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Caiobrz

Caiobrz

Wispy

I don't see where we are having a nice discussion, when you reply for each and every argument with the obvious answer we are all outlaws. Yes we are, as ilanka posted, so thats BEYOND the point.

"You won't enter a Gay bar and start discussing if they are Gay are you?" So, we here are all - in a way - out laws - so there is NO point discussing WE and ratter there is some kind of point discussing the motives and validity of our actions, as well the boundaries.

Weak argument? I don't see you replying any of the arguments I posted about NOT been illegal for me to download a copy of an anime that has been aired on the open TV, that looks more NO argument to me, so you simple ignore what you cannot reply and then come and tell I have a wear argument because I didn't reply to yours? I am a fan of discussions, so please discuss and do not avoid =p

Please dont come, again, quoting conventions, treaties and laws, we are all aware of that, we might not know the "law number/paragraph" but we knopw that. We are - as I see it - discussing their boundaries and validities, and how one cannot oblige to each and every law one. If we did, MT would actually have to shut down.

p.s. btw ad homin have the same validity as analogies, as you like it, and only when they actualliy hit something that people actually botters, dakara, looks like that hit something ;)

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damn it's still down. this is my main resource for fansubs. :(

Quote by CaiobrzI don't see where we are having a nice discussion, when you reply for each and every argument with the obvious answer we are all outlaws. Yes we are, as ilanka posted, so thats BEYOND the point.

I'll admit that there are some cases where I used the word you in the general sence. I shouldn't have used it since it is easy to confuse it with the singular you (aka that I'm accusing you.) For that I'm sorry, I'll be more carefull.

Quote by Caiobrz"You won't enter a bar and start discussing if they are are you?" So, we here are all - in a way - out laws - so there is NO point discussing WE and ratter there is some kind of point discussing the motives and validity of our actions, as well the boundaries.

You are the one who is bringing the discussion to me rather than the issues.

Quote by CaiobrzWeak argument? I don't see you replying any of the arguments I posted about NOT been illegal for me to download a copy of an anime that has been aired on the open TV, that looks more NO argument to me, so you simple ignore what you cannot reply and then come and tell I have a wear argument because I didn't reply to yours? I am a fan of discussions, so please discuss and do not avoid =p

I didn't need to. ilanka did that for me.

Quote by CaiobrzPlease dont come, again, quoting conventions, treaties and laws, we are all aware of that, we might not know the "law number/paragraph" but we knopw that. We are - as I see it - discussing their boundaries and validities, and how one cannot oblige to each and every law one. If we did, MT would actually have to shut down.

So you're saying that I shouldn't use hard facts? That's the basis for any good debate and using raw statistics is a vital part of my style of debate.

Quote by Caiobrzp.s. btw ad homin have the same validity as analogies, as you like it, and only when they actualliy hit something that people actually botters, dakara, looks like that hit something ;)

Ad hominin is never a valid way to argue. That is why it is known as a fallicy of logic.
Here's a discription of Ad hominin and why it is invalid.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/personal-attack.html

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a book should be written about this shiz lol anyways gonna miss anime.mircx.com

Caiobrz

Caiobrz

Wispy

Quote: I didn't need to. ilanka did that for me.

Er ... no ... Ilanka only pointed out about what I said about the "quest", the rest of my post (#66) is still left unanswerd, specially the part where I state and now I restate that downloading copyrighted material that you already legally own (i.e. something that aired on open channel or on a cable channel you own) is NOT illegal.

Quote: So you're saying that I shouldn't use hard facts? That's the basis for any good debate and using raw statistics is a vital part of my style of debate.

You are smart, you know that if we are going to use hard facts there is no point discussing are there? By the "hard facts" we are all outlaws, and there is no scapping, so why botter discuss it here? So, to me, it's useless to use them, since so far as I was concerned and interested, the point was to get to level at "it's outlaw but we can't do anything about it" or "it's outlaw but only a loony would pay THAT for so little".

Quote: Ad hominin is never a valid way to argue. That is why it is known as a fallicy of logic.

Ok then sorry, though there were no real pun intented saying you were on a spree to get us into jail =p

And yes, "you" can be quite ambiguous at times.

p.s.: when you quote my "when you enter a bar", there is a missing word, are you using some kind of word filter? That little word made the whole difference so if you are you missed the point (which looks like). Original quote was: "You won't enter a G-A-Y bar and start discussing if they are G-A-Y are you?"

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Quote by CaiobrzEr ... no ... Ilanka only pointed out about what I said about the "quest", the rest of my post (#66) is still left unanswerd, specially the part where I state and now I restate that downloading copyrighted material that you already legally own (i.e. something that aired on open channel or on a cable channel you own) is NOT illegal.

Article Nine of the Berne Convention states that only the author (or those he sells his rights to) can make copies of the work. Article Ten states that you can make quotations from written work only if you give the author credit. Nope, I don't see anyware that says you can make a copy for your own use.

Quote by CaiobrzYou are smart, you know that if we are going to use hard facts there is no point discussing are there? By the "hard facts" we are all outlaws, and there is no scapping, so why botter discuss it here? So, to me, it's useless to use them, since so far as I was concerned and interested, the point was to get to level at "it's outlaw but we can't do anything about it" or "it's outlaw but only a loony would pay THAT for so little".

Some people think that people who download anime are not doing anything illegel. If you reread the thread you will see that some of them posted in here. Those are the people that I'm arguing with. You and I seem to be in agreement on whether it is illegal so that's what I was working for. Now a debate on whether it is moral is compleatly different.


Quote by Caiobrzp.s.: when you quote my "when you enter a bar", there is a missing word, are you using some kind of word filter? That little word made the whole difference so if you are you missed the point (which looks like). Original quote was: "You won't enter a G-A-Y bar and start discussing if they are G-A-Y are you?"

Yes there is a word filter on this computer. I have turned it off now.

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Quote by Nitro_2985

Article Nine of the Berne Convention states that only the author (or those he sells his rights to) can make copies of the work. Article Ten states that you can make quotations from written work only if you give the author credit. Nope, I don't see anyware that says you can make a copy for your own use.

It's my understanding, that although there is no specific mention of allowance of personal backups, it is common practice to allow this under fair use. It was interesting to listen to a radio discussion of this, where an..er...anti-advocate [for lack of better term] actually -whined- that it didn't say anywhere that we could do any such thing, but was later forced to admit that it's allowed.

Quote by Nitro_2985
Some people think that people who download anime are not doing anything illegel. If you reread the thread you will see that some of them posted in here. Those are the people that I'm arguing with. You and I seem to be in agreement on whether it is illegal so that's what I was working for. Now a debate on whether it is moral is compleatly different.


I was going to make that point but you beat me to it =)

As an aside, Cai [edit: and Nitro, since it really does apply to both of you], one shouldn't debate sheerly on straight fact or straight opinion alone. Facts, while they tend to be black and white, can lend some sharpness to the grey areas we really want to discuss. Likewise, without grey areas, there would be no use for courts and discussion in general. Balance is our friend =)

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my guy: my life would be complete with rapid weight loss and larger breasts.
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Taurec

Taurec

BAKA^2

Some people think that people who download anime are not doing anything illegel

According to dutch court it's not illegal. <g>

- Too bad stupidity isn't painful

Airrrrrrr

Quote by TaurecAccording to dutch court it&#39;s not illegal. <g>


This is starting to get tireing... Restating the same things over and over.
http://www.adamsadams.co.za/home.asp?pid=59
The netherlands are on that list and thus are bound by it. It doesn't matter what the courts in netherland say since an international court would try the case.

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Caiobrz

Caiobrz

Wispy

Quote: Article Nine of the Berne Convention states that only the author (or those he sells his rights to) can make copies of the work. Article Ten states that you can make quotations from written work only if you give the author credit. Nope, I don't see anyware that says you can make a copy for your own use.

That's where there is a catch. That's what the law says, however, its UP TO THE STUDIO rather to sue you or not. Law enforcers CANNOT sue over passive piracy, only active piracy. Meaning. If they get you uploading, you are active, so they don't even need to check with the studios, that's illegal so you are busted. However, if they find a copy of a title at your home, they have to check with the studio what to do: Did the studio allow users to have a copy of their works?

Obviously, if one proves you never paid for it, one don't need to check with the studios.

And here it is:

Most studios ALLOW you to make a personal copies for your own purpouses. And I bet you can see that for yourself, you probably have a DVD or a VHS home. Play it. All of them have a WARNING at the beggining. There they state that you can have a copy of such work for your personal use (and please do remember that the "original" VHS/DVD IS a copy of the work) as long as it's for YOU, no distributing, airing, etc...

We get here to the point of Intelectual Rights (I don't know the proper name on english, please correct me). It states that a movie, anime, or whatever abstract work is copyrighted, NOT it's copy. Meaning, when you buy a DVD what you are actually buying are 2 things: First, and that's most of the price, is the RIGHT to have it, and second, the phisical medium on which that work (movie/anime/whatever) is COPYED into so you have what you paid for. If your DVD breaks and you ask for a replacement, they will cover only that medium ($2~3)

Same with works that air on TV or cable. You pay (cable ... on open TV the TV studio paid) for the rights, and you get that from the air/cable (nor recorded). It's perfectly legal that you put a VCR on, record it, and store it.

I guess we all here already recorded something on our VCR's. I once recorded all SG-1 episodes as they aired on MGM 'cause I love that show.

I'm not doing anything illegal by that.

So my point is, and please do not get me wrong I'm by no means saying anyone can do it, nor with any title: if you record an anime using tour VCR as it airs on your favourite channel, that copy is not illegal. It's a passive piracy, and passive causes are up to the owner of the intelectual right, and all studios allow you to do that.

That's why I said that if I download something that I ALREADY have, it's not illegal. Obviously, if I upload, that's illegal, so I cannot say I'm ok to download something that I have using BT, since as you remembered, it auto-uploads.

Simple example: I recorded SG-1 on my VCR from cable ... the tapes got old, I decided to go and download the episodes and record them on CD. I am not doing anything illegal AS LONG as I didn't upload (la la la >_> la >_> la la >_>)

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Now to destroy that massive post with just a three sentences...
Intelectual Property Rights referr to the rights of the creators not of the consumers... It also grants protection to all copies of the origional. Why would anyone apply for a patent if only the master copy was protected?
http://www.itds.treas.gov/ipr.html

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Caiobrz

Caiobrz

Wispy

I wonder where that is not ad homin huh? I fell destroyed ... or NOT ..

You are too biased on laws. So let me destroy your argument using that itself shall we?

So let me remember you of a basic precept of all Intelectual Property Rights (thanks for the correction): The rights are OF THE CREATORS (oh thank you), and it's THEIR right to CHOOSE either to sue you or not.

If I make a wallpaper, MY wallpaper, 100% my work, and then I add the following single line: "This wallpaper is free, you can use anywhere, you can distribute it as you want"

Yes, you are right, http://www.itds.treas.gov/ipr.html will tell that I have all the rights over it but guess what ... I allowed anyone to use/copy/distribute it, so http://www.itds.treas.gov/ipr.html is completelly and utterly useless ... UNTIL I choose to drop that and say "ok, from now on, no copies allowed".

the creator of the work have the right to choose not to restrict them by intelectual rights. That's the same, if the studios stated, and you didn't even bothered to get a VHR and watch it for yourself, that I DO CAN have a copy, ... then ... I DO CAN have a copy.

Nitro_2985. Things are not black or white, they have shades you know?

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Quote by CaiobrzIf I make a wallpaper, MY wallpaper, 100% my work, and then I add the following single line: "This wallpaper is free, you can use anywhere, you can distribute it as you want"

Yes, you are right, http://www.itds.treas.gov/ipr.html will tell that I have all the rights over it but guess what ... I allowed anyone to use/copy/distribute it, so http://www.itds.treas.gov/ipr.html is completelly and utterly useless ... UNTIL I choose to drop that and say "ok, from now on, no copies allowed".

If you didn't go through the formal process of copyrighting it you would have no right to stop people from using it.

And the government can charge someone with a crime if they violate copyright law or treaties. The origional creator doesn't have to do anything.

Now I must prepare for work so if you'll excuse me...
*puts on Burger King outfit*
I must be going!

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Caiobrz

Caiobrz

Wispy

Quote: And the government can charge someone with a crime if they violate copyright law or treaties. The origional creator doesn't have to do anything

Yes you are right, that's why I said one must clearly state that is ALLOWING the users to copy it, because the standard behaviour of law enforcers are to acknowledge you did'nt. That's why I said you should watch a VHS/DVD ... it's there ;)

About recording aired shows, it's also allowed, no government will sue you from recording something out from the TV, actually never happened ;)

Burger King o.O; Nah I like McDonalds best <_<

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Quote by Nitro_2985

If you didn&#39;t go through the formal process of copyrighting it you would have no right to stop people from using it.


I think there's a passive copyright law [too lazy right now to look it up] that protects all original works, should the creator care to press it. I had an issue some years back with someone claiming my stuff as theirs [fanfics, created characters, role play persona - that's right, they were role playing, online, as me. Even signing emails as me/my character @_@ ], and I remember running across it. But it's been too long to remember the details. Something worth looking into, should you care to persue it further.

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my guy: my life would be complete with rapid weight loss and larger breasts.
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Caiobrz

Caiobrz

Wispy

Quote: I think there's a passive copyright law

That makes sence, after all the laws (most often) will favour the copyright holder. Actually all "rights" that one would need to pursue/register, do tend to be available even if you don't after some time. For instance, even if you do not marry, if you live with a person for some time (in Brasil, 6 monthes) you will be treated as a married couple by law.

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Quote by Caiobrz

Quote: I think there&#39;s a passive copyright law

That makes sence, after all the laws (most often) will favour the copyright holder. Actually all &quot;rights&quot; that one would need to pursue/register, do tend to be available even if you don&#39;t after some time. For instance, even if you do not marry, if you live with a person for some time (in Brasil, 6 monthes) you will be treated as a married couple by law.

Exactly. Another example are the "copyright" notices on nearly all websites. I imagine no one filed copyright on their website design, but they fall under automatic protection anyway. [the "common-law marriage" was an interesting example =) Here in the US, I think it's 5 or 10 years, or something. We like our indecision ^_~]

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my guy: my life would be complete with rapid weight loss and larger breasts.
me: boobs on a stick! boobs on a stick!

WAH?!?! no more full metal alchemist?! i can't buy! i'm poor! T-T!

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Caiobrz

Caiobrz

Wispy

Quote: the "common-law marriage" was an interesting example Here in the US, I think it's 5 or 10 years, or something. We like our indecision ^_~

Yeah, here was 3 years until recently, don't know why they changed to 6 monthes. I think it's too short too.

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Quote by ilankaI think there's a passive copyright law [too lazy right now to look it up] that protects all original works, should the creator care to press it.

You should not bring new arguments into a debate without any information backing it up. All I have to say is, "where did you get your information?"

So, without further ado, "Where did you get your infromation?"


Quote by CaiobrzYes you are right, that's why I said one must clearly state that is ALLOWING the users to copy it, because the standard behaviour of law enforcers are to acknowledge you did'nt. That's why I said you should watch a VHS/DVD ... it's there ;)

About recording aired shows, it's also allowed, no government will sue you from recording something out from the TV, actually never happened ;)

But the point of this is not whether it will be enforced, but if it is, infact, illegal. You have conceded this point. Therefore I have won this debate with you. Now if you want to debate enforcabilty or morality, I'd be happy to do so now that we both agree that it is ilegal.

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So much legalize....@@X

Caiobrz

Caiobrz

Wispy

Quote: Therefore I have won this debate with you

LMAO. Didn't know it was a fight, guess you were not having fun ;)

ok you won.

note: we already agreed it was illegal some 2 pages ago.

no,I don't want to debate the enforcability or morality of that, it's pointless, there are no laws or berne convention to teach us that, and each person and each company will regard subjects on their way so anything we say here will be pure especulation on how one should act, or how one company would act. THAT discussion would be really pointless, so I guess we better settle here.

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Quote by Caiobrzno,I don&#39;t want to debate the enforcability or morality of that, it&#39;s pointless, there are no laws or berne convention to teach us that, and each person and each company will regard subjects on their way so anything we say here will be pure especulation on how one should act, or how one company would act. THAT discussion would be really pointless, so I guess we better settle here.

That sound's good. It was a pleasuer debating with you.

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I understand ADV and other companies want to make a profit for all the series that they have licened but if it were not for fansubs of certain series I probably would not be purchasing many titles. I'm the type of person that says I'll try it(in this case watching a fansub) and if I like it I'll buy it. If I never saw Azumanga Daioh online I never would have even bothered looking at it to begin with. And one more thing! All you (!@#$%&*) companies stop being cheap in the way you release your titles, keep it up and I'll wait for the bootleg of the entire series!!!

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