Yes, perhaps Adam and Eve really existed, but not as most of us believe. Their
place in real History is outweigthed by their simbolic roles in Christian
beliefs.
First, as I pointed out, if they really existed, they weren't the only Humans
alone on Earth. The Bible admits that.
The whole point of Adam being created by God, is that the Israeli then, and now
the Jews and all Humanity (well, the three monoteist religions at least) can
track their ancestor to a single link (Adam) that is a CREATION OF GOD.
This was important to the Jew as they were the Chosen People. A direct link
between Human and God. They inherited that oral tradition from their Caldean
ancestors, and it was like a "precuel" to the pact between Abraham and
God. In Christianity, that rol is overtaken by Jesus, being God and Human, at
least to most Christians.
When the Bible was written, Israeli knew well enough that kings from other
cultures (namely Egypt) considered themselves living gods. In the Genesis even
migthy nature powers as the stars and the sea were God's creation, and leaving
man at the last, is not only a simbol of "perfection" in this
creature, but a lesson as well, for themselves, that none could be considered
over God and the Law.
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were real. The Jews can track their ancestor until
that. We can infere that Abraham existed because we at least know that he was
from Ur (a real place) in Caldea. And the memory of his existence was preserved
trougth oral tradition. But the figure of Adam is needed to point that especial
relationship between Human and Creator.
NOW, THIS IS INTERESTING: to thier rejoice or disgust, both Creatinist and
Evolution fans converge in ONE point: THE MITOCONDRIAL EVE.
Mitocondries are primitive cells within our own cells. They live in symbiosis
with us since the first living beings appeared on Earth. They have their own
DNA. They are only inherited trouth the mother's line, because the ovule
"eats" and destroys the spermatozoids' ones.
The scientist have tracked (don't ask me how) the mitrocondial line, and have
come to the conclusion that there was a SINGLE MOTHER TO US ALL. So, after all,
we can at least say that there's a real Eve.
Now, racist are going to disagree. She lived in Africa (as evolution already
pointed out) thousands of yeas ago. She was a Homo Sapiens already. And
dark-skinned, of course. Hitler is surely spining in his grave.
Nuns don't like so much when I speak of this in my apostolate. Seminarists are
more open-minded. They love to debate.
I know that in your religion Bible is taken literally. But I recommend to you to
read the "Dawn of Humanity" articles of the National Geographic. They
won't convince you, but at least they are damn interesting.
Bye.
HUMBLE THANKS TO JOE KAISTOE AND CYBERFROGX. See you around.
Quote by cyberfrogXAs mireya2 hinted,
it is a general story, not as specific as most seem to think. The
"apple" represents the advent of man getting the "knowledge of
the angels". Many seem to think that this was science and reason. It was
not. Humans already possessed such capabilities. The knowledge that the Bible is
talking about is the ability to distinguish "Good" from
"Evil". This is not in the subjective sense of being wronged, for many
mammals possess that. This is the ability to judge an action of being wrong
regardless of who goes through with that action.
Okay, it
would seem you have knowledge of a timeline in which we as humans gained the
"knowledge of the angels". When did this occur in human history, when
did man gain the ability to tell between "Good" and "Evil".
BTW, there are other animals that are just like humans which can watch over
other animals selflessly. We're not the only ones.
Quote by mireya2Ooooh, man, the extremist
again.
Science doesn't contradict Religion. Neither the other way around. UNLESS YOU
WANT TO GO TO THE EXTREMES.
Adam- "The Man"
Eve- "The Woman"
That's the direct translation from Hebrew.
That means that they represent Humanity. They are simbols.
First, science dictates evolution, religions of the world
don't (as far as I know). Second, since you have found a reason (I'm having
trouble finding a reason) to re-interpret Genesis as symbolic rather than
literal, surely there must be another source for man's sinfulness. Could you
find a source for man's sinful nature? Perhaps it was God (assuming you believe
in God) who designed us to be inclined towards evil. If it was not he who
created us to be inclined towards evil, then what is the source of sin?
Quote by ProgramZEROThe reason people
do bad things are numerous. You don't need the bible to answer that question and
the belief that you do is simply dumb. The reason people do bad things like kill
or steal is because, depending on the circumstances, people want something they
can't get or they are being wronged. For example, if I was feeling greedy, a
natural human emotion, I would be more prone to stealing.
See
James 1:14, 15 "Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own
desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to
sin."
Again, the bible isn't necessary to answer such
philosophical questions.
Quote by ProgramZERODiseases are
caused sometimes by micro-organisms and sometimes by detrimental genes. Simple
science. As for death, it's a tough puzzle to crack but for you to point towards
Genesis for the answer is silly. Many other different religions and cultures
have an explanation for death but they are unsubstantiated just like the Adam
and Eve explanation.
Yup, many other different religions and cultures have an explanation for death..
but none of them can give satisfying answers...
What a sad mistake it would be to choose such deceptive human philosophy in
preference to acquiring true wisdom as a disciple of Jesus Christ, the
second-greatest person in the universe, next to God
himself!
Alright, I want you to tell me the difference
between Christian doctrine and other philosophical explanations for death.
If you ask me, I'd include Christian doctrine into the many other different
religions that do not offer a satisfying answer.
Quote by ProgramZEROYes, there is.
During the Cold War Era, everyone asked that question and we have been able to
get along and we have avoided WWIII. It's the same today, we can still make
friends out of our enemies.
Jeremiah 6:14: "They try to heal the breakdown of my people lightly,
saying, 'There is peace! There is peace!' when there is no peace."
Jeremiah 8:15: "There was a hoping for peace, but no good came; for a time
of healing, but, look! terror!"
And the threat of a nuclear holocaust still hangs over mankind. Clearly, the UN
is not the messenger of peace that mankind needs...
The
threat of nuclear war had always hung over mankind from the moment Oppenheimer
witnessed his creations' destructive power to today. The UN isn't the enemy,
nuclear proliferation is. In fact, the UN is our biggest hope for world peace. I
don't know what you think might be our best hope for world peace.
In any case, I'm not sure what biblical verses have to do with this discussion.
Maybe I'm not so good at this "quote" thing, but I used to be, so
maybe the page is failing. Or either I'm stupid. But lines that should appear as
other people's ones, appear outside the box, even as I did my best. And many
times. So, I started my answers with a NUMBER in order to not mix your lines and
mine's. Sorry.
Quote by ProgramZEROOkay, it would
seem you have knowledge of a timeline in which we as humans gained the
"knowledge of the angels". When did this occur in human history, when
did man gain the ability to tell between "Good" and "Evil".
BTW, there are other animals that are just like humans which can watch over
other animals selflessly. We're not the only ones.
1. It's not something that happened at once. The "forbidden fruit"
(it's symbolic: none has noticed that in Genesis it NEVER says it was an apple)
was a test. The trap that the devil set lyes in here: "YOU'LL BE AS
GODS". The same ambition that made Lucifer fell. Most readers oversee thise
lines. That was the trick, and the origin of sin. Not a little, inocent one, as
eating an apple or banana. ENVY. DESIRE OF UNLIMITED POWER. "You'll be like
gods".
How many tyrants have felt like gods in human history?
How many first world countries feel they have the rigth to invade and depredate
others, because their leaders fell mesianic?
How many scientis have ignored ethics, causing pain and death?
How many are small tyrants in their own homes and jobs, torturing other
people?
The ability to tell betwen "good" and "evil" comes rigth
with evolution and the dawn of civilization. With the gaining of concioussness.
As you should know, it is both a blessing and a curse, for us humans. What we
WOULD LIKE TO DO, and what we HAVE TO DO.
Quote by ProgramZEROFirst, science
dictates evolution, religions of the world don't (as far as I know). Second,
since you have found a reason (I'm having trouble finding a reason) to
re-interpret Genesis as symbolic rather than literal, surely there must be
another source for man's sinfulness. Could you find a source for man's sinful
nature? Perhaps it was God (assuming you believe in God) who designed us to be
inclined towards evil. If it was not he who created us to be inclined towards
evil, then what is the source of sin?
2. First, Evolution IS A FACT, that is STUDIED by Science. Not the other way
around. Heaven forbids that we Humans dictate evolution (read again the lines
above).
Second, I don't re-interpret the Bible. I'm a cathequist. I study and teach what
biblical authorities have written. They're not "just" priest. They're
antropoligists, psicologists, historians, intelectuals, teologists, writers,
etc; most especialized in the times every book was written, the costums, the
traditions, the way of thinking...
The source for human sinfulness? Dare to search, in silence, inside yourself.
Beware the mosnter you could be, but of course you aren't. Look at your
deeds.
Another ULTIMATE source? ALL religions, except New-Age and some modern sects,
agree in the existence of the devil. Not the guy with horns and dresses in red,
by the way, but a corrupter, an unfertile soul, a dark heart.
In Catholicism, God didn't made Human inclined to evil. He made Humans
perfectible. Not perfect, but with the potencial of aspiring to
perfection.
Of course, This belief is optional. But you have to sit and think, as those
phylosophers did, to get to an own answer. And yes, I believe in God.
Quote by ProgramZEROThe reason people
do bad things are numerous. You don't need the bible to answer that question and
the belief that you do is simply dumb. The reason people do bad things like kill
or steal is because, depending on the circumstances, people want something they
can't get or they are being wronged. For example, if I was feeling greedy, a
natural human emotion, I would be more prone to stealing.
See
James 1:14, 15 "Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own
desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to
sin."
Again, the bible isn't necessary to answer such
philosophical questions.
3. As ANY good physlosophy, as they are, any religion is a VALID THEORY. Of
course, there are, as I explained before, biological and phsycological reasons.
But if you want to go to the ULTIMATE REASONS (the goal of Phylosophy) of evil,
you'll have to search for something BEYOND material. In the case of religion, a
corrupter.
By the way, EVIL IS THE LACKNESS OF GOODNESS, as cold is lackness of heat and
darkness the lack of ligth.
Quote by ProgramZERODiseases are
caused sometimes by micro-organisms and sometimes by detrimental genes. Simple
science. As for death, it's a tough puzzle to crack but for you to point towards
Genesis for the answer is silly. Many other different religions and cultures
have an explanation for death but they are unsubstantiated just like the Adam
and Eve explanation.
Yup, many other different religions and cultures have an explanation for death..
but none of them can give satisfying answers...
What a sad mistake it would be to choose such deceptive human philosophy in
preference to acquiring true wisdom as a disciple of Jesus Christ, the
second-greatest person in the universe, next to God
himself!
Alright, I want you to tell me the difference
between Christian doctrine and other philosophical explanations for death.
If you ask me, I'd include Christian doctrine into the many other different
religions that do not offer a satisfying answer.
4. I answered this with the "ULTIMATE CAUSE OF THINGS" that Phylosophy
searchs for... if someone if not curious enough to continue asking
"why?", Science is enough. You are in the other side of the same coin,
of the fanatical for whom religion should be taken literally.
Science brings KNOWDLEDGE, NOT WISDOM. That's more difficult to get, and, I tell
you by experience, most people never find it at all.
Maybe I'm not so good at this "quote" thing, but I used to be, so
maybe the page is failing. Or either I'm stupid. But lines that should appear as
other people's ones, appear outside the box, even as I did my best. And many
times. So, I started my answers with a NUMBER in order to not mix your lines and
mine's. Sorry.
It happens to me too so don't worry about it. It's really
annoying when it happens and you just... can't... fix it!
Quote by ProgramZEROOkay, it would
seem you have knowledge of a timeline in which we as humans gained the
"knowledge of the angels". When did this occur in human history, when
did man gain the ability to tell between "Good" and "Evil".
BTW, there are other animals that are just like humans which can watch over
other animals selflessly. We're not the only ones.
1. It's not something that happened at once. The "forbidden fruit"
(it's symbolic: none has noticed that in Genesis it NEVER says it was an apple)
was a test. The trap that the devil set lyes in here: "YOU'LL BE AS
GODS". The same ambition that made Lucifer fell. Most readers oversee thise
lines. That was the trick, and the origin of sin. Not a little, inocent one, as
eating an apple or banana. ENVY. DESIRE OF UNLIMITED POWER. "You'll be like
gods".
How many tyrants have felt like gods in human history?
How many first world countries feel they have the rigth to invade and depredate
others, because their leaders fell mesianic?
How many scientis have ignored ethics, causing pain and death?
How many are small tyrants in their own homes and jobs, torturing other
people?
The ability to tell betwen "good" and "evil" comes rigth
with evolution and the dawn of civilization. With the gaining of concioussness.
As you should know, it is both a blessing and a curse, for us humans. What we
WOULD LIKE TO DO, and what we HAVE TO DO.
Hmm, but if both
Adam and Eve were not able to tell between what was right and what was wrong,
why blame them for eating the forbidden fruit? They didn't know what they were
doing was wrong. Why wouldn't God punish Lucifer as opposed to the HUMAN RACE
which was not responsible for the fall! It's like me punishing the son of a mass
murderer.
You know, in all of history, most scientists studied and did nothing more. I'm
sure you could find some irresponsible scientific minds in history but most are
just making observations and writing papers. I don't think you wanna group
scientists in with historically oppressive figures.
Quote by ProgramZEROFirst, science
dictates evolution, religions of the world don't (as far as I know). Second,
since you have found a reason (I'm having trouble finding a reason) to
re-interpret Genesis as symbolic rather than literal, surely there must be
another source for man's sinfulness. Could you find a source for man's sinful
nature? Perhaps it was God (assuming you believe in God) who designed us to be
inclined towards evil. If it was not he who created us to be inclined towards
evil, then what is the source of sin?
2. First, Evolution IS A FACT, that is STUDIED by Science. Not the other way
around. Heaven forbids that we Humans dictate evolution (read again the lines
above).
What I meant by 'dictates' was that science preaches
that evolution occurred.
Quote by mireya2Second, I don't
re-interpret the Bible. I'm a cathequist. I study and teach what biblical
authorities have written. They're not "just" priest. They're
antropoligists, psicologists, historians, intelectuals, teologists, writers,
etc; most especialized in the times every book was written, the costums, the
traditions, the way of thinking...
So you don't read the
bible? You read what OTHER people write about the bible? And if you study your
history, you will know that people back then were not very intelligent. You,
telling me that these people who specialize in the customs, traditions, and the
way of thinking of people who lived at a time when the Earth was believed to be
flat would know what 'God' wanted is simply foolish.
Quote by mireya2The source for human
sinfulness? Dare to search, in silence, inside yourself. Beware the mosnter you
could be, but of course you aren't. Look at your deeds.
What
does this mean? Me search inside myself? I haven't done anything wrong as far as
I know.
Quote by mireya2Another ULTIMATE source?
ALL religions, except New-Age and some modern sects, agree in the existence of
the devil. Not the guy with horns and dresses in red, by the way, but a
corrupter, an unfertile soul, a dark heart.
So ALL religions
are paranoid? You gotta have faith in humanity, not a fictional deity.
Quote by ProgramZEROAgain, the bible
isn't necessary to answer such philosophical
questions.
3. As ANY good physlosophy, as they are, any religion is a VALID THEORY. Of
course, there are, as I explained before, biological and phsycological reasons.
But if you want to go to the ULTIMATE REASONS (the goal of Phylosophy) of evil,
you'll have to search for something BEYOND material. In the case of religion, a
corrupter.
So we have to find a "corrupter"? No,
the truth is that Earth isn't a perfect place to live in. If the Earth was
fine-tuned to our liking, there wouldn't as many wars as there are in human
history. The needs and wants of all humans on Earth cannot be met and therefore
there is conflict.
By the way, EVIL IS THE LACKNESS OF GOODNESS, as cold is lackness of heat and
darkness the lack of ligth.
Quote by ProgramZEROAlright, I want
you to tell me the difference between Christian doctrine and other philosophical
explanations for death.
If you ask me, I'd include Christian doctrine into the many other different
religions that do not offer a satisfying answer.
4. I answered this with the "ULTIMATE CAUSE OF THINGS" that Phylosophy
searchs for... if someone if not curious enough to continue asking
"why?", Science is enough. You are in the other side of the same coin,
of the fanatical for whom religion should be taken literally.
Science brings KNOWDLEDGE, NOT WISDOM. That's more difficult to get, and, I tell
you by experience, most people never find it at all.
Wisdom
comes from rationality. According to religion, the problems of the world could
be blamed on a 'corrupter' which I couldn't agree with 100% of the time. Sure
there are many problems in the world but they all can't be blamed on people.
Well, I don't have anything against mireya2, then again I don't know if anyone
cares, anyways my main issue is Ingram.
Quote: Some of the main hurdles, or
factors, affecting man's life expectancy are habits, environment, and medical
care...
Not explaining anything... sorry...
Quote: God-fearing men see in
animals part of God's generous provision for human welfare. Animals have served
man as burden bearers, as sources of food and clothing, as sanitation agents,
and as helpers in the vital activities of plowing and harvesting. Their variety
of form and color has delighted his eye; their habits and instincts have been
and still are an extensive field for inquiry into the marvels of God's creative
work. Though animals die in the same manner as man, they do not share his hope
of a resurrection. (2 Peter 2:12)
So, are animals just tools? I find that rather cruel... Also, does that mean god
just makes stuff for his on amusement. Plus, why won't animals think about
"resurrection" and how would you know if god does or doesn't care
about his animals? If god was to be all caring, then why should he omit what he
made?
Quote: What chaos? Reason tells us
that God must soon act to save the earth from man's ruinous activities, and
Bible prophecy confirms this. But what will he do? The Bible says that he will
"bring to ruin those ruining the earth." (Revelation 11:18) Just as a
landlord ejects a destructive tenant, so God will "eject" those who
ruin his beautiful creation, the earth...
The Bible states: "As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the
very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it."
(Proverbs 2:22) This coming divine action the Bible calls Armageddon.
(Revelation 16:16) Jesus also called it "great tribulation such as has not
occurred since the world's beginning until now, no, nor will occur again."
(Matthew 24:21) It will be even greater than the Flood... [/quote[
Chaos as in an upcomming of a new religion. If this religion wasn't created,
then the Crusades would not have taken place as immense as this. Also, if you do
not see chaos, then why is this a debate?
Quote: Did perfection require that
Adam and Eve be unable to do wrong? The maker of a robot expects it to do
exactly what he has programmed it to do. But a perfect robot would not be a
perfect human. The qualities viewed as essential are not the same. Adam and Eve
were humans, not robots. To humankind, God gave the ability to choose between
right and wrong, between obedience and disobedience, to make moral decisions.
Since this is the way humans were designed, the inability to make such decisions
(and not an unwise decision) is what would have indicated imperfection. (Compare
Deuteronomy 30:19, 20; Joshua 24:15)
When I said in harmony, I did not say perfect. By in sync with one, you know how
the other feels, if they were in perfect harmony, then adam and even would know
why not to eat the apple...
Quote: It's a sad thing you haven't
learned from my post...
Thanks for your patiente, programZERO, and hi again.
Quote by ProgramZEROHmm, but if both
Adam and Eve were not able to tell between what was right and what was wrong,
why blame them for eating the forbidden fruit? They didn't know what they were
doing was wrong. Why wouldn't God punish Lucifer as opposed to the HUMAN RACE
which was not responsible for the fall! It's like me punishing the son of a mass
murderer?
I say: Hmmm. Good point. How could they know? I was reading the Bible we use in
cathecism "LA BIBLIA LATINOAMERICA"(well, it's in Spanish, but it's
available in the U.S. too).
1. Well, God cursed the serpent (Lucifer).
2. He also cursed the Earth.
3. But HE DIDN'T CURSED HUMANITY. Because, despite anything the Enemy should do,
could distort the original plan of God.
All is symbolic. Written not by scientists, but by wisemen. Science almost
didn't exist, all they got was Alquemy, at best. They tried to discern an origin
for everything, it DIDN'T MATTER if it came from evolution (they couln't have
the sligthest idea) or creationism or hocus-pocus, what really mattered is that
it CAME FROM GOD.
The Bible says that the woman looked at the fruit, and desired it, and that it
wasd good to EAT. In aramean, wich had very few words, EAT AND LEARN was the
same verb (I got that from the Bible, I'm not an eminence, of course).
They desired the FORBIDEN. Knowledge was surely God would have given to them,
but first they had to be tested, to renounce to that knowledge so they could be
worthy of getting it, first renuncing to it.
The whole point is that Adm and Eve DOUBTED the words of God. They listened to
Lucifer instead. But bear in mind that they were WARNED before, as you do with a
child. And if the child dissobeys, he/she gets reprimend.
Of course, it's symblolic
I know it may sound unfair, but in any country, having not knowledge of a law,
it's not an excuse to break it.
I have to think about it.
Quote by ProgramZEROYou know, in all
of history, most scientists studied and did nothing more. I'm sure you could
find some irresponsible scientific minds in history but most are just making
observations and writing papers. I don't think you wanna group scientists in
with historically oppressive figures.
You're rigth. At the time I was thinknig of an article I had read about some
abuse in animal experimentation. But you're rigth.
Quote by ProgramZEROWhat I meant by
'dictates' was that science preaches that evolution
occurred.
Okey.
Quote by ProgramZEROSo you don't read
the bible? You read what OTHER people write about the bible? And if you study
your history, you will know that people back then were not very intelligent.
You, telling me that these people who specialize in the customs, traditions, and
the way of thinking of people who lived at a time when the Earth was believed to
be flat would know what 'God' wanted is simply
foolish.
Nope. The Bible I read is a Catholic edition, especial for Latinamerica and for
Catequist. It's especial for this, with a lot of footnotes, explanations, croos
references and tablets. There's also the "Whorkshop Bible".
But people back then WERE INTELLIGENT. They didn't have meants to know what we
know now. But they were wise. Iluminated. The Bible started to be written at the
times of king David. Their cultura was already advanced. Not very much, of
course. BUT WISENESS IS AS VALID AS SCIENCE, not in the same plane, but in
everyday life.
Quote by ProgramZEROI haven't done
anything wrong as far as I know.
Not yet... Bwahahaha! No, maybe you're young but you will have to choose among
many paths. Haven't crossed your mind, having something fragile and preecious in
your hands, as a flower, a kitten, a puppy or even a baby, to sudenly destry it?
It's an example, not that you our I are going to do it. But thougts like this
crosses Human's mind once in a while.
Usually, we, to silence those inner demonds, sorround ourselves with noise:
parties, loud music, social activities, sports, art etc. But they are inside,
lurking, waiting. They're our particular Mr. Hyde.
Quote by ProgramZEROSo ALL religions
are paranoid? You gotta have faith in humanity, not a fictional
deity.
No paranoid, they recognize a corrupter. And in Christianity, to have faith in
God, you have to get faith in Humanity first. It's not easy, it's a lot easier
to lock yourself in a chapel and pray all day. But the path to God is in the
OTHER PEOPLE
Because the others, your fellows, are THE REPRESENTATIVES OF GOD ON EARTH. God
is NEVER FAR AWAY FROM YOU. He's next to you. In disguise. Wating for your help,
your love, you consolation.
Quote by ProgramZEROSo we have to
find a "corrupter"? No, the truth is that Earth isn't a perfect place
to live in. If the Earth was fine-tuned to our liking, there wouldn't as many
wars as there are in human history. The needs and wants of all humans on Earth
cannot be met and therefore there is conflict.
Well, I have no proof, but the originsl plan was to have A PERFECT UNIVERSE.
Because God wouldn't want aniything imperfect. And, as I told you, death is not
an entity, is the lackness of life. But something happened, and entrophy existed
in the Universe, illness, death, virus and bactria and parasits
evolved.
Quote by ProgramZEROWisdom comes from
rationality. According to religion, the problems of the world could be blamed on
a 'corrupter' which I couldn't agree with 100% of the time. Sure there are many
problems in the world but they all can't be blamed on
people.
Wisdom doesn't come from rationality at 100%. It's has a dosis of poetry. It's a
gift, given either to a child or an oldman. There's a little example... I'm
sorry, it's from the Bible. It's the story of Daniel, as a child, and Susana.
It's usually at the end of the book, it's a Deuterocanonich, so you won't find
it in a Jewish or Witnesses' Bible.
And for blaming on the people... uhmmm. It's something to think about it,
too.
But have for sure there's a corrupter.
I recomend you to read "The Silmarillion", by J.R.R. Tolkien, kind of
a precuel to "The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings". He
was Catholic, but combined in his fictional world both Cristhian and Celtic
values and beliefs. I recomend it, because he recreates the image and thougts of
the devil in a way you won't find in the Bible. But i is damn well written.
Quote by mireya2Thanks for your patiente,
programZERO, and hi again.
Quote by ProgramZEROHmm, but if both
Adam and Eve were not able to tell between what was right and what was wrong,
why blame them for eating the forbidden fruit? They didn't know what they were
doing was wrong. Why wouldn't God punish Lucifer as opposed to the HUMAN RACE
which was not responsible for the fall! It's like me punishing the son of a mass
murderer?
The whole point is that Adm and Eve DOUBTED the words of God. They listened to
Lucifer instead. But bear in mind that they were WARNED before, as you do with a
child. And if the child dissobeys, he/she gets
reprimend.
Yes, but Adam and Eve didn't know that disobeying
God was wrong or listening to Lucifer. Remember, it was only after they ate the
fruit that they were able to distinguish between right and wrong.
Quote by ProgramZEROSo you don't read
the bible? You read what OTHER people write about the bible? And if you study
your history, you will know that people back then were not very intelligent.
You, telling me that these people who specialize in the customs, traditions, and
the way of thinking of people who lived at a time when the Earth was believed to
be flat would know what 'God' wanted is simply foolish.
Nope. The Bible I read is a Catholic edition, especial for Latinamerica and for
Catequist. It's especial for this, with a lot of footnotes, explanations, croos
references and tablets. There's also the "Whorkshop Bible".
But people back then WERE INTELLIGENT. They didn't have meants to know what we
know now. But they were wise. Iluminated. The Bible started to be written at the
times of king David. Their cultura was already advanced. Not very much, of
course. BUT WISENESS IS AS VALID AS SCIENCE, not in the same plane, but in
everyday life.
And where did these "wisemen" get
their wisdom from?
Quote by ProgramZEROI haven't done
anything wrong as far as I know.
Not yet... Bwahahaha! No, maybe you're young but you will have to choose among
many paths. Haven't crossed your mind, having something fragile and preecious in
your hands, as a flower, a kitten, a puppy or even a baby, to sudenly destry it?
It's an example, not that you our I are going to do it. But thougts like this
crosses Human's mind once in a while.
Usually, we, to silence those inner demonds, sorround ourselves with noise:
parties, loud music, social activities, sports, art etc. But they are inside,
lurking, waiting. They're our particular Mr. Hyde.
No. If the
thought of hurting living things crosses your mind then maybe there are some
inner demons you must conquer. In the end though, it's if you act on these
feelings that matters.
Quote by mireya2Yes, perhaps Adam and Eve
really existed, but not as most of us believe. Their place in real History is
outweigthed by their simbolic roles in Christian
beliefs.
They're not symbolic, if you pay more attention on the context of Genesis,
you'll realize that Adam & Eve were the first human pair on
earth...
Quote: First, as I pointed out, if
they really existed, they weren't the only Humans alone on Earth. The Bible
admits that.
The Bible does not support your view... if the Bible admits that, what text? If
you post only one text, I'll stop in this forum... But if I post 1 to 5 texts in
the Bible that Adam & Eve were the first human pair, you'll admit in this
forum that your belief is wrong & unscriptural..
Quote: The whole point of Adam
being created by God, is that the Israeli then, and now the Jews and all
Humanity (well, the three monoteist religions at least) can track their ancestor
to a single link (Adam) that is a CREATION OF GOD.
All mankind descended from the first human pair, Adam and Eve. After the Flood,
earth's new population, including all the races and national groups on earth
today, descended from Noah through his three sons and their wives, who were
survivors of that global Deluge. Thus, after listing 70 offspring of the sons of
Noah, the Genesis account says: "From these
the nations were spread about in the earth." (Genesis
10:32)
Quote: I know that in your religion
Bible is taken literally.
Youre' wrong, Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that everything in the Bible is to be taken literally. We take
the balanced, commonsense view, which is indeed the Scriptural view, that, while
the Bible has many direct, literal statements, such as the laws it gives to
govern the Christian's life, much in that Book is symbolic or figurative...
__________________________________
Quote by ProgramZERO[/quoteAgain,
the bible isn't necessary to answer such philosophical
questions.
Philosophies come from people who have limitations: The Bible informs us:
"It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step."
(Jeremiah 10:23) History testifies that trying to ignore that limitation has not
produced good results. On one occasion, "Jehovah proceeded to answer Job
out of the windstorm and say: 'Who is this that is obscuring counsel by words
without knowledge? Gird up your loins, please, like an able-bodied man, and let
me question you, and you inform me. Where did you happen to be when I founded
the earth? Tell me, if you do know understanding.'" (Job 38:1-4)
Humans by nature have limitations. Additionally, their experience in life is
relatively brief and is usually confined to one culture or one environment. The
knowledge they possess is thus restricted, and everything is interconnected to
such an extent that they constantly find aspects that they had not adequately
considered. Any philosophy that they originate will reflect these
limitations...
Philosophies are developed by humans who are imperfect: "All have sinned
and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) "There exists a way
that is upright before a man, but the ways of death are the end of it
afterward." (Proverbs 14:12)
Because of such imperfection, human philosophies often reflect a basic
selfishness that leads perhaps to momentary pleasure but also to frustration and
much unhappiness...
Philosophies are influenced by demonic spirits: "The whole world is lying
in the power of the wicked one." (1 John 5:19) "The one called Devil
and Satan . . . is misleading the entire inhabited earth." (Revelation
12:9) "You at one time walked according to the system of things of this
world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit that now
operates in the sons of disobedience." (Ephesians 2:2)
Philosophies that encourage people to disobey God's wholesome and upright
requirements reflect such an influence. No wonder that, as history testifies,
human philosophies and schemes have often brought grief to large segments of
humankind...
Quote by ProgramZEROAlright, I want
you to tell me the difference between Christian doctrine and other philosophical
explanations for death.
If you ask me, I'd include Christian doctrine into the many other different
religions that do not offer a satisfying answer.
Throughout history, man has stood perplexed and apprehensive before the dark
prospect of death. What is more, fear of death has been fueled by a mix of false
religious ideas, popular customs, and ingrained personal beliefs. The problem
with fear of death is that it can paralyze one?s ability to enjoy life and erode
one?s confidence that there is meaning to life...
Popular religion is especially reprehensible for promoting a number of popular
myths regarding death. By examining a few of these under the light of Bible
truth, see if your personal perceptions about death can be clarified...
Myth 1: Death is the natural end of life.
"Death . . . is an integral part of our lives," says the book
Death--The Final Stage of Growth. Comments like this reflect the belief that
death is normal, the natural ending of all living organisms. In turn, such a
belief has fostered a nihilistic philosophy and opportunistic behavior in
many...
In view of man's general reaction to death, his amazing potential for
remembering and learning, and his inward longing for eternity, is it not clear
that he was made to live? Indeed, God created humans, not with death as the
natural outcome, but with the prospect of living on indefinitely. Note what God
set before the first human pair as their future: "Be fruitful and become
many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the
sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is
moving upon the earth." (Genesis 1:28)
Myth 2: God takes people in death to be with him.
A 27-year-old mother who was dying and leaving three children behind told a
Catholic nun: "Don't come in and tell me this is God's will for me. . . . I
hate it when somebody else tells me this." Yet, this is what many religions
teach about death--that God takes people to be near him...
Is the Creator really so cruel that he would callously inflict death on us,
knowing that this breaks our hearts? No, not the God of the Bible. According to
1 John 4:8, "God is love." Note that it does not say that God has love
or that God is loving, but it says that God is love. So intense, so pure, so
perfect is God's love, so thoroughly does it permeate his personality and
actions that he may rightly be spoken of as the very personification of love.
This is not a God who takes people in death to be near him...
False religion has left many confused as to the whereabouts and condition of the
dead. Heaven, hell, purgatory, Limbo--these and various other destinations range
from being incomprehensible to being downright terrifying. The Bible, on the
other hand, tells us that the dead are unconscious; they are in a condition best
compared to sleep. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; John 11:11-14) Thus, we need not worry
about what happens to us after death, any more than we worry when we see someone
sleeping soundly. Jesus spoke of a time when "all those in the memorial
tombs" would "come out" to renewed life on a paradise earth.
(John 5:28, 29; Luke 23:43)
Myth 3: God takes little children to become angels.
Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, who studied terminally ill individuals, referred to
another common perception among religious people. Describing a real incident,
she stated that it is "unwise to tell a little child who lost her brother
that God loved little boys so much that he took little Johnny to heaven."
Such a statement casts God in a bad light and does not reflect his personality
and behavior. Dr. Kubler-Ross continued: "When this little girl grew up to
be a woman she never solved her anger at God, which resulted in a psychotic
depression when she lost her own little son three decades later."
Why would God snatch a child to get another angel--as if God needed a child more
than the child?s parents did? If it were true that God takes children, would
that not make him an unloving, selfish Creator? Contrary to such a perception,
the Bible says: "Love is from God." (1 John 4:7) Would a God of love
cause a loss that even humans with any measure of decency would not
tolerate?
So why do children die? Part of the Bible's answer is recorded at Ecclesiastes
9:11: "Time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all." And Psalm 51:5
tells us that all of us are imperfect, sinful, from the time of our conception,
and the eventuality for all men now is death from any number of causes.
Sometimes death strikes before birth, resulting in a stillbirth. In other cases,
children succumb to their dire circumstances or have accidents and die. God is
not responsible for such eventualities...
Myth 4: Some people are tormented after death.
Many religions teach that the wicked will go to a fiery hell and be tormented
forever. Is this teaching logical and Scriptural? The human life span is limited
to 70 or 80 years. Even if someone was guilty of extreme wickedness all his
life, would everlasting torment be a just punishment? No. It would be grossly
unjust to torment a man forever for the sins that he committed in a short
lifetime...
Only God can reveal what happens after people die, and he has done so in his
written Word, the Bible. This is what the Bible says: "As the [beast] dies,
so the [man] dies; and they all have but one spirit . . . All are going to one
place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the
dust." (Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20) There is no mention here of a fiery hell.
Humans return to dust--to nonexistence--when they die...
In order to be tormented, a person has to be conscious. Are the dead conscious?
Once again, the Bible gives the answer: "The living are conscious that they
will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do
they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been
forgotten." (Ecclesiastes 9:5) It is impossible for the dead, who are
"conscious of nothing at all," to experience agony
anywhere...
Myth 5: Death means the permanent end of our existence.
We cease to exist when we die, but this does not mean that everything is
necessarily finished. The faithful man Job knew that he would go to the grave,
Sheol, when he died. But listen to his prayer to God: "O that in Sheol you
would conceal me, that you would keep me secret until your anger turns back,
that you would set a time limit for me and remember me! If an able-bodied man
dies can he live again? . . . You will call, and I myself shall answer
you." (Job 14:13-15)
Job believed that if he was faithful until death, he would be remembered by God
and in time be resurrected. This was the belief of all of God's servants in
ancient times. Jesus himself confirmed this hope and showed that God would use
him to raise the dead. Christ's own words give us this assurance: "The hour
is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear [Jesus'] voice and
come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who
practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment." (John 5:28,
29)
Very shortly God will remove all wickedness and establish a new world under
heavenly rulership. (Psalm 37:10, 11; Daniel 2:44; Revelation 16:14, 16) The
result will be a paradise over the whole earth, inhabited by people who serve
God. In the Bible we read: "I heard a loud voice from the throne say:
'Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they
will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out
every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor
outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.'"
(Revelation 21:3, 4)
Quote by ProgramZEROThe threat of
nuclear war had always hung over mankind from the moment Oppenheimer witnessed
his creations' destructive power to today. The UN isn't the enemy, nuclear
proliferation is. In fact, the UN is our biggest hope for world peace. I don't
know what you think might be our best hope for world
peace.
The United Nations does not have the ability to bring world peace. Its members
and supporters are all imperfect humans, notwithstanding their lofty goals. The
Bible says that "to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not
belong to man who is walking even to direct his step." (Jeremiah 10:23)
Furthermore, God warns: "Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of
earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs." (Psalm 146:3)
The Bible foretells what Jehovah will accomplish through his Son, the
"Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6, 7 states: "There has been a child
born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to
be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty
God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. To the abundance of the princely rule and
to peace there will be no end."
The nations of the world have been wearied by years of frustrated efforts. Very
soon they will destroy harlotlike religious organizations. Then Jesus Christ,
the "King of kings and Lord of lords," and his army of heavenly
warriors will dissolve all human governments and put to death all who reject
God's sovereignty. (Revelation 19:11-21; Daniel 2:44) By this means Jehovah God
will bring about a world without war...
___________________________________
Quote by DarkRoseofHellSo, are
animals just tools? I find that rather cruel... Also, does that mean god just
makes stuff for his on amusement. Plus, why won't animals think about
"resurrection" and how would you know if god does or doesn't care
about his animals? If god was to be all caring, then why should he omit what he
made?
DarkRoseofHell this text is for you:
"For the thoughts
of you people are not my thoughts, nor are my ways your ways," is the
utterance of Jehovah. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my
ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your
thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)
God allows us to benefit from the animals. Bible principles allow us to kill
animals to provide food and clothing or to protect ourselves from harm. (Genesis
3:21; 9:3; Exodus 21:28) However, life is sacred to God. Our dominion over the animals must be exercised in a
balanced way that shows respect for life. The Bible speaks negatively of
a man named Nimrod, who apparently killed animals and perhaps humans for the
sheer thrill of it. (Genesis 10:9)
Jesus spoke of God's concern for animals in these words: "Five sparrows
sell for two coins of small value, do they not? Yet not one of them goes
forgotten before God." (Luke 12:6) Also, when changing his mind about
destroying a city full of practicers of wickedness who had repented, God himself
said: "Ought I not to feel sorry for Nineveh the great city, in which there
exist more than one hundred and twenty thousand men . . . , besides many
domestic animals?" (Jonah 4:11) Obviously, he does not regard animals as
just disposable items, to be thrown away at will...
When giving the Israelites laws, God taught them proper care of animals. He
required them to return a stray animal to its owner and to help animals in
distress. (Exodus 23:4, 5) Animals were to benefit from a Sabbath rest, just
like humans. (Exodus 23:12) There were laws governing the proper treatment of
farm animals. (Deuteronomy 22:10; 25:4) Obviously, animals were to be cared for
and guarded, not exploited...
Proverbs 12:10 explicitly states God's viewpoint: "The righteous one is
caring for the soul of his domestic animal, but the mercies of the wicked ones
are cruel." A Bible commentary renders this verse as follows: "A
righteous man's kindness extends even to dumb animals, but a wicked man is
cruel, even when he thinks he is being most gentle."--Believer's Bible Commentary, by William
MacDonald.
The righteous man treats animals with kindness and seeks to know their needs. A
wicked person may vocally express love for animals, but his "mercies,"
at best, are actually cruel. His actions betray the selfish motive he has in
mind. How true this is of those who pit one animal against another in hopes of
winning money!
True, God's original purpose was that man have "in subjection the fish of
the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that
is moving upon the earth." (Genesis 1:28) Cruelty to animals has no place
in that purpose. The inhuman treatment of animals will not go on forever. We
have reason to believe that God will stop all unnecessary suffering...
He promises to do away with wicked and cruel people. (Proverbs 2:22) Regarding
the animals, Hosea 2:18 says: "I shall certainly conclude a covenant in
that day in connection with the wild beast of the field and with the flying
creature of the heavens and the creeping thing of the ground." How
wonderful it will be to live during that time, when peaceful conditions will
benefit not only upright humans but also the animals!
Quote: God allows us to benefit
from the animals. Bible principles allow us to kill animals to provide food and
clothing or to protect ourselves from harm. (Genesis 3:21; 9:3; Exodus 21:28)
However, life is sacred to God. Our dominion over the animals must be exercised
in a balanced way that shows respect for life. The Bible speaks negatively of a
man named Nimrod, who apparently killed animals and perhaps humans for the sheer
thrill of it. (Genesis 10:9)
I don't see how we're sharing anything to the animals. If we are, then why are
there extinct animals that we cause? Also, if life is sacred to god, then why
shall we die?
Quote: Jesus spoke of God's concern
for animals in these words: "Five sparrows sell for two coins of small
value, do they not? Yet not one of them goes forgotten before God." (Luke
12:6) Also, when changing his mind about destroying a city full of practicers of
wickedness who had repented, God himself said: "Ought I not to feel sorry
for Nineveh the great city, in which there exist more than one hundred and
twenty thousand men . . . , besides many domestic animals?" (Jonah 4:11)
Obviously, he does not regard animals as just disposable items, to be thrown
away at will...
If he doesn't allow it, then why are we doing it? If mankind was to be made in
the face of god, then why this?
Quote: When giving the Israelites
laws, God taught them proper care of animals. He required them to return a stray
animal to its owner and to help animals in distress. (Exodus 23:4, 5) Animals
were to benefit from a Sabbath rest, just like humans. (Exodus 23:12) There were
laws governing the proper treatment of farm animals. (Deuteronomy 22:10; 25:4)
Obviously, animals were to be cared for and guarded, not
exploited...
Umm... question one, did god present himself to the Isrealites? Question two, if
so then why is the questioning of god in place. Question three, if animals were
to be cared, then probably the only ones who do care are vegans...
i have an easier answer (maybe) for some of your questions,
DarkRoseofHell
Quote by DarkRoseofHell
I don't see how we're sharing anything to the animals. If we are, then why are
there extinct animals that we cause? Also, if life is sacred to god, then why
shall we die?
Extinctions are caused by our carelessness, and we DO take things for granted,
you see, usually until it's too late.. we die because we sin.
Quote: Umm... question one, did god
present himself to the Isrealites? Question two, if so then why is the
questioning of god in place. Question three, if animals were to be cared, then
probably the only ones who do care are vegans...
Q1 : yes. God did presented himself, but showing only his back
Q2 : since he presented himself, there is God
Q3 : vegans do not necessarily care for animals. we care animals mostly because
of their service to us, (mostly as food tho). you see, try making the government
mass kill chickens without any aparent reason, and especially not for food. then
people probably will go demonstration
Quote by ProgramZEROAgain, the bible
isn't necessary to answer such philosophical
questions.
Philosophies come from people who have limitations. Philosophies that encourage
people to disobey God's wholesome and upright requirements reflect such an
influence. No wonder that, as history testifies, human philosophies and schemes
have often brought grief to large segments of
humankind...
But isn't religion a type of philosopy? And you
know, religion has caused wars to break out also, as history would
testify.
Quote by ProgramZEROAlright, I want
you to tell me the difference between Christian doctrine and other philosophical
explanations for death.
If you ask me, I'd include Christian doctrine into the many other different
religions that do not offer a satisfying answer.
Throughout history, man has stood perplexed and apprehensive before the dark
prospect of death. What is more, fear of death has been fueled by a mix of false
religious ideas, popular customs, and ingrained personal beliefs. The problem
with fear of death is that it can paralyze one's ability to enjoy life and erode
one's confidence that there is meaning to life...
Popular religion is especially reprehensible for promoting a number of popular
myths regarding death. By examining a few of these under the light of Bible
truth, see if your personal perceptions about death can be
clarified...
Well, actually, I'm not Christian (in case you
didn't know), what I'm asking is why should the bible hold the truth about death
and not other religious texts?
Quote by ProgramZEROThe threat of
nuclear war had always hung over mankind from the moment Oppenheimer witnessed
his creations' destructive power to today. The UN isn't the enemy, nuclear
proliferation is. In fact, the UN is our biggest hope for world peace. I don't
know what you think might be our best hope for world
peace.
The United Nations does not have the ability to bring
world peace. Its members and supporters are all imperfect humans,
notwithstanding their lofty goals.
No, the UN isn't perfect
but for you to say that the UN doesn't have the ability to prevent war is
ludicrous. All throughout the Cold War, we have avoided war with the Soviet
Union due to the fact that we were able to talk things out. The UN does the same
thing today. It helps sort things out between countries.
Quote by DarkIngramThen Jesus Christ,
the "King of kings and Lord of lords," and his army of heavenly
warriors will dissolve all human governments and put to death all who reject
God's sovereignty. (Revelation 19:11-21; Daniel 2:44) By this means Jehovah God
will bring about a world without war...
Well, again, I'm not
Christian so I don't pay attention to what the bible says, no offense, that's
just me.
Quote: Q1 : yes. God did presented
himself, but showing only his back
Q2 : since he presented himself, there is God
Q3 : vegans do not necessarily care for animals. we care animals mostly because
of their service to us, (mostly as food tho). you see, try making the government
mass kill chickens without any aparent reason, and especially not for food. then
people probably will go demonstration
Umm... you know that most vegetarians ( or vegan ) don't eat meat because they
don't want to harm an animal...
If he presented himself, where's the proof, also if his back is showing, how do
we know if it even is god...
Quote: Extinctions are caused by
our carelessness, and we DO take things for granted, you see, usually until it's
too late.. we die because we sin.
Quote by DarkRoseofHellUmm... you
know that most vegetarians ( or vegan ) don't eat meat because they don't want
to harm an animal...
you mean the Buddhist mostly? actually, most people now did that for the sake of
religion instead of those... this case is somewhat like christmas, which already
lost its meaning to many people.
Quote: If he presented himself,
where's the proof, also if his back is showing, how do we know if it even is
god...
the bible says so.... ill go n quote if u really wan me to
Quote by DarkRoseofHellI don't see
how we're sharing anything to the animals. If we are, then why are there extinct
animals that we cause? Also, if life is sacred to god, then why shall we
die?
Adam and Eve disobeyed God's law. (Genesis 3:1-6) In doing so, they became
sinners, for "sin is lawlessness." (1 John 3:4) As a result, Adam and
Eve no longer had the prospect of eternal life. Why? Because "the wages sin
pays is death." (Romans 6:23) Thus, when pronouncing sentence upon Adam and
Eve, God said: "Dust you are and to dust you will return." Our first
parents were then expelled from their Paradise home. On the day that they
sinned, Adam and Eve began the slow but steady process of dying. (Genesis 3:19,
23, 24)
When he became a sinner because of his disobedience, he became defective,
imperfect. From that time on, Adam's body became, in effect, programmed for
death...
Adam and Eve had sin deeply etched in their genes. Hence, they could not produce
perfect offspring, any more than an imperfect mold can produce a perfect object.
(Job 14:4) Indeed, every human birth confirms that our first parents lost
perfect health and eternal life for themselves and their progeny...
Jehovah God could not
simply set aside his righteous judgment. He cannot arbitrarily forget Adam's
original sin and all that mankind has added to it since then. If God were to
ignore his own just laws, this would undermine respect for his whole system of
justice and confidence in it. Imagine the outcry that would be heard if, because
of some personal whim, a human judge arbitrarily allowed a criminal to go
unpunished. However, a compassionate judge can appropriately arrange for a
statutory fine to be paid on behalf of a guilty person by some other willing
individual. This, in a way, is what God has done for
us...
Jehovah arranged for his own Son, Jesus Christ, to give his perfect human life
in place of the perfect life forfeited by Adam. Jesus willingly carried the
penalty for our sins--death. (Isaiah 53:4, 5; John 10:17, 18) The Bible says:
"The Son of man came . . . to give his soul a ransom in exchange for
many." (Matthew 20:28; 1 Timothy 2:6) No one else could do this. Jesus was
unique in that he was born without sin and remained a perfect, sinless human
right up to his death. (Hebrews 7:26; 1 Peter 2:22) His faithfulness to death
made it possible for him to pay the statutory penalty for our sins...
Quote: If he doesn't allow it, then
why are we doing it? If mankind was to be made in the face of god, then why
this?
"By no means will [Jehovah] give exemption from punishment." This is
actually another reason to laud Jehovah for his goodness. Why? Because a vital
aspect of goodness is that it does not condone badness in any way. Moreover,
"at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful
angels," vengeance will be brought "upon those who do not know God and
those who do not obey the good news." They "will undergo the judicial
punishment of everlasting destruction." (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9)
Quote: Umm... question one, did
god present himself to the Isrealites? Question two, if so then why is the
questioning of god in place. Question three, if animals were to be cared, then
probably the only ones who do care are vegans...
At Mount Sinai, what occurred when God 'came to the people in a thick cloud,' as
stated at Exodus 19:9? God was invisibly present; the people of Israel saw
visible evidence of his presence, but none of them actually saw God with their
eyes...He exists in a form that our eyes cannot see...
Jehovah has a body, but it is not like ours. "God is a Spirit," says
the Bible. (John 4:24) A spirit is a form of life that is much higher than ours.
No human has ever seen God...
____________________________________
Quote by ProgramZEROBut isn't
religion a type of philosopy? And you know, religion has caused wars to break
out also, as history would testify.
Yup, and that is FALSE religion....
Quote: Well, actually, I'm not
Christian (in case you didn't know), what I'm asking is why should the bible
hold the truth about death and not other religious
texts?
It is of vital importance for me that my beliefs be based on the Bible and not
on mere human speculations or religious creeds... I feel as did the apostle Paul
when he expressed himself under inspiration: "Let God be found true, though
every man be found a liar." (Romans 3:4
Bible holds the truth... 3 proofs that the Bible is God's Word: (1) It is
scientifically accurate, (2) it contains timeless principles that are practical
for modern living, and (3) it contains specific prophecies that have been
fulfilled, as proved by historical facts...
"All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for
reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that
the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good
work."--2 Timothy 3:16-17
Quote: Adam and Eve disobeyed
God's law. (Genesis 3:1-6) In doing so, they became sinners, for "sin is
lawlessness." (1 John 3:4) As a result, Adam and Eve no longer had the
prospect of eternal life. Why? Because "the wages sin pays is death."
(Romans 6:23) Thus, when pronouncing sentence upon Adam and Eve, God said:
"Dust you are and to dust you will return." Our first parents were
then expelled from their Paradise home. On the day that they sinned, Adam and
Eve began the slow but steady process of dying. (Genesis 3:19, 23, 24)
When he became a sinner because of his disobedience, he became defective,
imperfect. From that time on, Adam's body became, in effect, programmed for
death...
Adam and Eve had sin deeply etched in their genes. Hence, they could not produce
perfect offspring, any more than an imperfect mold can produce a perfect object.
(Job 14:4) Indeed, every human birth confirms that our first parents lost
perfect health and eternal life for themselves and their progeny...
Jehovah God could not simply set aside his righteous judgment. He cannot
arbitrarily forget Adam's original sin and all that mankind has added to it
since then. If God were to ignore his own just laws, this would undermine
respect for his whole system of justice and confidence in it. Imagine the outcry
that would be heard if, because of some personal whim, a human judge arbitrarily
allowed a criminal to go unpunished. However, a compassionate judge can
appropriately arrange for a statutory fine to be paid on behalf of a guilty
person by some other willing individual. This, in a way, is what God has done
for us...
Jehovah arranged for his own Son, Jesus Christ, to give his perfect human life
in place of the perfect life forfeited by Adam. Jesus willingly carried the
penalty for our sins--death. (Isaiah 53:4, 5; John 10:17, 18) The Bible says:
"The Son of man came . . . to give his soul a ransom in exchange for
many." (Matthew 20:28; 1 Timothy 2:6) No one else could do this. Jesus was
unique in that he was born without sin and remained a perfect, sinless human
right up to his death. (Hebrews 7:26; 1 Peter 2:22) His faithfulness to death
made it possible for him to pay the statutory penalty for our sins...
Yeah... you regurgitate stuff that I clearly destroyed... Plus you still haven't
answered my question...
Quote: At Mount Sinai, what
occurred when God 'came to the people in a thick cloud,' as stated at Exodus
19:9? God was invisibly present; the people of Israel saw visible evidence of
his presence, but none of them actually saw God with their eyes...He exists in a
form that our eyes cannot see...
Then there's no proof, if presence can not be stated obviously, then it's not
enough to prove.
Quote: Jehovah has a body, but it
is not like ours. "God is a Spirit," says the Bible. (John 4:24) A
spirit is a form of life that is much higher than ours. No human has ever seen
God...
So... that just adds on to the does god exist thing... no one has seen god, then
how do we know it is there.
Quote: Yup, and that is FALSE
religion....
There's no such thing as false religion, a religion is a belief and a belief can
not be false. Now, if it's something in the belief that's questionable, that's a
different idea...
Most Christians will agree that had Jesus not come, everyone would be destined
to go to Hell for eternity. This gives credance that those who are not saved
through Jesus are condemned. With sinfulness implied. That, and it's based on
the story of creation, from the Bible.
Quote by ProgramZEROWell, actually,
I'm not Christian (in case you didn't know), what I'm asking is why should the
bible hold the truth about death and not other religious
texts?
Bible holds the truth... 3 proofs that the Bible is
God's Word: (1) It is scientifically accurate, (2) it contains timeless
principles that are practical for modern living, and (3) it contains specific
prophecies that have been fulfilled, as proved by historical
facts...
(1) What scientific ideas has it had correct? Please list them.
(2) Alot of texts contain timeless principles for modern living. Here, let me
show you one: "Never skip a chance at serving your fellow man". This
quote could apply to anyone at any time. It doesn't mean anything.
(3) What prophecies have been fulfilled? Please list them.
ProgramZero, lemme ask you a simple question: Do you understand logic and
reason? can you reason? can you use logic? if you say yes to any of these
questions, then you must adhere to some sort of standard. Now, if are asking:
" but just because i say yes to any of these, doesnt mean i have some sorts
of standards" and there you would be wrong, because you are typing. Typing
requires that you know, in some form or another, that there is meaning behind
the words. And even if the animals can put picture to picture, they do so
because they adhere to their instincts. and Pavlovs law applies. Ring a bell,
get a price - continue to ring the bell they wait for the prize ( in short,
training) ; Put the words together, get a price.
Any event i go on a tangent. As i said before, everything applies to a standard.
By self-evident truths such as: " a thing is what it is. and a thing cannot
be what it is not " there can never be standards that are constantly
changing, because it is no longer a standard by definition. Thus: There must be
a single standard by which every thing must adhere to.
Now, for the question on how you know true religion from false ones, you dont.
You only know what adheres to what is "good" and "good" is
another standard. For example: a chart from Good ------- Evil. By another self
evident truth: " There is no middle ground" Meaning: either something
can be, or cant be. similar to what i said before.
Now, if Good is a standard, then you want to be perfect at it. Applying to the
standard of Perfection - either you are very proficient or not, scales - Now:
consider this: " if perfection is a standard by which every person wants to
attain, define perfection." And i propose these 5 catagories: Justice,
Goodness/happiness, Beauty, Truth, Unity(peace). These are all Standards,
whereby every person wants to have perfect justice, truth, beauty, unity(peace),
and goodness/happiness. So, to distinguish between a false and true religion,
understand its concepts, and see how it compares to standards.
As for prophecies and Jesus, look up " Lord Lier lunatic Myth Guru"
for an article, it should answer your questions.
Timeless principles: In every religion, there is some sort of rule that dictates
"Treat your fellow (hu)man with some sort of decent manner.
once again: Look up " Golden Rules in Religions" on Google.
anyevent, as i normally say, dont believe me, do the research yourself. Observe
for yourself. because my word might not be enough. and most likely wont be. Word
of advice: " STUDY EPISTEMOLOGY"
Quote by DarkRoseofHellYeah... you
regurgitate stuff that I clearly destroyed... Plus you still haven't answered my
question...
You can't destroyed God's word, and I've
answered all your questions, it's up to you whether you understand them or
not...I'll not repeat them...
Further, turn down foolish and ignorant questionings, knowing they produce
fights--2 Timothy 2:23
Do not give what is holy to dogs, neither throw your pearls before swine, that
they may never trample them under their feet and turn around and rip you
open.--Matthew 7:6
Quote: Then there's no proof, if
presence can not be stated obviously, then it's not enough to
prove.
Our very lives depend directly upon something we cannot see! What is that? The
air we breathe. Without it, we would die in a few minutes. We cannot see the
air, but we certainly know that it exists...
We cannot see the wind either, but we do see trees waving in the breeze, and
ocean waves tossed about by the wind's power. We believe that the wind exists
because we see its results...
Electricity is invisible. But what amazing things it can do! It lights lamps,
heats homes, drives huge machines and makes kitchen appliances work for us. No
sensible person doubts that electricity exists just because it cannot be
seen...
Radio, television and radar beams are transmitted through the air, unseen. Yet
we know that they exist because of the sound or pictures they
produce...
Can we see gravity? No, but without it, everything not firmly attached to the
earth, including people, would tend to float off into space. A similar force is
magnetism. A magnet attracts iron, yet the magnetic field is invisible to our
eyes...
The nucleus of the atom is bound together by a powerful, yet invisible, force.
But we know the force is real because fantastic amounts of energy are released
when the atom is "split" in atomic explosions...
We cannot see X rays, but they can penetrate the body and take pictures of our
bones. What would a doctor say if you told him that X rays did not exist because
you could not see them?
We do not see odors, but our nose picks them up; bloodhounds even track people
by the invisible smell. And we cannot see sound waves either, but our ears pick
them up; so we know that they are real...
Thus, we believe in many things we cannot see, because we observe the evidence,
the results they produce. In the same way, we know an unseen Creator exists
because we observe the evidence, the results of his handiwork. The Bible says:
"For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world's creation
onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power
and Godship."--Romans 1:20
When you see a house, what do you conclude? Do you conclude that the wood,
concrete and metals accidentally arranged themselves into a house, complete with
rooms, a heating system, plumbing, electrical wiring and furniture? No, you
acknowledge a maker. Even relatively simple things such as a box or a pencil do
not come into existence without a maker...
Yet, such things are insignificant compared with an atom, a tree, a human, a
planet, a sun, a galaxy, a universe. If simple things do not come into existence
without a maker, then what of these far more complex and intricate
things?
Physicist G. E. Davis says: "No material thing can create itself." In
line with this, the Bible logically declares: "Of course, every house is
constructed by someone, but he that constructed all things is God."
(Hebrews 3:4)
Then, too, if you saw a code of laws, such as those in a nation's constitution,
what would that indicate? If you saw even a simple sign at a street corner
saying, "Stop," what would it show? Laws indicate the existence of
lawmakers...
The universe has far more impressive laws. Why, the moon landings by astronauts
would have been impossible without taking into consideration, and depending
upon, the precise and reliable laws of gravity, motion, acceleration, as well as
the laws that govern the orbiting of the earth and the moon. Those superior laws
indicate the existence of a superior Lawgiver, the invisible Creator...
Hence, it is not difficult to understand why the Bible says of those who ignore
or deny the abundant evidence of a Creator: "They are inexcusable." (Romans 1:20)
But why is God invisible to human eyes? Well, would you expect to survive a
journey to the sun? No, you would burn up long before you got there. God created
the sun. Hence, he is far too powerful to be viewed by human eyes. That is why
God says in his Word: "No man may see me and yet live." (Exodus
33:20)
Quote: There's no such thing as
false religion, a religion is a belief and a belief can not be false. Now, if
it's something in the belief that's questionable, that's a different
idea...
While most religions have a body of beliefs or doctrines, these can often form a
very complicated theology, beyond the understanding of the average layperson.
Yet the principle of cause and effect applies in every case. The teachings of a
religion should influence the personality and the daily conduct of each
believer. Thus, each person's conduct will normally be a reflection, to a
greater or lesser degree, of that one's religious background. What effect does
their religion have on them? Does their religion produce a kinder person? More
generous, honest, humble, tolerant, and compassionate? These are reasonable
questions, for as one great religious teacher, Jesus Christ, stated: "Every good tree
produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree
cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every
tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really,
then, by their fruits you will recognize those men." (Matthew
7:17-20)
Certainly world history must give us pause and make us wonder what role religion
has played in the many wars that have devastated mankind and caused untold
suffering. Why have so many people killed and been killed in the name of
religion? The Crusades, the Inquisition, the conflicts in the Middle East and
Northern Ireland, the slaughter between Iraq and Iran (1980-88), the Hindu-Sikh
clashes in India--all these events certainly make thinking people raise
questions about religious beliefs and ethics...
The realm of Christendom has been noteworthy for its hypocrisy in this field. In
two world wars, Catholic has killed Catholic and Protestant has killed
Protestant at the behest of their "Christian" political leaders. Yet
the Bible clearly contrasts the works of the flesh and the fruitage of the
spirit. Regarding the works of the flesh, it states: "They are fornication,
uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife,
jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts,
revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning you, the
same way as I did forewarn you, that those who practice such things will not
inherit God's kingdom." Yet so-called Christians have practiced these
things for centuries, and their conduct has often been condoned by their clergy.
(Galatians 5:19-21)
In contrast, the positive fruitage of the spirit is described as: "love,
joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.
Against such things there is no law." All religions ought to be producing
this kind of peaceable fruitage. But do they? (Galatians 5:22, 23)
__________________________________
Quote by ProgramZEROHow do you
distinguish between "false" religion and "true"
religion?
Please look on my answer to DarkRoseofHell...
Quote: (1) What scientific ideas
has it had correct? Please list them.
That question has intrigued humans for thousands of years. The general view in
ancient times was that the earth was flat. The Babylonians, for example,
believed that the universe was a box or a chamber with the earth as its floor.
Vedic priests of India imagined that the earth was flat and that only one side
of it was inhabited. A primitive tribe in Asia pictured the earth as a huge tea
tray...
As early as the sixth century B.C.E., Greek philosopher Pythagoras theorized
that since the moon and the sun are spherical, the earth must also be a sphere.
Aristotle (fourth century B.C.E.) later agreed, explaining that the sphericity
of the earth is proved by lunar eclipses. The earth's shadow on the moon is
curved...
However, the notion of a flat earth (with only its upper side inhabited) did not
disappear completely. Some could not accept the logical implication of a round
earth--the concept of antipodes. Lactantius, Christian apologist of the fourth
century C.E., ridiculed the very idea. He reasoned: "Is there any one so
senseless as to believe that there are men whose footsteps are higher than their
heads? . . . that the crops and trees grow downwards? that the rains, and snow,
and hail fall upwards?"
The concept of antipodes posed a dilemma for a few theologians. Certain theories
held that if there were antipodeans, they could have no possible connection with
known humans either because the sea was too wide to navigate or because an
impassable torrid zone surrounded the equator. So where could any antipodeans
have come from? Perplexed, some theologians preferred to believe that there
could be no antipodeans, or even, as Lactantius argued, that the earth could not
be a sphere in the first place!
Nonetheless, the concept of a spherical earth prevailed, and eventually it was
widely accepted. Only with the dawn of the space age in the 20th century,
however, has it been possible for humans to travel far enough into space to
verify by direct observation that the earth is a globe...
And where did the Bible stand on this issue? In the eighth century B.C.E., when
the prevailing view was that the earth was flat, centuries before Greek
philosophers theorized that the earth likely was spherical, and thousands of
years before humans saw the earth as a globe from space, the Hebrew prophet
Isaiah stated with remarkable simplicity: "There is One who is dwelling
above the circle of the earth." (Isaiah 40:22) The Hebrew word chugh, here
translated "circle," may also be rendered "sphere." Other
Bible translations read, "the globe of the earth" (Douay Version) and
"the round earth."
The Bible writer Isaiah avoided the common myths about the earth. Instead, he
penned a statement that was not threatened by the advances of scientific
discovery...
In ancient times, humans were perplexed by other questions about the cosmos:
What is the earth resting on? What holds up the sun, the moon, and the stars?
They had no knowledge of the law of universal gravitation, formulated by Isaac
Newton and published in 1687. The idea that heavenly bodies are, in effect,
suspended in empty space upon nothing was unknown to them. Thus, their
explanations often suggested that tangible objects or substances held the earth
and other heavenly bodies aloft...
For example, one ancient theory, perhaps originated by people who lived on an
island, was that the earth was surrounded by water and that it floated in these
waters. The Hindus conceived that the earth had several foundations, one on top
of the other. It rested on four elephants, the elephants stood on an enormous
tortoise, the tortoise stood on an immense serpent, and the coiled serpent
floated on universal waters. Empedocles, a Greek philosopher of the fifth
century B.C.E., believed that the earth rested upon a whirlwind and that this
whirlwind was the cause of the motion of the heavenly bodies...
Among the most influential views were those of Aristotle. Although he theorized
that the earth is a sphere, he denied that it could ever hang in empty space. In
his treatise On the Heavens, when refuting the notion that the earth rests on
water, he said: "It is not the nature of water, any more than of earth, to
stay in mid-air: it must have something to rest upon." So, what does the
earth "rest upon"? Aristotle taught that the sun, the moon, and the
stars were attached to the surface of solid, transparent spheres. Sphere lay
nestled within sphere, with the earth--immobile--at the center. As the spheres
revolved within one another, the objects on them--the sun, the moon, and the
planets--moved across the sky...
Aristotle's explanation seemed logical. If the heavenly bodies were not firmly
attached to something, how else could they stay aloft? The views of the revered
Aristotle were accepted as fact for some 2,000 years. According to The New
Encyclopdia Britannica, in the 16th and 17th centuries his teachings
"ascended to the status of religious dogma" in the eyes of the
church...
With the invention of the telescope, astronomers began to question Aristotle's
theory. Still, the answer eluded them until Sir Isaac Newton explained that the
planets are suspended in empty space, held in their orbits by an invisible
force--gravity. It seemed incredible, and some of Newton's colleagues found it
hard to believe that space could be a void, largely empty of
substance...
Nearly 3,500 years ago, the Bible stated with extraordinary clarity that the
earth is hanging "upon nothing." (Job 26:7) In the original Hebrew,
the word for "nothing" (beli-mah') used here literally means
"without anything." The Contemporary English Version uses the
expression, "on empty space."
A planet hanging "on empty space" was not at all how most people in
those days pictured the earth. Yet, far ahead of his time, the Bible writer
recorded a statement that is scientifically sound...
Modern medical science has taught us much about the spread and prevention of
disease. Medical advances in the 19th century led to the introduction into
medical practice of antisepsis--cleanliness to reduce infections. The result was
dramatic. There was a significant reduction in infections and premature
deaths...
Ancient physicians, however, did not fully understand how disease spreads, nor
did they realize the importance of sanitation in preventing sickness. Little
wonder that many of their medical practices would seem barbaric by modern
standards...
One of the oldest medical texts available is the Ebers Papyrus, a compilation of
Egyptian medical knowledge, dating from about 1550 B.C.E. This scroll contains
some 700 remedies for various afflictions "ranging from crocodile bite to
toenail pain." States The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia:
"The medical knowledge of these physicians was purely empirical, largely
magical and wholly unscientific." Most of the remedies were merely
ineffective, but some of them were extremely dangerous. For the treatment of a
wound, one of the prescriptions recommended applying a mixture made of human
excrement combined with other substances...
This text of Egyptian medical remedies was written at about the same time as the
first books of the Bible, which included the Mosaic Law. Moses, who was born in
1593 B.C.E., grew up in Egypt. (Exodus 2:1-10) As a member of Pharaoh's
household, he was "instructed in all the wisdom of the Egyptians."
(Acts 7:22) He was familiar with "the physicians" of Egypt. (Genesis
50:1-3) Did their ineffective or dangerous medical practices influence his
writings?
No. On the contrary, the Mosaic Law included sanitary regulations that were far
ahead of their time. For example, a law regarding military encampments required
burying excrement away from the camp...
"And a peg should be at your service along with your implements, and it
must occur that when you squat outside, you must also dig a hole with it and
turn and cover your excrement."--Deuteronomy 23:13
This was a profoundly advanced preventive measure. It helped keep water free
from contamination and provided protection from fly-borne shigellosis and other
diarrheal illnesses that still claim millions of lives each year in lands where
sanitary conditions are deplorable...
The Mosaic Law contained other sanitary regulations that safeguarded Israel
against the spread of infectious diseases. A person who had or was suspected of
having a communicable disease was quarantined. (Leviticus 13:1-5) Garments or
vessels that came in contact with an animal that had died of itself (perhaps
from disease) were to be either washed before reuse or destroyed. (Leviticus
11:27, 28, 32, 33) Any person who touched a corpse was considered unclean and
had to undergo a cleansing procedure that included washing his garments and
bathing. During the seven-day period of uncleanness, he was to avoid physical
contact with others.--Numbers 19:1-13
This sanitary code reveals wisdom not shared by the physicians of surrounding
nations at the time. Thousands of years before medical science learned about the
ways in which disease spreads, the Bible prescribed reasonable preventive
measures as safeguards against disease. Not surprisingly, Moses could speak of
Israelites in general in his day as living to 70 or 80 years of age.
"In themselves the days of our years are seventy years;
And if because of special mightiness they are eighty years,
Yet their insistence is on trouble and hurtful things;
For it must quickly pass by, and away we fly."--Psalm 90:10
You may acknowledge that the foregoing Biblical statements are scientifically
accurate. But there are other statements in the Bible that cannot be proved
scientifically. Does that necessarily put the Bible at odds with
science?
A statement that is unprovable is not necessarily untrue. Scientific proof is
limited by man's ability to discover sufficient evidence and to interpret data
correctly. But some truths are unprovable because no evidence has been
preserved, the evidence is obscure or undiscovered, or scientific capabilities
and expertise are insufficient to arrive at an uncontested conclusion. Might
this be the case with certain Biblical statements for which independent physical
evidence is lacking?
For example, the Bible's references to an invisible realm inhabited by spirit
persons cannot be proved--or disproved--scientifically. The same can be said of
miraculous events mentioned in the Bible. Not enough clear geologic evidence for
the global Flood of Noah's day is available to satisfy some people. (Genesis,
chapter 7) Must we conclude that it did not happen? Historical events can be
obscured by time and change. So is it not possible that thousands of years of
geologic activity has effaced much of the evidence for the Flood?
Granted, the Bible contains statements that cannot be proved or disproved by
available physical evidence. But should that surprise us? The Bible is not a
science textbook. It is, however, a book of truth. We have already considered
strong evidence that its writers were men of integrity and honesty. And when
they touch on matters related to science, their words are accurate and
completely free from ancient "scientific" theories that turned out to
be mere myths. Science is thus no enemy of the Bible. There is every reason to
weigh what the Bible says with an open mind...
Quote: (2) Alot of texts contain
timeless principles for modern living. Here, let me show you one: "Never
skip a chance at serving your fellow man". This quote could apply to anyone
at any time. It doesn't mean anything.
Can you please post, what verse & sentence in the Bible?
Quote: (3) What prophecies have
been fulfilled? Please list them.
For example, God's pronouncements against the city of Babylon. We read:
"'There is a sword against the Chaldeans,' is the utterance of Jehovah,
'and against the inhabitants of Babylon and against her princes and against her
wise ones. There is a devastation upon her waters, and they must be dried up.
For it is a land of graven images, and because of their frightful visions they
keep acting crazy. Therefore the haunters of waterless regions will dwell with
the howling animals, and in her the ostriches must dwell; and she will nevermore
be dwelt in, nor will she reside for generation after generation. Just as with
God's overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah . . . no man will dwell there.'"
(Jeremiah 50:35, 38-40)
What a vivid description of abandonment and desolation! Yet this prophecy was
written when Babylon was at the height of her authority. She was the mightiest
military power in the world. But God warned that she would become like a desert.
Was the prophecy fulfilled? You can see its fulfillment for yourself. In the
country of Iraq, between the modern cities of Baghdad and Basra, there is a
large tract of uninhabited ruins. That is
all that remains of the mighty city of Babylon. God's prophecy, as recorded in
the Bible, was completely fulfilled...
Another impressive prophecy has to do with the succession of world powers after
the fall of Babylon. If you have access to a Bible, open it to the book of
Daniel and read the vision that Daniel was given in chapter 8. The angel who
explained the meaning of that vision showed that Babylon would be succeeded by
an empire ruled by the kings of Media and Persia. This kingdom in its turn would
be overthrown by a conqueror from Greece. However, this Greek empire would soon
be divided into four smaller empires. (Daniel 8:1-8, 20-22)
Was this parade of world powers fulfilled? It was indeed. Under King Cyrus the
Great, Persia overthrew the Babylonian Empire in 539 BCE. This Persian Empire
was eventually overtaken by Greek armies under the young Alexander the Great.
However, when Alexander died, his empire was weakened, and eventually four of
his generals became rulers in four divisions of it. Can you imagine a man being
able to prophesy such coming events in so great detail?
It has already been mentioned that many, many prophecies were fulfilled in Jesus
Christ, including details such as where he would be born, what tribe he would be
born into, how he would die and his betrayal by a close follower for thirty
pieces of silver. Obviously, such prophecies could only have been by divine
power. A man could not organize his own life to fulfill such details...
There are prophecies being fulfilled in our own day, too. Read these words of
the apostle Paul: "In the last days critical times hard to deal with will
be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming,
haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no
natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control,
fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride,
lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godly devotion
but proving false to its power." (2 Timothy 3:1-5)
Then, too, there are the words of Jesus himself. When asked about the
"sign" of the end of this world system, he related many things that
would happen just before the end. Are his prophecies coming true today? Read
some examples and see for yourself. Here is one: "Nation will rise against
nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there will be great earthquakes, and in
one place after another pestilences and food shortages." (Luke 21:10,
11)
You may say: 'But there have always been wars.' That is true, as Jesus himself
knew. But he was speaking of unusual wars, such as we have seen only since 1914.
Regarding the first world war, which started in that year, a military analyst
wrote: "In its scope, its violence, and above all, in its totality, it
established a precedent. World War I ushered in the century of Total War, of--in
the first full sense of the term--global war. . . . Never before 1914-1918 had a
war absorbed so much of the total resources of so many combatants and covered so
large a part of the earth. Never had so many nations been involved. Never had
the slaughter been so comprehensive and indiscriminate." (World War I, by H. W. Baldwin) Needless to
say, the carnage of the first world war was multiplied many times over in the
second...
How about the food shortages that Jesus mentioned? It is paradoxical that,
despite the fact that some countries have the highest material standard of
living in recorded history, there are more people hungry today than ever before.
The New York Times reported: "Every
8.6 seconds someone in an underdeveloped country dies as a result of illness
caused by malnutrition . . . 10,000 every day. Over 3,500,000 every year."
Does that not fulfill Jesus' prophecy about food shortages?
And has there been an unusual number of earthquakes? Well, in 1915, 29,970
people died in an earthquake in Italy. In 1920, 180,000 perished in China,
143,000 died in Japan in 1923, and in 1939, 32,300 people died in Turkey
(Erzincan). According to Scientific
American, since 1948 'one great quake is occurring each year.' We can
probably remember many gigantic earthquakes that have struck in recent years.
Many of us either have felt an earthquake or have relatives who have been
affected by one...
Finally, Jesus mentioned pestilences. It is another paradox of the modern world
that in spite of the advances of medicine, there are still scourges that take
millions of lives, especially in poorer countries. Immediately after World War
I, an international epidemic of influenza brought death to twenty-one million
victims. Today, poorer lands continue to suffer from plagues such as malaria,
cholera and typhoid. Even in wealthier lands, cancer and heart attacks cut
millions off in their prime. Venereal disease is called a
"pandemic"--more severe than an epidemic. And spreading, worldwide
pollution is threatening us with additional horrible illnesses. Regarding
pollution, ecologist Barry Commoner said: "We have come to a turning point
in the human habitation of the earth. . . . I believe that continued pollution
of the earth, if unchecked, will eventually destroy the fitness of this planet
as a place for human life."
There are many more details of Jesus' great prophecy that are clearly being
fulfilled in our days. One of the most noteworthy is with regard to a worldwide
preaching work. Jesus said: "This good news of the kingdom will be preached
in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end
will come." (Matthew 24:14) In our generation, modern communications and
travel have made fulfillment of this prophecy more practical on a global scale. Today, Jehovah's Witnesses are
preaching "this good news" in more than two hundred lands around the
earth. Yes, this prophecy, too, is being fulfilled...
Thus, Bible prophecy gives us strong reason to accept the truth that the Bible
is the Word of God. And these same prophecies show that we are living in very
unusual times, times called "the last days" by the apostle Paul...
______________________________________________
Some Bible
Prophecies and Their Fulfillment
1. Babylon, which was yet to become the capital of a glorious world empire,
would eventually become desolate, never to be reinhabited. Isaiah 13:19,
20
When Recorded :Before 732 B.C.E.
When Fulfilled: 900 years later
"Babylon lost its primacy and finally left the historical arena by the
second century A.D."--The Great Soviet
Encyclopedia, 1974 English ed., Vol. 4, p. 8.
2. A ruler named Cyrus would conquer Babylon.
Isaiah 45:1-3; 47:1-5
When Recorded: Before 732 B.C.E.
When Fulfilled: 193 years later
"The Persian king Cyrus II captured Babylon in 539 B.C."--Ibid., p. 9.
3. Babylon would be followed by the Medo-Persian Empire, pictured by a ram with
two horns, the taller of the two coming up second. Daniel 8:1-4, 20
When Recorded: About 551 B.C.E.
When Fulfilled: 12 years later, in 539 B.C.E.
The Median power came first, but the Persian power that followed surpassed it in
strength.--Encyclopaedia Britannica,
1959, Vol. 15, p. 172 and Vol. 17, p. 550.
4. The two-horned Medo-Persian Empire would be broken by a one-horned he-goat,
picturing Greece under a mighty king.
Daniel 8:5-7, 21
When Recorded: About 551 B.C.E.
When Fulfilled: 217 years later, in 334 B.C.E.
Alexander the Great inflicted a crushing defeat on the Persian Empire, thus
establishing the Grecian Empire.--The Outline
of History, by H. G. Wells, 1921, p. 321.
5. This mighty king of Greece would be broken at the zenith of his power. The
empire would not pass on to his offspring; instead it would be broken into four
parts. Daniel 11:2-4
When Recorded: 539 B.C.E.
When Fulfilled: 216 years later, 323 to 301 B.C.E.
At the age of 33 Alexander died of malarial fever; shortly afterward his only
two sons were murdered. After wars among his generals, the empire was finally
divided between Seleucus, Ptolemy, Lysimachus and Cassander.--Ibid., pp. 336, 337.
6. The wealthy port city of Tyre would be conquered by King Nebuchadrezzar. So
thorough would the destruction be that the dust of the city would be scraped
away and fishermen would dry their nets there. Ezekiel 26:4-7
When Recorded: 607 B.C.E.
When Fulfilled: 275 years later, in 332 B.C.E.
Nebuchadrezzar destroyed the mainland city. Centuries later, Alexander scraped
Tyre's ruins into the sea, forming a causeway to the island city, capturing it.
Today fishing nets are sometimes seen drying there.--Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1959, Vol. 22, p. 653.
7. The Judean kingdom would be desolated, its treasures and its subjects taken
to Babylon. (This prophecy was given in the time of the mighty Assyrian Empire,
when Babylon was merely a vassal state.) Isaiah 39:5-7
When Recorded: Before 732 B.C.E.
When Fulfilled: 125 years later, in 607 B.C.E.
"'Diaspora' denoted the existence of Jews outside Palestine, especially
after their exile by Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar II."--The Great Soviet Encyclopedia, 1975 English
ed., Vol. 8, p. 198.
8. Babylon's conqueror, Cyrus, would release the Jews. They would rebuild
Jerusalem and its temple, becoming living witnesses to the fact that Jehovah is
the God of true prophecy.
Isaiah 43:8-10, 14; 44:26-28
When Recorded: Before 732 B.C.E.
When Fulfilled: 195 years later, from 537 B.C.E.
"The Jews . . . returned . . . to Jerusalem from Babylonia in the time of
Cyrus."--The Outline of History, by
H. G. Wells, 1921, p. 230. The first-century historian Flavius Josephus recorded
the fulfillment in his Antiquities of the
Jews.
9. Israel's long-awaited Messianic King would be born in Bethlehem. Micah
5:2
When Recorded: Before 716 B.C.E.
When Fulfilled: 714 years later
Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:1-14 confirm that Jesus was born in Bethlehem in 2
B.C.E.
10. He would be born of a virgin. Eventually, as the exalted ruler of God's
choice, he would call to account all human rulers, much to their amazement, and
bring permanent peace to the earth. Isaiah 7:14; 9:6, 7; 52:13-15
When Recorded: Before 732 B.C.E.
When Fulfilled: 730 years later, in 2 B.C.E.
Matthew 1:18-23 and Luke 1:26; 2:14 record the miraculous virgin birth of Jesus.
Even the Koran of the Muslims acknowledges this in sura III, verses 40-48. Soon,
at Armageddon, he will destroy the world's entire system of political
rulership.
11. First this Messianic King would be humiliated and put to death by his own
nation, in spite of his curing them of sicknesses. His death would atone for
man's sins. Isaiah 53:3-12
When Recorded: Before 732 B.C.E.
When Fulfilled: 760 years later, from 29-33 C.E.
The four Gospel accounts testify to the miraculous cures performed by Jesus as
well as to his suffering and death at the hands of the Jews. (1 Corinthians
15:3-8) In his name salvation has been preached worldwide.
12. The inhabitants of Jerusalem who murdered him would see their own city
surrounded by encamped armies. This attack would not bring about the immediate
destruction of those in the city. It would be a sign for Jewish followers of
Jesus to flee out of the city and Judea. Luke 21:20-24
When Recorded: 33 C.E.
When Fulfilled: 33 years later, in 66 C.E.
Chronicles--News of the Past, by Dr.
Israel Eldad and Moshe Aumann, gives a historical account of the 30th of the
Jewish month Tishri, 66 C.E.: "Romans advance on Jerusalem, begin siege of
city." Later, the publication reports: "ROMAN ARMY ROUTED . . . nearly
6,000 Roman soldiers and horsemen . . . wiped out."
13. The next time these armies would prove successful. They would besiege the
city and build around it a fortification of pointed stakes. The inhabitants
would be killed and the temple would be razed. The very generation to which
Jesus preached would be called to account for shedding the blood of God's
prophets.
Luke 19:43, 44; 21:5, 6; 11:47-51
When Recorded: 32 and 33 C.E.
When Fulfilled: 37 years later, in 70 C.E.
Chronicles--News of the Past, describes
the 10th day of Ab, 70 C.E.: "JERUSALEM FALLS; TEMPLE IN FLAMES . . . Death
Toll Over Million . . . Some parts of th
Dear DarkIngram:
Yes, perhaps Adam and Eve really existed, but not as most of us believe. Their place in real History is outweigthed by their simbolic roles in Christian beliefs.
First, as I pointed out, if they really existed, they weren't the only Humans alone on Earth. The Bible admits that.
The whole point of Adam being created by God, is that the Israeli then, and now the Jews and all Humanity (well, the three monoteist religions at least) can track their ancestor to a single link (Adam) that is a CREATION OF GOD.
This was important to the Jew as they were the Chosen People. A direct link between Human and God. They inherited that oral tradition from their Caldean ancestors, and it was like a "precuel" to the pact between Abraham and God. In Christianity, that rol is overtaken by Jesus, being God and Human, at least to most Christians.
When the Bible was written, Israeli knew well enough that kings from other cultures (namely Egypt) considered themselves living gods. In the Genesis even migthy nature powers as the stars and the sea were God's creation, and leaving man at the last, is not only a simbol of "perfection" in this creature, but a lesson as well, for themselves, that none could be considered over God and the Law.
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were real. The Jews can track their ancestor until that. We can infere that Abraham existed because we at least know that he was from Ur (a real place) in Caldea. And the memory of his existence was preserved trougth oral tradition. But the figure of Adam is needed to point that especial relationship between Human and Creator.
NOW, THIS IS INTERESTING: to thier rejoice or disgust, both Creatinist and Evolution fans converge in ONE point: THE MITOCONDRIAL EVE.
Mitocondries are primitive cells within our own cells. They live in symbiosis with us since the first living beings appeared on Earth. They have their own DNA. They are only inherited trouth the mother's line, because the ovule "eats" and destroys the spermatozoids' ones.
The scientist have tracked (don't ask me how) the mitrocondial line, and have come to the conclusion that there was a SINGLE MOTHER TO US ALL. So, after all, we can at least say that there's a real Eve.
Now, racist are going to disagree. She lived in Africa (as evolution already pointed out) thousands of yeas ago. She was a Homo Sapiens already. And dark-skinned, of course. Hitler is surely spining in his grave.
Nuns don't like so much when I speak of this in my apostolate. Seminarists are more open-minded. They love to debate.
I know that in your religion Bible is taken literally. But I recommend to you to read the "Dawn of Humanity" articles of the National Geographic. They won't convince you, but at least they are damn interesting.
Bye.
HUMBLE THANKS TO JOE KAISTOE AND CYBERFROGX. See you around.
Okay, it would seem you have knowledge of a timeline in which we as humans gained the "knowledge of the angels". When did this occur in human history, when did man gain the ability to tell between "Good" and "Evil". BTW, there are other animals that are just like humans which can watch over other animals selflessly. We're not the only ones.
First, science dictates evolution, religions of the world don't (as far as I know). Second, since you have found a reason (I'm having trouble finding a reason) to re-interpret Genesis as symbolic rather than literal, surely there must be another source for man's sinfulness. Could you find a source for man's sinful nature? Perhaps it was God (assuming you believe in God) who designed us to be inclined towards evil. If it was not he who created us to be inclined towards evil, then what is the source of sin?
Again, the bible isn't necessary to answer such philosophical questions.
Alright, I want you to tell me the difference between Christian doctrine and other philosophical explanations for death.
If you ask me, I'd include Christian doctrine into the many other different religions that do not offer a satisfying answer.
The threat of nuclear war had always hung over mankind from the moment Oppenheimer witnessed his creations' destructive power to today. The UN isn't the enemy, nuclear proliferation is. In fact, the UN is our biggest hope for world peace. I don't know what you think might be our best hope for world peace.
In any case, I'm not sure what biblical verses have to do with this discussion.
Hi, ProgramZERO
Maybe I'm not so good at this "quote" thing, but I used to be, so maybe the page is failing. Or either I'm stupid. But lines that should appear as other people's ones, appear outside the box, even as I did my best. And many times. So, I started my answers with a NUMBER in order to not mix your lines and mine's. Sorry.
1. It's not something that happened at once. The "forbidden fruit" (it's symbolic: none has noticed that in Genesis it NEVER says it was an apple) was a test. The trap that the devil set lyes in here: "YOU'LL BE AS GODS". The same ambition that made Lucifer fell. Most readers oversee thise lines. That was the trick, and the origin of sin. Not a little, inocent one, as eating an apple or banana. ENVY. DESIRE OF UNLIMITED POWER. "You'll be like gods".
How many tyrants have felt like gods in human history?
How many first world countries feel they have the rigth to invade and depredate others, because their leaders fell mesianic?
How many scientis have ignored ethics, causing pain and death?
How many are small tyrants in their own homes and jobs, torturing other people?
The ability to tell betwen "good" and "evil" comes rigth with evolution and the dawn of civilization. With the gaining of concioussness. As you should know, it is both a blessing and a curse, for us humans. What we WOULD LIKE TO DO, and what we HAVE TO DO.
2. First, Evolution IS A FACT, that is STUDIED by Science. Not the other way around. Heaven forbids that we Humans dictate evolution (read again the lines above).
Second, I don't re-interpret the Bible. I'm a cathequist. I study and teach what biblical authorities have written. They're not "just" priest. They're antropoligists, psicologists, historians, intelectuals, teologists, writers, etc; most especialized in the times every book was written, the costums, the traditions, the way of thinking...
The source for human sinfulness? Dare to search, in silence, inside yourself. Beware the mosnter you could be, but of course you aren't. Look at your deeds.
Another ULTIMATE source? ALL religions, except New-Age and some modern sects, agree in the existence of the devil. Not the guy with horns and dresses in red, by the way, but a corrupter, an unfertile soul, a dark heart.
In Catholicism, God didn't made Human inclined to evil. He made Humans perfectible. Not perfect, but with the potencial of aspiring to perfection.
Of course, This belief is optional. But you have to sit and think, as those phylosophers did, to get to an own answer. And yes, I believe in God.
Again, the bible isn't necessary to answer such philosophical questions.
3. As ANY good physlosophy, as they are, any religion is a VALID THEORY. Of course, there are, as I explained before, biological and phsycological reasons. But if you want to go to the ULTIMATE REASONS (the goal of Phylosophy) of evil, you'll have to search for something BEYOND material. In the case of religion, a corrupter.
By the way, EVIL IS THE LACKNESS OF GOODNESS, as cold is lackness of heat and darkness the lack of ligth.
Alright, I want you to tell me the difference between Christian doctrine and other philosophical explanations for death.
If you ask me, I'd include Christian doctrine into the many other different religions that do not offer a satisfying answer.
4. I answered this with the "ULTIMATE CAUSE OF THINGS" that Phylosophy searchs for... if someone if not curious enough to continue asking "why?", Science is enough. You are in the other side of the same coin, of the fanatical for whom religion should be taken literally.
Science brings KNOWDLEDGE, NOT WISDOM. That's more difficult to get, and, I tell you by experience, most people never find it at all.
See ya around.
It happens to me too so don't worry about it. It's really annoying when it happens and you just... can't... fix it!
Hmm, but if both Adam and Eve were not able to tell between what was right and what was wrong, why blame them for eating the forbidden fruit? They didn't know what they were doing was wrong. Why wouldn't God punish Lucifer as opposed to the HUMAN RACE which was not responsible for the fall! It's like me punishing the son of a mass murderer.
You know, in all of history, most scientists studied and did nothing more. I'm sure you could find some irresponsible scientific minds in history but most are just making observations and writing papers. I don't think you wanna group scientists in with historically oppressive figures.
What I meant by 'dictates' was that science preaches that evolution occurred.
So you don't read the bible? You read what OTHER people write about the bible? And if you study your history, you will know that people back then were not very intelligent. You, telling me that these people who specialize in the customs, traditions, and the way of thinking of people who lived at a time when the Earth was believed to be flat would know what 'God' wanted is simply foolish.
What does this mean? Me search inside myself? I haven't done anything wrong as far as I know.
So ALL religions are paranoid? You gotta have faith in humanity, not a fictional deity.
So we have to find a "corrupter"? No, the truth is that Earth isn't a perfect place to live in. If the Earth was fine-tuned to our liking, there wouldn't as many wars as there are in human history. The needs and wants of all humans on Earth cannot be met and therefore there is conflict.
By the way, EVIL IS THE LACKNESS OF GOODNESS, as cold is lackness of heat and darkness the lack of ligth.
Wisdom comes from rationality. According to religion, the problems of the world could be blamed on a 'corrupter' which I couldn't agree with 100% of the time. Sure there are many problems in the world but they all can't be blamed on people.
Well, I've been watching too much anime lately.
Well, I don't have anything against mireya2, then again I don't know if anyone cares, anyways my main issue is Ingram.
Not explaining anything... sorry...
So, are animals just tools? I find that rather cruel... Also, does that mean god just makes stuff for his on amusement. Plus, why won't animals think about "resurrection" and how would you know if god does or doesn't care about his animals? If god was to be all caring, then why should he omit what he made?
Thanks for your patiente, programZERO, and hi again.
I say: Hmmm. Good point. How could they know? I was reading the Bible we use in cathecism "LA BIBLIA LATINOAMERICA"(well, it's in Spanish, but it's available in the U.S. too).
1. Well, God cursed the serpent (Lucifer).
2. He also cursed the Earth.
3. But HE DIDN'T CURSED HUMANITY. Because, despite anything the Enemy should do, could distort the original plan of God.
All is symbolic. Written not by scientists, but by wisemen. Science almost didn't exist, all they got was Alquemy, at best. They tried to discern an origin for everything, it DIDN'T MATTER if it came from evolution (they couln't have the sligthest idea) or creationism or hocus-pocus, what really mattered is that it CAME FROM GOD.
The Bible says that the woman looked at the fruit, and desired it, and that it wasd good to EAT. In aramean, wich had very few words, EAT AND LEARN was the same verb (I got that from the Bible, I'm not an eminence, of course).
They desired the FORBIDEN. Knowledge was surely God would have given to them, but first they had to be tested, to renounce to that knowledge so they could be worthy of getting it, first renuncing to it.
The whole point is that Adm and Eve DOUBTED the words of God. They listened to Lucifer instead. But bear in mind that they were WARNED before, as you do with a child. And if the child dissobeys, he/she gets reprimend.
Of course, it's symblolic
I know it may sound unfair, but in any country, having not knowledge of a law, it's not an excuse to break it.
I have to think about it.
You're rigth. At the time I was thinknig of an article I had read about some abuse in animal experimentation. But you're rigth.
Okey.
Nope. The Bible I read is a Catholic edition, especial for Latinamerica and for Catequist. It's especial for this, with a lot of footnotes, explanations, croos references and tablets. There's also the "Whorkshop Bible".
But people back then WERE INTELLIGENT. They didn't have meants to know what we know now. But they were wise. Iluminated. The Bible started to be written at the times of king David. Their cultura was already advanced. Not very much, of course. BUT WISENESS IS AS VALID AS SCIENCE, not in the same plane, but in everyday life.
Not yet... Bwahahaha! No, maybe you're young but you will have to choose among many paths. Haven't crossed your mind, having something fragile and preecious in your hands, as a flower, a kitten, a puppy or even a baby, to sudenly destry it? It's an example, not that you our I are going to do it. But thougts like this crosses Human's mind once in a while.
Usually, we, to silence those inner demonds, sorround ourselves with noise: parties, loud music, social activities, sports, art etc. But they are inside, lurking, waiting. They're our particular Mr. Hyde.
No paranoid, they recognize a corrupter. And in Christianity, to have faith in God, you have to get faith in Humanity first. It's not easy, it's a lot easier to lock yourself in a chapel and pray all day. But the path to God is in the OTHER PEOPLE
Because the others, your fellows, are THE REPRESENTATIVES OF GOD ON EARTH. God is NEVER FAR AWAY FROM YOU. He's next to you. In disguise. Wating for your help, your love, you consolation.
Well, I have no proof, but the originsl plan was to have A PERFECT UNIVERSE. Because God wouldn't want aniything imperfect. And, as I told you, death is not an entity, is the lackness of life. But something happened, and entrophy existed in the Universe, illness, death, virus and bactria and parasits evolved.
Wisdom doesn't come from rationality at 100%. It's has a dosis of poetry. It's a gift, given either to a child or an oldman. There's a little example... I'm sorry, it's from the Bible. It's the story of Daniel, as a child, and Susana. It's usually at the end of the book, it's a Deuterocanonich, so you won't find it in a Jewish or Witnesses' Bible.
And for blaming on the people... uhmmm. It's something to think about it, too.
But have for sure there's a corrupter.
I recomend you to read "The Silmarillion", by J.R.R. Tolkien, kind of a precuel to "The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings". He was Catholic, but combined in his fictional world both Cristhian and Celtic values and beliefs. I recomend it, because he recreates the image and thougts of the devil in a way you won't find in the Bible. But i is damn well written.
Yes, but Adam and Eve didn't know that disobeying God was wrong or listening to Lucifer. Remember, it was only after they ate the fruit that they were able to distinguish between right and wrong.
And where did these "wisemen" get their wisdom from?
No. If the thought of hurting living things crosses your mind then maybe there are some inner demons you must conquer. In the end though, it's if you act on these feelings that matters.
They're not symbolic, if you pay more attention on the context of Genesis, you'll realize that Adam & Eve were the first human pair on earth...
The Bible does not support your view... if the Bible admits that, what text? If you post only one text, I'll stop in this forum... But if I post 1 to 5 texts in the Bible that Adam & Eve were the first human pair, you'll admit in this forum that your belief is wrong & unscriptural..
All mankind descended from the first human pair, Adam and Eve. After the Flood, earth's new population, including all the races and national groups on earth today, descended from Noah through his three sons and their wives, who were survivors of that global Deluge. Thus, after listing 70 offspring of the sons of Noah, the Genesis account says: "From these the nations were spread about in the earth." (Genesis 10:32)
Youre' wrong, Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that everything in the Bible is to be taken literally. We take the balanced, commonsense view, which is indeed the Scriptural view, that, while the Bible has many direct, literal statements, such as the laws it gives to govern the Christian's life, much in that Book is symbolic or figurative...
__________________________________
Philosophies come from people who have limitations: The Bible informs us: "It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step." (Jeremiah 10:23) History testifies that trying to ignore that limitation has not produced good results. On one occasion, "Jehovah proceeded to answer Job out of the windstorm and say: 'Who is this that is obscuring counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up your loins, please, like an able-bodied man, and let me question you, and you inform me. Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you do know understanding.'" (Job 38:1-4)
Humans by nature have limitations. Additionally, their experience in life is relatively brief and is usually confined to one culture or one environment. The knowledge they possess is thus restricted, and everything is interconnected to such an extent that they constantly find aspects that they had not adequately considered. Any philosophy that they originate will reflect these limitations...
Philosophies are developed by humans who are imperfect: "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) "There exists a way that is upright before a man, but the ways of death are the end of it afterward." (Proverbs 14:12)
Because of such imperfection, human philosophies often reflect a basic selfishness that leads perhaps to momentary pleasure but also to frustration and much unhappiness...
Philosophies are influenced by demonic spirits: "The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." (1 John 5:19) "The one called Devil and Satan . . . is misleading the entire inhabited earth." (Revelation 12:9) "You at one time walked according to the system of things of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience." (Ephesians 2:2)
Philosophies that encourage people to disobey God's wholesome and upright requirements reflect such an influence. No wonder that, as history testifies, human philosophies and schemes have often brought grief to large segments of humankind...
Throughout history, man has stood perplexed and apprehensive before the dark prospect of death. What is more, fear of death has been fueled by a mix of false religious ideas, popular customs, and ingrained personal beliefs. The problem with fear of death is that it can paralyze one?s ability to enjoy life and erode one?s confidence that there is meaning to life...
Popular religion is especially reprehensible for promoting a number of popular myths regarding death. By examining a few of these under the light of Bible truth, see if your personal perceptions about death can be clarified...
Myth 1: Death is the natural end of life.
"Death . . . is an integral part of our lives," says the book Death--The Final Stage of Growth. Comments like this reflect the belief that death is normal, the natural ending of all living organisms. In turn, such a belief has fostered a nihilistic philosophy and opportunistic behavior in many...
In view of man's general reaction to death, his amazing potential for remembering and learning, and his inward longing for eternity, is it not clear that he was made to live? Indeed, God created humans, not with death as the natural outcome, but with the prospect of living on indefinitely. Note what God set before the first human pair as their future: "Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth." (Genesis 1:28)
Myth 2: God takes people in death to be with him.
A 27-year-old mother who was dying and leaving three children behind told a Catholic nun: "Don't come in and tell me this is God's will for me. . . . I hate it when somebody else tells me this." Yet, this is what many religions teach about death--that God takes people to be near him...
Is the Creator really so cruel that he would callously inflict death on us, knowing that this breaks our hearts? No, not the God of the Bible. According to 1 John 4:8, "God is love." Note that it does not say that God has love or that God is loving, but it says that God is love. So intense, so pure, so perfect is God's love, so thoroughly does it permeate his personality and actions that he may rightly be spoken of as the very personification of love. This is not a God who takes people in death to be near him...
False religion has left many confused as to the whereabouts and condition of the dead. Heaven, hell, purgatory, Limbo--these and various other destinations range from being incomprehensible to being downright terrifying. The Bible, on the other hand, tells us that the dead are unconscious; they are in a condition best compared to sleep. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; John 11:11-14) Thus, we need not worry about what happens to us after death, any more than we worry when we see someone sleeping soundly. Jesus spoke of a time when "all those in the memorial tombs" would "come out" to renewed life on a paradise earth. (John 5:28, 29; Luke 23:43)
Myth 3: God takes little children to become angels.
Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, who studied terminally ill individuals, referred to another common perception among religious people. Describing a real incident, she stated that it is "unwise to tell a little child who lost her brother that God loved little boys so much that he took little Johnny to heaven." Such a statement casts God in a bad light and does not reflect his personality and behavior. Dr. Kubler-Ross continued: "When this little girl grew up to be a woman she never solved her anger at God, which resulted in a psychotic depression when she lost her own little son three decades later."
Why would God snatch a child to get another angel--as if God needed a child more than the child?s parents did? If it were true that God takes children, would that not make him an unloving, selfish Creator? Contrary to such a perception, the Bible says: "Love is from God." (1 John 4:7) Would a God of love cause a loss that even humans with any measure of decency would not tolerate?
So why do children die? Part of the Bible's answer is recorded at Ecclesiastes 9:11: "Time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all." And Psalm 51:5 tells us that all of us are imperfect, sinful, from the time of our conception, and the eventuality for all men now is death from any number of causes. Sometimes death strikes before birth, resulting in a stillbirth. In other cases, children succumb to their dire circumstances or have accidents and die. God is not responsible for such eventualities...
Myth 4: Some people are tormented after death.
Many religions teach that the wicked will go to a fiery hell and be tormented forever. Is this teaching logical and Scriptural? The human life span is limited to 70 or 80 years. Even if someone was guilty of extreme wickedness all his life, would everlasting torment be a just punishment? No. It would be grossly unjust to torment a man forever for the sins that he committed in a short lifetime...
Only God can reveal what happens after people die, and he has done so in his written Word, the Bible. This is what the Bible says: "As the [beast] dies, so the [man] dies; and they all have but one spirit . . . All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust." (Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20) There is no mention here of a fiery hell. Humans return to dust--to nonexistence--when they die...
In order to be tormented, a person has to be conscious. Are the dead conscious? Once again, the Bible gives the answer: "The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten." (Ecclesiastes 9:5) It is impossible for the dead, who are "conscious of nothing at all," to experience agony anywhere...
Myth 5: Death means the permanent end of our existence.
We cease to exist when we die, but this does not mean that everything is necessarily finished. The faithful man Job knew that he would go to the grave, Sheol, when he died. But listen to his prayer to God: "O that in Sheol you would conceal me, that you would keep me secret until your anger turns back, that you would set a time limit for me and remember me! If an able-bodied man dies can he live again? . . . You will call, and I myself shall answer you." (Job 14:13-15)
Job believed that if he was faithful until death, he would be remembered by God and in time be resurrected. This was the belief of all of God's servants in ancient times. Jesus himself confirmed this hope and showed that God would use him to raise the dead. Christ's own words give us this assurance: "The hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear [Jesus'] voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment." (John 5:28, 29)
Very shortly God will remove all wickedness and establish a new world under heavenly rulership. (Psalm 37:10, 11; Daniel 2:44; Revelation 16:14, 16) The result will be a paradise over the whole earth, inhabited by people who serve God. In the Bible we read: "I heard a loud voice from the throne say: 'Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.'" (Revelation 21:3, 4)
The United Nations does not have the ability to bring world peace. Its members and supporters are all imperfect humans, notwithstanding their lofty goals. The Bible says that "to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step." (Jeremiah 10:23) Furthermore, God warns: "Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs." (Psalm 146:3)
The Bible foretells what Jehovah will accomplish through his Son, the "Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6, 7 states: "There has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end."
The nations of the world have been wearied by years of frustrated efforts. Very soon they will destroy harlotlike religious organizations. Then Jesus Christ, the "King of kings and Lord of lords," and his army of heavenly warriors will dissolve all human governments and put to death all who reject God's sovereignty. (Revelation 19:11-21; Daniel 2:44) By this means Jehovah God will bring about a world without war...
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DarkRoseofHell this text is for you:
"For the thoughts of you people are not my thoughts, nor are my ways your ways," is the utterance of Jehovah. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)
God allows us to benefit from the animals. Bible principles allow us to kill animals to provide food and clothing or to protect ourselves from harm. (Genesis 3:21; 9:3; Exodus 21:28) However, life is sacred to God. Our dominion over the animals must be exercised in a balanced way that shows respect for life. The Bible speaks negatively of a man named Nimrod, who apparently killed animals and perhaps humans for the sheer thrill of it. (Genesis 10:9)
Jesus spoke of God's concern for animals in these words: "Five sparrows sell for two coins of small value, do they not? Yet not one of them goes forgotten before God." (Luke 12:6) Also, when changing his mind about destroying a city full of practicers of wickedness who had repented, God himself said: "Ought I not to feel sorry for Nineveh the great city, in which there exist more than one hundred and twenty thousand men . . . , besides many domestic animals?" (Jonah 4:11) Obviously, he does not regard animals as just disposable items, to be thrown away at will...
When giving the Israelites laws, God taught them proper care of animals. He required them to return a stray animal to its owner and to help animals in distress. (Exodus 23:4, 5) Animals were to benefit from a Sabbath rest, just like humans. (Exodus 23:12) There were laws governing the proper treatment of farm animals. (Deuteronomy 22:10; 25:4) Obviously, animals were to be cared for and guarded, not exploited...
Proverbs 12:10 explicitly states God's viewpoint: "The righteous one is caring for the soul of his domestic animal, but the mercies of the wicked ones are cruel." A Bible commentary renders this verse as follows: "A righteous man's kindness extends even to dumb animals, but a wicked man is cruel, even when he thinks he is being most gentle."--Believer's Bible Commentary, by William MacDonald.
The righteous man treats animals with kindness and seeks to know their needs. A wicked person may vocally express love for animals, but his "mercies," at best, are actually cruel. His actions betray the selfish motive he has in mind. How true this is of those who pit one animal against another in hopes of winning money!
True, God's original purpose was that man have "in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth." (Genesis 1:28) Cruelty to animals has no place in that purpose. The inhuman treatment of animals will not go on forever. We have reason to believe that God will stop all unnecessary suffering...
He promises to do away with wicked and cruel people. (Proverbs 2:22) Regarding the animals, Hosea 2:18 says: "I shall certainly conclude a covenant in that day in connection with the wild beast of the field and with the flying creature of the heavens and the creeping thing of the ground." How wonderful it will be to live during that time, when peaceful conditions will benefit not only upright humans but also the animals!
I don't see how we're sharing anything to the animals. If we are, then why are there extinct animals that we cause? Also, if life is sacred to god, then why shall we die?
If he doesn't allow it, then why are we doing it? If mankind was to be made in the face of god, then why this?
Umm... question one, did god present himself to the Isrealites? Question two, if so then why is the questioning of god in place. Question three, if animals were to be cared, then probably the only ones who do care are vegans...
i have an easier answer (maybe) for some of your questions, DarkRoseofHell
Extinctions are caused by our carelessness, and we DO take things for granted, you see, usually until it's too late.. we die because we sin.
Q1 : yes. God did presented himself, but showing only his back
Q2 : since he presented himself, there is God
Q3 : vegans do not necessarily care for animals. we care animals mostly because of their service to us, (mostly as food tho). you see, try making the government mass kill chickens without any aparent reason, and especially not for food. then people probably will go demonstration
But isn't religion a type of philosopy? And you know, religion has caused wars to break out also, as history would testify.
Well, actually, I'm not Christian (in case you didn't know), what I'm asking is why should the bible hold the truth about death and not other religious texts?
No, the UN isn't perfect but for you to say that the UN doesn't have the ability to prevent war is ludicrous. All throughout the Cold War, we have avoided war with the Soviet Union due to the fact that we were able to talk things out. The UN does the same thing today. It helps sort things out between countries.
Well, again, I'm not Christian so I don't pay attention to what the bible says, no offense, that's just me.
Umm... you know that most vegetarians ( or vegan ) don't eat meat because they don't want to harm an animal...
If he presented himself, where's the proof, also if his back is showing, how do we know if it even is god...
If we don't sin then we still die you know...
you mean the Buddhist mostly? actually, most people now did that for the sake of religion instead of those... this case is somewhat like christmas, which already lost its meaning to many people.
the bible says so.... ill go n quote if u really wan me to
Adam and Eve disobeyed God's law. (Genesis 3:1-6) In doing so, they became sinners, for "sin is lawlessness." (1 John 3:4) As a result, Adam and Eve no longer had the prospect of eternal life. Why? Because "the wages sin pays is death." (Romans 6:23) Thus, when pronouncing sentence upon Adam and Eve, God said: "Dust you are and to dust you will return." Our first parents were then expelled from their Paradise home. On the day that they sinned, Adam and Eve began the slow but steady process of dying. (Genesis 3:19, 23, 24)
When he became a sinner because of his disobedience, he became defective, imperfect. From that time on, Adam's body became, in effect, programmed for death...
Adam and Eve had sin deeply etched in their genes. Hence, they could not produce perfect offspring, any more than an imperfect mold can produce a perfect object. (Job 14:4) Indeed, every human birth confirms that our first parents lost perfect health and eternal life for themselves and their progeny...
Jehovah God could not simply set aside his righteous judgment. He cannot arbitrarily forget Adam's original sin and all that mankind has added to it since then. If God were to ignore his own just laws, this would undermine respect for his whole system of justice and confidence in it. Imagine the outcry that would be heard if, because of some personal whim, a human judge arbitrarily allowed a criminal to go unpunished. However, a compassionate judge can appropriately arrange for a statutory fine to be paid on behalf of a guilty person by some other willing individual. This, in a way, is what God has done for us...
Jehovah arranged for his own Son, Jesus Christ, to give his perfect human life in place of the perfect life forfeited by Adam. Jesus willingly carried the penalty for our sins--death. (Isaiah 53:4, 5; John 10:17, 18) The Bible says: "The Son of man came . . . to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many." (Matthew 20:28; 1 Timothy 2:6) No one else could do this. Jesus was unique in that he was born without sin and remained a perfect, sinless human right up to his death. (Hebrews 7:26; 1 Peter 2:22) His faithfulness to death made it possible for him to pay the statutory penalty for our sins...
"By no means will [Jehovah] give exemption from punishment." This is actually another reason to laud Jehovah for his goodness. Why? Because a vital aspect of goodness is that it does not condone badness in any way. Moreover, "at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels," vengeance will be brought "upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news." They "will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction." (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9)
At Mount Sinai, what occurred when God 'came to the people in a thick cloud,' as stated at Exodus 19:9? God was invisibly present; the people of Israel saw visible evidence of his presence, but none of them actually saw God with their eyes...He exists in a form that our eyes cannot see...
Jehovah has a body, but it is not like ours. "God is a Spirit," says the Bible. (John 4:24) A spirit is a form of life that is much higher than ours. No human has ever seen God...
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Yup, and that is FALSE religion....
It is of vital importance for me that my beliefs be based on the Bible and not on mere human speculations or religious creeds... I feel as did the apostle Paul when he expressed himself under inspiration: "Let God be found true, though every man be found a liar." (Romans 3:4
Bible holds the truth... 3 proofs that the Bible is God's Word: (1) It is scientifically accurate, (2) it contains timeless principles that are practical for modern living, and (3) it contains specific prophecies that have been fulfilled, as proved by historical facts...
"All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."--2 Timothy 3:16-17
Yeah... you regurgitate stuff that I clearly destroyed... Plus you still haven't answered my question...
Then there's no proof, if presence can not be stated obviously, then it's not enough to prove.
So... that just adds on to the does god exist thing... no one has seen god, then how do we know it is there.
There's no such thing as false religion, a religion is a belief and a belief can not be false. Now, if it's something in the belief that's questionable, that's a different idea...
Most Christians will agree that had Jesus not come, everyone would be destined to go to Hell for eternity. This gives credance that those who are not saved through Jesus are condemned. With sinfulness implied. That, and it's based on the story of creation, from the Bible.
How do you distinguish between "false" religion and "true" religion?
(1) What scientific ideas has it had correct? Please list them.
(2) Alot of texts contain timeless principles for modern living. Here, let me show you one: "Never skip a chance at serving your fellow man". This quote could apply to anyone at any time. It doesn't mean anything.
(3) What prophecies have been fulfilled? Please list them.
ProgramZero, lemme ask you a simple question: Do you understand logic and reason? can you reason? can you use logic? if you say yes to any of these questions, then you must adhere to some sort of standard. Now, if are asking: " but just because i say yes to any of these, doesnt mean i have some sorts of standards" and there you would be wrong, because you are typing. Typing requires that you know, in some form or another, that there is meaning behind the words. And even if the animals can put picture to picture, they do so because they adhere to their instincts. and Pavlovs law applies. Ring a bell, get a price - continue to ring the bell they wait for the prize ( in short, training) ; Put the words together, get a price.
Any event i go on a tangent. As i said before, everything applies to a standard. By self-evident truths such as: " a thing is what it is. and a thing cannot be what it is not " there can never be standards that are constantly changing, because it is no longer a standard by definition. Thus: There must be a single standard by which every thing must adhere to.
Now, for the question on how you know true religion from false ones, you dont. You only know what adheres to what is "good" and "good" is another standard. For example: a chart from Good ------- Evil. By another self evident truth: " There is no middle ground" Meaning: either something can be, or cant be. similar to what i said before.
Now, if Good is a standard, then you want to be perfect at it. Applying to the standard of Perfection - either you are very proficient or not, scales - Now: consider this: " if perfection is a standard by which every person wants to attain, define perfection." And i propose these 5 catagories: Justice, Goodness/happiness, Beauty, Truth, Unity(peace). These are all Standards, whereby every person wants to have perfect justice, truth, beauty, unity(peace), and goodness/happiness. So, to distinguish between a false and true religion, understand its concepts, and see how it compares to standards.
As for prophecies and Jesus, look up " Lord Lier lunatic Myth Guru" for an article, it should answer your questions.
Timeless principles: In every religion, there is some sort of rule that dictates "Treat your fellow (hu)man with some sort of decent manner.
once again: Look up " Golden Rules in Religions" on Google.
anyevent, as i normally say, dont believe me, do the research yourself. Observe for yourself. because my word might not be enough. and most likely wont be. Word of advice: " STUDY EPISTEMOLOGY"
You can't destroyed God's word, and I've answered all your questions, it's up to you whether you understand them or not...I'll not repeat them...
Further, turn down foolish and ignorant questionings, knowing they produce fights--2 Timothy 2:23
Do not give what is holy to dogs, neither throw your pearls before swine, that they may never trample them under their feet and turn around and rip you open.--Matthew 7:6
Our very lives depend directly upon something we cannot see! What is that? The air we breathe. Without it, we would die in a few minutes. We cannot see the air, but we certainly know that it exists...
We cannot see the wind either, but we do see trees waving in the breeze, and ocean waves tossed about by the wind's power. We believe that the wind exists because we see its results...
Electricity is invisible. But what amazing things it can do! It lights lamps, heats homes, drives huge machines and makes kitchen appliances work for us. No sensible person doubts that electricity exists just because it cannot be seen...
Radio, television and radar beams are transmitted through the air, unseen. Yet we know that they exist because of the sound or pictures they produce...
Can we see gravity? No, but without it, everything not firmly attached to the earth, including people, would tend to float off into space. A similar force is magnetism. A magnet attracts iron, yet the magnetic field is invisible to our eyes...
The nucleus of the atom is bound together by a powerful, yet invisible, force. But we know the force is real because fantastic amounts of energy are released when the atom is "split" in atomic explosions...
We cannot see X rays, but they can penetrate the body and take pictures of our bones. What would a doctor say if you told him that X rays did not exist because you could not see them?
We do not see odors, but our nose picks them up; bloodhounds even track people by the invisible smell. And we cannot see sound waves either, but our ears pick them up; so we know that they are real...
Thus, we believe in many things we cannot see, because we observe the evidence, the results they produce. In the same way, we know an unseen Creator exists because we observe the evidence, the results of his handiwork. The Bible says: "For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world's creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship."--Romans 1:20
When you see a house, what do you conclude? Do you conclude that the wood, concrete and metals accidentally arranged themselves into a house, complete with rooms, a heating system, plumbing, electrical wiring and furniture? No, you acknowledge a maker. Even relatively simple things such as a box or a pencil do not come into existence without a maker...
Yet, such things are insignificant compared with an atom, a tree, a human, a planet, a sun, a galaxy, a universe. If simple things do not come into existence without a maker, then what of these far more complex and intricate things?
Physicist G. E. Davis says: "No material thing can create itself." In line with this, the Bible logically declares: "Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but he that constructed all things is God." (Hebrews 3:4)
Then, too, if you saw a code of laws, such as those in a nation's constitution, what would that indicate? If you saw even a simple sign at a street corner saying, "Stop," what would it show? Laws indicate the existence of lawmakers...
The universe has far more impressive laws. Why, the moon landings by astronauts would have been impossible without taking into consideration, and depending upon, the precise and reliable laws of gravity, motion, acceleration, as well as the laws that govern the orbiting of the earth and the moon. Those superior laws indicate the existence of a superior Lawgiver, the invisible Creator...
Hence, it is not difficult to understand why the Bible says of those who ignore or deny the abundant evidence of a Creator: "They are inexcusable." (Romans 1:20)
But why is God invisible to human eyes? Well, would you expect to survive a journey to the sun? No, you would burn up long before you got there. God created the sun. Hence, he is far too powerful to be viewed by human eyes. That is why God says in his Word: "No man may see me and yet live." (Exodus 33:20)
While most religions have a body of beliefs or doctrines, these can often form a very complicated theology, beyond the understanding of the average layperson. Yet the principle of cause and effect applies in every case. The teachings of a religion should influence the personality and the daily conduct of each believer. Thus, each person's conduct will normally be a reflection, to a greater or lesser degree, of that one's religious background. What effect does their religion have on them? Does their religion produce a kinder person? More generous, honest, humble, tolerant, and compassionate? These are reasonable questions, for as one great religious teacher, Jesus Christ, stated: "Every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men." (Matthew 7:17-20)
Certainly world history must give us pause and make us wonder what role religion has played in the many wars that have devastated mankind and caused untold suffering. Why have so many people killed and been killed in the name of religion? The Crusades, the Inquisition, the conflicts in the Middle East and Northern Ireland, the slaughter between Iraq and Iran (1980-88), the Hindu-Sikh clashes in India--all these events certainly make thinking people raise questions about religious beliefs and ethics...
The realm of Christendom has been noteworthy for its hypocrisy in this field. In two world wars, Catholic has killed Catholic and Protestant has killed Protestant at the behest of their "Christian" political leaders. Yet the Bible clearly contrasts the works of the flesh and the fruitage of the spirit. Regarding the works of the flesh, it states: "They are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning you, the same way as I did forewarn you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God's kingdom." Yet so-called Christians have practiced these things for centuries, and their conduct has often been condoned by their clergy. (Galatians 5:19-21)
In contrast, the positive fruitage of the spirit is described as: "love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law." All religions ought to be producing this kind of peaceable fruitage. But do they? (Galatians 5:22, 23)
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Please look on my answer to DarkRoseofHell...
That question has intrigued humans for thousands of years. The general view in ancient times was that the earth was flat. The Babylonians, for example, believed that the universe was a box or a chamber with the earth as its floor. Vedic priests of India imagined that the earth was flat and that only one side of it was inhabited. A primitive tribe in Asia pictured the earth as a huge tea tray...
As early as the sixth century B.C.E., Greek philosopher Pythagoras theorized that since the moon and the sun are spherical, the earth must also be a sphere. Aristotle (fourth century B.C.E.) later agreed, explaining that the sphericity of the earth is proved by lunar eclipses. The earth's shadow on the moon is curved...
However, the notion of a flat earth (with only its upper side inhabited) did not disappear completely. Some could not accept the logical implication of a round earth--the concept of antipodes. Lactantius, Christian apologist of the fourth century C.E., ridiculed the very idea. He reasoned: "Is there any one so senseless as to believe that there are men whose footsteps are higher than their heads? . . . that the crops and trees grow downwards? that the rains, and snow, and hail fall upwards?"
The concept of antipodes posed a dilemma for a few theologians. Certain theories held that if there were antipodeans, they could have no possible connection with known humans either because the sea was too wide to navigate or because an impassable torrid zone surrounded the equator. So where could any antipodeans have come from? Perplexed, some theologians preferred to believe that there could be no antipodeans, or even, as Lactantius argued, that the earth could not be a sphere in the first place!
Nonetheless, the concept of a spherical earth prevailed, and eventually it was widely accepted. Only with the dawn of the space age in the 20th century, however, has it been possible for humans to travel far enough into space to verify by direct observation that the earth is a globe...
And where did the Bible stand on this issue? In the eighth century B.C.E., when the prevailing view was that the earth was flat, centuries before Greek philosophers theorized that the earth likely was spherical, and thousands of years before humans saw the earth as a globe from space, the Hebrew prophet Isaiah stated with remarkable simplicity: "There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth." (Isaiah 40:22) The Hebrew word chugh, here translated "circle," may also be rendered "sphere." Other Bible translations read, "the globe of the earth" (Douay Version) and "the round earth."
The Bible writer Isaiah avoided the common myths about the earth. Instead, he penned a statement that was not threatened by the advances of scientific discovery...
In ancient times, humans were perplexed by other questions about the cosmos: What is the earth resting on? What holds up the sun, the moon, and the stars? They had no knowledge of the law of universal gravitation, formulated by Isaac Newton and published in 1687. The idea that heavenly bodies are, in effect, suspended in empty space upon nothing was unknown to them. Thus, their explanations often suggested that tangible objects or substances held the earth and other heavenly bodies aloft...
For example, one ancient theory, perhaps originated by people who lived on an island, was that the earth was surrounded by water and that it floated in these waters. The Hindus conceived that the earth had several foundations, one on top of the other. It rested on four elephants, the elephants stood on an enormous tortoise, the tortoise stood on an immense serpent, and the coiled serpent floated on universal waters. Empedocles, a Greek philosopher of the fifth century B.C.E., believed that the earth rested upon a whirlwind and that this whirlwind was the cause of the motion of the heavenly bodies...
Among the most influential views were those of Aristotle. Although he theorized that the earth is a sphere, he denied that it could ever hang in empty space. In his treatise On the Heavens, when refuting the notion that the earth rests on water, he said: "It is not the nature of water, any more than of earth, to stay in mid-air: it must have something to rest upon." So, what does the earth "rest upon"? Aristotle taught that the sun, the moon, and the stars were attached to the surface of solid, transparent spheres. Sphere lay nestled within sphere, with the earth--immobile--at the center. As the spheres revolved within one another, the objects on them--the sun, the moon, and the planets--moved across the sky...
Aristotle's explanation seemed logical. If the heavenly bodies were not firmly attached to something, how else could they stay aloft? The views of the revered Aristotle were accepted as fact for some 2,000 years. According to The New Encyclopdia Britannica, in the 16th and 17th centuries his teachings "ascended to the status of religious dogma" in the eyes of the church...
With the invention of the telescope, astronomers began to question Aristotle's theory. Still, the answer eluded them until Sir Isaac Newton explained that the planets are suspended in empty space, held in their orbits by an invisible force--gravity. It seemed incredible, and some of Newton's colleagues found it hard to believe that space could be a void, largely empty of substance...
Nearly 3,500 years ago, the Bible stated with extraordinary clarity that the earth is hanging "upon nothing." (Job 26:7) In the original Hebrew, the word for "nothing" (beli-mah') used here literally means "without anything." The Contemporary English Version uses the expression, "on empty space."
A planet hanging "on empty space" was not at all how most people in those days pictured the earth. Yet, far ahead of his time, the Bible writer recorded a statement that is scientifically sound...
Modern medical science has taught us much about the spread and prevention of disease. Medical advances in the 19th century led to the introduction into medical practice of antisepsis--cleanliness to reduce infections. The result was dramatic. There was a significant reduction in infections and premature deaths...
Ancient physicians, however, did not fully understand how disease spreads, nor did they realize the importance of sanitation in preventing sickness. Little wonder that many of their medical practices would seem barbaric by modern standards...
One of the oldest medical texts available is the Ebers Papyrus, a compilation of Egyptian medical knowledge, dating from about 1550 B.C.E. This scroll contains some 700 remedies for various afflictions "ranging from crocodile bite to toenail pain." States The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia: "The medical knowledge of these physicians was purely empirical, largely magical and wholly unscientific." Most of the remedies were merely ineffective, but some of them were extremely dangerous. For the treatment of a wound, one of the prescriptions recommended applying a mixture made of human excrement combined with other substances...
This text of Egyptian medical remedies was written at about the same time as the first books of the Bible, which included the Mosaic Law. Moses, who was born in 1593 B.C.E., grew up in Egypt. (Exodus 2:1-10) As a member of Pharaoh's household, he was "instructed in all the wisdom of the Egyptians." (Acts 7:22) He was familiar with "the physicians" of Egypt. (Genesis 50:1-3) Did their ineffective or dangerous medical practices influence his writings?
No. On the contrary, the Mosaic Law included sanitary regulations that were far ahead of their time. For example, a law regarding military encampments required burying excrement away from the camp...
"And a peg should be at your service along with your implements, and it must occur that when you squat outside, you must also dig a hole with it and turn and cover your excrement."--Deuteronomy 23:13
This was a profoundly advanced preventive measure. It helped keep water free from contamination and provided protection from fly-borne shigellosis and other diarrheal illnesses that still claim millions of lives each year in lands where sanitary conditions are deplorable...
The Mosaic Law contained other sanitary regulations that safeguarded Israel against the spread of infectious diseases. A person who had or was suspected of having a communicable disease was quarantined. (Leviticus 13:1-5) Garments or vessels that came in contact with an animal that had died of itself (perhaps from disease) were to be either washed before reuse or destroyed. (Leviticus 11:27, 28, 32, 33) Any person who touched a corpse was considered unclean and had to undergo a cleansing procedure that included washing his garments and bathing. During the seven-day period of uncleanness, he was to avoid physical contact with others.--Numbers 19:1-13
This sanitary code reveals wisdom not shared by the physicians of surrounding nations at the time. Thousands of years before medical science learned about the ways in which disease spreads, the Bible prescribed reasonable preventive measures as safeguards against disease. Not surprisingly, Moses could speak of Israelites in general in his day as living to 70 or 80 years of age.
"In themselves the days of our years are seventy years;
And if because of special mightiness they are eighty years,
Yet their insistence is on trouble and hurtful things;
For it must quickly pass by, and away we fly."--Psalm 90:10
You may acknowledge that the foregoing Biblical statements are scientifically accurate. But there are other statements in the Bible that cannot be proved scientifically. Does that necessarily put the Bible at odds with science?
A statement that is unprovable is not necessarily untrue. Scientific proof is limited by man's ability to discover sufficient evidence and to interpret data correctly. But some truths are unprovable because no evidence has been preserved, the evidence is obscure or undiscovered, or scientific capabilities and expertise are insufficient to arrive at an uncontested conclusion. Might this be the case with certain Biblical statements for which independent physical evidence is lacking?
For example, the Bible's references to an invisible realm inhabited by spirit persons cannot be proved--or disproved--scientifically. The same can be said of miraculous events mentioned in the Bible. Not enough clear geologic evidence for the global Flood of Noah's day is available to satisfy some people. (Genesis, chapter 7) Must we conclude that it did not happen? Historical events can be obscured by time and change. So is it not possible that thousands of years of geologic activity has effaced much of the evidence for the Flood?
Granted, the Bible contains statements that cannot be proved or disproved by available physical evidence. But should that surprise us? The Bible is not a science textbook. It is, however, a book of truth. We have already considered strong evidence that its writers were men of integrity and honesty. And when they touch on matters related to science, their words are accurate and completely free from ancient "scientific" theories that turned out to be mere myths. Science is thus no enemy of the Bible. There is every reason to weigh what the Bible says with an open mind...
Can you please post, what verse & sentence in the Bible?
For example, God's pronouncements against the city of Babylon. We read: "'There is a sword against the Chaldeans,' is the utterance of Jehovah, 'and against the inhabitants of Babylon and against her princes and against her wise ones. There is a devastation upon her waters, and they must be dried up. For it is a land of graven images, and because of their frightful visions they keep acting crazy. Therefore the haunters of waterless regions will dwell with the howling animals, and in her the ostriches must dwell; and she will nevermore be dwelt in, nor will she reside for generation after generation. Just as with God's overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah . . . no man will dwell there.'" (Jeremiah 50:35, 38-40)
What a vivid description of abandonment and desolation! Yet this prophecy was written when Babylon was at the height of her authority. She was the mightiest military power in the world. But God warned that she would become like a desert. Was the prophecy fulfilled? You can see its fulfillment for yourself. In the country of Iraq, between the modern cities of Baghdad and Basra, there is a large tract of uninhabited ruins. That is all that remains of the mighty city of Babylon. God's prophecy, as recorded in the Bible, was completely fulfilled...
Another impressive prophecy has to do with the succession of world powers after the fall of Babylon. If you have access to a Bible, open it to the book of Daniel and read the vision that Daniel was given in chapter 8. The angel who explained the meaning of that vision showed that Babylon would be succeeded by an empire ruled by the kings of Media and Persia. This kingdom in its turn would be overthrown by a conqueror from Greece. However, this Greek empire would soon be divided into four smaller empires. (Daniel 8:1-8, 20-22)
Was this parade of world powers fulfilled? It was indeed. Under King Cyrus the Great, Persia overthrew the Babylonian Empire in 539 BCE. This Persian Empire was eventually overtaken by Greek armies under the young Alexander the Great. However, when Alexander died, his empire was weakened, and eventually four of his generals became rulers in four divisions of it. Can you imagine a man being able to prophesy such coming events in so great detail?
It has already been mentioned that many, many prophecies were fulfilled in Jesus Christ, including details such as where he would be born, what tribe he would be born into, how he would die and his betrayal by a close follower for thirty pieces of silver. Obviously, such prophecies could only have been by divine power. A man could not organize his own life to fulfill such details...
There are prophecies being fulfilled in our own day, too. Read these words of the apostle Paul: "In the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power." (2 Timothy 3:1-5)
Then, too, there are the words of Jesus himself. When asked about the "sign" of the end of this world system, he related many things that would happen just before the end. Are his prophecies coming true today? Read some examples and see for yourself. Here is one: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another pestilences and food shortages." (Luke 21:10, 11)
You may say: 'But there have always been wars.' That is true, as Jesus himself knew. But he was speaking of unusual wars, such as we have seen only since 1914. Regarding the first world war, which started in that year, a military analyst wrote: "In its scope, its violence, and above all, in its totality, it established a precedent. World War I ushered in the century of Total War, of--in the first full sense of the term--global war. . . . Never before 1914-1918 had a war absorbed so much of the total resources of so many combatants and covered so large a part of the earth. Never had so many nations been involved. Never had the slaughter been so comprehensive and indiscriminate." (World War I, by H. W. Baldwin) Needless to say, the carnage of the first world war was multiplied many times over in the second...
How about the food shortages that Jesus mentioned? It is paradoxical that, despite the fact that some countries have the highest material standard of living in recorded history, there are more people hungry today than ever before. The New York Times reported: "Every 8.6 seconds someone in an underdeveloped country dies as a result of illness caused by malnutrition . . . 10,000 every day. Over 3,500,000 every year." Does that not fulfill Jesus' prophecy about food shortages?
And has there been an unusual number of earthquakes? Well, in 1915, 29,970 people died in an earthquake in Italy. In 1920, 180,000 perished in China, 143,000 died in Japan in 1923, and in 1939, 32,300 people died in Turkey (Erzincan). According to Scientific American, since 1948 'one great quake is occurring each year.' We can probably remember many gigantic earthquakes that have struck in recent years. Many of us either have felt an earthquake or have relatives who have been affected by one...
Finally, Jesus mentioned pestilences. It is another paradox of the modern world that in spite of the advances of medicine, there are still scourges that take millions of lives, especially in poorer countries. Immediately after World War I, an international epidemic of influenza brought death to twenty-one million victims. Today, poorer lands continue to suffer from plagues such as malaria, cholera and typhoid. Even in wealthier lands, cancer and heart attacks cut millions off in their prime. Venereal disease is called a "pandemic"--more severe than an epidemic. And spreading, worldwide pollution is threatening us with additional horrible illnesses. Regarding pollution, ecologist Barry Commoner said: "We have come to a turning point in the human habitation of the earth. . . . I believe that continued pollution of the earth, if unchecked, will eventually destroy the fitness of this planet as a place for human life."
There are many more details of Jesus' great prophecy that are clearly being fulfilled in our days. One of the most noteworthy is with regard to a worldwide preaching work. Jesus said: "This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come." (Matthew 24:14) In our generation, modern communications and travel have made fulfillment of this prophecy more practical on a global scale. Today, Jehovah's Witnesses are preaching "this good news" in more than two hundred lands around the earth. Yes, this prophecy, too, is being fulfilled...
Thus, Bible prophecy gives us strong reason to accept the truth that the Bible is the Word of God. And these same prophecies show that we are living in very unusual times, times called "the last days" by the apostle Paul...
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Some Bible Prophecies and Their Fulfillment
1. Babylon, which was yet to become the capital of a glorious world empire, would eventually become desolate, never to be reinhabited. Isaiah 13:19, 20
When Recorded :Before 732 B.C.E.
When Fulfilled: 900 years later
"Babylon lost its primacy and finally left the historical arena by the second century A.D."--The Great Soviet Encyclopedia, 1974 English ed., Vol. 4, p. 8.
2. A ruler named Cyrus would conquer Babylon.
Isaiah 45:1-3; 47:1-5
When Recorded: Before 732 B.C.E.
When Fulfilled: 193 years later
"The Persian king Cyrus II captured Babylon in 539 B.C."--Ibid., p. 9.
3. Babylon would be followed by the Medo-Persian Empire, pictured by a ram with two horns, the taller of the two coming up second. Daniel 8:1-4, 20
When Recorded: About 551 B.C.E.
When Fulfilled: 12 years later, in 539 B.C.E.
The Median power came first, but the Persian power that followed surpassed it in strength.--Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1959, Vol. 15, p. 172 and Vol. 17, p. 550.
4. The two-horned Medo-Persian Empire would be broken by a one-horned he-goat, picturing Greece under a mighty king.
Daniel 8:5-7, 21
When Recorded: About 551 B.C.E.
When Fulfilled: 217 years later, in 334 B.C.E.
Alexander the Great inflicted a crushing defeat on the Persian Empire, thus establishing the Grecian Empire.--The Outline of History, by H. G. Wells, 1921, p. 321.
5. This mighty king of Greece would be broken at the zenith of his power. The empire would not pass on to his offspring; instead it would be broken into four parts. Daniel 11:2-4
When Recorded: 539 B.C.E.
When Fulfilled: 216 years later, 323 to 301 B.C.E.
At the age of 33 Alexander died of malarial fever; shortly afterward his only two sons were murdered. After wars among his generals, the empire was finally divided between Seleucus, Ptolemy, Lysimachus and Cassander.--Ibid., pp. 336, 337.
6. The wealthy port city of Tyre would be conquered by King Nebuchadrezzar. So thorough would the destruction be that the dust of the city would be scraped away and fishermen would dry their nets there. Ezekiel 26:4-7
When Recorded: 607 B.C.E.
When Fulfilled: 275 years later, in 332 B.C.E.
Nebuchadrezzar destroyed the mainland city. Centuries later, Alexander scraped Tyre's ruins into the sea, forming a causeway to the island city, capturing it. Today fishing nets are sometimes seen drying there.--Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1959, Vol. 22, p. 653.
7. The Judean kingdom would be desolated, its treasures and its subjects taken to Babylon. (This prophecy was given in the time of the mighty Assyrian Empire, when Babylon was merely a vassal state.) Isaiah 39:5-7
When Recorded: Before 732 B.C.E.
When Fulfilled: 125 years later, in 607 B.C.E.
"'Diaspora' denoted the existence of Jews outside Palestine, especially after their exile by Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar II."--The Great Soviet Encyclopedia, 1975 English ed., Vol. 8, p. 198.
8. Babylon's conqueror, Cyrus, would release the Jews. They would rebuild Jerusalem and its temple, becoming living witnesses to the fact that Jehovah is the God of true prophecy.
Isaiah 43:8-10, 14; 44:26-28
When Recorded: Before 732 B.C.E.
When Fulfilled: 195 years later, from 537 B.C.E.
"The Jews . . . returned . . . to Jerusalem from Babylonia in the time of Cyrus."--The Outline of History, by H. G. Wells, 1921, p. 230. The first-century historian Flavius Josephus recorded the fulfillment in his Antiquities of the Jews.
9. Israel's long-awaited Messianic King would be born in Bethlehem. Micah 5:2
When Recorded: Before 716 B.C.E.
When Fulfilled: 714 years later
Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:1-14 confirm that Jesus was born in Bethlehem in 2 B.C.E.
10. He would be born of a virgin. Eventually, as the exalted ruler of God's choice, he would call to account all human rulers, much to their amazement, and bring permanent peace to the earth. Isaiah 7:14; 9:6, 7; 52:13-15
When Recorded: Before 732 B.C.E.
When Fulfilled: 730 years later, in 2 B.C.E.
Matthew 1:18-23 and Luke 1:26; 2:14 record the miraculous virgin birth of Jesus. Even the Koran of the Muslims acknowledges this in sura III, verses 40-48. Soon, at Armageddon, he will destroy the world's entire system of political rulership.
11. First this Messianic King would be humiliated and put to death by his own nation, in spite of his curing them of sicknesses. His death would atone for man's sins. Isaiah 53:3-12
When Recorded: Before 732 B.C.E.
When Fulfilled: 760 years later, from 29-33 C.E.
The four Gospel accounts testify to the miraculous cures performed by Jesus as well as to his suffering and death at the hands of the Jews. (1 Corinthians 15:3-8) In his name salvation has been preached worldwide.
12. The inhabitants of Jerusalem who murdered him would see their own city surrounded by encamped armies. This attack would not bring about the immediate destruction of those in the city. It would be a sign for Jewish followers of Jesus to flee out of the city and Judea. Luke 21:20-24
When Recorded: 33 C.E.
When Fulfilled: 33 years later, in 66 C.E.
Chronicles--News of the Past, by Dr. Israel Eldad and Moshe Aumann, gives a historical account of the 30th of the Jewish month Tishri, 66 C.E.: "Romans advance on Jerusalem, begin siege of city." Later, the publication reports: "ROMAN ARMY ROUTED . . . nearly 6,000 Roman soldiers and horsemen . . . wiped out."
13. The next time these armies would prove successful. They would besiege the city and build around it a fortification of pointed stakes. The inhabitants would be killed and the temple would be razed. The very generation to which Jesus preached would be called to account for shedding the blood of God's prophets.
Luke 19:43, 44; 21:5, 6; 11:47-51
When Recorded: 32 and 33 C.E.
When Fulfilled: 37 years later, in 70 C.E.
Chronicles--News of the Past, describes the 10th day of Ab, 70 C.E.: "JERUSALEM FALLS; TEMPLE IN FLAMES . . . Death Toll Over Million . . . Some parts of th