Quote: Evil is not an entity unto
itself, evil is the lacking of good.
I don't know how many times I can hear this, but it is stupid... Evil in itself
can have a quantitative statement and a qualitative statement. Anyways, if evil
is the lack of good, then that means good is the lack of evil...
Quote: Pagan religions have been
seen as evil for a long, long time now. The Jews even had a rule that they could
not enter certain areas and homes of the romans because they would be defiled by
them for their worship of other gods. Many kings of Isreal were called evil or
at least "did evil in the sight of the Lord" because they too
worshiped other gods and set up temples and pillars and offerings to other
gods.
But seriously, is it actually evil? If you're going to exile other people,
that's worse than just worshipping someone else. Not only does exile disallow
understanding, it creates stereotypes and other ignorant thoughts. Rumors will
spread and for all we know, those rumors can cause the death of others.
there's nothing wrong with wicca, I find it quite interesting myself. But, as it
goes, there's always some a hole that thinks it's wrong...there's always some a
hole that thinks if you don't follow what they follow you are evil and
such...
that's why I don't bother with religion, seems to make people so mad...when all
we gotta do is say 'hey, you believe in that...so what!'
>.< I can't get into this, I get quite "evil" :P when it comes
to religion. I don't have a big problem with it or anything, I just get angry
when people call me evil and immoral because I am agnostic (a very hardcore
one), and then push their religion unto me. I don't got a problem with what you
believe or anything (some of the stories (and that's all they are) are very
interesting), just don't shove it on me and call me and then call me evil....I
mean come on Freedom of Religion anybody?
Quote: Evil is not an entity unto itself, evil is the
lacking of good.
I don't know how many times I can hear this, but it is stupid... Evil in itself
can have a quantitative statement and a qualitative statement. Anyways, if evil
is the lack of good, then that means good is the lack of evil...
Quote: Pagan religions have been
seen as evil for a long, long time now. The Jews even had a rule that they could
not enter certain areas and homes of the romans because they would be defiled by
them for their worship of other gods. Many kings of Isreal were called evil or
at least "did evil in the sight of the Lord" because they too
worshiped other gods and set up temples and pillars and offerings to other
gods.
But seriously, is it actually evil? If you're going to exile other people,
that's worse than just worshipping someone else. Not only does exile disallow
understanding, it creates stereotypes and other ignorant thoughts. Rumors will
spread and for all we know, those rumors can cause the death of
others.
I havn't been saying whether it is evil or not you realize, I've been saying
this is the mentality of those who may think it to be, this is their background,
this is where they are coming from.
As for the evil thing, the reason for that is that evil is not found except
connected in some way to a good. Since existence itself is good, anything that
exists is to some degree good, and thus all evil is attatched to a good.
Generally speaking, evil is not done for the sake of evil, but done for a good
wrongly. Much that is evil, if not all, is simply a distorted form of good.
Good, however, can and does exist on its own, without any evil. I like using the
term lacking of good for evil, but you can use other terms such as a distorted
good or whatnot. In any case, if you were to say that good is the lacking of
evil, you would pretty much just be saying that it is lacking of impurities.
I do not know what you are trying to base this on, because good is something
made up by humans, not a law connected to the fabric of space time. Basicaly,
anything that can be of use to humans is good. Anything that is annoying or not
beneficial, is bad. Quite simple really. Besides, you wouoldnt call a person who
is neutral, good or evil. If you work in a logging industry and you find a rock
laying by a small creak, are you going to think its good or evil? "Looks
like a good rock to me Earl, no evil in this one". Anyway, there are no
such things as impurities either. You can go ahead and tell me what these
impurities might be, cause I'm sure I'd like to hear what you have in store.
With regard to impurities I meant in the general sense like people refer to,
say, metals that are without impurities (other substances), or like Steal which
is, in a simplistic explination, Iron that has had its impurities removed.
But you seem to be opporating on quite a different idea of good. The good I
speak of is far from being something made up by man, quite different. Good, in
traditional philosophy, for instance, is that which corrisponds to the objective
right and truth and laws of the universe. A step beyond that, still in
philosophy, good is that which acts in accordance with its own nature and serves
to fulfill and foreward its nature toward perfection. And, a step beyond that
(although this idea is actually older than the other philisophical ideas I
mentioned), good is that which is aligned to God and the Will of God, the source
of good and author of natures. This makes good, in fact, objective since it is
measured upon a single, universal standard.
You didn't really contridict me in your example though. You had a person saying
something "looks good to me", meaning by his/her judgment, the rock
was good, in accordance with some standard which at least the two held in common
otherwise there would have been no sense in mentioning it, and you said "no
evil in this one", which seems to me to indicate it had no impurities, as
the only situation I can think of where I might need a rock without evil in it
would be to construct something or other, and I wouldn't want impurities in it
otherwise whatever I make of it might break, thus it is good insofar as it lacks
that which takes away from its state of wholeness and perfection, or you could
just as easily say it is good because it is what is needed, and it would be bad
because it had something not proper to it. But generally you don't speak about
inanimate objects being evil in a proper sense, human actions are generally the
only ones we talk about in moralities terms of good and evil because theres a
choice in the matter, and only when a free being makes a choice can something
stray away properly from the good of the universe, or Divine Will, or whatever
you prefer to refer to.
With regard to impurities I meant in the general sense like
people refer to, say, metals that are without impurities (other substances), or
like Steal which is, in a simplistic explination, Iron that has had its
impurities removed.
Errr... it's steel, not steal, and iron without it's impurities is iron, and
steel is iron with other substances reinforcing it and such is steel... Steel
can contain carbon materials and there are many forms of steel.
Quote: But you seem to be
opporating on quite a different idea of good. The good I speak of is far from
being something made up by man, quite different. Good, in traditional
philosophy, for instance, is that which corrisponds to the objective right and
truth and laws of the universe. A step beyond that, still in philosophy, good is
that which acts in accordance with its own nature and serves to fulfill and
foreward its nature toward perfection. And, a step beyond that (although this
idea is actually older than the other philisophical ideas I mentioned), good is
that which is aligned to God and the Will of God, the source of good and author
of natures. This makes good, in fact, objective since it is measured upon a
single, universal standard.
Errr.. again, you're arguing at the sake of your religion, heck, this thread is
of Wicca, not Christianity...
Quote: You didn't really contridict
me in your example though. You had a person saying something "looks good to
me", meaning by his/her judgment, the rock was good, in accordance with
some standard which at least the two held in common otherwise there would have
been no sense in mentioning it, and you said "no evil in this one",
which seems to me to indicate it had no impurities, as the only situation I can
think of where I might need a rock without evil in it would be to construct
something or other, and I wouldn't want impurities in it otherwise whatever I
make of it might break, thus it is good insofar as it lacks that which takes
away from its state of wholeness and perfection, or you could just as easily say
it is good because it is what is needed, and it would be bad because it had
something not proper to it. But generally you don't speak about inanimate
objects being evil in a proper sense, human actions are generally the only ones
we talk about in moralities terms of good and evil because theres a choice in
the matter, and only when a free being makes a choice can something stray away
properly from the good of the universe, or Divine Will, or whatever you prefer
to refer to.
So... you wouldn't consider guns evil? It's inanimate, heck, it was designed to
kill, and that's the main function. If you say it's us, sure, but who made it,
it's us...
Morality and good evil such things, do not have to be of religious views, in
fact, it's annoying when people put it in religious view...
Throughout, you used evil imporperly. Evil refers to someone who has done
someone who has done something profoundly immoral. Now, if a rock were evil, im
sure it must have murdered someone or something like that. Anyway, even if the
rock were to have impurities in it that made it undesirable, that only makes the
rock bad for certain construction or other perposes if desired. Impurities are
mearly the material that are undesired inside the material people want. Infact,
the word bad could be comparable to the word weed. lol, not marijuana of course.
The weeds in a garden are planets the person doesnt want in their garden. If you
dont like tulips, its a weed. If you dont like dandelions, its a weed. The word
stands for things we dont want and obstruct what we do want. Now I'm not going
to go into morals because then we would have to start discrediting the bible,
which would stray from the argument. Actually, we have strayed from the main
question. I would say that according to certain religions wicca's are considered
evil as they beleve it to be moraly wrong, whether or not it is used for good.
They believe that your power comes from the devil. Mostly I'm talking about
evangelical christians who do that.
Quote by marfish14Throughout, you used
evil imporperly. Evil refers to someone who has done someone who has done
something profoundly immoral. Now, if a rock were evil, im sure it must have
murdered someone or something like that. Anyway, even if the rock were to have
impurities in it that made it undesirable, that only makes the rock bad for
certain construction or other perposes if desired. Impurities are mearly the
material that are undesired inside the material people want. Infact, the word
bad could be comparable to the word weed. lol, not marijuana of course. The
weeds in a garden are planets the person doesnt want in their garden. If you
dont like tulips, its a weed. If you dont like dandelions, its a weed. The word
stands for things we dont want and obstruct what we do want. Now I'm not going
to go into morals because then we would have to start discrediting the bible,
which would stray from the argument. Actually, we have strayed from the main
question. I would say that according to certain religions wicca's are considered
evil as they beleve it to be moraly wrong, whether or not it is used for good.
They believe that your power comes from the devil. Mostly I'm talking about
evangelical christians who do that.
I'm not entirely sure who you're directing that first part at, since you pretty
much said what I said in the latter part of my own earlier post: That a rock is
not evil in the proper sense, only free human acts and intelligent beings can be
evil in the proper sense.
Bad is often used to describe something we simply don't like or want, but it has
another use as something which simply is not good, in a moral sense, which
doesn't neccessarily have to do with whether we like it or not, we could very
well like something that is bad.
With
regard to impurities I meant in the general sense like people refer to, say,
metals that are without impurities (other substances), or like Steal which is,
in a simplistic explination, Iron that has had its impurities
removed.
Errr... it's steel, not steal, and iron without it's impurities is iron, and
steel is iron with other substances reinforcing it and such is steel... Steel
can contain carbon materials and there are many forms of steel.
Quote: But you seem to be
opporating on quite a different idea of good. The good I speak of is far from
being something made up by man, quite different. Good, in traditional
philosophy, for instance, is that which corrisponds to the objective right and
truth and laws of the universe. A step beyond that, still in philosophy, good is
that which acts in accordance with its own nature and serves to fulfill and
foreward its nature toward perfection. And, a step beyond that (although this
idea is actually older than the other philisophical ideas I mentioned), good is
that which is aligned to God and the Will of God, the source of good and author
of natures. This makes good, in fact, objective since it is measured upon a
single, universal standard.
Errr.. again, you're arguing at the sake of your religion, heck, this thread is
of Wicca, not Christianity...
Quote: You didn't really contridict
me in your example though. You had a person saying something "looks good to
me", meaning by his/her judgment, the rock was good, in accordance with
some standard which at least the two held in common otherwise there would have
been no sense in mentioning it, and you said "no evil in this one",
which seems to me to indicate it had no impurities, as the only situation I can
think of where I might need a rock without evil in it would be to construct
something or other, and I wouldn't want impurities in it otherwise whatever I
make of it might break, thus it is good insofar as it lacks that which takes
away from its state of wholeness and perfection, or you could just as easily say
it is good because it is what is needed, and it would be bad because it had
something not proper to it. But generally you don't speak about inanimate
objects being evil in a proper sense, human actions are generally the only ones
we talk about in moralities terms of good and evil because theres a choice in
the matter, and only when a free being makes a choice can something stray away
properly from the good of the universe, or Divine Will, or whatever you prefer
to refer to.
So... you wouldn't consider guns evil? It's inanimate, heck, it was designed to
kill, and that's the main function. If you say it's us, sure, but who made it,
it's us...
Morality and good evil such things, do not have to be of religious views, in
fact, it's annoying when people put it in religious
view...
I said in a simple sense on the steel thing. Yes, it wasn't quite right, but I
thought it got the point across anyway. You do get rid of impurities in iron in
the process of making steel, impurities such as oxygen and sulfur, and alloy it
with a little carbon. Thats really not the point of what I was saying
though.
I was arguing from that point, as I've been saying, as a way to EXPLAIN why SOME
people think Wicca is evil, which is the topic of this discussion. Jews,
Christians, and Muslims are among that group, so I am explaining their side,
particularly the Christians as I know them best.
And no, I wouldn't concider guns evil. marfish14, it seems, would actually agree
with me there. And you said guns were designed to kill, but not neccessarily to
kill humans. They could and are used for hunting purposes as well, which serves
to gain food and nurishment. But either way, guns are not evil, they are a
device, they do not choose to do anything. They can be used for evil purposes,
but the evil lies upon the person freely acting for evil purposes.
I don't know why you're so annoyed by morality being in religious views. As far
as I can tell, thats where it started, at least for many cultures and thats also
the context in which it has grown. And without a religious view morality can
easier fall apart and be left simply with relativism.
Quote: And no, I wouldn't concider
guns evil. marfish14, it seems, would actually agree with me there. And you said
guns were designed to kill, but not neccessarily to kill humans. They could and
are used for hunting purposes as well, which serves to gain food and nurishment.
But either way, guns are not evil, they are a device, they do not choose to do
anything. They can be used for evil purposes, but the evil lies upon the person
freely acting for evil purposes.
Oh right, it's like power, it's not good or bad, just depends on how you use
it...
As the vast majority or all Christians would say that satan is evil, who created
him? Well, apparently it's your god... The only problem I see with this though,
if he's evil, so then goes with guns. That also makes him a tool, which the
ideas of satan actually is a tool nowadays... to make people fear and such...
Heck, how about I put tanks and fighter jets into the picture, they're tools,
the only reason they were created was for war, they are also considered
"War machines"...
Quote: I don't know why you're so
annoyed by morality being in religious views. As far as I can tell, thats where
it started, at least for many cultures and thats also the context in which it
has grown. And without a religious view morality can easier fall apart and be
left simply with relativism.
Right there is why I get annoyed by morality being of religious view. If
morality was of a religious view, how did people like 9 thousand years ago or
something to that extent live together? Was religion existing back then? Heck,
we won't know, but the chances of that are slim to none, heck, society is one of
the biggest reasons why morality is such.
Quote: And no, I wouldn't concider guns evil. marfish14, it
seems, would actually agree with me there. And you said guns were designed to
kill, but not neccessarily to kill humans. They could and are used for hunting
purposes as well, which serves to gain food and nurishment. But either way, guns
are not evil, they are a device, they do not choose to do anything. They can be
used for evil purposes, but the evil lies upon the person freely acting for evil
purposes.
Oh right, it's like power, it's not good or bad, just depends on how you use
it...
As the vast majority or all Christians would say that satan is evil, who created
him? Well, apparently it's your god... The only problem I see with this though,
if he's evil, so then goes with guns. That also makes him a tool, which the
ideas of satan actually is a tool nowadays... to make people fear and such...
Heck, how about I put tanks and fighter jets into the picture, they're tools,
the only reason they were created was for war, they are also considered
"War machines"...
Quote: I don't know why you're so
annoyed by morality being in religious views. As far as I can tell, thats where
it started, at least for many cultures and thats also the context in which it
has grown. And without a religious view morality can easier fall apart and be
left simply with relativism.
Right there is why I get annoyed by morality being of religious view. If
morality was of a religious view, how did people like 9 thousand years ago or
something to that extent live together? Was religion existing back then? Heck,
we won't know, but the chances of that are slim to none, heck, society is one of
the biggest reasons why morality is such.
This is a tad umm... off topic...
Satan is concidered evil because he freely choose to go against God, and
continues to lead others to do the same. The angels, like humans, also have free
will, they just generally make their choice once and are set, as far as our
understanding on that subject goes anyway. If you say that Satan is used as a
tool, that is simply a problem with peoples understanding, there are many of
them. And yes, Satan was created by God at one time, but he was not created
evil. On the contrary, the belief is that for a time he was the highest of
angels and "reflected the light of God" better than anything else. But
he became filled with pride and choose to challange God and is now the most
wicked. This is a common concept that those who have the potential to be most
good are also those who have the potential for most evil.
Religions have been around thosands of years, Hinduism has been around quite a
while, and various forms of paganism, and there have been simpler religious
forms for longer. But society hasn't been around all that long as you seem to
think, at least not sophisticated ones, and what makes you think the
understanding and idea of morality has been around so long? People can have a
society that works more or less without understanding morality for a time.
Quote: Satan is concidered evil
because he freely choose to go against God, and continues to lead others to do
the same. The angels, like humans, also have free will, they just generally make
their choice once and are set, as far as our understanding on that subject goes
anyway. If you say that Satan is used as a tool, that is simply a problem with
peoples understanding, there are many of them. And yes, Satan was created by God
at one time, but he was not created evil. On the contrary, the belief is that
for a time he was the highest of angels and "reflected the light of
God" better than anything else. But he became filled with pride and choose
to challange God and is now the most wicked. This is a common concept that those
who have the potential to be most good are also those who have the potential for
most evil.
And the god concept shall be restated, if god created everything, it created
everything including time, it created everything including every intentions that
satan have and will have. It sounds like god is just out there so it can be
praised... how annoying is that.
Quote: Religions have been around
thosands of years, Hinduism has been around quite a while, and various forms of
paganism, and there have been simpler religious forms for longer. But society
hasn't been around all that long as you seem to think, at least not
sophisticated ones, and what makes you think the understanding and idea of
morality has been around so long? People can have a society that works more or
less without understanding morality for a time.
So, lets say in a society, if we have a 10 people, everybody has a job, and one
person hates another person, would they kill him, chances are no. The person may
hate him/her, but given the situation (I forgot to mention time period, 9000
years ago) they are literally technology deprived, not only will killing that
person will hinder the group. Obviously you can state that he/she won't kill the
person because of the group, but chances are, guilt will slap him/her in the
face and the chances of the people within the group will want to kill him/her.
Hate broods more hate. :P Anyways, all of this are possible and not possible
situation, just an example.
merged: 08-30-2007 ~ 01:46pm
Oh yes, I forgot... what does this have anything to do with Wicca?
Um well this has gotten somewhat off-topic...
Anyway back to the topic:
Is Wicca evil or good? I'd say neither. People think that it's is evil just
because it goes against their own personal beliefs, be it religious or not.
They're basically afraid of things that are foreign to them. I won't go into
details, as someone had already explained that view in the first few
posts.
I mean, how would you describe a Wiccan (considered to be evil) who does good
things for mankind, as opposed to a Christian/Muslim/Buddhist/others (considered
to be good) who commits crimes and such? Would you still call that Wiccan evil?
I'm Wiccan myself so naturally I don't run away from others (in fact, since I
live in NZ and there isn't a heck of a lot of other Pagans around, I try to
coomunicate with any other Pagans in the area, which is much helped by the Pagan
Club which I go to at University). I think you've got to get used to others
calling Wicca evil though, or just simply not liking it. It's not a matter of
you or other Wiccans saying that we don't worship the Devil, because according
to classical Christian doctrine, ANY other religion other than Christianity is
not the right one - whether that's Wiccan, Buddhist or Hinduism, etc.
Morality is simply derived from human culture, but you of course believe that it
is somehow weaved into the universe. Anyway, the word "Good" and
"Bad" are basically words to divide the things we like and do not
like. We could senslessly murder a different nation of people because we
believed them to be bad. Now, in their country this would not be morally wrong
if they believed what they were doing was right. There is no law of the universe
telling us what is right and wrong, you could go out and murder someone you dont
like and only people would punish you because they believe it to be wrong. I
personally am fine with these set of morals, but they are certainly not rules we
have to abide by. What religion did for many cultures, was it frightened its
people into obeying and not doing anything that was not proper to their culture.
So it did help to make people tame, but was have schools to hammer these morals
into the minds of children and police to enforce them, so we are no longer in
need of religion. Well, guns were made with the soul perpose of killing, so I
wouldnt call them good.
Quote by crsgIt's not a matter of you or
other Wiccans saying that we don't worship the Devil, because according to
classical Christian doctrine, ANY other religion other than Christianity is not
the right one - whether that's Wiccan, Buddhist or Hinduism, etc.
How could it be otherwise? If Hinduism was true, Christianity would be untrue,
so it's basically necessary for Christians (and other non-Wiccans) to deny the
validity of Wicca. That doesn't make it evil though.
Well, what people don't understand usually is what they fear. Another thing is
whatever goes against their belief usually is what they consider evil, even
though it really actually isn't. Its sad really, people assume a lot of things
without trying to understand it. Racism is one of the easiest example and
especially during the earlier times during slave trade and such where people
have absolutely no understanding, exactly why there were so many problems.
Quote by royaldarknessUm well this
has gotten somewhat off-topic...
Anyway back to the topic:
Is Wicca evil or good? I'd say neither. People think that it's is evil just
because it goes against their own personal beliefs, be it religious or not.
They're basically afraid of things that are foreign to them. I won't go into
details, as someone had already explained that view in the first few
posts.
I mean, how would you describe a Wiccan (considered to be evil) who does good
things for mankind, as opposed to a Christian/Muslim/Buddhist/others (considered
to be good) who commits crimes and such? Would you still call that Wiccan
evil?
Buddhism does not claim monopoly of the truth, hence
does not condemn any other religion as evil or wrong. So, from a Buddhism
standpoint, there's nothing wrong being Wiccan. What only matters is that a
person thinks deeply and without bias, and not be led by mere hearsay, tradition
or some pre-conceived notion.
I was once wiccan before I started turning towards the evil more darker side of
it but if one truly follows the good path then it's not really wrong...it
becomes wrong when the user becomes wrong in thus meaning they start dabbling in
the dark arts and find they begin to truly like maybe even love it then that is
bad more than just wrong
I don't know how many times I can hear this, but it is stupid... Evil in itself can have a quantitative statement and a qualitative statement. Anyways, if evil is the lack of good, then that means good is the lack of evil...
But seriously, is it actually evil? If you're going to exile other people, that's worse than just worshipping someone else. Not only does exile disallow understanding, it creates stereotypes and other ignorant thoughts. Rumors will spread and for all we know, those rumors can cause the death of others.
there's nothing wrong with wicca, I find it quite interesting myself. But, as it goes, there's always some a hole that thinks it's wrong...there's always some a hole that thinks if you don't follow what they follow you are evil and such...
that's why I don't bother with religion, seems to make people so mad...when all we gotta do is say 'hey, you believe in that...so what!'
>.< I can't get into this, I get quite "evil" :P when it comes to religion. I don't have a big problem with it or anything, I just get angry when people call me evil and immoral because I am agnostic (a very hardcore one), and then push their religion unto me. I don't got a problem with what you believe or anything (some of the stories (and that's all they are) are very interesting), just don't shove it on me and call me and then call me evil....I mean come on Freedom of Religion anybody?
I havn't been saying whether it is evil or not you realize, I've been saying this is the mentality of those who may think it to be, this is their background, this is where they are coming from.
As for the evil thing, the reason for that is that evil is not found except connected in some way to a good. Since existence itself is good, anything that exists is to some degree good, and thus all evil is attatched to a good. Generally speaking, evil is not done for the sake of evil, but done for a good wrongly. Much that is evil, if not all, is simply a distorted form of good. Good, however, can and does exist on its own, without any evil. I like using the term lacking of good for evil, but you can use other terms such as a distorted good or whatnot. In any case, if you were to say that good is the lacking of evil, you would pretty much just be saying that it is lacking of impurities.
I do not know what you are trying to base this on, because good is something made up by humans, not a law connected to the fabric of space time. Basicaly, anything that can be of use to humans is good. Anything that is annoying or not beneficial, is bad. Quite simple really. Besides, you wouoldnt call a person who is neutral, good or evil. If you work in a logging industry and you find a rock laying by a small creak, are you going to think its good or evil? "Looks like a good rock to me Earl, no evil in this one". Anyway, there are no such things as impurities either. You can go ahead and tell me what these impurities might be, cause I'm sure I'd like to hear what you have in store.
With regard to impurities I meant in the general sense like people refer to, say, metals that are without impurities (other substances), or like Steal which is, in a simplistic explination, Iron that has had its impurities removed.
But you seem to be opporating on quite a different idea of good. The good I speak of is far from being something made up by man, quite different. Good, in traditional philosophy, for instance, is that which corrisponds to the objective right and truth and laws of the universe. A step beyond that, still in philosophy, good is that which acts in accordance with its own nature and serves to fulfill and foreward its nature toward perfection. And, a step beyond that (although this idea is actually older than the other philisophical ideas I mentioned), good is that which is aligned to God and the Will of God, the source of good and author of natures. This makes good, in fact, objective since it is measured upon a single, universal standard.
You didn't really contridict me in your example though. You had a person saying something "looks good to me", meaning by his/her judgment, the rock was good, in accordance with some standard which at least the two held in common otherwise there would have been no sense in mentioning it, and you said "no evil in this one", which seems to me to indicate it had no impurities, as the only situation I can think of where I might need a rock without evil in it would be to construct something or other, and I wouldn't want impurities in it otherwise whatever I make of it might break, thus it is good insofar as it lacks that which takes away from its state of wholeness and perfection, or you could just as easily say it is good because it is what is needed, and it would be bad because it had something not proper to it. But generally you don't speak about inanimate objects being evil in a proper sense, human actions are generally the only ones we talk about in moralities terms of good and evil because theres a choice in the matter, and only when a free being makes a choice can something stray away properly from the good of the universe, or Divine Will, or whatever you prefer to refer to.
With regard to impurities I meant in the general sense like people refer to, say, metals that are without impurities (other substances), or like Steal which is, in a simplistic explination, Iron that has had its impurities removed.
Errr... it's steel, not steal, and iron without it's impurities is iron, and steel is iron with other substances reinforcing it and such is steel... Steel can contain carbon materials and there are many forms of steel.
Errr.. again, you're arguing at the sake of your religion, heck, this thread is of Wicca, not Christianity...
So... you wouldn't consider guns evil? It's inanimate, heck, it was designed to kill, and that's the main function. If you say it's us, sure, but who made it, it's us...
Morality and good evil such things, do not have to be of religious views, in fact, it's annoying when people put it in religious view...
Throughout, you used evil imporperly. Evil refers to someone who has done someone who has done something profoundly immoral. Now, if a rock were evil, im sure it must have murdered someone or something like that. Anyway, even if the rock were to have impurities in it that made it undesirable, that only makes the rock bad for certain construction or other perposes if desired. Impurities are mearly the material that are undesired inside the material people want. Infact, the word bad could be comparable to the word weed. lol, not marijuana of course. The weeds in a garden are planets the person doesnt want in their garden. If you dont like tulips, its a weed. If you dont like dandelions, its a weed. The word stands for things we dont want and obstruct what we do want. Now I'm not going to go into morals because then we would have to start discrediting the bible, which would stray from the argument. Actually, we have strayed from the main question. I would say that according to certain religions wicca's are considered evil as they beleve it to be moraly wrong, whether or not it is used for good. They believe that your power comes from the devil. Mostly I'm talking about evangelical christians who do that.
I'm not entirely sure who you're directing that first part at, since you pretty much said what I said in the latter part of my own earlier post: That a rock is not evil in the proper sense, only free human acts and intelligent beings can be evil in the proper sense.
Bad is often used to describe something we simply don't like or want, but it has another use as something which simply is not good, in a moral sense, which doesn't neccessarily have to do with whether we like it or not, we could very well like something that is bad.
merged: 08-29-2007 ~ 11:39am
With regard to impurities I meant in the general sense like people refer to, say, metals that are without impurities (other substances), or like Steal which is, in a simplistic explination, Iron that has had its impurities removed.
Errr... it's steel, not steal, and iron without it's impurities is iron, and steel is iron with other substances reinforcing it and such is steel... Steel can contain carbon materials and there are many forms of steel.
Errr.. again, you're arguing at the sake of your religion, heck, this thread is of Wicca, not Christianity...
So... you wouldn't consider guns evil? It's inanimate, heck, it was designed to kill, and that's the main function. If you say it's us, sure, but who made it, it's us...
Morality and good evil such things, do not have to be of religious views, in fact, it's annoying when people put it in religious view...
I said in a simple sense on the steel thing. Yes, it wasn't quite right, but I thought it got the point across anyway. You do get rid of impurities in iron in the process of making steel, impurities such as oxygen and sulfur, and alloy it with a little carbon. Thats really not the point of what I was saying though.
I was arguing from that point, as I've been saying, as a way to EXPLAIN why SOME people think Wicca is evil, which is the topic of this discussion. Jews, Christians, and Muslims are among that group, so I am explaining their side, particularly the Christians as I know them best.
And no, I wouldn't concider guns evil. marfish14, it seems, would actually agree with me there. And you said guns were designed to kill, but not neccessarily to kill humans. They could and are used for hunting purposes as well, which serves to gain food and nurishment. But either way, guns are not evil, they are a device, they do not choose to do anything. They can be used for evil purposes, but the evil lies upon the person freely acting for evil purposes.
I don't know why you're so annoyed by morality being in religious views. As far as I can tell, thats where it started, at least for many cultures and thats also the context in which it has grown. And without a religious view morality can easier fall apart and be left simply with relativism.
Oh right, it's like power, it's not good or bad, just depends on how you use it...
As the vast majority or all Christians would say that satan is evil, who created him? Well, apparently it's your god... The only problem I see with this though, if he's evil, so then goes with guns. That also makes him a tool, which the ideas of satan actually is a tool nowadays... to make people fear and such...
Heck, how about I put tanks and fighter jets into the picture, they're tools, the only reason they were created was for war, they are also considered "War machines"...
Right there is why I get annoyed by morality being of religious view. If morality was of a religious view, how did people like 9 thousand years ago or something to that extent live together? Was religion existing back then? Heck, we won't know, but the chances of that are slim to none, heck, society is one of the biggest reasons why morality is such.
This is a tad umm... off topic...
Satan is concidered evil because he freely choose to go against God, and continues to lead others to do the same. The angels, like humans, also have free will, they just generally make their choice once and are set, as far as our understanding on that subject goes anyway. If you say that Satan is used as a tool, that is simply a problem with peoples understanding, there are many of them. And yes, Satan was created by God at one time, but he was not created evil. On the contrary, the belief is that for a time he was the highest of angels and "reflected the light of God" better than anything else. But he became filled with pride and choose to challange God and is now the most wicked. This is a common concept that those who have the potential to be most good are also those who have the potential for most evil.
Religions have been around thosands of years, Hinduism has been around quite a while, and various forms of paganism, and there have been simpler religious forms for longer. But society hasn't been around all that long as you seem to think, at least not sophisticated ones, and what makes you think the understanding and idea of morality has been around so long? People can have a society that works more or less without understanding morality for a time.
How do you equate murder, theft, and lying with Wicca? A Wiccan is not harming anyone else by being a non-Christian, Gau.
And the god concept shall be restated, if god created everything, it created everything including time, it created everything including every intentions that satan have and will have. It sounds like god is just out there so it can be praised... how annoying is that.
So, lets say in a society, if we have a 10 people, everybody has a job, and one person hates another person, would they kill him, chances are no. The person may hate him/her, but given the situation (I forgot to mention time period, 9000 years ago) they are literally technology deprived, not only will killing that person will hinder the group. Obviously you can state that he/she won't kill the person because of the group, but chances are, guilt will slap him/her in the face and the chances of the people within the group will want to kill him/her. Hate broods more hate. :P Anyways, all of this are possible and not possible situation, just an example.
merged: 08-30-2007 ~ 01:46pm
Oh yes, I forgot... what does this have anything to do with Wicca?
Um well this has gotten somewhat off-topic...
Anyway back to the topic:
Is Wicca evil or good? I'd say neither. People think that it's is evil just because it goes against their own personal beliefs, be it religious or not. They're basically afraid of things that are foreign to them. I won't go into details, as someone had already explained that view in the first few posts.
I mean, how would you describe a Wiccan (considered to be evil) who does good things for mankind, as opposed to a Christian/Muslim/Buddhist/others (considered to be good) who commits crimes and such? Would you still call that Wiccan evil?
It's not that it's evil. It's just unnatural.
What about it is unnatural?
I'm Wiccan myself so naturally I don't run away from others (in fact, since I live in NZ and there isn't a heck of a lot of other Pagans around, I try to coomunicate with any other Pagans in the area, which is much helped by the Pagan Club which I go to at University). I think you've got to get used to others calling Wicca evil though, or just simply not liking it. It's not a matter of you or other Wiccans saying that we don't worship the Devil, because according to classical Christian doctrine, ANY other religion other than Christianity is not the right one - whether that's Wiccan, Buddhist or Hinduism, etc.
People are frightened by what they do not know.. That's all..
Morality is simply derived from human culture, but you of course believe that it is somehow weaved into the universe. Anyway, the word "Good" and "Bad" are basically words to divide the things we like and do not like. We could senslessly murder a different nation of people because we believed them to be bad. Now, in their country this would not be morally wrong if they believed what they were doing was right. There is no law of the universe telling us what is right and wrong, you could go out and murder someone you dont like and only people would punish you because they believe it to be wrong. I personally am fine with these set of morals, but they are certainly not rules we have to abide by. What religion did for many cultures, was it frightened its people into obeying and not doing anything that was not proper to their culture. So it did help to make people tame, but was have schools to hammer these morals into the minds of children and police to enforce them, so we are no longer in need of religion. Well, guns were made with the soul perpose of killing, so I wouldnt call them good.
How could it be otherwise? If Hinduism was true, Christianity would be untrue, so it's basically necessary for Christians (and other non-Wiccans) to deny the validity of Wicca. That doesn't make it evil though.
ok i think this topic just got way out of hand. all i want to know is why can't people understand that us wiccas are not evil.
I consider it more like white magic...........................................
Well, what people don't understand usually is what they fear. Another thing is whatever goes against their belief usually is what they consider evil, even though it really actually isn't. Its sad really, people assume a lot of things without trying to understand it. Racism is one of the easiest example and especially during the earlier times during slave trade and such where people have absolutely no understanding, exactly why there were so many problems.
Buddhism does not claim monopoly of the truth, hence does not condemn any other religion as evil or wrong. So, from a Buddhism standpoint, there's nothing wrong being Wiccan. What only matters is that a person thinks deeply and without bias, and not be led by mere hearsay, tradition or some pre-conceived notion.
I was once wiccan before I started turning towards the evil more darker side of it but if one truly follows the good path then it's not really wrong...it becomes wrong when the user becomes wrong in thus meaning they start dabbling in the dark arts and find they begin to truly like maybe even love it then that is bad more than just wrong