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Removal of Media Factory Inc. Works @ AnimeSuki.com

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Avlor

Avlor

Ditzy Kitsune

Kei-kun you sure are fiesty. /Av gives a wrinkled nose grin and winks...

Actually - I know enough Japanese to see some of the simple discrepcancies. And I know people fluent in it - who have also found the annoyances I talk about. I was just discussing this the other day with the guy who teaches at our Japanese Language Meetup.

I do know the subtitles are there on the original versions - seen them (have some). I still prefer fansubs.

Just mellow a bit. Snapping at people won't make 'em change thier minds.

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Quote by Kei-kun
Jeez, what are you thinking? You're saying that the blame should be put
on the fansub downloaders. Erm... please think straight. If there
wasn't any fansubbing group then there wouldn't be any fansub
downloader. You're blaming the effect rather than the cause. There is
no "chicken or the egg" puzzle here.
It's straight and simple: the fansubbing groups made the the fansub
downloaders.

Eh, this is sort of a moot topic. It's like gunmakers. Guns can have positive effects: they're used by law enforcement officials to reduce crime. However, they can also have many bad effects. Who do you blame? The person who goes crazy and uses a gun to kill someone? Or the gun companies? Which is a better solution? Closing down all teh gun factories? Or making tighter laws to control distribution of these weapons? There's no single right answer.

Fansubs originally came into being, so that anime series which would never get released in the states would see the light of day. This was a great thing. Japanese studios could have been making money selling these series in the states, except that there were too many obstacles: the costs of making a domestic release would be larger than their profits. So, fansubs can be beneficial.

The reason anime studios left fansubbers alone in the old days, was because they posed no harm. What worries Japanese studios is the newer generation of on-line fansubbers/downloaders. You think you deserve free previews of every unlicensed anime series in existence? Give me a break. Used to, you had to pay for fansubs. Fansubbers lost money on all the equipment they had to buy to make fansubs. Fansub watchers lost money on the tape stock that fansubbers had to buy. Nowadays, tho, fansubbers only need a computer, and fansub downloaders balk at the idea of paying for anything. Plus, thanks to bittorrent, a fansub group can distribute hundrds of thousands of copies of a fansub, that doesn't degrade. If I were the Japanese studios, I'd be scared. The digital revolution has made fansubbing a thousand times more dangerous than it used to be. No matter how responsible the fansubbers try to be, at least a few fansub watchers are going to abuse the privilege they've been given... this is why we're going to continue to see fansub sites being threatened with legal action.

Also, I disagree with those people who say they'll stop buying anime if there are no fansubs. The fact is, you're outweighed by those who don't buy just because there are fansubs. I mean, if you subscribe to Newtype magazine, you'll know that the distributors do give out preview discs of their more popular series. But, downloading a fansub of an entire series is NOT a preview... that's just free-riding.

And if you're in a country where there's no licensed anime, my guess is that the anime studios are going to leave you alone. I doubt they're attacking spanish-subtitled fansubs, if they're not distributing there.

Finally, please don't support HK bootlegs :( that's just wrong. Most HK bootlegs are of series that are available domestically, anyway -_- But give your money to bootleggers, and all you're doing is helping mafia members buy guns, drugs, and run prostitution rings. In some cases, the results are even worse. There was an incident a while ago, where Chinese triads manufactured and sold bootleg baby food, and ended up killing thousands of babies. Is this the sort of people you want to support with your money?

Kei-kun

Kei-kun

Loving Mizuho

I suppose there are the ocassional adoptions in anime which change the Japan culture into the US culture. E.g. Japanese Yen into American Dollars.
But I'm certain that the US DVD releases do NOT add swear words to anime. Fansubs are just regular stranger anime fans who are from either Europe or America, only a few of them in their groups are Japanese people. Fansubbers are just regular teenagers to 24 year-olds who just subtitle anime for no profit. Most of them aren't Japanese anyway. From a lot of fansubs I've seen, there are lot of anime which are rated like 11+, which have swear words in them!
I am certain those anime rated 11+ aren't those violent and bloody genre anime, I'm talking stuff like Full Moon wo Sagashite here and others like Love Hina perhaps. I've seen these type of anime by fansubbers who put words like b*st*rd and sh*t in them.
I'm sure that these fansubbers do this to make the anime more enthusiastic and more funny for the viewer. They want to make the anime fit into our social views and how we use our language in general.

For other anime like Tenjou Tenge, it's rated 18+ so the swearing in there isn't unusual. But more often than not, for anime rated like 11+ or 13+, those fansubbers always have at least 3-10 swear words in them, and I have A LOT of us/uk anime DVDs which have no swearing at all, not even words like crap.

Also, like I said, these fansubbers are just regular fans aged maybe between 15-24 years old. For me I prefer my anime to translated and subtitled by professional Japanese translators who are Japanese. Over 95% of the anime translated for the US DVD releases are pure Japanese people. If you don't believe me, go check on AnimeNewsNetwork, take a look at the staff sections. I'm not saying that fansubbers do an awful and totally attempt in translating anime. It's just that I prefer a more formal translation rather than a teenager-type social type of intention.

Quote by AvlorActually - I know enough Japanese to see some of the simple discrepcancies. And I know people fluent in it - who have also found the annoyances I talk about.


I'd like to see you translate anime accurately, and tell me where exactly these "simple" discrepancies are located. I'd like for you give me at least 5 fansubbed anime titles rated around 13+ which doesn't have a single swear word inside.
I prefer to download and watch the illegal DVD rips (preferably dual audio) from the US DVD releases rather than download fansubs. If the anime isn't licensed yet, then I suppose I'll go for the adequate fansubbed release. And when it releases on DVD in America, I'll delete the fansubbed release.

I agree whole-heartedly with MFI's action. It's entirely appropriate. Sure, Animesuki only provide links. It's petty crime, in a way. They are facilitating anime piracy (and please don't take me for a holier-than-thou individual. I download tons of anime, most from the links animesuki provides, of which I end up purchasing very little. But more on than later in the post). If you start with the small fry, it makes it harder for the big fish to operate. Same as drugs and software.

Now, why I don't buy anime? I usually buy anime films and OVA's that I've watched, because it's the only way you truly get value for your purchase. Licensing companies are ripping us off big time when it comes to series with 13+/26+ episodes, both in the amount of episodes they put on each DVD and the number of extra features you recieve.

I firmly believe in buying manga that you've read and enjoyed online, because you get a fair trade-off. Anime is a huge cash-cow, and companies like ADV are milking it with little regard as to how they can help the average fan as well. We're not supporters or valued customers, we're wallets and - at the same time - the enemy.

I'm in same boat with Manxita. It's really hard to get your hands on proper anime here (besides pokemon and dbz..), occasionallly I do make some findings when some shop imports few discs from out there but since most shows are only on R1 dvd's it's impossible to even play them in Europe., not to mention the actual online shopping which seems quite hard w/o stuff like visa :(

Ay-chama

Ay-chama

lil grass shack

Quote by yieloonPpl in japan will download it and ignore the subtitle. Thus the sales of the dvd in japan will drop. Its is not about the North America market here since it is a japanese company.


not really, theres more to "anime" then just the shows at times. naruto, for instance has wallscrolls, games, ufo cathers, figures, calenders, manga, etc.
ppl in Japan arent the only ones to buy these types of things. also, ppl buy these things because its from their fav series afterall. theres a higher chance that you'll buy something from a series you KNOW then one you dont.

Quote by Kei-kunFansubbers are just regular teenagers to 24 year-olds who just subtitle anime for no profit. Most of them aren't Japanese anyway. From a lot of fansubs I've seen, there are lot of anime which are rated like 11+, which have swear words in them!
I am certain those anime rated 11+ aren't those violent and bloody genre anime, I'm talking stuff like Full Moon wo Sagashite here and others like Love Hina perhaps. I've seen these type of anime by fansubbers who put words like b*st*rd and sh*t in them.
I'm sure that these fansubbers do this to make the anime more enthusiastic and more funny for the viewer. They want to make the anime fit into our social views and how we use our language in general.
For other anime like Tenjou Tenge, it's rated 18+ so the swearing in there isn't unusual. But more often than not, for anime rated like 11+ or 13+, those fansubbers always have at least 3-10 swear words in them, and I have A LOT of us/uk anime DVDs which have no swearing at all, not even words like crap.
Also, like I said, these fansubbers are just regular fans aged maybe between 15-24 years old. For me I prefer my anime to translated and subtitled by professional Japanese translators who are Japanese. Over 95% of the anime translated for the US DVD releases are pure Japanese people. If you don't believe me, go check on AnimeNewsNetwork, take a look at the staff sections. I'm not saying that fansubbers do an awful and totally attempt in translating anime. It's just that I prefer a more formal translation rather than a teenager-type social type of intention.


i can understand what your saying. some shows, it might not fit (depending on the character and who uses it and how).
besides there are only so many ways to translate "yaro" and "kuso" into english. not to mention i have no idea of what a 11 year old kid who lives in japan and understands it would translate it into to begin with (im pretty sure i knew bastard and sh** when i was that age though).
what are the age stats in fansubs anyway? i figure more teens watch it.

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charaznableamurorei

charaznableamurorei

patron saint of doujinshi

Hello, minna! Nuriko, I support your move to remove the Animesuki links off MT, only for the simple & practical reason to avoid legal trouble. Shikatana ga nai. (did I get it right? ^_^) Though it is sad to be reminded that, as finiteyoda & Kei-kun and other others here skillfully pointed out, that fansubbing is technically illegal, and its future is already & always hanging in the balance.

This might sound a bit off-tangent the topic... but please forgive me and allow me to carry on a bit, onegai? But I see the greater enforcement of international copyright law as an area of great opportunity, a chance for the "little people" --- people who independently make and produce their own anime/manga/doujinshi, without licking the boots of big anime producers to gain entry into the consumerist market.

On a more positive and alternative outlook, I would gladly welcome the harsher enforcement of WTO copyright rules if it will beckon the rise of an "indy or underground (UG) renaissance" of anime/manga artists/writers who do not and will bow down to compromise their own work by submitting to or satisfying the "popular", "consumerist", "market-friendly" taste. It might just be me, but I sadly notice that anime stories/art of late are beginning to show patterns of complacency, repetition and "cash cow tendencies" (e.g., the Gundam & .hack series, mainstream ecchi/hentai-flavored franchise, etc.) I somewhat feel that this is due to, ironically, the intense marketing of anime/manga in new and booming markets like the US and other parts of the world. I would openly welcome fresh, innovative, daring artists/writers who produce their own work, even if they do not get huge profits out of it.

i feel that the "indy/UG anime/manga/doujinshi movement" is slowly growing worldwide... and I think Minitokyo is part of that. MT has a whole fertile stockhouse full of promising artists/writers! Hmm, on another idea, the explosion of interest in anime/manga also somewhat reshapes the defintion of anime/manga in my opinion, since anime/manga has been conventionally defined as being solely Japanese-made; if stricter implementation of them international copyright laws ensues and if the indy/UG people make their moves, then anime/manga's definition will be altered from "solely-Japanese-made" to "Japanese-inspired"....

"You don't buy anime, anime producers stop making anime," Kei-kun has pointed out. Quite true, I agree. But may I add this? "You don't buy anime, anime producers stop making anime, someone else will make anime, you buy/trade from them." ^_^


(Again, I apologize if I had carried the discussion a bit too far. But after reading this seemingly-small incident with Animesuki, my brain just started churning out this kerazy ideas... thanks in advance for tolerating... ^_^)

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Sig crafted by Yune of the MTSign-AvCrew! Based on artwork by Keough! Vamonos, MT artistes!

DREAM

DREAM

Lord of Dreams

this could possibly set a strange precendent. obviously animesuki.com doesn't have an attorney in their employ or they are mentally deficient. im thinking the latter. it has always been [generally] understood that fansubs stop once an anime is licensed in the US. those titles are not and most are currently playing in japan.

so the big question is who going to step up next and pressure the fansunb sites.

luckily some groups are still fansubbing Gankutsuo. :phew:

jimmy2buc

jimmy2buc

Dragon Knight Nyo!

Quote by HugMePlzI agree whole-heartedly with MFI's action. It's entirely appropriate. Sure, Animesuki only provide links. It's petty crime, in a way. They are facilitating anime piracy (and please don't take me for a holier-than-thou individual. I download tons of anime, most from the links animesuki provides, of which I end up purchasing very little. But more on than later in the post). If you start with the small fry, it makes it harder for the big fish to operate. Same as drugs and software.
Now, why I don't buy anime? I usually buy anime films and OVA's that I've watched, because it's the only way you truly get value for your purchase. Licensing companies are ripping us off big time when it comes to series with 13+/26+ episodes, both in the amount of episodes they put on each DVD and the number of extra features you recieve.
I firmly believe in buying manga that you've read and enjoyed online, because you get a fair trade-off. Anime is a huge cash-cow, and companies like ADV are milking it with little regard as to how they can help the average fan as well. We're not supporters or valued customers, we're wallets and - at the same time - the enemy.

yeah, i know how u feel, remember how hard hard it is to get anime in certain countries.
fansubs to us r basicly a demo of what u can expext to get and if u like it then go buy it

This signature violates the signature guidelines, thus it has been removed.

Kei-kun

Kei-kun

Loving Mizuho

Quote by finiteyodaEh, this is sort of a moot topic. It's like gunmakers. Guns can have positive effects: they're used by law enforcement officials to reduce crime. However, they can also have many bad effects. Who do you blame? The person who goes crazy and uses a gun to kill someone? Or the gun companies? Which is a better solution? Closing down all the gun factories? Or making tighter laws to control distribution of these weapons? There's no single right answer.

Fansubs originally came into being, so that anime series which would never get released in the states would see the light of day. This was a great thing. Japanese studios could have been making money selling these series in the states, except that there were too many obstacles: the costs of making a domestic release would be larger than their profits. So, fansubs can be beneficial.

The reason anime studios left fansubbers alone in the old days, was because they posed no harm. What worries Japanese studios is the newer generation of on-line fansubbers/downloaders. You think you deserve free previews of every unlicensed anime series in existence? Give me a break. Used to, you had to pay for fansubs. Fansubbers lost money on all the equipment they had to buy to make fansubs. Fansub watchers lost money on the tape stock that fansubbers had to buy. Nowadays, tho, fansubbers only need a computer, and fansub downloaders balk at the idea of paying for anything. Plus, thanks to bittorrent, a fansub group can distribute hundrds of thousands of copies of a fansub, that doesn't degrade. If I were the Japanese studios, I'd be scared. The digital revolution has made fansubbing a thousand times more dangerous than it used to be. No matter how responsible the fansubbers try to be, at least a few fansub watchers are going to abuse the privilege they've been given... this is why we're going to continue to see fansub sites being threatened with legal action.

Also, I disagree with those people who say they'll stop buying anime if there are no fansubs. The fact is, you're outweighed by those who don't buy just because there are fansubs. I mean, if you subscribe to Newtype magazine, you'll know that the distributors do give out preview discs of their more popular series. But, downloading a fansub of an entire series is NOT a preview... that's just free-riding.

And if you're in a country where there's no licensed anime, my guess is that the anime studios are going to leave you alone. I doubt they're attacking spanish-subtitled fansubs, if they're not distributing there.


No I disagree, it's not like guns, that's on a different aspect. Guns is for law enforcement and defence, that's on a mankind security and offensive level. Fansubs are just damaging the economy.
I still see if you remove the fansubbing groups, that will stop (or for now, reduce the level of illegal distribution). If the fansubbing groups are ceased, then there would be no more new anime for them to download.

You say that fansubs are the source to bring unlicensed into the light of day. You only say this because you're comparing fansubs with the legitimate DVDs which are released later on. Yes you see gap in time because fansubs are released several weeks after the original airing in Japan. But if there were no fansubbing then there would be no discrimintation of time and wait.
This is apparent in other stuff like PCs. You don't see illegal distribution of PCs much. PC specifications in Japan and America way exceed those in Europe. The costs of the high-spec PCs in Japan and the US are lower than those in the UK and Europe etc.
You don't see peple whining about the delay in technology here. That's because there is no other source for the people to compare to, e.g. no US/Japanese high-spec PC for them to take away for free without wait.

Some may say that the fansubs are the source for the US companies to see which anime are worth licensing. That's rubbish. US and Japanese companies work jointly together. The US companies don't need to know from the fansubs of what is out there to license or not.
I'm sure finiteyoda you're actually supporting the fansubs even though you say there are some drawbacks in fansubs. You're defending it because you're too downloading them, and you don't want them to just stop fansubbing your favorite anime or future anime you want to see straight away.
I truly believe that if fansubbing groups were suddenly attacked with full-force making them stop immediately, you'll be really sad. And then you'll make the most of what there is available in the torrent networks, i.e. the old fansubs and DVD rips.

Surely, the people who fansub anime are enjoying it a lot. They're learning Japanese at the same time and also watching anime, as well as "helping" other anime fans in a illegal fashion.

Indeed, fansubs is just like someone in Japan recording an anime series on VHS from Japanese TV and bringing it to Europe for someone to watch. Yes that's fine. But since the foundation of the BitTorrent technology, this is made worldwide accessible. I.e. billions of people upload and download, exchange these anime series worldwide, so this is more than just someone bringing a VHS recording of an anime to their family/friend in another country. This is huge distribution! Thus is damaging the anime industry.

Do you know that old fansubs since 1998 or earlier are still being distributed via P2P and torrent network? I mean anime like Love Hina, Ranma 1/2 and Onegai Teacher etc. are all still being distributed worldwide for "free" (I'm sure you know this).
These anime series have all been licensed, and thus should be removed because the anime has been licensed, yes?
But.. no....!!! No no way... the licensed anime years ago are still being distributed everywhere. What do you call this? Is this feasible? Oh you may yes it is, because they act as a "preview". Yeah right, more like "free-riding" like you said.

So, the only way to stop the distribution of illegal anime and also licensed anime is to stop the fansubbing groups. They're the source. What else? Well we could stop the BitTorrent and P2P technology overall, that's fine by me. Otherwise, use a payment service for the download concept.
Yeah, of course, those people are still ripping illegal copies from the DVDs themselves. So might as well stop P2P program and BT itself. That way it'll stop the illegal distribution of all digital data, i.e. software, movies, games, music etc.

Statistics from AnimeNewsNetwork shows that from 3038 people, 82.5% of them download fansubs. Poll statistics.
Do you think more anime is bought than downloaded? I certainly think not. Right now, the only thing that is holding anime production in balance are true faithful anime fans who buy anime DVDs like me and my other friends like MadMover, TenchiFan, Kastelic4444 and cas2384.

Quote by finiteyodaFinally, please don't support HK bootlegs :( that's just wrong. Most HK bootlegs are of series that are available domestically, anyway But give your money to bootleggers, and all you're doing is helping mafia members buy guns, drugs, and run prostitution rings. In some cases, the results are even worse. There was an incident a while ago, where Chinese triads manufactured and sold bootleg baby food, and ended up killing thousands of babies. Is this the sort of people you want to support with your money?


No I don't support the bootleg industry.
Bootlegs from China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, Korea, Malaysia and also Japan are a real damage yes. Yes by all means, take down the bootlegs for sure. But at the same time take down the fansub groups as well as the vile bootleg firms.

Quote by charaznableamurorei"You don't buy anime, anime producers stop making anime," Kei-kun has pointed out. Quite true, I agree. But may I add this? "You don't buy anime, anime producers stop making anime, someone else will make anime, you buy/trade from them."


True, but those who take over after the real anime producers will still be known as anime makers. These new anime makers may be people like us in Minitokyo, some skilled anime/manga artists, but perhaps a lot lot worse compared to the current talented anime producers.

I'd say stop them all before anymore gets distributed. Media Factory Inc. are right. Other Japanese anime studios should follow.

Keiichi-K1

Belldandy, my goddess

I think MFI's actions are justified but only with regards to the licensed anime. Don't get me wrong, im a full supporter of legitimate DVDs, i even re-bought the Love Hina collection when i found out my first copy was a bootleg!
If fansubs are distributing copies of licensed anime then that is truly hurting the anime economy. But with the yet unlicensed anime i notice a bit of a hypocrisy, im no law expert but i think fansubbing a series currently airing in Japan is no different to you taking a vcr and taping the series and bringing it back with you. What's the problem with that? Plus there are series in the states that are available on DVD, like Cowboy Bebop, but the series can be viewed on normal TV cable channels.
MFI's actions will no doubt upset a lot of anime fans but lets be truthful about this, its the right thing to do. Myself im not that much affected since practically all of my anime collection are licensed DVDs except for a few unlicensed downloads of which i'll get DVDs when they're released anyway.
However MFI's aim is a bit off, why are they targeting fansubs (the people that appreciates their products) yet they let bootleggers do as they please? hopefully this will not drive people to buying bootlegs.
It's unfortunate that such things have come to pass but i hope this means that anime companies will release more anime more quickly with more affordable prices outside of Japan thus decreasing the demand for fansubs.

CyanideBlizzard

Retired Moderator

CyanideBlizzard

Margarita Time!

People have their own opinions, stop trying to make someone believe something you want them to. Illegal or not. I am seriously getting sick of this. I can understand but enough with the arguing, this is really starting to look like something I'm considering asking Nuriko to close. This isn't even on the topic anymore, its just about boogleg in general. Enough. Two people that have been posting here know I'm talking to them. I'm really getting tired of this. You both are trying to make the other believe your opinion, its not working so stop trying. I'm glad to see that you two find such points....but seriously.

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Ay-chama

Ay-chama

lil grass shack

for those that said fansubs are bad,
what about those series that arent brought over. (suki still has a pretty large list of titles to choose from)
how are ppl supposed to watch these? how are ppl supposed to KNOW about these. buy r2 dvds when they dont understand japanese? not to mention not being able to even play a r2 DVD. (yeah, im repeating myself i know)

MFI is right in doing this? other companies should follow?
so its alright to keep perfectly good titles in the dark. fansubs have been out for a while, yet some ppl still wonder what the hell "ashita no joe" or "kodomo no omocha" is.
kay that last one... bad choice... hopefully you get the point

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Kei-kun

Kei-kun

Loving Mizuho

Quote by CyanideBlizzard People have their own opinions, stop trying to make someone believe something you want them to. Illegal or not. I am seriously getting sick of this. I can understand but enough with the arguing, this is really starting to look like something I'm considering asking Nuriko to close. This isn't even on the topic anymore, its just about boogleg in general. Enough. Two people that have been posting here know I'm talking to them. I'm really getting tired of this. You both are trying to make the other believe your opinion, its not working so stop trying. I'm glad to see that you two find such points....but seriously.


Yeah, I know you're talking to me and finiteyoda. But what I'm wondering is why you even bother to attend to this thread when you're even not forced to look at it in the first place. Why is it bugging you? Do you have to go by this thread everytime you check on Minitokyo?
You're just sick of it, because you care about the case, it's affecting you, and you can't deal with the argument that's going on.
If you're sick of it then I see no point in you participating in this discussion or even visit this thread. Your post here contradicts itself.
Yeah, it may be a pain to you, but this is a good discussion. This isn't really an attempt to convert people. They can't just change and stop downloading fansubs and only buy DVDs.
This is to point out that it's a fact and that Media Factory Inc. is doing the right thing.

And also, this isn't really relevant but a good discussion is good for the mind. Helps stimulate thought and improves learning and processing of information (i.e. helps with your studies and grades).

Quote by Ay-chamafor those that said fansubs are bad,
what about those series that arent brought over. (suki still has a pretty large list of titles to choose from)
how are ppl supposed to watch these? how are ppl supposed to KNOW about these. buy r2 dvds when they dont understand japanese? not to mention not being able to even play a r2 DVD. (yeah, im repeating myself i know)
MFI is right in doing this? other companies should follow?
so its alright to keep perfectly good titles in the dark. fansubs have been out for a while, yet some ppl still wonder what the hell "ashita no joe" or "kodomo no omocha" is.
kay that last one... bad choice... hopefully you get the point


Well they don't have to know. Why would they have to know? They'll see it out soon when it comes on DVD. Why would they want to know straight away? If there weren't any fansubs around then people won't even complain about waiting or knowing that the anime exists at that moment. If they want to KNOW about the anime, then let them surf the website and look on anime news sites, e.g. AnimeNewsNetwork.
Well like you said, how are people supposed to KNOW about these anime. If they want to know just look around on the internet or buy/subscribe to anime magazines like NewType USA, etc. They don't have to watch it to KNOW it.
How are people supposed to watch the series that aren't yet brought over?
Simple. They don't.
I think the question you were asking there was: How are people supposed to watch the series straight away?
Huh, well. That question only exists because fansubs exists. That question co-exists with fansubs. If there were no fansubs then that question would not exist, because there would be no comparison made between the wait for legitimate releases and fanubs.

If they want to get foreign DVDs, then just buy a multi-region DVD player like I have. DVD players are cheap nowadays anyway.

Gomen nasai. I might be the most fiesty and annoying member in Minitokyo yet. But I think a lot and can really rant on about such interesting issues. I apologise to all who see as a pain.

Ay-chama

Ay-chama

lil grass shack

Quote by Kei-kun1
Well they don't have to know. Why would they have to know? They'll see it out soon when it comes on DVD.
2
Well like you said, how are people supposed to KNOW about these anime. If they want to know just look around on the internet or buy/subscribe to anime magazines like NewType USA, etc. They don't have to watch it to KNOW it.
3a
How are people supposed to watch the series that aren't yet brought over?
Simple. They don't.
3b
I think the question you were asking there was: How are people supposed to watch the series straight away?
3c
That question only exists because fansubs exists. That question co-exists with fansubs. If there were no fansubs then that question would not exist, because there would be no comparison made between the wait for legitimate releases and fanubs.
4
If they want to get foreign DVDs, then just buy a multi-region DVD player like I have. DVD players are cheap nowadays anyway.
5
Gomen nasai. I might be the most fiesty and annoying member in Minitokyo yet. But I think a lot and can really rant on about such interesting issues. I apologise to all who see as a pain.


1-your right, they'll find out when it comes to DVD. however there ALSO a "if". not ALL shows are picked up. among the ones that arent, there are some rather good series. which is why i mention suki's "list", since they only give links to unlicensed shows.

2-the prob, "old" shows dont really appear in these mags (or am i wrong? i dont read newtype, JP shounen jump on the other hand). marmalade boy for example. good series (well to some... but thats for another disscussion). now granted finding "old" shows are almost impossible. as far as torrents go, they just dont exist (not that they dont pop up every now and then). yea, sure theres the internet. but that only helps if u have a vague idea what your looking for and then that might also include running a site through a translator. would someone really go through this trouble if theres a chance that nothing they find will help? no they prolly wouldnt. this is all saying that fansubs didnt exist. this is also the only reason why i bother to mention ashita no joe and kodocha in my last post (yea i know, kodocha is licensed). keep in mind im not saying you HAVE to watch these old shows. the point is, if nobody knew about it, it prolly didnt exist. someone who MIGHT have liked the show wont get to see it.

3a-whats your fav fansub out now thats only airing in japan? would it have been better to not know of this at all? saying that fansubs didnt exist and it doesnt come to the US

3b-thats why raws exist. yea i do watch them. i wish more ppl i knew did. their still on AOs releases of PoT and the subs of Genshiken and School Rumble.

3c-raws. now the question is, if only raws existed would ppl still care about buying the legal DVDs? since 80% (too much? too little?) dont understand japanese, would they bother to look for raws. a mojority of my friends dont DL the raws, they wait for subs, no matter how long they take. so i say no. but would they buy the DVDs if there were no fansubs? prolly not (to my knowledge at least), they're happy with whats shown on CN). why? meybe because they dont want to waste money on a series they might not like (and it DOES happen). then again, they just might be cheap. who knows.

4-i got a friend that went through i think 5 players. i know someone else whos gone through 2 so far. region free isnt really advertised and even if it IS, it might not have other features that a person wants. do i have one? yea... sorta but its not a "dvd player". see its not so much about the cost, its more about finding one. i think jlist has one, not sure of the cost. yea prob solved... but, what if that $80 one on sale is?
see only someone who really wants it will go through the trouble. of the thousands of leechers on a new ep of naruto, how many of these would actually go out of their way to BUY a r2 DVD just to see this show?

5-nah, i like this kinda thing. dont find you a pain at all.

now to make myself clear,
its not the shows that are licensed i care about (in this thread at least). its about shows that arent in the US or isnt on the way over. <----
you said it yourself in "1", BUT *ahem* "i wish there was another season of gundam seed", "i wish they had a naruto anime" (both of which arent licensed and i really doubt naruto is on its way over anytime soon). ppl can watch these shows thanks to fansubs.

*PoT= Prince of Tennis*

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Kei-kun

Kei-kun

Loving Mizuho

Quote by Ay-chama3c-raws. now the question is, if only raws existed would ppl still care about buying the legal DVDs? since 80% (too much? too little?) dont understand japanese, would they bother to look for raws. a mojority of my friends dont DL the raws, they wait for subs, no matter how long they take. so i say no. but would they buy the DVDs if there were no fansubs? prolly not (to my knowledge at least), they're happy with whats shown on CN). why? meybe because they dont want to waste money on a series they might not like (and it DOES happen). then again, they just might be cheap. who knows.

4-i got a friend that went through i think 5 players. i know someone else whos gone through 2 so far. region free isnt really advertised and even if it IS, it might not have other features that a person wants. do i have one? yea... sorta but its not a "dvd player". see its not so much about the cost, its more about finding one. i think jlist has one, not sure of the cost. yea prob solved... but, what if that $80 one on sale is?
see only someone who really wants it will go through the trouble. of the thousands of leechers on a new ep of naruto, how many of these would actually go out of their way to BUY a r2 DVD just to see this show?


Why are you talking about Japanese R2 DVDs? I meant the US Region 1 or the UK Region 2 DVDs. Yeah sure, you were saying that IF only raw DVDs were released. But that isn't the case here. Anime sure is Japanese, and many Japanese people watch anime, but anime has spread worldwide, and the entire world is watching anime. That's why the english dub and english subtitled anime DVDs are released.
Yes I do know that many people don't download Japanese raw anime. Perhaps the only people who do download raw anime are those are fluent in Japanese. But consider this. What is the ratio of Japanese/Japanese fluent people to non-Japanese/non-Japanese fluent people?
Of course considering the world, Japanese/Japanese-fluent people are outnumbered by international non-Japanese people. This means many of them search for the english versions of the anime. Hence most of them download subs. Or shall we say, fansubs.

Yes I do know that some people simply watch anime on TV. That's fine by me. In fact I find that more healthy than those who download like crazy. At least those who watch anime on TV care to wait for anime to be aired on english or whatever language television. Yes, they might be cheap, but they at the same time may be doing the industry good, as their not download crazy getting every single anime released for download. Yes, they may be cheap, but people who download fansubs are even more cheap. The leechers can't wait, they have a unlimited hunger for fansubs as long as they exist.

Yes indeed, the only feasible backing for fansubs is that they show what isn't available or the old titles which aren't released e.g. Rose Of Versailles. That's the only good reason for fansubs.

Quote by Ay-chama3a-whats your fav fansub out now thats only airing in japan? would it have been better to not know of this at all? saying that fansubs didnt exist and it doesnt come to the US


Yeah sure. It would be nice to know something like that. Yeah if fansubs and the english release didn't exist, then I won't know about it. Well for me, I don't have to watch something to know about it. Thanks to the internet, everyone can just go to anime news sites and collect information from there. Let it be from official Japanese sites or from AnimeNewsNetwork. I usually visit AnimNewsNetwork for the details or AnimeNfo. If I find something interesting then I'll check it out, perhaps look into the official sites. And yes I'm one of the people who bother to translate the Japanese sites myself. For example, an anime like Air, which is airing in Japan in January 2005. I'm already exciting about it from what I got from AnimeNews, AnimeNfo and the official sites. I didn't need any fansub or english release to know about the anime.
I see that people go TOO far saying that they use fansubs as previews. They're all cheapskates if you ask me. One typical saying by one who uses fansubs as previews:
"Fansubs rule. Without the fansubs I wouldn't be able to see what the anime is like, and thus I wouldn't know whether it's good or not to purchase it when it's released on DVD. Fansub are the source of previewing, you can't tell whether an anime is good or not just by watching its trailer or looking at pictures. You've gotta watch the whole anime yourself and evaluate it if it's worth the purchase."
For me, yea right... I highly doubt that they do really download, watch all of it once or twice and then delete it. How many people do that? Next to none I assume. And you know it yourself. They use that lame preview excuse to download it, watch it and then archive it on CD or DVD. Is that their concept of previewing. I don't think so.

Fansubs are seen as perfect copies of anime from Japan. The anime series aired in Japan are recording by those fansub groups, which the quality is highly sufficient for any viewer. I mean the Japanese broadcasters won't even air it if the quality is really bad and inadequate in the first place. The qualiity is excellent and is highly watchable. So fansubbers take this chance and sub the recorded anime and distributes it.
The downloaders take them, watch and then archive. They see them as high-quality copies of the anime. In fact it is safe to say that they are perfect qualities of the anime, disregarding the possible glitches in the sound or any anomalies encountered by computer faults. The leechers take this opportunity and archive it.
Certainly not a way to preview anime.

Surely there are a few good reasons for fansubs. I.e. they enable us to see the old shows, etc. But the main thing is that these fansub groups have caused a big stir in the anime economy. THEY have produced near-PERFECT copies of the anime and distributes them to the world. These people share and exchange these copies worldwide and yet licensed shows are still being shared secretly from the Japanese/US companies. This makes no need for the leechers to buy anime, they have the perfect thing for themselves, why buy when you've already got it?
This sharing goes on (and has been going for many many years now) even though the fansubbed anime are already licensed long ago. Isn't this seen as illegal in the long-run?

Final comment. Fansubs do have 1 or 2 benefits (mainly for those who have no money and/or are young people like age 10-16). But the MAIN point is that fansubs are promote illegal actions and AnimSuki is doing just that, even if it's only a few links, AnimeSuki IS promoting piracy.

I'm not sure if cy is referring to me or not, but 90% of my comments were about fansubbing, not bootlegs... it's only tangentially relevant b/c someone brought that up as a possible solution to not having fansubs.

I'm not really addressing anyone in particular, and I don't care if people believe my opinion or not. All I've been saying, really, is that the law is what it is, and it doesn't matter if fansubbing is "right" or "wrong"... there's no loophole in copyright law for fansubs, and a lot of anime fans seem to think there is. I just wanted to let people know, that it isn't the case, and if Japanese studios want to prosecute American fansub sites, the law is going to side with the studios in most of these cases.

People can lament it all they want (haha, I think that's what most of this thread has been) but it won't change the law... Depending on how far Japanese studios want to take this, they could go as far as cripple the fansub community if they think it's worth it to them. At this point, it's kinda useless to debate whether such actions would be "right" or "wrong", for those of you who watch a lot of fansubs, I'd start downloading now while you still can -_-

Mm, well, I'm not going to comment any more on this thread, b/c I've already repeated what I've already been saying, but if people still don't believe me, I suggest getting a book on copyright law and reading about the various statutes, before suggesting to nuriko that she try fighting this.

Ay-chama

Ay-chama

lil grass shack

Quote by Kei-kunWhy are you talking about Japanese R2 DVDs? I meant the US Region 1 or the UK Region 2 DVDs. Yeah sure, you were saying that IF only raw DVDs were released. But that isn't the case here.


... :sweat:
thats not what im asking though. im asking IF there were NO fansubs, DO YOU think ppl go out to buy the DVDs.
im well aware there are, and that anime is worldwide (hell theres more european subbing groups now). BUT that has nothing to do with what im asking. its a hypothetical situation.

---------this whole thing is by itself. it has nothing to do with whats next------

the preview part, yeah that i can agree with you on. hell i use that. but answer me this, have you ever bought a series with only the back of the box and the internet for a source (which you said is another way ppl can find out about series)? no type of preview before hand. just went to the store, picked up something and bought it.
i have (i dint have ogms and mkvs back then). do you know what i found out? reading about something and watching the actual show are 2 different things. you might say, well thats why you could have asked someone about series on forums. something else i found out, my friend recommended i watch Azumanga when it was airing, i did. i liked it. another friend said to watch scryed. i did... i didnt like it. i gave it till the END of the series just so he cant say i didnt watch enough, i still didnt like it. the point? ppl will have different opinions about things, thats a given. not everybody will like the things you like and you wont always like the things others like. so unless you actually watch it you have no idea if its good or bad, if you'll like it or not.
oh yea, and there ARE DVDs i have that i wish i didnt buy.

as far as the law goes, i really dont care about that. ppl arent about to follow it when they can break it and save money. it hasnt stopped games, it hasnt stopped movies, it hasnt stopped music. ppl are bound to go against what a company asks, thats a given. but thats not what im posting about and i dont wanna retype it.

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Ray075-1-74

Too smart for kev

I'm curious to see what the mods/admins think about this issue, especially since the author of this thread was nuriko herself ^^

I don't want argue with the decision of Animesuki or with the decision of the Anime Studio. Here I want simply state some points as a fan.
1) I simply was enjoing myself by watching Genshiken and now it's gone.
2) Without fansubs I can't decide if an anime does worth his price or not.
3) Where I live the only animation works broadcasted by TV are only so oooooold children oriented works (you know: heidi, anne of green gables and so on).
4) After seeing the fansubbed version I watch as soon as possible the dubbed version. This because I want enjoy the full anime. When you read the subtitles you misses the point, I mean the graphical drawing work.
5) Watching fansub has bring me to buy some manga book (is fansub a form of inexpensive adv?)

[sorry for the homemade engrish]

Kei-kun

Kei-kun

Loving Mizuho

Quote by Ay-chamabut answer me this, have you ever bought a series with only the back of the box and the internet for a source (which you said is another way ppl can find out about series)? no type of preview before hand. just went to the store, picked up something and bought it.


I can safely say with a straight face to you... YES, I have bought many DVDs without having any fansub version prior purchase. Well to be honest and exact, I haven't an anime series which I have on DVD which I have a fansub of. None at all. None whatsoever.
I only started download anime in October 2004, before that I had a dial-up connection. And up to now, I have bought over us$800 worth of official legitimate anime DVDs, and none of I have a fansub version of.
People might think either that I'm pretty lucky or that I'm psychic (that I bought so many DVDs which I know that I would like).
From those us$800 worth of anime DVDs, I've no "preview" whatsoever before I purchased them. However I do have some which I did have a preview of and those are: Ghost In The Shell the Movie (1), Patlabor, Detonator Orgun, Perfect Blue, and Black Jack; all of which I watched on TV (all dubbed of course, and excellent). But they WERE NOT fansubs. Oh no no, you read that right, they were not fansubs, they were from TV.

Yes there are some exceptions. Some of the anime DVDs which I've bought may not the best that I love, e.g. Steel Angel Kurumi and Burn Up Excess. But I like those a lot, like 7.5/10. But most of those which aren't the best that I love a lot, I still like them.
Perhaps you people don't buy anime that way. Perhaps you think: "Wow, you've even bought those which you don't really adore?" Well, yes I have, but very little.
Well although some of my anime DVDs aren't those which I love big time, I still that I'm helping out the anime industry and have given some contribution and stay loyal to the anime producers and companies.
Therefore as I said many times before, I have no fansub version of any anime DVD I own. I've been living on instincts perhaps when buying DVDs. I buy those which seem of interest to me, and those that are my genre. Did I ever spend time downloading fansubs to get a "perfect preview" like the majority of anime fans (or shall I say anime leechers)? Nope, not me.
You might be thinking that I'm lying here. Well, I can swear to all gods and goddesses that I'm speaking the truth.

Quote by Ay-chamaas far as the law goes, i really dont care about that. ppl arent about to follow it when they can break it and save money. it hasnt stopped games, it hasnt stopped movies, it hasnt stopped music. ppl are bound to go against what a company asks, thats a given. but thats not what im posting about and i dont wanna retype it.


Yes, no one cares. No one gives a damn about the current piracy and illegal actions taken by many people around the world. In fact, it's pretty safe to say that most people just think: the time is now and act now. They'll take advantage of what's available. They think: if others are doing these illegal things, why should I stop or do them also?
Mostly think of the time now and screw the future. The fansubs are here now and let's take what there is available and scram. They don't really think of the effects in the long-run. This maybe selfish, but people are like this.
That's why they don't care about this distribution of software, movies and music.

ZGMF-X56S-Impulse

ZGMF-X56S-Impulse

I recieved word too
but its alrite cuz there so grup subbing them ^_^

the bad bad in is dat noone mite sub FMP Second raid= (

Ay-chama

Ay-chama

lil grass shack

Kei-
thank you (for answering one of those questions at least). you sounded angry, if my posts sound snippy, then sorry. just trying to have a calm discussion. although you misread the part about the law. im only saying that my posts has nothing to do with the effects and what not... im just not trying to justify where subs fit and what rules they dont break.

i suppose you havent bought a series that you thought you wasted money on. (i have... it really sucks to get those). im only saying that you cant hit the mark everytime, you get the "meh" and the "crap..." purchases (fansubs for one saved me alot of money here, i'd have a mahoro dvd coaster if not). dont get me wrong, im glad to see more anime in the US, beats the old days of the ADV video tapes with only eva, nadesico and some random title as previews. however, id rather not support an anime at all, then support a title i dont like (basically im going by: dont like it, then dont buy it). sure you might say, it can lead to them bringing better stuff over, but, it can also mean bringing over more rubbish. i cant just blindly follow anime like that, IMO im not being much of a "fan" that way. *no this isnt directed at you, or anyone else for that matter*

and yea, i know about the anime channels.

-------------------------

giovans brings up an interesting point that ive been trying to make though. read the "1".(sorry to make you a statistic?... example?... ^_^' ). as much as i'd like to see it in the US, it prolly wont be coming (then again they brought "otaku no video").

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Li-Mei

Li-Mei

Comatose

Nuuuu!!! Y0Y sad situation. of course i would just go and purchase anime off store shelves!!! IF I WERE rich!! most american dvd's are about between 12-15 bucks, i went to best buy the other day and the sales went from 18 to 20 bucks!!! regardless of the number of episodes in each dvd!!! Y-Y personally, i think that animesuki shouldn't be treated in this way, but i can also understand MFI's point of view on this one. stupid tarrifs. Y-Y fansubs really help me a lot though, with improving my already very poor japanese. XP i wish for the best in the future of anime downloading.

i have to admit though, i kind of expected this. T-T

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