? Let me guess, born a christian right? To non christians god looks like a scumbag in that story, not unlike most of the bible I suppose. Anyway, I thought about explaining the story of job to you from start to finish, but honestly I don't feel like it. You seem too hardheaded to grasp anything past your brainwashing so I can't be bothered. Long story short, the jist of it was "don't question things".
If you admit that some of it could be wrong, and you admit that you don't know what parts are right and which parts are wrong, then you have nullified the entire book.
Yay, another needlessly elaborate answer about how we aren't perfect and how perfect is somehow a bad thing (dispite the freaking definition of PERFECT!). If you're bored then you're not perfect now are you?
From the first god damn paragraph:
Apparently at the speaker's direction, the speech was not video taped by the Academy and so Forrest's may be the only record of what was said.
Pffft....You suck at this. Some person who may or may not be talking about a hypothetical situation has done nothing wrong. Free speech is free speech. Hitler was a Catholic, he believed he was doing god's work, he ACTUALLY exterminated people. Keep your moral bs to yourself next time.
Evidently it isn't. You just proved that with your crappy link.
A personal attack on your character? You lied. I was calling you on your actions of LYING. Calling you a liar immediately after you lie is simply stating a fact.
Not entirely true, but what's your point? Are you still saying that atheists have to have faith in abiogenesis?
Many tests and experiments have been run and we only seem to get closer and closer to becoming "god" ourselves. I have no faith, the evidence points to life coming from non-life. Just because we aren't sure of the specific origins and mechanics of life doesn't mean we should start inventing magical entities to fill in the gaps. Sure, I know it's easy...but it's also stupid.
"Hey how did the sun get above my house? It must have been god pushing it across the sky!"
It never occured to me that an atheist wouldn't believe that god created all living things. Very insightful. Maybe next you can explain how vegetarians don't actually eat meat! Fascinating stuff.