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same-sex marriage?

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IMO, we got to give freedom to those who love each other. Sure, many would point out at religion and sure some may talk about some public figures telling us what they think (are we starting to be automatons or what?) but all in all, we are given a choice here to accept or refuse 2 people loving each other.
Some said it would disrupt a family or the establishment of it? I say it's pure BS to actually think this way! (we are in 2005 not in some past centuries here people). Gay love has always existed throughout history and different cultures. Greek, Romans, Hindu, Japanese have done that and accepted this as a part of life. It is merely a question of belief and of upbringing that brought us to think otherwise. Nothing more.
Are you saying (general pointing here) that it is not acceptable because they can't have children? Because they can't perpetuate humanity? First, who said they wanted ALL of us to be gay? No one had ever said such a thing. Second, that would be saying that a straight couple (woman and man) who cant have children shouldn't be married or accepted as partners? pffff!!! Ridiculous. It had been demonstrated in different stats (wish I kept everything I read heh?) that gay population are earning more so than their straight counterparts.
The term of marriage is a bond as stated in this thread between two people in front of their community or society as a whole. Nothing more than that! The bible said it had to be between 1 man and 1 woman? This is religion and a book that was written ages ago. Would you say then that Buddhists and other religion should not marry because they are not recognized in the bible?
The world and the culture are changing, evolving and there are a lot of things we have to see as "new" even if it had been there for ages on. The only reasons I could see why people are so alarmed are for their own fear or identity issues. Sure, it's great to have some lines where we could measure our own morality in different matters. This is one of them...
Sounds silly perhaps but all in all I have nothing against gay people or who they are/do. I am quite liberal about that NON-issue and am quite confident in my own heterosexuality.
Are you? And if so why would you go against people who have decided to stay together and be seen as married?

kiri-chan

kiri-chan

Casual Waller

I've read all the comments in here; very interesting stuff. I am Christian but I have no solid view on this issue as of yet.
I just want to leave a quick reminder:
If you have not read God's Word, do not make assumptions on what He does and thinks. "God loves everyone" and "God won't send you to Hell for being homosexual" may be true, but there is so much more to it that you couldn't possibly understand if you haven't read the bible. These statements are very surface when in fact these subjects go much deeper.
According to the bible, homosexuality is a sin and God did not create humans that way.

I am Christian as well kiri-chan, I've been raised in Church and to tell you the truth, what is in the bible is a BASElines for certain answers and/or issues themselves. Theologists have been discussing the issues and other than the word of MAN (Because the bible is quite honestly an amagalm of different writings and passed on from zillions of translation works), based on God's teaching...And as everything written or done by man, I take it with the possible grain of salt.
Just so you know Sodom and Gommorah were not cities destroyed only because of their sexual ways there. God did not intend to create man and woman that way and yet, a lot of things have changed. I guess God will have to find some love to accept that much.

Quote by Rebel428I am against it. There are many reasons I feel this way, but these two are the biggest:
1) The family unit is the basic unit of society, and has been throughout the history of humanity. Outside of adoption, same-sex marriages cannot become families. Those who desire same-sex marriage do not desire to start a family anyway - they're mostly only doing it for the sex; being that marriage benefits are intended to encourage family building, there is no reason for homosexuals to be married.
2) This one should seem fairly obvious, but it apparently isn't. Certain male "parts" are designed to work with and complement certain female "parts," for the purpose of procreation. Both are obviously not present in a single sex relationship.
Despite my opinion, I -do- believe that homosexuals do deserve the respect due to all human beings. However, because it is both unnatural and destructive to society, homosexuality should most definitely be discouraged.

I totally agree with you!

Hey, marrige is a value you give to a lover and to God, I don't know about his liking about this but if it is said that he is not in valour for it, then you should not get married in his curch. And I don't belive that other religions than the Chrisian one puts homosexuals high on their liking lists.
No I don't have anything against homosexuals, I don't even belive in God but marrige is taken to light by everyone these days, look on to what it stands for, and if you can't live up to what it's about, don't DO IT! And that goes for everyone, even heterosexuals.

Quote by Steinbender

Quote by Rebel428I am against it. There are many reasons I feel this way, but these two are the biggest:
1) The family unit is the basic unit of society, and has been throughout the history of humanity. Outside of adoption, same-sex marriages cannot become families. Those who desire same-sex marriage do not desire to start a family anyway - they're mostly only doing it for the sex; being that marriage benefits are intended to encourage family building, there is no reason for homosexuals to be married.
2) This one should seem fairly obvious, but it apparently isn't. Certain male "parts" are designed to work with and complement certain female "parts," for the purpose of procreation. Both are obviously not present in a single sex relationship.
Despite my opinion, I -do- believe that homosexuals do deserve the respect due to all human beings. However, because it is both unnatural and destructive to society, homosexuality should most definitely be discouraged.


I totally agree with you!


So if we got into some cataclysm and no one would be able to procreate...We shouldn't marry huh?
Homosexuality being discouraged? Where's the freedom in this?
Marriage btw does not mean going to church. There are other ways to be accepted through different institutions...Please understand the issue before posting so ever lightly.

I think that people are looking at this the wrong way.

The purpose of the marriage benefits is -not- to be anti-homosexual; it is to promote child-bearing families. The government gives tax breaks and other benefits to heterosexual couples in order to ease the burden of raising children, which is almost universally considered a good thing.

What, one may then ask, about those heterosexual couples who are infertile or otherwise incaple of bearing children? While this is an issue that needs to be dealt with, there is still a rather obvious difference in the average number of children per family between heterosexuals and homosexuals.

Opening the door to abolishing supposed "discrimination against a particular sexual preference" also establishes a possibly dangerous precedent. If such an idea prevails, why, then, should we not equally support such things as pedophilia? I know that I may be committing a so-called "slippery slope" argument here, but I believe that, in this case, there -is- a certain line that, if crossed, can have much greater consequenes than currently envisioned.

Right but we have acess that it needs to be between two consenting adults so no freaking pedophiles.
I don't think the gay community is out there trying to change the world. I believe they are trying to get accepted as a whole like the rest of society they are evolving in. I'm certain they are not trying to get heterosexuals to change their sexual preferences either.
Gay couples cannot have children...We can (I mean us heterosexual).
I could open another window and say that we are all human beings here and have all different ways to love and cherish another being. It's really a question of open-mindness to them.

seiryumiko

seiryumiko

aka nike13

i dont see a real problem with it, i always hear the permitting it would degregate the sanctity of marriage, but considering half of the marriages end in divorce now-a-days...is there really sanctity in marriage? besides, in the US it shouldnt even be a govt issue since its up to the churches whether or not they want to marry people of the same sex anyway

yonge

Yonge

Biblically its wrong and the view that God made man and woman relationships for a purpose is true too. He gave us a choice to follow his ways or not...and obviously many people have strayed and have been completely ignorant of God and do what they want. I'm not saying that people don't do bad things anymore, but the attitude of completely going against God is wrong.

~Shinpiteki Da Ne~

yonge...Please find more than a couple of Bible passage where God strikes or denigrates homosexuals. Please make sure the context is clear enough (so make sure of the culture/time/situation the passage is involved in) and I'll see if it is against God.

Quote by DMNYI don't think the gay community is
out there trying to change the world. I believe they are trying to get
accepted as a whole like the rest of society they are evolving in. I'm
certain they are not trying to get heterosexuals to change their sexual
preferences either.

I could open another window and say that we are all human beings here
and have all different ways to love and cherish another being. It's
really a question of open-mindness to them.

You could replace "gay" with "pedophile" in every instance there, and you would pretty much be trying to get across the same idea.

Quote by seiryumikoi always hear the permitting it would degregate the sanctity of marriage, but considering half of the marriages end in divorce now-a-days...is there really sanctity in marriage?

A majority of people performing a certain action does not make that action morally correct. In the past, a majority believed that blacks were inherently inferior to other races. Were they correct?

Quote by seiryumikobesides, in the US it shouldnt even be a govt issue

It pretty much -isn't- an issue in the government; activists for homosexuals are simply making it one. As I said above, government benefits for heterosexual couples are aimed children, not necessarily the couples themselves.

Rebel
point 1- read above carefully, we are talking about consenting adults. Not about children or under age individuals. Kind of redundant repeating myself so sorry if I sound a bit harsh.

Your come back on Yumiko>>> What do you mean by that? That there are inferior races? Please make sure you use the correct examples here or be clear on them. Differences are not only racial nowaways. You have religion as well. That's another woop a$$ issue.

And right, the money/funds are tagged to couples with children only. I mean it's called Child support right?

seiryumiko

seiryumiko

aka nike13

Quote by Rebel428

Quote by DMNYI don't think the gay community is
out there trying to change the world. I believe they are trying to get
accepted as a whole like the rest of society they are evolving in. I'm
certain they are not trying to get heterosexuals to change their sexual
preferences either.
I could open another window and say that we are all human beings here
and have all different ways to love and cherish another being. It's
really a question of open-mindness to them.


You could replace "gay" with "pedophile" in every instance there, and you would pretty much be trying to get across the same idea.

i think theres a pretty big difference between people who want to molest children and people who fall in love with the same sex

Quote by Rebel428

Quote by seiryumikoi always hear the permitting it would degregate the sanctity of marriage, but considering half of the marriages end in divorce now-a-days...is there really sanctity in marriage?


A majority of people performing a certain action does not make that action morally correct. In the past, a majority believed that blacks were inherently inferior to other races. Were they correct?

how is forbidding people to marry one another the same as people believing that one race is better/worse than another. let people run their own lives, as long as they arent hurting any body, how is there a problem?

Quote by Rebel428

Quote by seiryumikobesides, in the US it shouldnt even be a govt issue


It pretty much -isn't- an issue in the government; activists for homosexuals are simply making it one. As I said above, government benefits for heterosexual couples are aimed children, not necessarily the couples themselves.

then what was it i heard about banning gay marriages all together? if the state adoption centers want to stop gay couples from adopting children, then thats the state's right since the children are under their care at that time, but marriage under a church is still a church's issue, not the US governments

Quote by DMNYRebel
point 1- read above carefully, we are talking about consenting adults.
Not about children or under age individuals. Kind of redundant
repeating myself so sorry if I sound a bit harsh.

The point was that, once you cross the line of no longer "discriminating" based on sexual preference, you turn all similar issues into a big gray area. Once you say that things outside of heterosexual relationships should be supported, where, then, do you draw the line? Who's to say that a relationship involving a minor is any more or less legitimate than one between two of the same sex?

Quote by DMNY

Your come back on Yumiko>>> What do you mean by that? That
there are inferior races? Please make sure you use the correct examples
here or be clear on them.

Take your own advice - "read above carefully." My point was that the majority is not always right, and the race issue was an example of such a situation.


Quote by seiryunomikohow is forbidding people to marry one another the same as people believing that one race is better/worse than another. let people run their own lives, as long as they arent hurting any body, how is there a problem?

Again, you are misunderstanding. Homosexuals can have their own devoted relationships all they want; nobody's stopping them, as there is no real reason to do so. It is a POSITIVE (the government supports childbearing couples), not a NEGATIVE (the government does NOT arrest people for being involved in homosexual relationships). It is not a "ban" on gay marriage; it is a lack of sponsorship for it.

Allow me to repeat, in case you don't get the point yet. "We will not support gay relationships" != "gay relationships are not allowed."

Quote by seiryumikobut marriage under a church is still a church's issue, not the US governments

Correct. The government really shouldn't be calling it "marriage" in the first place, since the benefits are aimed at easing the burden of raising children rather than directly supporting the couple's particular form of union, which should be left to individual religions (or lack thereof).

Quote by Rebel428
The point was that, once you cross the line of no longer "discriminating" based on sexual preference, you turn all similar issues into a big gray area. Once you say that things outside of heterosexual relationships should be supported, where, then, do you draw the line? Who's to say that a relationship involving a minor is any more or less legitimate than one between two of the same sex?


True it could turn into a gray area but then again wouldn't you think that 2 consenting adults would be able to make a decision based on their life's experiences? I would certainly hope so.

Quote by Rebel428 Take your own advice - "read above carefully." My point was that the majority is not always right, and the race issue was an example of such a situation.


Fair but just make it clearer, Yumiko was taking an example based on marriage and not on race (Which is still a touchy issue).

darkspiral486

darkspiral486

Carpe Annum

Ok, first of all, do any of you people out there have any idea of how many kids are sitting out there in orphanages, waiting for adoption, because their parents didnt want them, or couldnt keep them, or their mothers were whores who could barely support themselves? And where are most of those orphanages? In countries not as fortunate as Europe and the U.S. and such places!!! A member of my church went to Chile recently to adopt a baby. She came back telling horror stories about under-financed government orphanages that tie the babies down, feed them once a day and change their diapers once a week.

Now, do you agree that we should help these children, or should we leave them to rot? I think just about any of you with a soul would agree that we should help them as best we can. So, that means we adopt more, right? So, who in American society adopts the most?

You guessed it. Homosexuals! Why? Because, as we pointed out earlier, homosexual couples are incapable of procreating naturally. After all, why take somebody elses unwanted offspring when you can have your own? So, by opposing gay marraige, arent you indirectly leaving some kid abandoned down in Chile?

Also, a lot of you people are arguing that the Bible says its a sin? Well, first of all, DMNY makes a good point in that the Bible is not the Word of God incarnate. It is probably the word of God, but passed down by generations of Hebrews before finally getting written down, and revised countless times since then.

Have any of you ever played *Whisper Down the Lane* or *Telephone*, the game where you whisper something the first person said around a circle of people and listen to the end result aloud. You ever notice how the ending message is never what the first person intended? Try playing that game, only with about 1000 people, and half of them only speak High School Spanish while the rest are fluent in it, and the message is in Spanish. How garbled do you think it will be at the end? That is like the Bible in modern times, that message at the end of the lane.

Finally, for all of you Bible readers who missed this earlier, I will add a point I made in a debate in Confirmation class once. (for the record, I was baptized and raised Catholic, recently converted to Episcopalianism)

In the Acts of the Apostles, Peter is up on the roof of Simon the tanners house when he gets hungry and asks for something to eat. While it is being made, he falls into a trance and sees a vision of a sheet being lowered from heaven by its corners, filled with animals considered to be unclean by centuries of Jewish law. A voice said, *Come, Peter, kill and eat.*
*No, Lord, for no profane thing has ever passed my mouth* Peter replied.
*What the Lord God has made clean, you should not call profane.* The voice said, and this was repeated three times.

It meant that God was casting off centuries of his own laws to bring his message of hope to the Gentiles, with whom no Jew could assosciate with before without commiting an abomination.

If Peter had not recieved that vision, no Christian here today would be a Christian. We are, after all, all Gentiles. So, if God would change such a huge chunk of his own laws to allow the Gentiles to worship him, why are you complaining about one tiny clause of the law dated from the same time?

I am for same- sex marriage. It is totally reatarded how christians claim that we should do what god intended, or god hates gays, it's really irritating. If god exists, then he would not judge at all, nothing is nor evil, nothing is right nor wrong.

If gays want to marry then they can marry. It's what they want to do. Besides in america every human being, and even some dogs and cats, have civil liberties. If same sex marriages where prohibitied in this country it would be impeding on those citizens civil rights.

the right wing christians are mixing church and state which is also something that should not be done.

Humans must move forward, evolve, and become stronger. Too do this we must gain knowledge; because knowledge truly is power, and we must eliminate corporations non-violently; because the corporate machine hides the advancement of mankind too make a profit.

hate is the enemy as well, hate breeds destruction, and destruction breeds more hate. We must not hate and instead try to attain peace, but if we must fight we will...

Finally, the universe is infinitely big, and we are only a speck on the cosmic glass. There are things going on in the universe that are bigger than any of us could possibly imagine, so really there is no point in fighting and bickering in this human drama because we will be gone in the blink of an eye.

So we might as well make good use of our time and actually try to make a difference.

Cagari

Cagari

Eh?

Did you know.....that the people who commit suicide the most are homosexuals?....anyway, I just don't think it's right....it's reallllllly weird anyway.....a guy and another guy kissing...........................................................*shudder*(...)

Arc213

The Ghost of Chivalry

I disagree with same sex marriage. I don't mind them being together but marriage is a sacred rite between man and woman. Yeah, God mad some people homosexual, but there also exists those who want to practice polygomy and pedifilia. There is a line to be drawn to to what should be allowed. Besides I think rules and regulations should be based on truth, not consensus. In some places or in certain time periods, prostitution was ok with everybody but it doesn't make it right.

I change for no one. I live to go on being uncompromised.
I am not a dreamer for I live my dreams.

Ayamael

Ayamael

yumemitai

Quote by jtkwazYoy are such a pervert. And you know you probably gay and poor stupid
go somewhere else you dumb punk and you are probably the dumbest man on
this planet so go put your think up something else like pipe.


erm... i have no idea who you're talking to... and i don't think i want to know... get the faint feeling it's me for starting this thread though... >.< if that's the case... i'm a girl, so...

second i said on my first post and i quote :

Quote by Ayamaeland btw, everyone is entitled to their
opinion, you might disagree, but i don't want any flaming, for
anyone... please ^^

to everyone else, thanks for remaining civilized while stating your opinions... i appreciate it... obviously, this is still a heated debate that can cause a lot of animosity it seems... it is really interesting reading you all, even if i don't necessarily agree with you, everyone brought up very good points on both sides of this debate...

now i won't quote you all, coz it would take forever... but i remain in favor of same-sex marriage, why? as stated before, i don't believe marriage to be as sacred as it used to be... well i'm not a very religious person either... and i believe in equality. everyone should have the right to live as they intend, no matter their sexuality, their race, their religion... as long as it remains within the borders of morality... and here, it's not like a marriage between homosexuals is harmful to anyone else, it's their business, not anyone else's...

I can't really be bothered to reply or read what has been said in this thread but in my opinion, anyone who is against same-sex marriages is shallow minded.
There is not a single logical argument against it.

Jyu-Jyu

Jyu-Jyu

*blush*

no i don't believe in it -- goes against wat i believe -- this doesnt mean i hate ppl who are attracted to the same sex -- i can still be friends and like the person for who they are -- i just dont believe in the same thing when it comes to same sex marriage.

Tias

Tias

Slither slither on the ground

woot woot i dont understand any of this... <_<

or do you mean marrie som 1 in the same gender?...well if so... i really dont know what to say to it....as long as they dont try somting on me(if they are boy's...)but if girls...who knows^^ lol...

It is time for you to drown

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