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who thinks that nations/countries should exist?

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Minitokyo » Main Fora » City Hall  who thinks that nations/countries should exist?

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i really think that nationality is just about the worse thing that humans have ever invented. it should never have existed IMO, and seperating the world into countries is pointless.
comments anyone?

Its not something that's invented, its just something that happened. To use an analogy: When water flows, it subsequently makes a puddle. As the puddle grows bigger, it may get in touch wit another puddle and the 2 puddles join. It is here though where the analogy stops. Since that puddle may or may not merge.

People tend to gather with other people with whom they can associate and share an identity. These people do not want to loose there own identity by merging with other groups of people.

When you go to a meeting, social or otherwise, you inadvertably move towards the people you know best, and some kind of cliqué is formed. Nationalities are basically bigger forms of those cliques.

One day though, the world, which is already being globalized, may become one formal nation. But personally I think thats unlikely - as every nation has provinces, and as every province has regions, etc., so the world my already by typecast as one human nation. For the problam is, to be a nation, you have to discern yourselve from others. You can't be a stand alone nation.

Too many differences. Tribalism, nationalism, religion, political beliefs, race. Just look at the conflicts going on in places like Eastern Europe, Africa, and the Middle East.

If you try to force a global government on the world, you'll only start a whole lot of rebellions and civil wars.

well, it does keep ethnic groups from the melting pot. If their were no boundies than I'm sure some cultures and traditions would disappear/blend into something completely different.

Quote by joemighty16Its not something that's invented, its just something that happened. To use an analogy: When water flows, it subsequently makes a puddle. As the puddle grows bigger, it may get in touch wit another puddle and the 2 puddles join. It is here though where the analogy stops. Since that puddle may or may not merge.

People tend to gather with other people with whom they can associate and share an identity. These people do not want to loose there own identity by merging with other groups of people.

When you go to a meeting, social or otherwise, you inadvertably move towards the people you know best, and some kind of cliqu����¯�Ã(...) is formed. Nationalities are basically bigger forms of those cliques.

One day though, the world, which is already being globalized, may become one formal nation. But personally I think thats unlikely - as every nation has provinces, and as every province has regions, etc., so the world my already by typecast as one human nation. For the problam is, to be a nation, you have to discern yourselve from others. You can't be a stand alone nation.

Yea, I agree that it's human nature to form groups and stuff, but groups of friends are formed because we like each other's company, while nations are formed due to differences between our ancestors or the people in charge. It's like my father hate yours and thats why I hate you, but without our fathers' feelings for each other maybe we could have been the best of friends.

merged: 11-13-2005 ~ 02:08pm

Quote by RanmaSToo many differences. Tribalism, nationalism, religion, political beliefs, race. Just look at the conflicts going on in places like Eastern Europe, Africa, and the Middle East.

If you try to force a global government on the world, you'll only start a whole lot of rebellions and civil wars.

It may be worth it for the future generations though........ T_T T_T T_T

merged: 11-13-2005 ~ 02:16pm

Quote by jaszi5well, it does keep ethnic groups from the melting pot. If their were no boundies than I'm sure some cultures and traditions would disappear/blend into something completely different.

I don't think cultures and traditions should be kept the same. I mean cultures have been changed so differently through the past centuries, so why so we keep it the way it is now?

I personally think that cultures should be allowed to change and merge like it has always been. My ancestors' way of life does not have to be mine. We should all choose our cultures instead of accepting that we are born with it and that we would be losing our roots or whatever if we don't follow the traditions.

All cultures and traditions are man-made and so i don't see why they should not be changed.

You just should not forget taht this isn't a typical human issue.

Many mamals form groups/tribes to secure their own existence. Some of them even fight between groups... for territory, and power

...just like we do, so I would say countrys and wars are pretty natural in this world, even if they are wrong to our own moral standards.

Quote by jaszi5well, it does keep ethnic groups from the melting pot. If their were no boundies than I'm sure some cultures and traditions would disappear/blend into something completely different.

Let's put that theory to the test. Let's take three ethnic groups that traditionally hate each other, squash them into the same boundary that we ourselves make up, and see how they do.

Oh, wait. We've done that. Iraq.
Years ago, Iraq did not exist. Three ethnic groups, Sunni, Kurd, and Shiite, were put into the same boundary by the United Nations.

They've been murdering each other ever since. They don't venture out of their traditional regions very much, and so one man, a Sunni from the extreme minority, seized power. He started to murder those who disagreed with him, and tried very hard to wipe out both the Shiites and the Kurds.

Even now, under a "unified government" that has no official policy of murdering any of the three groups, the divides between them are still prevalent.

The fact of the matter is that you could erase all boundaries, and people would still behave in the same way. A Texan from Abeline or Midland would no more fit in with a Californian from San Francisco then than they do now, and that's within the same nation, never mind other nations.

Quote by bweb

Quote by jaszi5well, it does keep ethnic groups from the melting pot. If their were no boundies than I'm sure some cultures and traditions would disappear/blend into something completely different.

Let's put that theory to the test. Let's take three ethnic groups that traditionally hate each other, squash them into the same boundary that we ourselves make up, and see how they do.

Oh, wait. We've done that. Iraq.
Years ago, Iraq did not exist. Three ethnic groups, Sunni, Kurd, and Shiite, were put into the same boundary by the United Nations.

They've been murdering each other ever since. They don't venture out of their traditional regions very much, and so one man, a Sunni from the extreme minority, seized power. He started to murder those who disagreed with him, and tried very hard to wipe out both the Shiites and the Kurds.

Even now, under a "unified government" that has no official policy of murdering any of the three groups, the divides between them are still prevalent.

The fact of the matter is that you could erase all boundaries, and people would still behave in the same way. A Texan from Abeline or Midland would no more fit in with a Californian from San Francisco then than they do now, and that's within the same nation, never mind other nations.

so u're saying that with or without boundaries things will be the same..... then what the hell are boundaries still in place for?
by the way, a lot of countries are multi-racial n multi-cultured, and most of them are not having fights between each other every other week.

merged: 11-14-2005 ~ 12:35am

Quote by bindermichiYou just should not forget taht this isn't a typical human issue.

Many mamals form groups/tribes to secure their own existence. Some of them even fight between groups... for territory, and power

...just like we do, so I would say countrys and wars are pretty natural in this world, even if they are wrong to our own moral standards.

I don't think they are wrong to our own moral standards. It's just that there is no justification to their existance.
Other animals can do what they do but we don't have to follow right? Anyway, most animals form groups with their own species, not within their species.

Quote by rsocg
so u're saying that with or without boundaries things will be the same..... then what the hell are boundaries still in place for?
.

Think of it as a "I won't kill you zone." Basically the borders exist so that we don't kill each other. We enforce those borders for the same reason. Killing each other takes alot more time and energy than it does to just build a wall and maintain it.

Quote by rsocgmerged: 11-14-2005 ~ 12:35am

Quote by bindermichiYou just should not forget taht this isn't a typical human issue.

Many mamals form groups/tribes to secure their own existence. Some of them even fight between groups... for territory, and power

...just like we do, so I would say countrys and wars are pretty natural in this world, even if they are wrong to our own moral standards.

I don't think they are wrong to our own moral standards. It's just that there is no justification to their existance.
Other animals can do what they do but we don't have to follow right? Anyway, most animals form groups with their own species, not within their species.

The justification would be to protect each other from others who are different and who think are better, or those who want to colonize. It has been that way and it will be that way for as long as human beings exist. Yes, it is our human nature, that in itself is reason enough. Who will defend you against those who are different--either in appearance, beliefs, etc.--and think they deserve to extend their power beyond you. What might be consider immoral are the means by which power and territory is obtained. But it's definitely in our nature to form groups and guard our territory, just as animals do. Individuals within species form groups to defend against others within the same species but that belong to a different community.

I don't believe that countries should meddle in others' affairs. I believe that the UN should supervise the actions of nations with consent of those being overlooked but no one nation should call all the shots. The possibility of one world order is very unlikely but you can bet it will be attempted. Because people are so different from each other around the world, it will fail. Not all of us can get along. Just look at my sig, that should tell you something about my feelings towards those who I, and many, deem inferior because of their twisted ideas.

Quote by rsocgAnyway, most animals form groups with their own species, not within their species.

Depends on which animals you're talking about. Chimpanzees form their own communities. They attack any lone chimp from another community, beating and biting him to death. They wage war on other communities for territory and resources.

Insects like ants wage war on their own species and other insects.

Quote:
Think of it as a "I won't kill you zone." Basically the borders exist so that we don't kill each other. We enforce those borders for the same reason. Killing each other takes alot more time and energy than it does to just build a wall and maintain it.

yea right, if that's the case why aren't countries mono-cultured or mono-racial?
since the boundaries are in place at the moment, why do terrorists still exist? they should not since 'the borders exist so that we don't kill each other'.

merged: 11-14-2005 ~ 07:55pm

Quote:
The justification would be to protect each other from others who are different and who think are better, or those who want to colonize. It has been that way and it will be that way for as long as human beings exist. Yes, it is our human nature, that in itself is reason enough. Who will defend you against those who are different--either in appearance, beliefs, etc.--and think they deserve to extend their power beyond you. What might be consider immoral are the means by which power and territory is obtained. But it's definitely in our nature to form groups and guard our territory, just as animals do. Individuals within species form groups to defend against others within the same species but that belong to a different community.

I don't believe that countries should meddle in others' affairs. I believe that the UN should supervise the actions of nations with consent of those being overlooked but no one nation should call all the shots. The possibility of one world order is very unlikely but you can bet it will be attempted. Because people are so different from each other around the world, it will fail. Not all of us can get along. Just look at my sig, that should tell you something about my feelings towards those who I, and many, deem inferior because of their twisted ideas.

I'm not talking about ppl controlling each other. Having a one world order does not mean that some ppl have to be inferior. They can co-exist just like many are in some countries. people from different countries have negative views of each other because of these countries-thing seperating them.
Take Japan and China for example. there are a lot of hostility because people from these countries as different from each other. If there had been not boundaries seperating them, and a war had broken out, the aftermath would not have been like it is now. It would have been viewed as a riot and there would be no accusations between ppl.

btw, i can't see ur sig. but if i guess correctly, i'm deem inferior because of my 'twisted ideas' right?

merged: 11-14-2005 ~ 07:59pm

Quote:
Depends on which animals you're talking about. Chimpanzees form their own communities. They attack any lone chimp from another community, beating and biting him to death. They wage war on other communities for territory and resources.

Insects like ants wage war on their own species and other insects.

yea, ok i can't disagree with this point, but i can see that what is said above shows that animals, and so do humans, are aggressive towards each other because of differences between them. Humans have enough differences naturally, so the difference of nationality is really unnecessary.

The differences of nationality may seem "unnecessary" but that does nothing to change the fact that those differences exist. It is a a severe oversimplification to say an abstract concept like 'nationality' or 'country' was invented. I think it is closer to the truth to say that the idea of 'country' evolved over many thousands of years, starting with our biological ancestors and their primitive societies. But honestly, the origin of nationality is besides the point because you seem to categorize many of the world's problems as consequences of nationalistic differentiation. That's just false at best and dangerous at the worst. Even within the same country, you have divisions based on geography, religion, politics and income just to name a few. I live on the north-east coast of the U.S. but have family in the south and many of our views differ. I say this to demonstrate that taking away the difference of nationality doesn't mean people will suddenly be peaceful towards everyone. Are you familiar with the concept of urban gang-warfare? Many times the differences are strictly geographic where one gang is from one part of the city and the other gang is from another part of the same city. Sometimes the element of ethnic heritage plays a factor but just as often it doesn't.

The more I think about it, the more confused I am as to what you are actually asking. Even if there were a single world-wide government, people would still differentiate into various groups and we would still have periods of violent conflict due to things like political unrest, economic depressions, religious issues etc. Just because we have the concept of nationality and country doesn't mean that we won't fight amongst our own. The conflict in Ireland is a good example. The battle lines there are not drawn strictly along national lines. The element of religous difference is just as important. Your example of China and Japan I find to be flawed simply because if it were true, then the idea of civil war would only be an idea and not a reality.

Quote by elessar007The differences of nationality may seem "unnecessary" but that does nothing to change the fact that those differences exist. It is a a severe oversimplification to say an abstract concept like 'nationality' or 'country' was invented. I think it is closer to the truth to say that the idea of 'country' evolved over many thousands of years, starting with our biological ancestors and their primitive societies. But honestly, the origin of nationality is besides the point because you seem to categorize many of the world's problems as consequences of nationalistic differentiation. That's just false at best and dangerous at the worst. Even within the same country, you have divisions based on geography, religion, politics and income just to name a few. I live on the north-east coast of the U.S. but have family in the south and many of our views differ. I say this to demonstrate that taking away the difference of nationality doesn't mean people will suddenly be peaceful towards everyone. Are you familiar with the concept of urban gang-warfare? Many times the differences are strictly geographic where one gang is from one part of the city and the other gang is from another part of the same city. Sometimes the element of ethnic heritage plays a factor but just as often it doesn't.

The more I think about it, the more confused I am as to what you are actually asking. Even if there were a single world-wide government, people would still differentiate into various groups and we would still have periods of violent conflict due to things like political unrest, economic depressions, religious issues etc. Just because we have the concept of nationality and country doesn't mean that we won't fight amongst our own. The conflict in Ireland is a good example. The battle lines there are not drawn strictly along national lines. The element of religous difference is just as important. Your example of China and Japan I find to be flawed simply because if it were true, then the idea of civil war would only be an idea and not a reality.

for your imformation,i'm trying to say that there is no need for countries and boundaries to be present .

CORRECTION : there would be no war if Japan and China and all other countries are not different countries. Japan started the war because it needed resources to support its economy. If they were not seperated, then China or some other could have shipped what Japan needed over and there will be no cause to fight. btw, if i remember correctly, japan were short on resources because the US stopped selling them.

I agree that there are differences between ppl even in the same country. its just that since it is so then the boundaries are useless in 'keeping differences seperated and prevent blablablah '.

In your gang-warfare example, why isn't the city seperated with more boundaries to keep ppl to themselves? i would say because its useless, like those in place between countries.

I also wonder what support that gang-warfare thing gives to you in trying to say that boundaries between countries are necessary. your example only shows how useless those boundaries are.

Also,

Quote: Are you familiar with the concept of urban gang-warfare? Many times the differences are strictly geographic where one gang is from one part of the city and the other gang is from another part of the same city

Are you? You sound like you have witnessed them lots of times and these fights break out every few days.

I subscribe to every word elessar007 wrote adding only that in a simple way to say it (not that it is simple) its not about border lines or religion or whatever... Its about the people. All the destructive nature described above is a result of mankind s own dumb way of sorting things out... and it wont be uniting the world in a big nation that will make it any better.

Border lines are only a sign of mankind s nature...

Human have differences is something obvious. But to bring up those differences to separate us and put us into some "boxes" named nations are something I don't feel like it.

Nations will always excist as long as there are humans who have different and/or similar ideals and ways of life.

Quote by anisweeperI subscribe to every word elessar007 wrote adding only that in a simple way to say it (not that it is simple) its not about border lines or religion or whatever... Its about the people. All the destructive nature described above is a result of mankind s own dumb way of sorting things out... and it wont be uniting the world in a big nation that will make it any better.

Border lines are only a sign of mankind s nature...

er so you agree that national boundaries are useless?

merged: 11-14-2005 ~ 10:24pm

Quote by tsukasa888Human have differences is something obvious. But to bring up those differences to separate us and put us into some "boxes" named nations are something I don't feel like it.

at last ! someone who actually agrees with me ^_^' ^_^' ^_^'

merged: 11-14-2005 ~ 10:26pm

Quote by RingbellNations will always excist as long as there are humans who have different and/or similar ideals and ways of life.

Not really. We just need to know that the ideas of those in charge doesnt need to be ours. If we continue to then there will continue to be nations around. :\

Quote by rsocg

Not really. We just need to know that the ideas of those in charge doesnt need to be ours. If we continue to then there will continue to be nations around. :\

If we don't have leaders we will be a mindless rabble without a goal or cause. We are animals that live in herds, and herds need leaders otherwise it will scatter or accomplish nothing, or turn on itself. People always seek for guidance and leadership. Thus nations will be created. Just as animals have territories we have nations.

Quote by Ringbell

Quote by rsocg

Not really. We just need to know that the ideas of those in charge doesnt need to be ours. If we continue to then there will continue to be nations around. :\

If we don't have leaders we will be a mindless rabble without a goal or cause. We are animals that live in herds, and herds need leaders otherwise it will scatter or accomplish nothing, or turn on itself. People always seek for guidance and leadership. Thus nations will be created. Just as animals have territories we have nations.

why not thus we need a leader? a central world government's a leader.........

Quote by rsocgwhy not thus we need a leader? a central world government's a leader.........

thats impossible it will never happen so stop dreaming cause of the different nationalities not being racist or mean but its the truth do u think chinese can take white people as a leader or do u think white people can take a black as a leader even though u say ur not racist but thats only u u dont represent everyone

Quote by llxcharlenexll

Quote by rsocgwhy not thus we need a leader? a central world government's a leader.........

thats impossible it will never happen so stop dreaming cause of the different nationalities not being racist or mean but its the truth do u think chinese can take white people as a leader or do u think white people can take a black as a leader even though u say ur not racist but thats only u u dont represent everyone

why not? i don't mind.
are the US people are all whites? and the UK?
my country is multi-cultured with a chinese as prime-minister and an indian as president, and we're doing fine.
BTW, I do not represent everyone, but that applies to you too. YOU being racist doesn't mean everyone is. :hmpf: :hmpf: :hmpf:

i never said i was racist i dont mind cause its eventually not my problem but think about it if people werent racist how come USA has a rule that u must be a pure american in order to be the president some of the countries only accept their own nationalities

There is no such thing as a world with no countries or nations. Anyplace that has existed it has degenerated into tribal warlords on one scale, or dictators on another (frequently being repeatedly overthrown in their little banana republics).

Present an option that actually makes sense as an alternative and I am pretty sure you could get people to listen to it, but unless you succeed at that, I would advise you not to get upset when people sit there poking holes in the theory. Are nations a pain in the butt? At times, sure. But given the alternatives, I'll stick with it.

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