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Sunira

Sunira

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Quote by Arinami
When it comes to voting for people, it's purely political. But for us
to vote on gay marriage is us deciding on another person's life. . We
don't know them, they don't know us. The fate of their life depends on
a bunch of strangers during a process that takes under a minute.
Is that right? It sounds more like an indirect form of slavery.

Almost every issue voted on affects someones life, positively and negatively. Even voting for a person. Its not purely political. So many decisions that that person will make affects people. We control other peoples lives everyday just by voting for ANY law. So, maybe I didnt not understand your reply. Are you saying you should take away peoples right to vote if it impacts someone else's life? But that would mean we would no longer have control over criminals' lives, abusive parents live's, foster children, etc...So..any law affecting what people can and cannot do is an indirect form of slavery by your definition. And unfortunately, that is what a government runs on: Laws.

This is why I love America. On the 7th page, and I can see one person preach at the top of his/her lungs, what I will spend the rest of my life arguing against. Life is good.

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Sunira

Sunira

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Debating is good. I love to do it. It helps me see many sides of the issue, and modify what I believe in according to what sounds sensible. Plus I like playing devils advocate. It really helps to argue from both sides of the issue. On this matter, I know we cannot magically stop people from being gay. I understand that. There were always gay people, its something human. I however am trying to find a way to get around, in a positive manner, the issue of voting vs. morality. I mean theres no laws against adultery, and I dont see anyone hopping around about it. I wish more people would be politically involved in todays issues, if its just to go out and vote. It would help this country move forward a lot faster if could get people to make good pointers for both sides of the issues so that when people go into the polling booths they are voting on an issue because they have weighed both sides of the arguement and made a good concious decisions because of it. Not like today where we have people walking in with "im going to vote for this because God said [insert one line out of context from the bible here]" or "im gonna vote for this because i hate dem damn christians".

Quote by Sunira

Quote by Arinami
When it comes to voting for people, it's purely political. But for us
to vote on gay marriage is us deciding on another person's life. . We
don't know them, they don't know us. The fate of their life depends on
a bunch of strangers during a process that takes under a minute.
Is that right? It sounds more like an indirect form of slavery.


Almost every issue voted on affects someones life, positively and negatively. Even voting for a person. Its not purely political. So many decisions that that person will make affects people. We control other peoples lives everyday just by voting for ANY law. So, maybe I didnt not understand your reply. Are you saying you should take away peoples right to vote if it impacts someone else's life? But that would mean we would no longer have control over criminals' lives, abusive parents live's, foster children, etc...So..any law affecting what people can and cannot do is an indirect form of slavery by your definition. And unfortunately, that is what a government runs on: Laws.

Maybe you're misunderstanding me again, but I figured this response.

When we vote for a person, we're placing our trust in this person to make the right decision. (America is not actually a democracy, but is more like representative republic, by the way). Laws effect most people to a certain extent - should I worry about drugs being illegal? No, because it has zero effect on me. Laws like this are made to keep us out of danger and safe, as well as keep others out of danger and safe.

I guess homosexuals are dangerous.

But when WE, the citizens, start getting to decide on the rights of others is when there should be a fine line drawn. How about I start a crusade to make bibles illegal in homes, hmm? I mean after all, according to you, it IS my right to vote for whatever I believe in, whether or not my vote is intruding on somebody's personal rights as a citizen of the United States of America, and is also completely biased and bigoted, not to mention pathetic. I get dictate another person's life based on my own beliefs. Is that fair? You tell me.

When it boils down to YOU telling ME what to do in my private life, I say no, we citizens should not have that power.


Sunira

Sunira

www.sunira.net

Quote by Arinami
Maybe you're misunderstanding me again, but I figured this response.
When we vote for a person, we're placing our trust in this person to
make the right decision. (America is not actually a democracy, but is
more like representative republic, by the way). Laws effect most people
to a certain extent - should I worry about drugs being
illegal? No, because it has zero effect on me. Laws like this are made
to keep us out of danger and safe, as well as keep others out of danger
and safe.
I guess homosexuals are dangerous. But when WE, the citizens, start
getting to decide on the rights of others is when there should
be a fine line drawn. How about I start a crusade to make bibles
illegal in homes, hmm? I mean after all, according to you, it IS my
right to vote for whatever I believe in, whether or not my vote is
intruding on somebody's personal rights as a citizen of the United
Statesof America, and is also completely biased and bigoted, not to
mention pathetic. I get dictate another person's life based on
my own beliefs. Is that fair? You tell me. When it boils down to YOU
telling ME what to do in my private life, I say no, we citizens should
not have that power.

I most certainly never said homosexuals were dangerous...
If you start a crusade to make bibles illegal in homes, who will stop you? Sure, some people will be upset at it, but its not 'dangerous' not to have a bible in the home. And it will, if it gets enough support, be put into vote by some court. Just like all banned books are today. I think you're taking this too personally. Im making arguments to consider an alternative to basic voting, which is what we're left with at the moment. You cannot walk into city hall and say "we cannot put this to vote because it decides how someone lives their lives personally". You must put it to vote. You or your reps MUST vote for or against the bills! All I was saying is that we cannot simply take the power of vote from someone. That would be like saying "I agree with what you're saying so I think you should be able to vote. I dont agree with what you're saying so you shouldnt be able to vote that way". Now thats dangerous. How do we change this political system so that we can or cannot decide on things like this? And then who will decide whether the issue is something that should or should not be voted on? What kind of 'extent' does the law have to have on a personal life to be deemed as unvoteable? Not on a moral level, but on a political level, this was my question, which I think you misunderstood as "gay people suck and everyone should be able to control everyone's lives". Which of course is not what I was arguing about at all if you had carefully read my arguements...


So, not only do you not understand my point, but you're also twisting my words...

Do you think it's constitutional to let people vote for rights of others?


There is no danger in being a homosexual. There is no danger in two homosexuals marrying. It does not effect you. You won't even know that Mr. Robert Kristof and Mr. Gary Hoffman married. You will probably never meet them. You probably won't even know they exist.

So why are you trying to rule their life?

Stop trying to turn this into a major political armageddon. The United States isn't going to combust if you're denied the ability to put you nose in somebody else's private life. The United States will not crumble to an end if us citizens learn morals such as tolerance, acceptance, and keeping your nose out of somebody else's business. The United States will end, however, if we start dictating what everybody else should do.

Because that, my dear, stands for everything this country was not made to stand for.

There lies a fine line between an "issue" and a clash of opinion. National security is an issue. Illegal immigration is an issue. But gays marrying? That's not an issue. It's just something that doesn't sit well with a couple of bible thumpers, and so they're fighting the good fight to take away peoples' rights based on their own personal religious values.

And homosexuals are truly dangerous. Don't go near one. They bite.

Patriot Act. Pro or against?

Like I said, I don't care if they marry, just as long as they stay 30 feet away from me.

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Sunira

Sunira

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Quote by ArinamiSo, not only do you not understand my point, but you're also twisting
my words...
Do you think it's constitutional to let people vote for rights of
others?
There is no danger in being a homosexual. There is no danger in two
homosexuals marrying. It does not effect you. You won't even know that
Mr. Robert Kristof and Mr. Gary Hoffman married. You will probably
never meet them. You probably won't even know they exist.
So why are you trying to rule their life?
Stop trying to turn this into a major political armageddon. The United
States isn't going to combust if you're denied the ability to put you
nose in somebody else's private life. The United States will not
crumble to an end if us citizens learn morals such as tolerance,
acceptance, and keeping your nose out of somebody else's business. The
United States will end, however, if we start dictating what everybody
else should do.
Because that, my dear, stands for everything this country was not made
to stand for.
There lies a fine line between an "issue" and a clash of opinion.
National security is an issue. Illegal immigration is an issue. But
gays marrying? That's not an issue. It's just something that doesn't
sit well with a couple of bible thumpers, and so they're fighting the
good fight to take away peoples' rights based on their own personal
religious values.
And homosexuals are truly dangerous. Don't go near one. They bite.
Patriot Act. Pro or against?

You're not even reading my questions. And you're putting words into my mouth.

Let me restate things that you are assuming I mean but I have not said anything about.
1) Homosexuals are evil and scary and dangerous
+ No, I never ever included them in any of those categories
2) The USA will fall into pieces if we pass gay marraige laws or any laws on private lives.
+ No, I never said that either. It will not, in fact, and that is WHY im looking for an alternative solution to the one we have now, so that we can have options to change the voting system. Right now we have to put even non-issues like this to a vote because thats how this country runs right NOW. I never said it couldnt run any other way.
3)You wont ever meet mr + mr so and so...
+ I dont really need to meet random gay people, I have gay/bi friends already. Im not some stereotypical ignorant homophobe as you imply in your misplaced sarcasm.

-------------------------------
Back to what I was saying.
Right now the issue, which being labeled as a nonissue suddenly wont make it dissappear from courts, is on homosexual marraige. Sure fine, I know that you cannot make someone nonhomosexual, Ive been saying that from the start. I also know that the laws will not magically be passed without people on both sides voting to allow it as long as we have a representative government. You and I can both agree on that.

Now, how do we deny what we could easily deem as practice of religious beliefs? In the constitution it says:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"
Ok, its not going to take preference of any religion. But its not going to deny people to excersize their beliefs either. Lets move on to see what other options we have...
We have this little ditty here:
"The right of citizens of the United States shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex."

So marraige appears to not be technically denied someone depending on their gender, assuming marraige is a right of a citizen which is not something present in the consitituion. So really none of us are guaranteed marraige at the moment.

Ok, so I hope that is more clear, now that you know where Im arguing from.
Heres the question presented again. How do we get around the issue of bypassing voting to pass a law, when this country clearly runs on a voting system? As of now, the only solution I can see is to wait it out. Support for gay marraiges has grown, and is growing presently. So, like before with the blacks of the USA, is this just something we have to wait out until there are enough votes to pass it? There must be some solution other than the long legal process to decide smaller issues like this, not just gay marraige. Soon we will have to deal with ideologies of polygamists(which is part of many cultures) and some other things that have nothing to do with the marraige issue itself. Anyone have any ideas?

I'll check back tomorrow. Im quite overdue for studying for my final exams. *sigh* I love political discussions, its amost hard to leave. :)

Archer79

Nerdly Ghost

Quote by Arinami
I guess homosexuals are dangerous. But when WE, the citizens, start
getting to decide on the rights of others is when there should
be a fine line drawn. How about I start a crusade to make bibles
illegal in homes, hmm? I mean after all, according to you, it IS my
right to vote for whatever I believe in, whether or not my vote is
intruding on somebody's personal rights as a citizen of the United
States of America, and is also completely biased and bigoted, not to
mention pathetic. I get dictate another person's life based on
my own beliefs. Is that fair? You tell me. When it boils down to YOU
telling ME what to do in my private life, I say no, we citizens should
not have that power.


Arinami, I would suggest that there are other people involved here than just homosexual couples or their personal lives.

....In my mind, a marriage is the foundation of a family. While a family can certainly exist without a mom or dad I still see a solid foundation of a family resting on two loving parents sharing and upholding the family. I also note that there seems to be certain attributes that are generally exhibited by women more than men, and vice-versa. ....Although such an observation could quickly deteriorate into a debate as to the origin being from nature or nurture, in either case, the attributes still seem to stand.

I would suggest that a man and woman are the ideal combination for starting a family. Certainly, should a parent be lost, many families have been preserved through single-working-parents and/or remarriage. In cases when the environment is not suitable for the child, many forms of care help to nurture a child in the absence of the ideal. ...But it's not the ideal.

i would suggest that such a non-traditional pairing could also provide a significant impact towards the life or upbringing of the child. I am reasonably confident that you can recall fitting in at school, and all the challenges that had to be overcome as you developed into your current, social self. I would imagine it would be difficult for a child to grow up as a "model child" of a "non-ideal circumstance". (For either being a "poster child" or generally assured a "non-ideal circumstance.) Further, I would suggest that the absence of those special characteristics found in hetero-sexual parents, the child may have many problems on many levels.

In short, I do not believe in certifying homosexual relationships as a marriage. ...It's not the ideal. It's not even close in my perceptions. ...And that's not even broaching the ethical question pertaining to homosexual activity.

I would suggest, Arinami, that this situation is much more complex than reaching into people's personal lives and forcing them to behave a certain way. I will also suggest that this entire concern greatly affects the sanctity of the heterosexual couple and natural upbringing of children.

I am curious.. Would you have been okay if your parents were both women? Did you get nothing from your dad? If you didn't have a dad, do you wish you did? ....Or perhaps you were without a mom, or could imagine such a circumstance...

...In spite of the non-ideal, you can grow to be a good, even great - perhaps even the best - person in spite of the environment you grow in. However, I hope to see the best possible chances for children. ...I hope you can sympathize.

.....

Also, I find myself compelled to denounce the implication you made by bringing up the matter of banning bibles. I believe that this matter extends far beyond the scope of religious concern. This matter is not about ruining people's personal lives or forcing religion. Rather, I perceive this matter as resulting from the increasingly frequent question of the validity of a "same sex marriage".

i have attempted to formulate a response directly engaging the concepts you have presented. I feel there is even a greater depth of validity in this effort to more clearly define a marriage. However, I would prefer not to clutter the scope of this discussion.

Holy spit sauce it's hot in here. Such flaming rhetoric. Maybe we need to all think to ourselves, ARE WE GAY?

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Sunira

Sunira

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Ladholyman: You're hilarious. :} hehe, <3

Well whoopidy doo...I'm tagging myself in....
Remember please that this is my own opinion and I am certainly not in any position to insult someone else's for his/her opinion on the matter. Let's play fair here and a nod to each of the participants to continue this (if need be) in a control, respectable and civilized manner.

Quote by ArinamiThere lies a fine line between an "issue" and a clash of opinion. National security is an issue. Illegal immigration is an issue. But gays marrying? That's not an issue. It's just something that doesn't sit well with a couple of bible thumpers, and so they're fighting the good fight to take away peoples' rights based on their own personal religious values.


Hey doesn't it feel like some people making/thinking/assuming/reflecting those laws and civilities have the wrong issues in hands? Then again, it comes to the point where some others would come back to you and claim "well Hell, what about me? I have the right for 5 wives in my religion OR Hey I'm in love with a 6 years old who is rocking my boat.". Got to remember people that we are talking about 2 consenting adults here...emphasize on 2 and adults or is this still eluding some people's mind. Hmmm I wonder....
That's just me but I'm no politician but sure let's come back as the role model to the rest of the world and tackle some abortion issue (please see the other thread for that matter).

Quote by ArinamiStop trying to turn this into a major political armageddon. The United States isn't going to combust if you're denied the ability to put you nose in somebody else's private life. The United States will not crumble to an end if us citizens learn morals such as tolerance, acceptance, and keeping your nose out of somebody else's business. The United States will end, however, if we start dictating what everybody else should do.


God (oops dont shoot me I just blasphemed by using the name of you know who in vain) I would say that it is already happening but let's stay focus on the matter of 2 gays (by the way...gay do reflect lesbians as much as their male counterparts...Just a detail since a lot of people are just so fond of 2 girls kissing but 2 guys kissing is a big no-no...F@@@ing hypocrisy I tell ya) marrying each other. The laws are in need to reflect that not only a man and a woman can be married to each other since it seems that this point has yet to be reflected on today's society. Yes, a society which can be accepting and respectful of other people's lives. Then again, what can you do when some laws still reflect the bonified hopes of some politicians who wish to uphold a religious (cringes yes I know) standard. Hell, who controls who is beyond me sometimes.

Quote by ArinamiWhen it boils down to YOU telling ME what to do in my private life, I say no, we citizens should not have that power.

Too late!!! Oh wait, that would have to be okay if this constitute a matter of national security right? Wonder if Ben Laden is gay? Hmmm...whatever.

Quote by SuniraSo..any law affecting what people can and cannot do is an indirect form of slavery by your definition. And unfortunately, that is what a government runs on: Laws.


Well I do believe in a conspiracy where we all have been brainwash to accept whatever the government (whichever one) is making in acts/laws/parties but Shhhhh...Just smile and accept the fact. Sarcasm apart, you are so right Sunira, each country is governed by laws. These laws are voted by OUR reps. There should be an understanding that the majority does not reflect the complete image. Yes, minority and majority do make that picture possible. Laws are (I'm not pointing at you by the way...Just a general statement) made to govern and bring a certain peace and structure to our countries. I never will think nor accept a law that is brought up to control our lives and our freedom. If I wanted Dictatorship? I'll move to North Korea...So yes, we are bound to certain laws and I have a right, as a citizen, to reflect and agree with such laws. Will that make me arrested? Hell yeah and gladly so. I ain't no freaking clone.

So again...Here it just unravels as this much (like Ladholyman said)
Gays are human beings and citizens....They have yet to impede on my freedom. When a crowd of gay would come and tell me that heterosexuality is wrong, I will then raise my head and say something else. That did not happen yet...
Those who wish to marry must be consenting and two...YES only two...Harem is but a fantasy now...(well for most of us) as such there is no way in my mind that anyone should tell them how to live their love.
I'm sorry that is going to sound really bad but screw the quotations from the Bible as a reference on our lives here and NOW. I'm sorry, I dont see how something that was written millennias ago and (as I did state in an earlier post) passed from different levels of translation. I do accept what guidelines is there but as a being able to think and discuss, there are other matters I would see as impossible to enforce in our modern times. Anyone still walking the streets in toga? Anyone? No? Okay...
Financial...DUN DUN dun!!!! This had been spoken on before didn't it? not over repeating myself again.
Biological? Yeah, they are not able to reproduce. No, this is not a Arnold Schwarzennegger movie where a man can get pregnant although maybe if they could? Who knows? Yes, the only way for them to get children would be through adoption. What's wrong with that? They shouldn't get married on the sole fact they cannot reproduce I hear...Well Please, anyone not able or willing to have children should have their marriage certificate revoked as soon as possible Mmmmk? ok!

So now....Patriotic act? Let's see a thread for that one ;) and yes Ladholyman...It was long and it was nonetheless fun to write all this.

miraku-spike

miraku-spike

~Rurouni Kenshin~

Quote by melmachine18You're so sweet, Ayamael. I love you for that! :) Leave it to me to post in the hard-to-post-in threads! xd
i wouldn't agree with same-sex marriage. Officials are trying to end same-sex marriage in the US. Some people say that the minds of those who are married to a same-sex person are negatively tweaked, but it could be an unjust statement until more people are surveyed about the subject. That's about all I know.
Of course, marrying you would be no problem at all. XP I'm so gullible! XP

Hey, someone here loves ya!!
Well, anyways. I think that same marriage is normal. I mean, it really doesn't matter what the gender is. Just as long as they love each other. That's all it matters!!

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Archer79

Nerdly Ghost

DMNY spent too much time posting, and didn't get a chance to rip on my post...

LOL....You are right Archer, I will leave it to someone else at the present time but at the very least, you wrote "suggest".

Archer79

Nerdly Ghost

I sure did. Thanks. I feel better now. ;)

Wow, these kinda threads always draw in a lot of tension. Religion, abortion, same-sex marriages, etc. I'll just keep it short, because most of my points have already been discussed.

I think we should just let people marry whoever they want, as long as they're of legal age and not blood-related. There is no legit reason whatsoever to not let two people marry one another. Laws that are based on or take away rights from certain genders, races, religions, and whatnot are just wrong. They're just as bad as hate-crimes, because in the end that's all it comes down to: hate. But thats just my opinion though. Flame away :)

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Minato

Minato

...scatter the dream...

Hm...if someone wants to marry another person...then they should be allowed to...after all, homosexuality is more of a matter of genetics than of choice; unless genetic engineering becomes commonplace, these practices cannot be discouraged, only hidden.

Of course, many would argue that homosexual marriage would lead to homosexual divorce. thus flooding the courts...but in that case, what's the legal point of having heterosexual marriage?

And others say that homosexuality is "destructive" and "unnatural;" why should this be? It's not as if there's a driving need for reproduction in this age...
...but if that should be so desired, Japanese scientists have managed to successfully mate two female mice together, to create "Kagura": a mouse born of, in all respects, a same sex couple. It's only a matter of decades before this experiment proves successful between two human women.

Archer79

Nerdly Ghost

Quote by Minato...after all, homosexuality is more of a matter of genetics than of choice; unless genetic engineering becomes commonplace, these
practices cannot be discouraged, only hidden.

I've heard this before.. ...But for all of you folks that put alot of stock in Darwin, could you please riddle me how things that can't reproduce naturally would pass on such a gene?

And what if it is later determined that folks who tend to shoplift were genetically inclined to do so? Or to be a pedofile perhaps....? Let's not try to obscure right from wrong behind loosely fitted lines of what someone may or may not be genetically inclned to do...

Quote by Archer79

Quote by Minato...after all, homosexuality is more of a matter of genetics than of choice; unless genetic engineering becomes commonplace, these
practices cannot be discouraged, only hidden.


I've heard this before.. ...But for all of you folks that put alot of stock in Darwin, could you please riddle me how things that can't reproduce naturally would pass on such a gene?
And what if it is later determined that folks who tend to shoplift were genetically inclined to do so? Or to be a pedofile perhaps....? Let's not try to obscure right from wrong behind loosely fitted lines of what someone may or may not be genetically inclned to do...

Well, pedofiles have pointed out in courts many times that they are just the same as homosexuals/bisexuals/heterosexuals. The only difference is that they're sexual preference lies with underage kids. They've never won such an argument and I don't think they ever should. They do have an interesting point though..

However, it is quite normal that genes can pass down many generations before taking any effect. For example, some families have some sort of disease or illness that runs through their family. Several generations might not have it, but someone is going to down the line. Take the down-syndrome for example. It basically comes down to mutated genes in children passed on from their parents. Does it mean their parents were retarded? No.

We should view homosexuality like a given thing, not like a choice. It's like the color of your eyes; you didn't get to pick them and they don't always resemble your parents'. Besides, even if homosexuality turns out to be a choice, it shouldn't be a problem.

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darkspiral486

darkspiral486

Carpe Annum

Quote by dutchforce

Quote by Archer79

Quote by Minato...after all, homosexuality is more of a
matter of genetics than of choice; unless genetic engineering becomes
commonplace, these
practices cannot be discouraged, only hidden.


I've heard this before.. ...But for all of you folks that put alot of
stock in Darwin, could you please riddle me how things that can't
reproduce naturally would pass on such a gene?
And what if it is later determined that folks who tend to shoplift were
genetically inclined to do so? Or to be a pedofile perhaps....? Let's
not try to obscure right from wrong behind loosely fitted lines of what
someone may or may not be genetically inclned to do...


Well, pedofiles have pointed out in courts many times that they are
just the same as homosexuals/bisexuals/heterosexuals. The only
difference is that they're sexual preference lies with underage kids.
They've never won such an argument and I don't think they ever should.
They do have an interesting point though..
However, it is quite normal that genes can pass down many generations
before taking any effect. For example, some families have some sort of
disease or illness that runs through their family. Several generations
might not have it, but someone is going to down the line. Take the
down-syndrome for example. It basically comes down to mutated genes in
children passed on from their parents. Does it mean their parents were
retarded? No. We should view homosexuality like a given thing, not like
a choice. It's like the color of your eyes; you didn't get to pick them
and they don't always resemble your parents'. Besides, even if
homosexuality turns out to be a choice, it shouldn't be a problem.

Also, Darwinism has essentially been eliminated as far as humans are concerned. After all, we dont let the weak die anymore. Traits that would have been weeded out of the gene pool by natural selection are now preserved thanks to the wonders of medical science.

gays and lesbians are people too, right? so why not?

Quote by Sunira
You're not even reading my questions. And you're putting words into my mouth.
Let me restate things that you are assuming I mean but I have not said anything about.
1) Homosexuals are evil and scary and dangerous
+ No, I never ever included them in any of those categories
2) The USA will fall into pieces if we pass gay marraige laws or any laws on private lives.
+ No, I never said that either. It will not, in fact, and that is WHY im looking for an alternative solution to the one we have now, so that we can have options to change the voting system. Right now we have to put even non-issues like this to a vote because thats how this country runs right NOW. I never said it couldnt run any other way.
3)You wont ever meet mr + mr so and so...
+ I dont really need to meet random gay people, I have gay/bi friends already. Im not some stereotypical ignorant homophobe as you imply in your misplaced sarcasm.

Did I say that you said any of that?
Didn't think so.
What I post does not have to be in reference to anything you've said.

Quote by SuniraHow do we get around the issue of bypassing voting to pass a law, when this country clearly runs on a voting system? As of now, the only solution I can see is to wait it out. Support for gay marraiges has grown, and is growing presently. So, like before with the blacks of the USA, is this just something we have to wait out until there are enough votes to pass it? There must be some solution other than the long legal process to decide smaller issues like this, not just gay marraige. Soon we will have to deal with ideologies of polygamists(which is part of many cultures) and some other things that have nothing to do with the marraige issue itself. Anyone have any ideas?
I'll check back tomorrow. Im quite overdue for studying for my final exams. *sigh* I love political discussions, its amost hard to leave. :)

We citizens (excluding political figures) don't vote on everything that's been made law. As a matter of fact, we seldom get to vote on such things. Those 11 states allowing their citizens to vote on gay marriage is a rarity.

If marriage between homosexuals is something that needs to be taken to court, in the same aspect, we can protest our little heads off and bring marriage between two people of different races to court. We can try to make big age gaps between two people illegal, and marrying somebody from a different city illegal...

Is it not ridiculous?

Marriage is overall not something to be decided upon in court. If we are the democracy we claim to be, if two people love each other, what business is it of ours to control their life? Hitler did something similar, where "pure-blooded" Germans could only marry and mate those who were also the same.

So... we allow people of different races to marry, we allow people of different genders to marry... but that's all!

We can't ignore the other topics. Sooner or later, they're going to be brought up. If somebody wants to have multiple husbands/wives, more power to you. That's if the multiple husbands/wives are willing. Polygamy is common for Mormons, but the problem is, most of those girls are basically being held against their will. They're trapped in a society where they're the underdogs. That's a problem all in its own.

Polygamy also breeds incest, which we know to be illegal. Morally, we're told that it's wrong. Biologically, most children of incest are mentally retarded in some form or another. The latter is the major nix against polygamy. The former is just more moral reasons which shouldn't actually be considered. We can't choose our family, so if two relatives love each other and can produce safely, then so be it. But consideration has to be taken to the fact that the potential kiddies are at risk.

I think DM mentioned something about marrying little kiddies... at 6 years old, they don't have the mental capabilities to make a decision all on their own. Add 10 years to that, when they're mature and capable of making their own decisions, and go for it. A girl I know is 16 and married to a 38 year old. Good luck to them, and that's that.

i love debating, but it seems I have a lot of catching up to do since I logged off last night. Minkia. I need a personal secretary...

You are terribly impatient, my dear ^_^'

Quote by Archer79
Arinami, I would suggest that there are other people involved here than just homosexual couples or their personal lives.

....In my mind, a marriage is the foundation of a family. While a family can certainly exist without a mom or dad I still see a solid foundation of a family resting on two loving parents sharing and upholding the family. I also note that there seems to be certain attributes that are generally exhibited by women more than men, and vice-versa. ....Although such an observation could quickly deteriorate into a debate as to the origin being from nature or nurture, in either case, the attributes still seem to stand.

I would suggest that a man and woman are the ideal combination for starting a family. Certainly, should a parent be lost, many families have been preserved through single-working-parents and/or remarriage. In cases when the environment is not suitable for the child, many forms of care help to nurture a child in the absence of the ideal. ...But it's not the ideal.

i would suggest that such a non-traditional pairing could also provide a significant impact towards the life or upbringing of the child. I am reasonably confident that you can recall fitting in at school, and all the challenges that had to be overcome as you developed into your current, social self. I would imagine it would be difficult for a child to grow up as a "model child" of a "non-ideal circumstance". (For either being a "poster child" or generally assured a "non-ideal circumstance.) Further, I would suggest that the absence of those special characteristics found in hetero-sexual parents, the child may have many problems on many levels.

In short, I do not believe in certifying homosexual relationships as a marriage. ...It's not the ideal. It's not even close in my perceptions. ...And that's not even broaching the ethical question pertaining to homosexual activity.

*applauds* Truly a heart-warming, motivtional speech on traditional family values. But please tell me, why is the divorce rate at 50%? This little fact sort of shoots your ideal family to all hell...

The "traditional family" is ideally something from the 50's or 60's. Mother stays at home and takes care of the house and the children, father brings home te bacon, Little Susie and Little Johhny are perfect students and athletes. They're a kind, loving family, eating dinner at precisely 6 o'clock and going to church every Sunday. They're involved with their community, the neighbors love them, and overall, they are what every family wants to be; perfect.

Having an adult man and woman does not make a family. Single mothers have and are successfully raising their children, working long hours but still managing to provide for their children. Men are finding themselves in the kitchen, getting dinner ready and baking cookies for their daughter's bake sale because now they're the sole parent. In some of these cases, in many of these cases, they're single because they couldn't work things out with their ex-spouse, or because their spouse cheated, or was abusive.

Are you saying that it's better for them to stay together in order to live up to the "ideal" image of a family?

That's all it is; an image.

I find it rather rude that you're implying that single parents aren't as good as raising a child as two parents would be.

Quote by Archer79
I am curious.. Would you have been okay if your parents were both women? Did you get nothing from your dad? If you didn't have a dad, do you wish you did? ....Or perhaps you were without a mom, or could imagine such a circumstance...

...In spite of the non-ideal, you can grow to be a good, even great - perhaps even the best - person in spite of the environment you grow in. However, I hope to see the best possible chances for children. ...I hope you can sympathize.

No, I don't.

When it comes to school and a youngster being teased because his or her parents are gay... that's a very weak argument. We ALL were teased for something or another. If anything, a child living under two parents of the same gender will obviously be more tolerant and acceptant than many other children will. He or she will find their friends, know their enemies, just as every other child will, just as we all have.

There is no sancity of a heterosexual couple. Shall we reflect on the divorce rate again?

As for me... you don't know a thing about be, but I can assure you that it's far from traditional. And you know what? I'm fine.

Maybe you should realize that the best chances for a child is having somebody to love them. Maybe two people to loved them. And if those two people happen to be of the same gender, then so be it. It's amazing that right now, thousands of children are looking past the "ickyness" of having two parents of the same gender and only see that they have two parents who love them, they're a family, while you sit here and degrade them, as if gay couples are unfit to be parents.

By the way. I have a Aunt who is a lesbian- I've met her partner, who is my "Uncle".

Quote by Archer79

Also, I find myself compelled to denounce the implication you made by bringing up the matter of banning bibles. I believe that this matter extends far beyond the scope of religious concern. This matter is not about ruining people's personal lives or forcing religion. Rather, I perceive this matter as resulting from the increasingly frequent question of the validity of a "same sex marriage".

You missed the point of me mentioning banning bibles.

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