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The new US federal Abortion Law

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Mordin

Mordin

The Wise One

Title Child Custody Protection Act, it would outlaw transporting a minor across state lines to get an abortion to evade parental consent because there is a notification laws in the girl's home state. So the target is the people who asist the minor in crossing the state. The debate boils down to and I quoted:

"The bill's advocates evoke the image of a girl being impregnated by an abusive older man who then drives them to an out-of-state abortion clinic so the girl's parents and the authorities won't find out about a relationship that might have been illegal because of age differences.

Opponents of the bill say it would criminalize the well-meaning acts of an aunt, older sister or other confidante who assist a girl terrified of being beaten or evicted from home if her parents learned of the pregnancy."

What do you guys think, should those people that asist a minor to across state for abortion get punsihed?

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Archer79

Nerdly Ghost

...mmm Well. I consider the killing of a human fetus (esp. in the third trimester) to be a form of murder (Or maybe just manslaughter). ...So... Some regulation would be appropriate, IMHO. ...Of course, I suppose that's not what you asked. It is related though. It seems that it would be appropriate to pass legislation to stop accessories to crimes. ..Which is how I view this situation.

Palin88

Palin88

Complete Noob

It just boils down to pro or anti abortion.
If you're anti-abortion you support this (Like Archer).
If you're pro-abortion you probably don't like this law.

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Archer79

Nerdly Ghost

I like how he didn't use the PC terms. "Pro-life" and "Pro-choice" LOL Calls it like he sees it. :)

SilentMasamune

SilentMasamune

I'm all washed up. . .

Now young women cannot cross state lines to get an abortion, but I think that the people that help them get across the state line under the new regulation should be punished. A rule is a rule.

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Archer79

Nerdly Ghost

*without parent's/guardian's permission*

Quote by melmachine18Now young women cannot cross state lines to get an abortion

The problem with laws regarding abortion and stem cell research etc are that there are different beliefs (and i use the word belief rather opinion intentionally) as to when life begins. This makes any laws made regarding unfair to one belief or another.

I personally believe that a choice should be given to the potential parent, at the end of the day when they are given the choice they will be responsible for that choice, both in the eyes of the law and in the eyes of God. In certain situations i don't think it is possible for one human to judge another.

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Abortion? Wasn't an issue when I went to Taiwan to visit relatives. It's a private matter, so why are all you evangelical reactionary Christians caring so much? If an abortion happens right this instance, would you go on a worldwide crusade to stop this "evil?" Would you be willing to commit millions and millions of tax dollars to foster the care for these "unwanted" children? (Or, in their case, "wanted" children). It's already hard taking care of your own kids, so why care about others? If only parents can bear a bit more responsibility then maybe this won't be an issue.

About this new law, why is Congress wasting time to pass this anyways? Find out a way to get our gas prices down damnit.

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Sunira

Sunira

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frankly, using a "why care about others" argument is foolish. We might as well kill off all those kids in foster care that arent getting adopted quickly enough since they're sucking up our tax dollars. And frankly, its really immature of you to label all Pro-Lifers as Reactionary Evangelical Christians. Some of them are, some of them are not. The issue is not about whether it's a private matter or not. You can say murder was a private matter between two people, and one guy won, get over it. Why is the government in their business? Abortion hinges on whether a human fetus is granted the legal right to life or not, not whether its a private issue or not.
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Anyway, on the subject of the bill. Yes, I think its incorrect for someone to take a minor across the border to have an abortion to avoid letting the parents know. If your teenager is getting pregnant, you should know about it. Its obviously unhealthy for her, and if she has issues trusting you about it, you should be notified of her problems so that you can help her. Parents do care about their kids, and if they're in trouble, they need to be told. Especially concerning medical practices. Abortion is pretty much invasive surgery to remove a fetus embeded in a womans uterus, and that is serious. Parents should be told so that they can arrange for safe, at home care as well. Or maybe even counsel their child on the matter. Abortion is an emotional process too, and I have seen it in my friends and relatives who have had abortions. Its not good to hide those from your parents, who care for you anyway. I support this bill.

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I never said that all pro-lifers are evangelical reactionary Christians. Just that some are, and it irks me.

If abortion is murder, then masturbation is mass genocide.

I'm sure you've heard that before.

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Sunira

Sunira

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Yes. Ive heard it before. Just like the "God made adam and eve not adam and steve"
Personally im not fond of catchphrases because people say them as a substitute for a full arguement. Not pointed at you, dont take it that way.

Semen by itself will not grow into a child. A zygote however, will. Im sure you've heard that before too. On a cellular level, those two things are very different.

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Ok let's get back on topic.

Quote by MordinWhat do you guys think, should those people that asist a minor to across state for abortion get punsihed?

How many people actually do this? I need numbers to make a sound judgement.

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shinsengumi

Retired Moderator

shinsengumi

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I don't think that this question is simply one of pro-life or pro-choice; the nuance of the girl being a minor adds a whole new (and very significant) dimension. Think of it this way. . . when someone is a minor, raising them and ensuring their general well-being is the responsibility of their parents (or other legal guardian). When faced with a situation so significant or substantial as an abortion, at the very least the parents should have a say in the matter. If a girl thinks that telling her parents about being pregnant is bad, think about how much worse the parent-child dynamic would be if the parents found out that she not only got pregnant, but had an abortion without letting them know.

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sadotsu

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I don't think so. Their business is their business, no matter what it is.

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Archer79

Nerdly Ghost

Quote by LadholymanI never said that all pro-lifers are evangelical reactionary Christians. Just that some are, and it irks me.

If abortion is murder, then masturbation is mass genocide.

I'm sure you've heard that before.

I wonder if I qualify as an "evangelical reactionary Christian". Certainly, if I do, I think this will be the first time I've been labeled as "reactionary" or "evangelical". ...I suppose I don't mind being labeled as "Christian", as I can't really see anything wrong with that. (If indeed I was so labeled.)

Unfortunately, this matter seems to extend almost entirely from whether a person perceives abortion to be a form of murder or not. I think I made that reasonably clear, even without evangelizing or quoting the bible, but perhaps I am mistaken....

...Human life is human life. A human fetus quickly forms into a living, thinking being. You might do some research on the internet, and see how quickly things like eyes, ears, heart and brain are exhibited within the womb.

President Clinton vetoed a bill that would have banned some of most grotesque abortions. Did you realize, that moments before you were born, all the doctor had to do was suck out your brains with a vacuum, in effect killing you and preventing you from starting your life? ...Just to make life easier for someone else. It's murder. Killing a soon-to-be-born about to depart from the womb is little different that killing one who was just born. It's murder. I perceive it as such. However, I can understand why you might not. ...However, for such important matters, we have a judicial system. I hope that it will prove righteous in this matter eventually.

Ironically, I think the Roman Catholic Church does consider masturbation to fall along those lines too...

Yes the courts will decide. Although it'll most likely not be a problem in my life.

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Archer79

Nerdly Ghost

Quote by LadholymanYes the courts will decide. Although it'll most likely not be a problem in my life.

As in you will not conceive a child, or as in you have no intention of killing an unborn child?

belmikry

Retired Moderator

belmikry

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Quote by Alchemy101The problem with laws regarding abortion and stem cell research etc are
that there are different beliefs (and i use the word belief rather
opinion intentionally) as to when life begins. This makes any laws made
regarding unfair to one belief or another.
I personally believe that a choice should be given to the potential
parent, at the end of the day when they are given the choice they will
be responsible for that choice, both in the eyes of the law and in the
eyes of God. In certain situations i don't think it is possible for one
human to judge another.

perfectly said

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Quote by LadholymanYes the courts will decide. Although it'll most likely not be a problem in my life.


I am certain you are not that bias Lad and I certainly hope that we are not just so mindless to accept whatever the court may offer as laws or rules. To each his own I guess but you did strike me as someone with certain opinions. let's hear them clearly on that matter.

Quote by ArcherUnfortunately, this matter seems to extend almost entirely from whether a person perceives abortion to be a form of murder or not. I think I made that reasonably clear, even without evangelizing or quoting the bible, but perhaps I am mistaken....


No I think you did just fine. I am really one for acceptance of beliefs or what not but I still get shaky when only religion would rule our ways of living and thinking for ourselves. What is wrong with killing a born child who can't think for himself? Absolutely ridiculous idea....There's always something wrong with that BS.
BUT

Quote by ShinsenI don't think that this question is simply one of pro-life or pro-choice; the nuance of the girl being a minor adds a whole new (and very significant) dimension.


There, just simply that...This is also a discussion that should be done between the parents AND the child under the acknowledgment of what had occured (rape or whatever else).

a bit shorter but just a little grain of salt until this is developped further. Keep it going guys...Loving it

Archer79

Nerdly Ghost

Quote by DMNY

Quote by ArcherUnfortunately, this matter seems to extend almost
entirely from whether a person perceives abortion to be a form of
murder or not. I think I made that reasonably clear, even without
evangelizing or quoting the bible, but perhaps I am
mistaken....


No I think you did just fine. I am really one for acceptance of beliefs
or what not but I still get shaky when only religion would rule our
ways of living and thinking for ourselves. What is wrong with killing a
born child who can't think for himself? Absolutely ridiculous
idea....There's always something wrong with that BS. BUT

Pretty much the same things as killing retarted children, euthanasia, etc. ....And if you wanted to exaggerate the matter, perhaps those who don't have good grades. ...Or maybe just those who don't have blue eyes, or are girls, when you can only have so many kids and boys are desireable... ...But that's a big step outside.

...But it illustrates my point. ...Just because someone may not be desireable or appreciated by someone holding another person's life in their hands... ....doesn't justify the killing of that person...

...Of course, I don't think anyone said that it was okay in this thread though. ...At least not yet...

Quote by MordinTitle Child Custody Protection Act, it would outlaw transporting a minor across state lines to get an abortion to evade parental consent because there is a notification laws in the girl's home state. So the target is the people who asist the minor in crossing the state......What do you guys think, should those people that asist a minor to across state for abortion get punsihed?

I think that we have become a throwaway society in many ways. Assisting in the deliberate termination of an unborn child of a minor without the parents/guardian’s consent should be discouraged (in fact assisting in any abortion in my eyes is wrong). As a Christian, to me, all human life is sacred and no matter what the circumstances that lead up to/surround the conception of this new life, the newly created life in question is an innocent party in all of this. A minor needs to discuss the situation with her parents instead of sweeping it all under the carpet by circumventing them and getting someone else to help her terminate her pregnancy out of state. As parents of a minor they have a right to know. They (the minor and parents) can sit down and think things through and consider all of the options open to her (like hopefully keeping it or putting it up for adoption). Destroying another life growing inside of her will most probably haunt/traumatise her mentally, emotionally and psychologically for the rest of her life so, if other people (even well-meaning ones), are discouraged from assisting a minor because they know that they will be risking punishment from a court if they get caught, is better in my books, than allowing a Minor to make a hasty decision that may well affect her for the rest of her life.

Mordin

Mordin

The Wise One

I was wondering just about time someone tried to answer my acutal question, since I didn't meant it to be about abortion, but the person who transport the girl. It isn't about your feelings of pro life or pro choice, the girl isn't the one being charged with, the person who transport them are. In a sense the aid of another to abortion is criminal, but the act of abortion is sanction by law, I find that very inconsistent, personally I don't really care for the abortion debate because I have notice in the few above argument, it isn't going anywhere, because there is no advancement in the agrument, back to the same Judeo Christian Morality v. Individual Rights. I do wish we as a society come up with a standard, because right now it is in the gray zone with politican being too gutless to do anything to draw a line on it.

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Quote by MordinIn a sense the aid of another to abortion is criminal, but the act of abortion is sanction by law, I find that very inconsistent

Yes, I agree with you Mordin, it is very inconsistent isnt it. The Law opened up this whole can of worms in the first place by sanctioning it, now it seems as if they are trying to shut the stable door after the horse has bolted. (Personally, I dont think abortion should ever have been legalised in the first place)

Quote by MordinI do wish we as a society come up with a standard, because right now it is in the gray zone with politican being too gutless to do anything to draw a line on it.

I dont think society will ever come up with a standard because peoples views differ too much and in the case of such a sensitive issue as abortion, whatever stance is taken is going to cause a wave/backlash of hostility amongst those whose views are not favoured by it.

Kumiko-H

Kumiko-H

Professional reader

Quote by MordinWhat do you guys think, should those people that asist a minor to across state for abortion get punsihed?

This was you original question correct? Not whether or not abortion was right or wrong, so I will attempt to answer this question. I'll leave my opinion of abortion to myself.

If I were to look only at the fact that it is a minor being transported across state lines with out the consent of the parents, then yes that person should be punished. That is against Federal law (The Mann Act? I believe). It could be considered kidnapping in the eyes of the minor's parents, although I fully doubt that is the main purpose of prosecuting the helper. I am sure if a parent was to prosecute this would be their reasoning. Hope that makes sense because I am not quite sure how to explain it any further than that.

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