Christianity Talks:Miscellaneous Contradictions
Religion & Science
What religion are you?
Christianity Talks:Miscellaneous Contradictions
What religion are you?
- Christian
- 14 votes
- Buddhist
- 3 votes
- Atheist
- 8 votes
- Shinto
- 0 votes
- Agnostic
- 0 votes
- Jewish
- 0 votes
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This thread is just a place to talk about Christianity and for Christians to defend the Word of God.....I welcome atheists,agnostics,and skeptics to explain their opinions and ask questions that will be answered by yours truly.This might be hard so let me start this conversation with something to think about.....
Origin:Where do we come from?
Identity:Who are we?
Meaning:Why are we here?
Morality:How should we live?
Destiny:Where are we going?
now I'm gonna start by stating the difference between Christianity and atheists.
Origin...
Atheists say evolution..............Christians say Created by God
Identity:
Atheists say a random accident from chance mutations.........Christians say purposefully created in the image of God
Meaning:
Atheists say it is self made........Christians say Serve and follow God
Morality:
atheists say whatever works for you........Christians say God's holy Law
Destiny:
atheists say the dirt/dust(being buried)............Christians say eternal life in heaven.
Now you can introduce yourself and also if you are an atheist,tell me if you agree with what this chart says...God bless you all.
Might i suggest you change "Destiny" to Afterlife? I view Destiny as more of centered around fate, that could be another debate point if you'd like to add it, do you believe in you control your own destiny or do you believe that god controls it? Actually I'm not that well informed on if most Christians believe in god controlling their fate or themselves so junk that idea. Well just some suggestions do what you like with them
Interesting concept for a thread.
Your differences list are good but they are only very basic starts (i.e. alot could be added)
Being a Christian myself I understand the wish to get others to accept God but unlike certain more extreme elements (which are found in just about every world religion) I do not blindly follow teachings set down in ancient times. My faith in God is not tempered but enhanced by my drive to discover the whats whys whens and hows (already know the originating who) of my faith.
I am a Protestant Christian which means that I am a member of a sect that broke off from the original Catholic Church (with very good reason at the time) and was subsequently subdivided due to different applications of Christian beliefs.
Also I fully understand (from my viewpoint) that the only things God has given to us is our life and his sons life (although that was Christ's choice). The Earth is basically on loan to us and we are supposed to be caring for it (doing a pretty piss poor job on that front). Everything else associated with God has been inspired by him but passed through human hands and human minds. This means the era, and teh customs, and teh beliefs of those people must be put into perspective in order to understand items such as the Bible.
Given this don't be suprised if I disagree with intepretations of any holy books or beliefs.
I'd just like to add,
1. that Atheisim is not a religion.
2. Not all Atheists feel evolution is fact, and evolution is a process not the origin.
3. Not all Atheists feel" that we go to dirt".
4. Atheists may Agree with Secular Humanistic Values. "Saying anything goes" is not what some Atheists may say.
Shinsengumi89
Nor is it a single set of believes, so making a direct-comparison chart as you have done, Kingray, is more than a little misleading.
Also Buddhists are Atheists in their own sense. They do not have a god.
So maybe you should compare Secular Humanism to Christianity.
christans rule dudes! :P! ok sry ><
im personally not sure if God controls our destiny or if we do,but im pretty sure we might...
merged: 08-30-2007 ~ 02:37am
Actually,atheism is the belief of not believing a God and also even requires faith to believe that.Knowing this and the pure definition of an atheist,i can say that atheism is a faith system and should be known for having the belief of something.
Also,your saying that there are atheists that believe in an afterlife?then these people are not atheists by definition then.
merged: 08-30-2007 ~ 02:38am
look at what i said to Shinsengumi....i believe that my response has some value in it.
merged: 08-30-2007 ~ 02:39am
they are still two different religions/ideas and are separated for reasons.Im going to separate these two things.
Religion is a set of belief and atheism is just the disbelief of a deity or god of any sort. Atheism has no system within it.
The destiny, as Brin said, in what you put its more of afterlife than destiny.
You said yourself, not believing in a god, doesn't mean some don't believe in afterlife.
Just some food for thought, Buddhists believe in a afterlife, even heaven and hell but they don't believe in a god well some sects treat Buddha as a god but we'll use the ones that don't the example. You do not have to believe in a God to believe in a afterlife.
some athesist don't believe in evolution some just choose not to believe in a god. I am a chriastian and i believe that god made us in his image. Also i really would not count atheists as a religion
No it's not. Atheism covers a wide range of viewpoints. They range of absolute denial in the existence of a transcendent being to agnosticism, the "I don't know and I can't know." Both of these, and the many shades in between, are "atheists," and to categorically claim that atheism is the belief in the disbelief of God is misleading and fails to recognize the internal differences.
Besides, the point of your thread seems to be for each person to identify his or her individual faith and ask questions about Christianity to you. What point, then, is there in placing people in two vague and oversimplified categories? You bias yourself before you even begin the discussion. It would have been better to left your opening post with the questions on origin, morality, afterlife, etc, without stating what you think atheists and Christians belief on those subjects.
Though Wikipedia is not great, heres a non biased explanation of Atheisim, so that you can understand Kingray, i also posted the link on your page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheists
Next i will post the definition of religion, and the definition of belief. I will do this Using two separate dictionary sites, to prove that your statements on this subject are incorrect.
I will only do this if you still say that Atheists are members of a Religion.
I will also post the definition of a secular humanist.
but evolution is the way they would like to describe it..theyre arent going to say a God made this...
merged: 08-30-2007 ~ 08:29am
Let me explain this again....maybe i didnt get it across......Atheism is the BELIEF(belief requires faith)of there not being any Gods or deities.If anything,it takes more faith to defend atheism than to defend Christianity.....And about agnostics,there are two types,soft and hard....Soft agnostics say "i dont know if there is a God...hard say "we cant know about God" which contradicts itself if you think about it...
This thread is for miscellaneous arguments and to see if I can answer any of these questions while i have an understanding of the person saying these things.I must say,moderators are smart on this site,but they arent the top of the line...
merged: 08-30-2007 ~ 08:30am
Im not interested in a wikipedia site,and i already know the definition of an atheist so no need.I have an entire book on what an atheist is and what there beliefs are.
merged: 08-30-2007 ~ 08:31am
destiny,afterlife,is there really a difference?they both mean whats going to happen in the future.....thats my point.
Well, it'd be a lot easier to clear it up considering that afterlife and destiny are two different things, yes they refer to the future, but heck, at the least clear it up...
Well, atheism itself is not to believe in god, it doesn't require faith nor is it a type of religion. It takes absolutely no faith to defend atheism... You know how odd it is to defend atheism with faith when the attack against atheism is faith? It makes no sense...
of course it takes faith to believe in atheism.If you didnt have faith,you would give up on arguing for it and convert easily to something else.You cant just say i believe in something but i have no faith or motive behind my beliefs....
atheism isnt probably a religion but definitely requires faith in what you believe in.faith isnt just a religious term,i hope you know...
Yes I know, and faith = belief, and last I checked, disbelief in a god =/= belief...
Merriam Webster is one of the leading Dictionaries. Definition of Religion-
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=religion
Here is a comparison of how Christianity is called a Religion and how an Atheist is not called a follower of a Religion.
Definition of Atheist-
http://m-w.com/dictionary/Atheist
Definition of Christianity-
http://m-w.com/dictionary/Christianity
If needed i will keep giving more links. Something you have failed to do.
If you want to say I'm wrong, then say it. Don't hide it behind these petty sly remarks. And when you've begun to resort to that, I see no more point in even engaging in a discussion with you.
So I will leave this last comment on this topic: you believe that atheists fervently argue against God the same way religious zealots argue for God. Therein lies the heart of your misconception of many, if not most atheists. You claim that atheists can't stop arguing for atheism. MT members don't represent the world's atheist population. Most atheists in the real world, people who don't waste hours of their time arguing their guts out in a web forum, simply don't care enough to even bother joining such a debate. They don't believe in God, and they don't care if you try to convert and they don't care to argue why they don't believe in God. That utter apathy is what defines most atheists, and apathy is why atheism is not faith. Look at the demography of atheism. The majority of them never talk about religion or religiously-tied issues at all.
Think about it. When the abortion and gay marriage issues come around, who argues the point? Religious conservatives and die hard liberals. You will find no real atheist in that crowd because they don't care. THAT is much more your typical atheist.
But I will leave it at that. I'm not top of the line and therefore unworthy of your attention.
Oh, but one thing did catch my eye:
You've read one book and you think you know a subject? That's laughable. Wikipedia is worthless for academic discussions, true, but one book and you "already know?" There are volumes of academic scholarship on the issue of religiosity and atheism, and research continues to this very day. By claiming to know exactly what an atheist is and what he believes in after reading one book, two books, even ten books, you show how shallow your understanding is of the subject. You also lose your credibility.
I doooo, but I don't bother arguing in real life unless something like my english class's debate is something of related to the topic or if someone brings it up and makes it offensive to some of my views (gay rights/marriage). I'm not the typical atheist, obviously, but it's okay I guess.
Also, kingray100, when starting off this thread, you rather not slap a view comparing two types of people. You rather answer your questions in terms of your belief, don't act like you know atheists unless you are one.
Don't try to speak for Christianity as a whole, its readily apparent you havn't studied it that much.
In your origin difference, you havn't actually made any difference. Many Christians believe in evolution without a problem. Yes, ultimately all things came to be by God and are held in existance by God, but that doesn't disagree with evolution.
You're not really talking about Identity as you've stated it with what you claim atheists say. I don't know many atheists that would say we are a random accident, they would say we are Human, you're bringing in your ideas of evolution and origin, not identity. Similar on the christian side, Christians would say more likely that we ARE human beings, or that we ARE the Image of God, or that we ARE children of God, and so on, but purposefully created isn't our identity, its how we came to be, not what we came to be in ourselves.
Some christians would say what you say on meaning, others would not. Many would prefer that we are here to love God and love one another. Others would say we are here to freely choose to love God and cling to God so that we may more perfectly unite with God. Others say differently.
If an atheist says morality is whatever works for you, they don't understand the term, they'd be talking about ethics more likely, but not all follow that belief anyway. Christians may also say the Will of God or that which brings us closer to God, or that which imitates Jesus Christ.
Interestingly, many christians AlSO say dirt/dust. In fact, thats from the Bible, and part of at least a Catholic Rite "Remember that you are dust, and to dust you shall return". The soul, however, may be more to your point. Not all christians would say what you say though, you have forgotten the option of Hell.
merged: 08-30-2007 ~ 12:59pm
Also, I guess after reading more I have to throw this in: evolution is not neccessarily a belief of where we come from, at least its not a belief in where we ultimitly come from. Big Bang theory would be closer to that, but even that isn't necessarily and ultimate theory. Some atheists along these lines might more likely simply say its one of those unknowns, at least currently.
I got a question, I'm a catholic, but I got my problems with old man upstairs. Normally, christian see doubt as a great sin, but "he nothing doubts, nothing knows" or Confussio said something like that. Many friends of mine are christian, and I can't talk with them about religion cause everytime I ask a question about the bible they answer just from what the Bible says, it sound a lot like brainwashed people in George Orwell's book 1984. Why can't we doubt of him? We have never seen him and almost all things in nature can be proved by science, then why can't I give myself the right to doubt? Why can't I leave behind the teaching of the book and search for my own answers? He gave me intelligence, it would be more of an insult to him if I just used it to memorize psalms, than for doubting and then finding a better answer, don't you think? I'm afraid of going to hell, hell I am, all christians are, but I can't let those thoughts stop me from searching answers. If we just believe in him for fear of hell then doesn't religion become a hypocrecy? -I don't knok if it is well written "hypocrecy"- I don't want to fear him, I'm tird of being afraid of being sent to hell if I have sex with that or that girl, or if I drink too much for one night. The relation among man and God should not be one of fear, but respect. There is a difference. Tell the more righteous christian man God has died, and he will sin till he dies. Our religion lacks the most basic foundation, respect and trust. Not fear and a fake love. I hope I don't burn in hell for this kind of post, but if I do, I won't repent, these are my paths, and I'm well proud of them.
While I agree that it's true most atheists are pretty apathetic towards religion and don't even necessarily identify with atheism, I disagree with how you make it seem so black and white. Religious people who are not zealots may argue for God's existence and atheists who argue against arguments for God's existence don't necessarily do so fervently.
Apathy is not why atheism is not a faith nor is it why atheism is not a religion. You got it (mostly) right earlier:
Kingray100 is not claiming that "atheism is the belief in the disbelief of God." He's claiming it's the belief God does not exist, which is the exclusive definition that most atheists don't recognize and instead is mostly a view advocated by Christians in order to make atheism seem more like their belief system, which is based on faith and not known facts. Atheism is just the disbelief (i.e., non-belief) in the existence of any gods.
That's really untrue too. There are conservatives who advocate gay marriage and there are secular conservatives who are against it as well. There are also atheists who are not "die hard liberals" who advocate allowing same-sex marriages. Once again, you're making things seem black and white when there are many, many shades of gray.
I would say that it shouldn't even take one book to understand what atheism is. The book kingray100 is referring to is probably a Christian book about atheism, which may be where many of his misconceptions of atheism are from. If you check the Wikipedia entry on atheism, it seems better than most books in defining atheism.
I agree with all of Alex's statements on this one.