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It's time for reflection

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hikarujm

hikarujm

FFVII's Fan

First of all I want all of you to understand that I'm not creating this thread to complain about anything but to invite MT members to think about the actions that were taken in the past days (the gallery cleaning) and their consequences.

When the mods were talking about the gallery cleaning I express my opinion in favor of it. The gallery really needed it. But now, with all the changes done, I'm asking myself... what is more important, image quality or people?

I'm sure that almost everyone have notice that the ambient of the site has been very different since the cleaning start. It was predictable. But, it has gone way beyond the mood changes I was expecting. Of course, you can't make every single member happy, there will always be people who just can't take the changes and feel like the mods are against them. That is normal and can happen at any community.

OK, so some changes in the mood of members are normal when facing this kind of measures. But there is a limit to what we can call normal and I think the overall mood change of MT members has gone beyond that limit. Now we have to think about the factors that made the members to feel unpleasant about the gallery cleaning.

I can think about some of this factors, and here they are:

The cleaning was announced too late and the announce didn't have enough coverage
I know there were threads announcing the policy changes, the walls and scans deletion. When the policy was created it was announced as news, so every member get a notification about it. Once again, when the policy and the FAQ changed, it was announce as news.
But what happen when they announce the walls and, later, the scans deletion. A mod create a thread about it giving a deadline for the deletion to start. I know I already said this and I understand it would “erase� the news about donation to the Asia Tsunami survivors from the main page and that the members should already know the policy so they know what is not allowed at MT but those were very important news for MT members that needed a wider way to be spread.
The thread was all right, the problem (IMO) was the time. Look, MT didn't have a policy before so most of the members didn't think that the images they post before the policy were going to be deleted because of it. Besides a one week notice is not enough to allow members whose images were violating the policy to change them.

It allow some members to upload scans that were at the gallery before and keep the credit
This point is related with the previous one. Lots of images were deleted because the member who upload them didn't provide the source of the image, not for bad quality. Since this scans were deleted, anyone who has the same image (maybe even downloaded here) were free to upload it.
I have heard that even a mod fall in this practice, uploading images (maybe not the same scan but the same illustration) that the mod has deleted from the gallery, I'm sorry but I find this morally wrong. When you're making something and are on an advantage position you have to make sure to keep your impartiality and, in this case, upload a scan that have just been deleted allow people to think about second intentions.

Some people felt targeted
There are some members who think that they were targeted for the deletion (I'm not telling they were, but they felt that way) first I didn't think that way, but after seeing that just after one member complain about the deletions his submissions were deleted more eagerly... well I can only think that the one who deleted that member image was trying to punish the member for express it's opinion.

For me those are the main reasons of the overall mood change, now it's time for making a reflection so this don't happen again in the future. In my opinion the problem is only one, sometimes mods act as if they hold the absolute knowledge (I guess I'll be scold for this but it have to be said) and don't take into account other members opinions and even warn the ones who express their opinions in a proper way just because their opinions don't go in the same direction as mods ones. All this while complaining about the members low participation. For me this is totally contradictory since this is a community and all members should be able to express their opinions while it's done in a proper and respectful way.

I'm not trying to satanize mods, I believe they do a wonderful job managing the site. It's just that they have to understand that a community is build by their members and not just by it's leaders. And that an opinion is valid while the one who hold it's defended with the right arguments no matter who propose it.

Btw, there are already options for people who want to have their works judged and are afraid to upload their works because them can be deleted.
Visit this group: http://groups.minitokyo.net/mtn00bclub/

sammo

Retired Moderator

sammo

Retired Moderator

Quote: The thread was all right, the problem (imo) was the time. Look, MT didn't have a policy before so most of the members didn't think that the images they post before the policy were going to be deleted because of it. Besides a one week notice is not enough to allow members whose images were violating the policy to change them.

it actually did... but people just didn't read it and some even said it was unclear (although i thought it was clear as daylight). that's why kel rewrote it. as for the cleaning process, it was announced a week before it was processed. cmon guys, i edited 550 gallery items on my gallery in that time. it can't be too hard to edit your own, because i know most people dont even have close to that number.

Quote: It allow some members to upload scans that were at the gallery before and keep the credit
This point is related with the previous one. Lots of images were deleted because the member who upload them didn't provide the source of the image, not for bad quality. Since this scans were deleted, anyone who has the same image (maybe even downloaded here) were free to upload it.
I have heard that even a mod fall in this practice, uploading images (maybe not the same scan but the same illustration) that the mod has deleted from the gallery, I'm sorry but I find this morally wrong. When you're making something and are on an advantage position you have to make sure to keep your impartiality and, in this case, upload a scan that have just been deleted allow people to think about second intentions.

that may be true minus the fact that you cannot say "o. i got this scan from mt." might i add the fact that it was that person's fault that he did not put it in the description in the first place (and that's ok, im sure that person didn't mean to. heck, i didn't either), but MT is a open playground, and it's first come first served. if something was deleted and reuploaded by someone else with proper crediting, i see no problems here.

i would like to know this mod that you speak of. we'll deal with him/her. i personally think that rumor is incorrect becaues i get my items deleted often. people just think we get biased against other mod's item, which is damn not true. (not for me, anyways). if i find out who they are, i will surely suggest that they be removed from the modship status.

but i really think that if such a situation occured, it was purely accidental. one mod could have deleted something, and someone else could've came and searched the gallery, found somethiing that was not uploadaed, and have uploaded it. pure coincidence, to which any member could have done.

Quote: Some people felt targeted
There are some members who think that they were targeted for the deletion (I'm not telling they were, but they felt that way) first I didn't think that way, but after seeing that just after one member complain about the deletions his submissions were deleted more eagerly... well I can only think that the one who deleted that member image was trying to punish the member for express it's opinion.

For me those are the main reasons of the overall mood change, now it's time for making a reflection so this don't happen again in the future. In my opinion the problem is only one, sometimes mods act as if they hold the absolute knowledge (I guess I'll be scold for this but it have to be said) and don't take into account other members opinions and even warn the ones who express their opinions in a proper way just because their opinions don't go in the same direction as mods ones. All this while complaining about the members low participation. For me this is totally contradictory since this is a community and all members should be able to express their opinions while it's done in a proper and respectful way.

i can see where your coming from, and i wish people would believe us when we tell them, no, we're not targeting you (unless your gallery is infested with low quality, duplicate, rips, and of likes). but the thing is, it should be clear that they are not targeted when they look at the suggestion + complaint forum to see so many other people complaining about deletion.

its not that we act as if we hold absolute force (although we do -_- it's the truth) but sometimes, the same thing gets asked over and over, when it could've easily been answered if that person had taken the time to read.


although i myself do not agree with wall deletion, but i really cannot understand how some people just can't seem to understand the policy. it really isn't that hard, and if everyone followed it, we'd all be happy. that's just the universal truth in this community. i know you're not trying to satanize us (although you are indirectly), but we just want people to follow the rules, and sometimes, it takes a drastic measure to finally get through some people.
========================

so what im really trying to say is:
1. if a scan was deleted in the cleaning process because of inadquete crediting, upload it again w/ proper description, and we'll both be winners
2. you shouldn't be afraid of uploading work that you think should be appreciated. the worst thing that could happen is that it gets deleted, where you can ask moderators why.
3. we delete things without any discrimination and aspire treat all with equality
4. read the policy. it really helps.
5. if you have questions, ask us.

im sorry that many of you feel hatred toward what we're doing, but if we waver in our decision, how can we ever expect to keep the community in order?

tiantito

tiantito

-[D]-

this is how we all could understand it and move on
thanx for this thread hikarujm
and also for the explanation sammo

Producto de exportacion Colombiano / Colombian exportation product
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blueotaku-sp

blueotaku-sp

Blue is on me!


ok! I see that you (sammo) have answered they way you feel and act but let me tell you that as my friend here states when a member complains about the deletion he's gallery start to come to ashes even though the scans are great quality, also as he said the deletion of scans and cleanning of the gallery was just one week before it started and in holiday season so there's no change for members that were on vacation adn were offline to check their gallery and cleared it by themselves, so when a LOT of members returned from holiday what do they find a great amount of their gallery deleted (maybe I'm overacting but think about it it was holiday season!!)
So they all can do it's make a thread to complain.

Also for no appearant reason there've been some non English speakers muted or restricted and when I or other asks why there's no response or not good enough!! In these cases this muted or restricted embers do not have a recent warning or no warnign at all!

And the other the behavior of the mods. is not always the best neither the apropiated, and about scans there're two mod.s that don not give proper credit and their gallery items remain and in one case it's the very same ilistration that were deleted!! :angry:

As I see it MT mod.s (not all!) are not very responsable and wih this amount of complains it seems something worng, and WE have read the Policy and FAQ.

Again, the mods were probabaly overworked with purging MT of below-par submissions. If that really is the case, then we should have more mods!

Aha. ^_^'

Seriously though, if what blueotaku just posted here is true, then there must be something really wrong with the cleaning crusade. Please, please look into this, beloved gallery directors.

sammo

Retired Moderator

sammo

Retired Moderator

i may be wrong when i assume this, but scan purging notice was put up around on january 8th, the period in which many people return to work, as winter vacation starts from mid december 20th to around january 5th to accomodate the celebration of christmas and new years. furthurmore, it will not take no more than 3 hours of your time to edit about 200 gallery item (as i have done so...plus 300 somewhat more). furthurmore, your average MT member doesn't even have that much submission. most range from 50-100, so i dont think it was unreasonable that we gave out a week to do so. in fact, i think it was an ample time to edit, even if per say, you came back on y our computer around january 12th or so.i think it's kind of unreasonable to say hey, we didn't have time. i think it's unreasonable to complain at all, because giving credits were in the policy ever since it was created (unfortuantely not enforced, but now it is corrected again).

once again, i must remind many of you that MT gets numerous complaints from other major scan sources on ripping of their scan. what are we suppose to do? continue being unfair to other sites in expense of keeping MT members happy, or to do what is right? if we're going to choose the right path (which we are), we really can't descriminate this scan and that; we have to delete everything that violates our policy.

blueotaku-sp, if you feel that your friend has been dealt with unfair judgement concerning his gallery, please have him pm me with the submission that was deleted for supposedly inefficient quality; i will be glad to clear it up (as i having been saying for numerous times that pming me is encouraged over complaints).

concerning the language problem, i will admit that yes, we are in need of multiple translation of the policy (which is being worked on. if you are fluent in a specific language, you are encouraged to volunteer on translating). but looking at the certain spectrum, although MT is an open community, it is a community specifically designed for english speaking members. the excuse "no puedo leer la policia" is not valid, because there are numerous free online translating sites available, such as freetranslations.com and babelfish.altavista.com. frankly, ive answered the language difficulties, so here it is:

Quote: while i understand why you would argue about this matter, there's a clear reason why it was removed (yes, it was allowed before).

according to the visitor statistics, rougly 75-80% of the visitors that minitokyo receives are from english speaking countries. assuming that some people are also bilingual, such as myself, we can easily deduct that up to 85-90% of visitors in MT can understand english with no problem at all, meaning up to 10% of the visitors cannot speak english.

this is all dandy and nice, but here's what i'm getting into.

the users that will primarily use language other than english in minitokyo will be that small portion of users, that 10%. with a ratio of 1:9, it seems to be almost unfair and selfish to other users that a foreign user can comment on their guestbook, participate in forum, and comment on gallery item with language other than english, but have no idea what they are talking about. furthurmore, if you deduct that those 10% of users are all from other countries, let it be spain, japan, china, iran, or what not, that 10% of communication range decreases even furthur, maybe even down to about 1-5%. this can mean that when a user receives a gallery item, he will have around 15% - 20% or more chance of receiving a comment where they will not understand, which is a ratio too great when the numbers are added up.

that's not the only point. minitokyo.net is an english community. there's no reason why any members should put up with language differences, because english is the unofficial language of the world. if a user has hard time communicating with others due to their inability to speak it, they should use free online translators such as babelfish.altavista.com.

if you think about it, what's the difference between spam and a line of sentence that can't be understood? both has no point to its readers and wish that it'd rather be something else. therefore, a sentence in different language is as good as a spam and we dont really need that here.

hope that answered your question. this was the decision made by the whole staff, and it will not be changed.


but if you think that some members of different nationality background are being penalized without any real substance, please let me know and i will contact all the moderators and find out why.

charaznableamurorei

charaznableamurorei

patron saint of doujinshi

Hey there all... ahh, finally, hikarujm-friend initiated this thread! I'd make a very very short comment by asking minna to read some discussion in the Order-of-Reason userpage...

http://groups.minitokyo.net/order-of-reason/

'Might be insightful (and besides, I am not one of those typists from GITS, ne...) ^_^

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minakomel

minakomel

not present at times

Quote by sammoi may be wrong when i assume this, but scan purging notice was put up around on january 8th, the period in which many people return to work, as winter vacation starts from mid december 20th to around january 5th to accomodate the celebration of christmas and new years. furthurmore, it will not take no more than 3 hours of your time to edit about 200 gallery item (as i have done so...plus 300 somewhat more).

dear sammo....i´m afraid that the intention was good and it was enough time to change all images that didn´t applied to the gallery.....ON US vacation TIME....
unfortunaly (uh...) january 5 is still vacation time for some parts of the world...at least here in latinamerica, vacations last at least until january 15 or 20 (in my case, january 23) and even there are people like in argentina or even here in colombia that don´t finish vacations until february...I sugest making a bigger notice next time or we'll be all in trouble because we were on vacations and didn´t noticed this...

I don´t want to fight ;_; buu

biriwilg

Retired Moderator

biriwilg

+indie mod+

I'd also like to ask which moderator's page is supposedly getting 'special treatment'. I took several days and credited my 400 scans, Sammo has of course, Nuriko's were credited to start with, and so are Keltosh's. I haven't checked for the others, but I assure you scans were not being deleted solely by user. I personally deleted several scans from Jinzhou and Osi. I repeat, no preferential treatment is being given. ^^

Alpha

Alpha

DreamMaster

First of all I consider this post one of the most importants here in forum...
Excellent Hikarujm...

Ok I see both points and I must to say thanks for this post, and boths explanations... this is the way to do the things... Congrats Hicarujm, I support all of you are saying...
Dear sammo, my dear sammo.

Let me tell you a little story that all peoples present that day knows...
I hope you understand my really bad english...

Days ago I notice that my scans was deleted, one by one dessapear...
well I post in shoutbox what is happend with my scans?...
Seconds later I saw in shoutbox Nuriko telling me your scans has not the propper credits...

Ok remember this was happened in real time...
Well I posted in shoutbox please I understand, let me a little to modify my text in the scans to put the propper credits...
She didnt ear me, it seems, and she continued deleting all my scan section only left me the worse scans with a few favorites and comments... ( When I say worse I reffer in artistics )...
Because you know verry well that I never post crap in gallery, allways I try to put the best resolution possible, and I work very hard in my walls...
but lets continue with the story...
I have some members that notice that and inmediatlly recived support by PM and guestbook because they were witness of this situation...
I know you are trying to do your work as good as possible, and I desaggred with peoples to insult to prove their points...
Then what I must suppose to think with this situation,... If you disagreed or protest, or you will be targeting by someone or worse case you will be banned...
Or someone is targeting sistematically to the same direction, allways...

I told her stop please and let me change the text, fine... I ask her please dont delete my scans, and she kikked my ass...
She was not capable to understand, with a few scans deleted and a proper explanation was enough...

--(And dont tell me the rule was explain before, date,year, etc..., according Keltosh PM he told me that allways was in MT rules...
Then this rule had to be applyed from the beginning, not now, dont you think so?...)--

continue:

She knows this story verry well...
Then I sent a PM to Keltosh with my explanation of the case and he allow me to re-subbmit all my gallery section with the propper credits in the scans...

Then you can visit my scan section Sammo and tell me if someone here has this kind of description ... go., see for yourself...in my recents 2 last scans...

I could change the text of my scans without doing me waste time, money, etc ...

Conclusion was necesary that Nuriko delete allmost everything in my gallery of scans...

No absolutelly not...

She can say were all crap, no she lies.
Was a problem with the quality, no also...

I dont put in doubt the honorability of mods and gallery director, no...
I dont want to fight anymore because I am really tired of this...
can be my walls are horrible, can be. I have no problem with the damn level...
I always say that is more a problem than a solution...
the scans are not my problem too, what really upset me is the situation ...

You mods and gallery directors can change your text in your scans when you wish...
If someone ask minutes to update his scans, no thanks, deleted...

Maybe this is an unusual case, I dont know...

I do walls for fun, I share scans carefully selected only to give others more characters to make walls...

May be a GD (I think was Jinzhou) were right when he ,with all his courtesy answered me... dont worrie, we dont need it your scans...or something like that... ( remember ).

The because you dont need it:

For that reazon I wont post any scan in MT, like Aquiles, Noctum, and many others...
This two scans I subbmited was the last ones, enough...

I only go to dedicate my time to make walls and nothing more...
This is what happened to me, maybe you right I am wrong, ok no more words is pointless...

This is my honestly oppinion, and this post if for that ...
i was rude no I wasnt, that is what really happened to me...
You can believe me or not... This is what happened.
I agree with a quality improvment and the stop the rippers here.
I agreed with all the rules of MT...
Just to remark my position...
You can visit my guestbook and you can say everything I am here to ear your points, good, bad, everything will be welcome...
Or do it here...

As you say biriwilg, several days to credits your scans I had no such an oportunity...

sorry for my bad english, again...

Thanks for listtenig...

Keltosh

Retired Moderator

Keltosh

Inquisitor on hiatus

I would also like to point out once again that these are not new rules, the scan credit rule has always been in the policy. If members do not read the policy it's not really our fault and there has been 2 news article, one thrad and multiple shoutbox posting. And besides, just my revision of policy and faq alone should have been enough for you guys to read all the rules and faq again and to comply.

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jasmine

Retired Moderator

jasmine

jazz mod

Hi guys ^^
First of all I wanted to say that I saw this coming just like with the walls deletion -_-; There are always people who complain about everything and mods cannot make everyone equally happy. But they are reasonable people what has just been proved over and over again by their long and exhausting answears to all peoples' complains.

Quote by blueotaku-sphe said the deletion of scans and cleanning of the gallery was just one week before it started and in holiday season so there's no change for members that were on vacation adn were offline to check their gallery and cleared it by themselves, so when a LOT of members returned from holiday what do they find a great amount of their gallery deleted (maybe I'm overacting but think about it it was holiday season!!)


gosh... you know this is really... I am lost for words. The annoucement was made long enough for everyone to read it and apply the rules. I for one part was during the examination at my uni (still have 2 weeks till holidays) and altough I was extremely busy (still am in that matter) I managed to find few minutes to browse through the forum and read important threads and not just leech from the gallery. Then I still managed to re-edit all my scans that lacked the credit, without annoying comments directed at mods. And you know what? I did not get a single scan deleted. Do you wonder why? Because I follow what the directors here say! And all those who complain should read the rules, FAQ and Policy because from the very begining it was there stated that we must properly credit all the scans that we upload. We all saw that coming and if not the fault lies on your part and not the mods. They gave you the notice, warnings and Keltosh was continually pointing it in the shoutbox and I suppose in irc as well (though as I do not come to irc I am not sure)

You call for "the time of reflection" that may be true but from your words it seems that those are the mods that should reflect about their presupposedly wrong actions and I on one hand think that those are members who should reflect on their actions. Majority of members here can only complain and whine but they do nothing to actually try and help the mods. Do you think that this is an easy task to run this site? Do you all really think that all the mods are some outragous blood-thirsty monsters??? Get a grip! and for once try to put yourselves in their position! Mods create the rules and ensure that everyone has to follow them. If they were making any exeptions would that make you all feel better? would that make them fair? NO!

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Danael

Danael

Ecchi Archangel

It is good to see that the issues going around in MT are being placed into a thread for many to read and put forth their opinion. Thanks to Hikarujm for starting it, Sammo and Biriwilg at keeping it going! I think there are many points floating around which in part are being treated as the same thing, and quite frankly they are not. So if you'll allow me I will give my opinions on what I consider point subjects:

1) Language problem

Quote by sammoconcerning the language problem, i will admit that yes, we are in need of multiple translation of the policy (which is being worked on. if you are fluent in a specific language, you are encouraged to volunteer on translating). but looking at the certain spectrum, although MT is an open community, it is a community specifically designed for english speaking members. the excuse "no puedo leer la policia" is not valid, because there are numerous free online translating sites available

Yes this is true, MT is a community designed around English speaking people. Problems are sure to ocurr when designing a site with a universal theme (such as japanese anime) and constricting it to the third or even fourth largest native language (first is chinese, second spanish, etc...). I've said to Keltosh, and I believe to have been throughly ignored by now, that there are working versions in other languages in different forums around MT. I can at least guarantee that there is a Spanish version in Hispanime. All you need to do now is to point towards it. Yes it will take some coding time out of a Mod or the Admin but it will be worth it. Of course Sammo, many should be at least sufficiently conscious of their limitations as to go and use translation pages such as Babelfish. But the truth is they don't for whatever reasons. How about if when muting a member or giving out a warning because of posting in another language, which by the way is usually Spanish or French, can the mods be patient enough to spend 15-20 sec more in adding "Read the MT policy, if you need a version in Spanish please visit Hispanime, if you need a version in Frech please visit xyz". Takes no more than 30 seconds more to add to the usual warning.

2) Muting-Warning-Banning
Apart from well know bannings that have happened in the past few weeks (everybody knows about them by now!) many of the Muting-Warning-Bannings have no apparent reason. At least no clear explanation is given. I'll take my most recent example:

Quote by Keltosh You get 2 warnings for this.

A nice telegram from Keltosh to Summum, that when pursued further by me (by language barrier issues), we finally got an answer that it was due to

Quote by KeltoshAs for summum, it's written in the faq. normally you get 2 warnings before banning unless you really screw up. Besides posting 2 pics of extremely explicit nude pics, he also posted in spanish everywhere (not allowed, already deleted most of them) and posted quite a lot of doubles without checking, though he could have since he put them in the right category. So the 2 warnings stand.

What do you think took longer: a) Type in the following You get 2 warnings for posting explicit images and posting in Spanish, please read the FAQ-Policy; or b) the Telegram and then having to spend time answering my 2 queries? It takes a whole lot of effort to do things twice or three times, but only a small amount when doing it right the first time. Personally I'm a very lazy person, that is why I usually do things once so I don't have to keep coming back! And considering the amount of work Mods/GD have on their hands the more efficient they become the less work they have to do. I suggest a little more effort into the muting-warning-banning messages as these could really make a difference between feeling policed and feeling instructed. I prefer being instructed, don't you?

3) Wall uploads and Scan uploads
I have divided the post into Wall and Scan because I think there are similar issues with very different backgrounds. I've personally seen the scan problem ilustrated. Scan deleted from a member, scan uploaded by a mod with full credits, same scan uploaded by member with full credits and better resolution... result: scan from member is again deleted. This is the only one I can attest to, but if it happens once, I personally never again believe in the impartiality of said person. Unfortunately the upmost perfection is needed from the leaders of a community and (apart from some recent political leaders) they should be accountable for their actions. Patience, trustworthiness, care and above all flexibility are needed. If what Alpha has posted is true, I think that the referenced Mod/GD should have been patient and flexible to let him have some minutes at redoing his scans. Being a leader is not an easy task, but once one is there it must be taken with full responsibility. Furthermore, considering sammo's quote

Quote by Sammoonce again, i must remind many of you that MT gets numerous complaints from other major scan sources on ripping of their scan. what are we suppose to do? continue being unfair to other sites in expense of keeping MT members happy, or to do what is right? if we're going to choose the right path (which we are), we really can't descriminate this scan and that; we have to delete everything that violates our policy.

The point is not that these sites "communicate" to MT that their scans were ripped, how on earth can they tell? I could've scanned the same image and forget to put credits. Therefore because "n" site has a scan it doesn't mean that I ripped it off from them. The point is not that other sites claim credits (at the end of the day do they have the proper credits?) but that we, as a community, appropriately credit the source of the image.

As for walls, I've suffered from deletion. And as many around the community, I would have appreciated a full work over by people such as Aquiles, Sammo or any other out there with many hours of art appreciation under their wing. It would've helped me more than to have a deletion and chii's message. Of course this means I have to put more work into my poor knowledge of image manipulation software... one day I'll be fluent enough to be able to put in pixels what I have in my head (Hey not all of us are knowledgeable enough to work with 60 plus layers!) But until then, and apart from reading tutorials, I would definitely appreciate a human to look at my work and give me pointers. That is the reason my work is now going to my friends for pointers and suggestions, before posting here and having a bunch of posts, some lame (Very nice wall, cool colors. That girl is sexy!) to some very elaborate. It is no surprise then that there are places within MT such as [url="http://groups.minitokyo.net/mtn00bclub/"]mtn00bclub[/url] exist. Here at least some form of human will try to make a sound judgment. Wasn't that the original intention of the MT wallpaper section, to improve one's technique even if being in diapers or a full grown person in matters of digital image manipulation?

Anyway, enough ranting for now. Lets see where this takes us.
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EDIT 1
Easy Jasmine, I think that the thread was started so that we ALL can reflect upon what is happening. Not only are mods to reflect but also elite members and members. This is a community and as such we have to be ready to give our opinion as well as receive an opinion. Not everyone out there is the same, not all of us have 100 Mbps connections, heck some don't even have a connection at home! Holidays to some, really do mean holidays, no school, no internet connection, etc... Good for you taht you were able to make time to revise your gallery! Just don't expect that just because you were up to your eyeballs in work and were still able to do it, the rest can also do it!

As for trying to help the mods:

Quote by jasmineYou call for "the time of reflection" that may be true but from your words it seems that those are the mods that should reflect about their presupposedly wrong actions and I on one hand think that those are members who should reflect on their actions. Majority of members here can only complain and whine but they do nothing to actually try and help the mods. Do you think that this is an easy task to run this site? Do you all really think that all the mods are some outragous blood-thirsty monsters??? Get a grip! and for once try to put yourselves in their position! Mods create the rules and ensure that everyone has to follow them. If they were making any exeptions would that make you all feel better? would that make them fair? NO!

Hard words I hear from you, this was a peacefull thread as of yet. I think most of us acknowledge that the work here is not easy. Getting a grip? Hmmm I think is not only a matter of helping but also wanting to listen don't you think? Of course rules are here for all to obey, and that means nobody is above the law... not even Sheqel.

Did you ever notice how in the Bible, whenever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?
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charaznableamurorei

charaznableamurorei

patron saint of doujinshi

Umm, 'seems here that my little post up there was ignored a little... but anyway, may I suggest something re: wallpaper deletion because of poor quality/effortlessness?

The "social problem" of MT members posting low-quality walls is met with a "technical solution" equals deletion of said walls. According to the MT policy & rules, it is OK. But it is not OK for the MT member, who gets her/his feelings hurt, gets discouraged from participating further in MT and, in the worst case scenario, leaves MT.

In the Order of Reason userpage, I mention that why not try applying "social solutions" to "social issues" like this one? Hikarujm and the others from Hispanime already mentioned the potential of groups like the MTNoobClub to help out people like the one I mentioned above.

May I ask the mods/admin if it is possible that whenever a wall gets deleted because of your judgment, may it be included also in the message an encouraging note like "If you are relatively new to wallpaper making, may we suggest checking out this group, etc, etc, in order to improve, etc. etc. like MTNoobClub?" (sorry I don't have the exact words for it).

Encouraging comments like this included in the "deletion post" may give comfort to the noob/low-skilled waller and may actually push her/him to check out the group/s and improve her/his skills. That way, the aspiring waller might just improve and she/he would continue to participate in MT, and feelings are assuaged. A "social solution" to a "social problem." ^^

Anyway, I hope the mods read and consider this proposal. Thank you. ^_^

Edit:
Oh, and jasmine, the Hispanime group is already engaged in helping out its membership by promoting on its own the MTNoobClub... wow, it's really so touching, if you ask me... An MT group promoting another MT group... so community-oriented!

The links and bridges are being built. And I agree with you jasmine fully, we can't depend on the mods/admin for everything. May I invite you to check out a proposal of mine in the Order of Reason page? (and pardon me for the looong read that you're going to encounter).

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Sig crafted by Yune of the MTSign-AvCrew! Based on artwork by Keough! Vamonos, MT artistes!

Nuriko

Retired Moderator

Nuriko

Hentai Slayer

Quote by KeltoshI would also like to point out once again that these are not new rules,
the scan credit rule has always been in the policy. If members do not
read the policy it's not really our fault and there has been 2 news
article, one thrad and multiple shoutbox posting. And besides, just my
revision of policy and faq alone should have been enough for you guys
to read all the rules and faq again and to comply.


I would also like to add that twice we had news artcles dealing with scan crediting and deletion, and I have mentioned my want to purge scans in the SB several times.

i think that people whine too much.

As for personal messages during deletion, we delete 200+ items a day. A long time ago, when I was first moderator, we used to have personalized deletion messages. It killed me, and then people would PM me arguing with me. Guess what kids, those days are gone.

i think it's time for a little bit of personal reflection for all people who get their walls deleted. If it was deleted, instead of asking "why" try to get feedback other ways, like wall improvement or n00b groups. Or, you can always submit a Support Inquiry and an available mod will get back to you as soon as they can (it's like our answering machine).

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Congrats to Crash-kun :: sarak :: Evanrued for winning the Nuriko Prize!

ilovebaiken

ilovebaiken

Infernal Hell Spawn

This topic seems very important to all the MT members here. Although i am not an artist and joined MT after what is being discussed, i would just like to take the time to express my gratitude for the mods who are explaining the situation and my sorrow foe those who feel their scans have been purposefully deleted.I very well understand what both parties are experiencing and will be here if anyone would like to talk about anything.

"The Lord of Darkness must fall
Fall with my steel though his heart
I shall banish his night
You can run but you can never hide
I'll find you where ever you are
By my sword you will die"

-Dragonland "Holy War"


minimouzo

minimouzo

Papaya

i want to bring my opinion in this thread too. I hope i won't be annoying ; it will be short.

About scans crediting : i support the action at 100% and as nuriko said in an another thread it is a measure in a step of a more correct mt. I agree with her totally and i again want to refer the ©[loginname] problem. I hope it is at least discussed.


one thing bothers me ; yes you are browsing your 8012+ scans and yes you are crediting them. What i think weird is that nearly all ".........................................." or ":D waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" comments become "found on 4chan". I honestly hope 4chan won't become the excuse of everybody. If it is so you could be more creative. I target nobody but i notice this nearly all times.
i spent a lot of times to help providing books name or more complete source ; for example irc channel to credit (it would for sure encourage them to see they have some advertisement) ; i think it is a good idea in an option of more detailed and correct scans.

Quote by sammo2. you shouldn't be afraid of uploading work that you think should be appreciated. the worst thing that could happen is that it gets deleted, where you can ask moderators why.

i should add to read the rules before because this is what i did the first day here (submitting something i found nice) and it earned me a warning ^_^

that's all i had to say ; by by all

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Support section

blueotaku-sp

blueotaku-sp

Blue is on me!

There're some gropus that encourage that the member read the FAQ and Policy and even a translated version of them!

Quote by Nuriko

Quote by KeltoshI would also like to point out once again that these are
not new rules,
the scan credit rule has always been in the policy. If members do not
read the policy it's not really our fault and there has been 2 news
article, one thrad and multiple shoutbox posting. And besides, just my
revision of policy and faq alone should have been enough for you guys
to read all the rules and faq again and to comply.


I would also like to add that twice we had news artcles dealing
with scan crediting and deletion, and I have mentioned my want to purge
scans in the SB several times. i think that people whine too much.
As for personal messages during deletion, we delete 200+ items a day. A
long time ago, when I was first moderator, we used to have personalized
deletion messages. It killed me, and then people would PM me arguing
with me. Guess what kids, those days are gone. i think it's time for a
little bit of personal reflection for all people who get their walls
deleted. If it was deleted, instead of asking "why" try to get feedback
other ways, like wall improvement or n00b groups. Or, you can always
submit a Support Inquiry and an available mod will get back to you as
soon as they can (it's like our answering machine).


Maybe it's right what you say but, let me tell you that it would be a better form for the warnings, also what can you tell me when there're members muted-baned with only as state by Danael a telegram that indicates a double fault and don't say what was the mistake!

And about the Report Inquiry, what if you cannot find an answer, 'cause the mod. that answers it don't know a thing about that specific situation that you're asking for, or at least that's what have been answered to me a couple of times when asking about.

And everyone here should try to take it calm and do not agresivly or with a mocking actitude!

charaznableamurorei

charaznableamurorei

patron saint of doujinshi

Quote by Nuriko
I would also like to add that twice we had news artcles dealing
with scan crediting and deletion, and I have mentioned my want to purge
scans in the SB several times. i think that people whine too much.
As for personal messages during deletion, we delete 200+ items a day. A
long time ago, when I was first moderator, we used to have personalized
deletion messages. It killed me, and then people would PM me arguing
with me. Guess what kids, those days are gone.


Thank you for sharing your arduous experience, Nuriko. Umm, what I meant are not personalized deletion messages. Is it possible to append helpful tips like "Get tutorials" or "Go to noob groups" to the BotChii messages? Probably that is what blueotaku is saying: can the form of the automated deletion messages be at least re-worded?

If it's not possible or if it's too hard, then it's OK, too. I guess that groups like the Hispanime group and others have to rely more on their own efforts to help out. To Hikarujm and blueotaku, I think that you/we should start those MT groups collaborations, ne? Hmm, I already mentioned on possible collab with Chaos Cross; maybe you could talk and do something for collab. action?

Anyway, that's one of the points I mentioned in the proposal I made in Order-of-Reason: that everyone in MT should start veering away from being too dependent on the mods for help (since MT is sooo big and so diverse) and instead find ways on their own for help.

"Devolution of responsibilities." The MT groups like Hispanime, MTNoobsClub and Chaos Cross are starting points. Thank you for supporting them groups. But probably what blueotaku and hikarujm want is a more supportive attitude from the mods? A pat on the back or encouragement? "Job well done?" ^_^ No, if you feel it's too much, then it's OK, too. Anyway, thanks in advance, mods and minna, for listening. Everyone has something to reflect on, really, from this thread. ^_^

Edit: (re: post below)
OK, Keltosh! Thanks for the response.

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Sig crafted by Yune of the MTSign-AvCrew! Based on artwork by Keough! Vamonos, MT artistes!

Keltosh

Retired Moderator

Keltosh

Inquisitor on hiatus

No the deletion messages will not point to individual groups. But the deletion for quality points to the art and design lounge. I will soon write a comprehensive thread in there.

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I am now on hiatus from moderating due to my thesis.
One of my favorite game ever: Mordor: The Depths Of Dejenol Community
The beautiful signature is from Biriwilg

kimera

kimera

hay que vivir de kimeras

sadly I have seen that the TM community has begun to disintegrate, I am member recently of her and have seen like by a small group of people, TM has become a place of dispute, I have seen one commentaries and another part, some is owners of the power and for that reason they think that they can take actions without measuring its consequences, but a community this formed by his members not for you leaders, and when the members are mistreated sometimes justly and sometimes without justificationand these tend to disintegrate it, and that is exactly what this passing here, or several members have decided not to participate in some activities of this community, others stay to the espectativa without knowledge that course to take, others we are disappointed when seeing as by a handling of few this this can disappear as we know it, I say it but I believe that it is what we thought many, we are tired of preventive wars, we are tired from which actions are taken that according to some look for to improve or to change our way of life without consulting to us, are a community and deserve that it listens to us and that is not taken into account at the time of deciding.
thanks to listen to, and thanks to respect my point of view

La muerte es una quimera: porque mientras yo existo, no existe la muerte; y cuando existe la muerte, ya no existo yo.
"Epicuro de Samos"

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Un orgulloso miembro de [Hispanime]you speak spanish you can join to us
Un orgulloso miembro de [ecchi club]you enjoy ecchi you can join to us

hikarujm

hikarujm

FFVII's Fan

Sorry for taking so long to answer. I haven't been able to access Internet for more than half an hour this week.

About Sammo's post:
Ok, so it takes you a week to change 550 submissions, but not all the members have a broadband connection (I don't) and a fast, reliable PC to do that. I still think a week is too little time to change all the submissions because most of the members access the site on weekends and that let them with only a couple of hours before the deletion to start if they hadn't access MT for a week or so. Besides as Minakomel says the holidays period is different from country to country. This is a matter of perception though.
About the mod issue, I don't want to give names because I don't want to start a clash or something, thats why I try to hide even her/his genre. If you and biriwilg really think it's necessary then PM and we can talk about it privately. But I don't want to do it since the damage is already done and it can't be fixed, besides I'm almost sure she/he has already read this so I think it's enough punish, I hope the mod will make a little reflection about her/his acts and that is the reason of this thread. I don't want to fight or to start a war because there will only be losers if that happen, it's just that I fell that some issues have to be discussed before a conflict starts.
As I said, I did think that the targeting was just paranoia from some members, but if someone I trust tell me that he only have a few images erased and then when he complained his images started to be batch deleted, and that he has seen this has happen to other members... well, don't tell this isn't a little suspicious.
The questions asked over and over, maybe it can be solve if you create a pin thread with a tittle like 'Read this before posting here' (with capital letters or something) at the 'Suggestion and complains' thread. At this thread you can put the links to the FAQ and the policy, believe me I have found members asking where the rules are, so maybe this simple thread can save you a lot of work. With this thread you might even find more questions to add to the FAQ.

Quote by sammo1. If a scan was deleted in the cleaning process because of inadquete crediting, upload it again w/ proper description, and we'll both be winners
2. you shouldn't be afraid of uploading work that you think should be appreciated. the worst thing that could happen is that it gets deleted, where you can ask moderators why.
3. we delete things without any discrimination and aspire treat all with equality
4. read the policy. it really helps.5. if you have questions, ask us.
im sorry that many of you feel hatred toward what we're doing, but if we waver in our decision, how can we ever expect to keep the community in order?


1. My gallery is pretty small because I don't want to upload something I didn't do, so all the scans are actually my scans. So after the cleaning start I didn't have a single deletion of any of my submissions. Please take my word when I tell you I'm not doing this because I have been affected but because the community started to fell weird and I want to help finding ways to solve that.
2. But you will also loose time. Besides asking the mods is a reactive measure, it would be better if we can have a proactive measure like a place when a member can ask mods if a wall they do is good enough to be uploaded at MT or need more work. (I actually ask Keltosh about one of my walls by posting a message at his GB like 2 or 3 weeks ago... I'm still waiting for an answer)
3. I hope every mod think that way.
4. I already did and I translate both the policy and the FAQ to Spanish, ask Sheqel about the FAQ Spanish translation I email him like 2 or 3 months ago.
5. ... right now I'm waiting for an answer to a question I ask like 2 or 3 weeks ago... do you think that let me with the will of asking something at a mod GB again? A simple yes/no answer, followed by 'please don't bother me with this kind of issues at my GB anymore' would be enough.
I agree with you, you have to be firm about the decisions you make, but you also have to hear other members opinions before you take them. And don't tell me you do that... ok, you do, but almost every answer to the threads the mods create are like 'Yeah, you're a god' or 'We all love you' and you take that as truth, while most of those message are there just to win your protection/friendship. Mods should ignore this kind of messages and pay more attention to post from people like Charaznableamurorei (Yomiko-chan) or Papyworld, I think they always give a honest opinion and not just what the mods want to hear.

Concerning the free translators… I usually find that suggestion annoying and rude; those automatic translators can’t give a good translation right now.


About Jasmine's post:
I didn't want to sound as fighting/complaining. I really want to get some reflection about what is happening at MT. As I said, I wasn't affected by the gallery cleaning itself but by its consequences (the mood change along the members). I mean I don’t care about some images being erased but I do care about people getting angry and leaving the group and even provoking mods to get a ban… and then seeing mods that were provoked, showing themselves notably pissed off, making fun of the members they ban without realizing that the real intention of the members, who already decided to leave the community, is to piss of them just for fun.
Believe me… I have read the rules and I encourage other members to read them too. You can go to Hispanime and see at the 'view all post' page my post (they are in Spanish of course) most of the time I try to calm people down and tell them not to post in Spanish at the gallery nor at the forums. If you do you’ll also find that I defend the gallery cleaning in front of group members, at least I do before some people trust a lot told me about injustices happening and also hear things like 'I'm not submitting anything else at MT anymore' or members who proclaim themselves as auto-banned… after seeing all that it was clear to me that something was happening so this thread is a way of finding answer to the questions: why so many members are mad? What were the sources of the problem? and, how can we as members help mods so this doesn't happen again?

About Charazarnableamurorei's (Yomiko-chan) post:
Your propose about a social solution to the social problems of MT is really interesting (I do read your post at order-of-reason) but as someone at order-of-reason point, MT is a virtual community, so the solutions for most of the problems have to be technology based.
There is a big problem about a social solution… there aren't enough people to accomplish it. Maybe if we get a real community spirit in which each member is encourage to help other members without waiting for a reward, this will be possible. I hope this happen here soon.
I think everyone should read Yomiko's post at order-of-reason, it’s very interesting. I'd like to help in the initiatives you propose :)
Your idea about the groups cooperation is also very good, I'm busy right now, but I'll talk to some of my friends at the groups I'm in and I’ll see if someone is willing to help contacting other groups which want to collaborated with us to help members to improve their skills.
I’m not looking for any kind of reward or recognition, what I do is trying to give something back to the community. And since I'm not very good with graphics, I can only help with opinions and from time to time orienting a newbie in the right direction.

General thoughts
I have heard the idea of a voting to choose mods several times (someone point it out as and answer to Yomiko's post at Order-of-reason)… I personally think it would make the mods looks like beauty contest’s contestants, and we risk ourselves to end with a bunch of flatterers leading us. Changing mods will not change anything, what we do need is more communication between normal members and mods.

I'd like to propose collaboration between mods and other members, there are already projects going on (like the translations one) which needs someone to coordinate them. Mods alone can’t make everything, but with other members working side by side we can really make something good that helps the community to get bigger and stronger.

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