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tree of knowledge, why?

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ironmaiden

ironmaiden

back from the dead

why was it called the 'tree of knowledge of good and bad'?

i've read from a catholic book that it is because its fruit symbolizes God's command, its fruit to decide for his creatures what is "good" or what is "bad" for them.

what do you think? OX

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joemighty16

joemighty16

Hope is an optimist

I think there were 2 trees, one of knowledge, and one of good and bad. They weren't allowed to eat from the tree of knowledge since knowledge were the domain of the gods. Too much knowledge made you think you are worth more and makes you want to do things you aren't supposed to do.

Go check Frankenstein - it was written during some or other technological revolution and its basically a warning not to play god. Also the Tower of Babel - it was a warning: Know your place. The people live down here, the gods live in heaven.

They could eat from the tree of good and bad to be able to distinguish between the two, but not from the tree of knowledge, since knowlegde may disturb people.

You decide what you want to make of it. I prefer to use my brain mass - I blieve that God gave me that and that it is in fact an insult to Him not to use it.

Life is a game played by gods who are bored and who fight over the rules.

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Hmm...I think the "tree of knowledge" and all that was created by the church a looooooong time ago so that the pheasants wouldn't want to go find things out. The more stupid people in the world following them, the more power and money they had. The Tree of Knowledge was just an example of that--a fairytale to scare them away.

fooblued

fooblued

British Fetishist

Yeah, I think squid has it dead on here. If people didn't blindly follow oders for church and state (which consiquently took hold in society about the same time as each other) and go to war or obey the rich. Of course the idea that thinking for your self is a sin or *ahem* "unpatriotic" is still quite a popular ideal.

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Shamshiel

Shamshiel

Crawling Chaos

Its the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree of Life.
If you want to know more about the mythology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_Knowledge_of_Good_and_Evil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_Life

fooblued and squid are right about why the story was invented. Although its so the PEASANTS wouldn't find things out. The Church really didn't care about birds finding things out.

joemighty16

joemighty16

Hope is an optimist

Well, the story - call it mythology - has been around loooong before the church. The tradition has been around since the exile (500 BC) as is implied in the above mentioned articles since the Jews got the tree-motive from Babylonia.

Personnaly I don't think that they invented this myth to keep the peasants (in this case Israelites) obedient, but it is supposed to explain why the world is such as it is. Its an aetiological myth (it explains the origin). People suffer down here while the gods live like in heaven because...

Go check http://www.answers.com/creation%20myths for a very extensive if a bit log article on the whole point of creation myths. It explains how the world came to be, but more important why the social order (i.e. men and gods) is as it currently is. The gods is in heaven, and man is on earth. In most creation myths man mucked up in the beginning and were condemmed to slave on earth while the gods live in heaven.

Life is a game played by gods who are bored and who fight over the rules.

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Sunira

Sunira

www.sunira.net

I thought it was just a symbol of the first sin. Direct disobedience to God.

joemighty16

joemighty16

Hope is an optimist

True - and BECAUSE of that 1st sin, the social order is as it is. Because of man's disobedience he was punished and subsequently is still punished. He is doomed to slog on the earth, while the gods live in the heavenly abode (I interpret this in the context of the original Mesopotamian version, the Enuma Elish, as well as some other versions).

In those days they only needed a reason, not an explanation, and the tree were that reason.

Life is a game played by gods who are bored and who fight over the rules.

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saiyukifan

saiyukifan

GOMENASAI EVERYONE. :(

God warned Adam and Eve not to eat any fruit from the Tree of Knowledge because it would give them knowledge about the opposite of Good, which is evil.

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Sunlight is what I want, but sunlight ignores me... I wish I would someday be freed from this darkness by someone who will love me forever and ever... no more pain at all with him... no more pain and tears... because I will love him...
~thanks to~
k1ru for my ava and sig! ^_^

so basically anything that questions god is evil? that's a bit of an extreme character... not letting anyone else have their own opinion and say.... should have just created humans with no brains... that might have been easier...

@saiyukifan so we can say that adam and eva were like children+innocent?

coz i dont know this answer ..and thats makes me crazy>,>
i ask again my mother^^'
she knows everything of the bible..

joemighty16

joemighty16

Hope is an optimist

Quote by Sineva@saiyukifan so we can say that adam and eva were like children+innocent?

Thats probably the most apt description. Before they ate of the tree, they were innocent - good and evil held no meaning for them. But after they have eaten, they gained knowledge (they "grew up") and saw the differences between good and evil, right and wrong.

This is not unlike the story of Pandora's box (the Greek verion) - first, man knew nothing of good and evil - unknown, abstract concepts, but then Pandora opened the box, and all the evil flew out. But just before she closed it, Hope flew out as well.

These are all just stories told to explain why there are suffering and evil. Originally man were pure and innocent, but not anymore. These aren't even metaphors or analogies - merely made up explanations of why the world is like it is.

Life is a game played by gods who are bored and who fight over the rules.

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yo..that makes sense+is a good answer

see i think it's even more interesting to ask the following question: what was human kind before eating the forbidden fruit?

and i'll tell you: we had no free choice, everything for us was equal because we could not differ between good and bad, we were just ... animals, brainless, stupid, not-knowing-anything little animals in the kindergarden of god. the question is, did he really want us to be like that? give up everything, even personality just to be free and live a peaceful life in "luxary"? ...

i mean ... come on if i was once to be a brainless creature with no free will or own thoughts ... i'd prefer to die and if people imagine heaven to be like that i'd rather stay away from this place.

so that's at least something to think about when you deal with this topic ... because if we suppose that the whole story is true, and there was a tree of knowledge and a tree of everlasting life and god was afraid that we get its fruit also, then you could come to the conclusion that we were half-godlike at this moment and he was just afraid that something he created could overtake his position - so we had "ultimate knowledge" and we just needed to eat the fruit of "timelessness".

as you see it is also possible to see it from this kind of view, i dont say it's right, but think about it.

SierriusBlack

SierriusBlack

Atheistic Debater

The funny thing is, we have free choice, but according to the Bible, we have to mindlessly follow god if we don't want to be enternally tortured.

A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
-Albert Einstein

There is some very good debate going on here. may things I agree with, and of course much I disagree with. But I think most of you are doing great theological research into the subject and asking all the right questions. However, let me try and steer the perspective a little bit.

Everyone here is under the assumption that the genisis story is false. Nothing but a myth and talen very similiar to other legends of old used to describe man's creation. Some here present some good referecing facts. I'm going to throw some in, and then some faith, and then a concept which some will understand, and many will not. I hope those that do understand take this knowledge and continue to dig deeper.

Widely accepted Fact , yet debatable: Moses wrote the Torah, all first 5 books in the bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) Ref: The King James Version - Table of Contents

In faith, for a long long time, I made the assumption that somehow, someway, the Genesis story, every word was true. Yet somehow, I and probably everyone else was not looking at the prespective correctly. That's when I went on my search. I sought hard to find the answers to many numerous questions, many of which you are asking right now. If I were to give you a fair glimpse of what I now understand, it would probably fill a book and most here would not appreciate reading all of what I would have to say. But I will leave you with this...a sliver of proof

Wikipedia: Bible codes

What does this have to do with proof? Very simple. If you are a mathematician & theorical physicist, and understand the concepts of time travel and higher dimmension matehmatics, you should come to the same conclsion: The bible is a paradox. Paradoxes should not exist. And if they did they could only be created by someone/something that is outside our realm of space/time. It would know our beginning, and our end.

Yet, how can someone/something create a set of books that tells our history, and yet through many ELS methods that take the power of a computer to decipher tell the future (from Moses point of view) of things to come. And yet, we all have free-will, free-chioce? That is a paradox. I doubt anyone human could have truly created this work. In my mind, this must be the word of God.

"May the aquisition of wealth no longer be your driving force." - freshblueO2

"It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish." - Mother Teresa

Shamshiel

Shamshiel

Crawling Chaos

You did read the Criticism section of that, right? If you look hard enough, especially with computers, you can find a pattern in almost anything. It's the way the human mind works, and proves absolutely nothing about the Bible. I also fail to understand how you came to the conclusion that the Bible is a paradox. Are you a mathematician & theorical physicist, and do you understand the concepts of time travel and higher dimmension matehmatics?

To joemighty16; There were 2 trees one of the knowledge of good and evil and one of life (wisdom) just for your 411

merged: 11-19-2005 ~ 03:56am
To everyone else; i understand why all you may doubt the bible (not only genisis) but on the topic of man's creation (sorry origination) i would like to give some food for thought. to those who believe in evolution; do you know how complex this world is in terms of life sustainability is? the big bang theory is the scientific explanation for this world's creation believed by both non believers and believers (referred to as the 'light' in genesis) but my question is how can such a chaotic event produce such a perfect world? Some one once told me, concerning the big bang theory, he told me to think of the pyramids (not actually the pyramids it was a building in my country but i will use the pyramids) somebody planted a bomb next to a pile of stones, blew it up and boom behold the pyramids of egypt. Although the 'probability' aspect of it is what keeps this hypothesis alive there are too many complexities involved what about the human body? any human biologist would tell you how complex the human body really is in great detail. they will tell you about the mind (the greatest computer ever 'created') and how it causes your every move although it feels, conciously, that 'you' actually control your hand when it is really that it is your mind (under your control) actually moves your hand. Im going to leave you with this i understand that according to evolution man's creation started when tiny microscopic organisms combined with other organisms to form a new organism. so what this says to me is that these organism had the 'ability' and the 'intelligence' to produce a smarter, more advanced being than themselves if this is true and knowing that man up to this very day cannot create an being whose intelligence can equal or even outmatch that of a human being's then (enlighten me please) then we did'nt go through an evolution, we devolved

zazuge

Perv

In Quran or Coran or wathever you call it ,the tree was called "khould" it's queat a hard name but it sounds like immortality ,"adam eat every tree fruit you desire but don't approach this (particular)tree or you'll got regrets "The meaning of that tree story is that god forbid the tree just as
a trial ,so humans are like this they want to know why the hell god did forbid this thing so they get attracted to it ,"curiosity" ,was it the first sin?.that's the question.

Belive me and DIE !

erebusnight

::Kickass Imposter!:: <(^.~)>

GOMF had a very good point, which is what I currently think. The Tree of knowledge let us know what is good and what is bad, which is why Adam and Eve were disgusted at their own bodies.

However, what do you think when you look at your gf or your wife? Do you not think she's the most beautiful thing in the world?

We cannot know beauty without knowing the horrid. We cannot know good without knowing evil. We cannot know what pleasure is if we have never felt pain. The Tree of Knowledge has given us the ability to appreciate what we have.

I, for one, am grateful that Adam and Eve disobeyed God.

Someday we'll know
Why Samson loved Delilah
One day I'll go
Dancing on the moon.

I apologize Shamshiel for not replying earlier.

Quote by ShamshielAre you a mathematician & theorical physicist, and do you understand the concepts of time travel and higher dimmension matehmatics?

Well, I guess I wouldn't proclaim to be if I didn't THINK I was. If it's credientials you're after, I'm not afraid to admit that I don't have any. In other words, I currently do not have a college degree. Not becuase I am lazy, but for three reasons: One, I wanted my wife to finish hers first. Two, we are raising a family (two kids) which devotes me to my work as the bread winner. Three, I admit I have a problem with the lack of real education which an affordable college can give me (basicly more money for little schooling). But maybe that one is not a good excuse.

However, if you want to test the accuracy of my adcedmic knowledge, then I encourage you to probe, and not just assume I'm talking nonsense.

Quote by ShamshielYou did read the Criticism section of that, right? If you look hard enough, especially with computers, you can find a pattern in almost anything.

No, I didn't read Wikipedia's entire article, but I am familiar with the critisim. I'm sorry, I was trying not to sound like a "know-it-all," but I perhaps need to mention I am a 12 year computer programmer/systems analyst. I currently write medical software. In my earlier years before programming, I studied the arts of cryptography and decoding messages.

It is true, you can find patterns in almost anything. However, patterns is a very general term indeed. Water ripples are patterns. Pi, is a pattern. 1/9 is a pattern. Fractals are patterns. But the shear complexity of patterns that stems from the "bible code" stretches beyond most people's realm of understanding, natural law, and science. My theorical opinion is, "only a being of intellegence outside humanity's realm of existance could have made such a pattern possible."

Note: The three jewish professionals who carried out the experiment did this same test in the book "Love & War." They published that the patterns they found in the torah could not be recreated in the book "Love & War" The Wikipedia article I gave reference to was to get you to ask questions, not the be the 100% all source for my reference.

Quote by ShamshielI also fail to understand how you came to the conclusion that the Bible is a paradox.

Well, the only this I can say is re-read my "whys" to prove it is a paradox. If you still don't understand, then help me by explaining the contradictions you have found in my statements. Thanks for your comments, and I encourage you to keep researching :)

"May the aquisition of wealth no longer be your driving force." - freshblueO2

"It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish." - Mother Teresa

Shamshiel

Shamshiel

Crawling Chaos

I didn't mean you had to have credentials or anything (I'm 17, do you really think I do?), I just thought you were assuming that all people with those credentials would come to your conclusion.

I don't assume you're talking nonsense; I've seen numerous programs and read a number of articles on the Bible code and I am not convinced.

This article is quite interesting:
http://www.talkreason.org/articles/Codpaper1.cfm

I do not doubt the complexity of these patterns; I'm just saying that such patterns really aren't that uncommon. Humans are really good at finding patterns where there are none, and computers are even better. Besides, the Torah is a really big book, and such patterns are almost expected. Read the article, it is quite interesting.

The paradox thing relies on the fact that you believe in the Bible code and that it was created by a higher intelligence (Yahweh), which I don't.

joemighty16

joemighty16

Hope is an optimist

Mostly @ freshBlueO2

Woah! First time I heard that Pi is a patern. Most mathematicians, scientists and (especially) engineers will have to disagree with you there - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi.

Anyway, I kinda followed those Jewish proffesors argument when I was in high school - the Bible Code and Peace and War. Currently I'm holding a Universty Degree in Cultures and Languages (for those who need references). Among my languages I studied Biblical Hebrew for 3 years.

Since then I can add another form of criticism for the entire Bible Code theory: The versitality of the Hebrew language and script.

Hebrew (at least Biblical) has only 22 letters and no vowels (although 4 consonants may be converted to vowels). Most of its words (more than 70%) consists of 3-letter words. Written vowels were invented in the Middle Ages. We have seen numerous cases in class that if you change the given vowels (added by the Masorete Rabbi's during the Middle Ages - basically its dots underneath the consonants wich tells you how it should be pronunced as a syllable - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretic_notes) of a word you can completely change the meaning of the word, the sentence and the message. Also remember that the texts were transcribed by hand - there are more typo's than you would wish to admit. Also the most complete manuscript we have is only a thousand years old (Codex Leningradensis c. 1008 AD). Some lesser manuscripts differ completely from each other. Also the earlier translations differ sometimes imensly.

The whole point is that our current manuscripts are not the original manuscritps. Not in the least. Enormous funds and effort are spend to get as close to the original as possible, but thats all it is. Attempts to the original, but still not the original. Take that and the versitality of the Hebrew script and you can make any prophecy you want!

Anyway, "our" Old Testament's Hebrew is a bit different from the Jewish Torah. The most widely accepted Hebrew Bible is the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia. Go see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblia_Hebraica_Stuttgartensia. Note the Masoretic notes, as well as the references to other translations (now all dead languages - as well as Biblical Hebrew).

As for Moses. I wouldn't take the intro of the King James (translated 1611 while they were still burning and drowning grannies on the pretext that they were witches) as an academically accepted source on happenings 2000 years prior.

How could Moses write such a detailed 3rd person account of his own death in Deteronomy? How come the grammar, vocabulary and content of Gen 1 and 2 (to take an easy example) differ so much if its written by the same person? Why did he make a copy of Exodus and Leviticus in Deuteronomy (same material - different style)? See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis.

The origins of these books (not to mention the rest of the Old Testament) are a lot more complicated than it seems. It all comes down to textual critcism - the study of the textual evidence - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual_criticism. I recommend you first have a talk with a proffesor in Biblical Hebrew before you cite King James as a source. Read the articles and accept that academic emperical studies carry more weight than preferance belief (i.e. believing what you want).

Life is a game played by gods who are bored and who fight over the rules.

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