US in China's business

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Holt

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I've been following the current problems between US, China, Taiwan and North Korea and I just read this article
Basically, China says Taiwan is part of China and is trying to get them back whilst the US sides with Taiwan and provides them with weapons etc.
Meanwhile, the EU is thinking of lifting arms embargoes on China so China's military technology can develope and oh course, the US is against China getting stronger so they want the embargo to stay.
And at the same time, the US doesn't want NK to have nuclear weapons so they want China to cut them off from essential resources like rice and such to collapse the NK economy.

Now, what the hell is this? The US is doing all they can to try and make China weaker and increase it's foothold in the area (by getting the support of Taiwan probably so they can build another Air/Naval base :hmpf: ) and then they have the nerve to ask China to help them in stopping another country from getting power?
I agree that the fewer nukes the better, but who made the US the deciders of who gets power and who doesn't? The nerve of that idiot president really pisses me off. >=(

What does everyone else think?

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Iyasis

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Admittedly, politically news just flies over my head and although I read the entire article, I'm still confused >.> But after reading your summary and take on it (which made much more sense to me ^^) I think I have some grasp on the issue at hand.

I hadn't known that the EU had embargos on China, but it is rather stupid and hypocritical that the US wants to keep the embargo intact and thereby inhibiting the growth of China's miliatary technology. Look at US's military technology - is anybody trying to stop them? And with North Korean, I agree (and hope) that the nuclear weapons are destroyed, but it annoys me how the US approaches the issue by enlisting the help of China, not to mention how ironic that is as well.

Although the US is currently the world's "dominating power country", I think that the government is too controlling in international issues. It's important that they have input, but not to the extend that they have so much influence in international decisions. Also, the government seems to be a bit conceited and rather full of itself and their current power. However, that power is not eternal. Evenutally another country will emerge as the world's dominating power country, maybe not in our lifetime, but it will eventually happen. Just look back at history, the Romans, the British, all were indisputably the conquering empires of their time. Although their eras were indeed powerful, they did not last forever.

Now, going back on topic ^^"........... I agree with you on these issuses Holt: that countries such as China should be allowed to further and develop their military technology (to a certain safe degree, of course) and also that the US should be less stubborn and not intefere too much into international political issues. I remember once that the US government went against the United Nations - you don't do that! >.>

Last thing, I by no means intend direct offence to any Americans here. It's the government and policies that I have a turf with, not the people (^^)v

  • Mar 20, 2005

Holt

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Quote by IyasisLast thing, I by no means intend direct offence to any Americans here. It's the government and policies that I have a turf with, not the people (^^)v


That's a good point :x
disclaimer: This thread is in no way, shape or form directed against the American public in general. It is hoever, in every way, shape and form directed against Bush XD

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XavierCrow

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Hmph, never ending, is it? Hmm... frankly, I think it'd be a good thing for North Korea not to have hold of Nuclear Armanents, but I don't think it's a good idea that anyone has nuclear arms. A united decision against North Korea is a good idea... but America's just being really dumb about it. Taiwan should be a country to itself, but then again, being part of a larger country could really help it's economy... Taiwan isn't a war-like country at this stage... maybe supplying them with weapons is asking for trouble. Defending Taiwan is fine, but the situation is thrown into rediculous proportions when America asks for China's cooperation. China's a large and powerful country and America needs to be more careful about throwing it's weight around like it has been recently. Basically, if America wants North Korea to have no nukes, then it'll have to do it on it's own or allow china to grow in military power... personally, I'd opt for the first... not because I support everything America does, but because the last thing we need is another super-power, itching to show it's might. The embargo should stick, Taiwan should be left alone and America should fight it's own battles. We don't need another world war. The idea of these countries getting into a battle is terrifieng.

Thanks for the info Holt.

In the end, all there is, is what exists and what we believe or perceive is true... and there's no distinctions between the two.
- Myself

  • Mar 20, 2005

Holt

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You make good points Xavier.
I guess you're right in that if China does one day become as technologically advanced in military power as America, the same thing will probably happen. I never thought of it like that before.
I guess in an ideal world, there would be no nukes and no super powers picking fights all over the place :sweat:

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sirhenry

The Other White Meat

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I think everyone in the world originally thought that fighting was bad. Anyone who disliked fighting, disliked weapons, disliked war, and disliked conflict altogether. We were all children at once, and so we all wanted peace and joy etc. The problem with that is man's innate desire for land and power. This is called the territorial imperitive. When threatened by an outside force, man wishes to protect his land by destroying that force; it is a product of fear. So, since all men fear in one way or another each other, they will always be trying to destroy one another. No one wants nukes, they only want to protect themselves. No one wants to be in anyone else's affairs, unless those affairs could possibly come about to affect them. There is no resolution to such conflict, and chances are that America will continue on this path until it is destroyed by a conglomeration of several countries. This is coming from a 17 yr. old who hardly watches the news. Why can't the world realize it's stupidity?

We are not judged by our intentions, but by the way in which others interpret our actions.

  • Mar 20, 2005

kai81220

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i think the US should deal with its own problems before it starts interferring with other countries. im not even talking about the iraq war but funds for its own people and health care and stuff like that. the US should just let things take there own course and see what would happen instead of going in to resolve the problems themselves. how can they expect that they would be able to deal with the problem better than anyone else. it seems that the US feels that they are the only people capable of dealing with world issues while the rest of us are completely ignorant. i dont know how accurate canadian history classes are but it mentioned that the US had an ambition that they had the rights to all land or something like that. if anything, they help other peoples having other motives as well. they probably would assist if there was no personal gain for them. i think they should just leave people in peace and deal with internal problems first.

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Ayamael

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ok... i'm ashamed to admit that i understand absolutely nothing about politics... and thanks for the resume Holt... i would have needed hours to get the article OX (ok, not that much, but i have enough of a hard time understanding those in French, so in English t_t... )

well... i can't say much about it... (how i'll say a lot but it probably won't make any sense, or will be off topic, gomen T_T)

i hope, someday, the US will find the virtues of minding their own business.. i agree with kai81220 that they should start taking care of their own people before getting their noses where it doesn't belong... with the number of homeless people they have, the sick people who can't afford medical care and so on...

Other point, it's by trying to control other people's lives that you attract their hatred... and the more you attract hatred the more you have to fear terrorists attacks for exemple... basically, it's a viscious circle ~_~ and they don't want to be attacked on their land, they get mad because people died during the 9/11 attacks, and what's the 1st thing they do? go strait to those countries and do exactly the same to their people... what gives them the right to consider those countries "terrorists" and themselves "saviours"?? i don't get it... and no wonder they fear North Korea now... and China getting a significant military power as well...

now, i don't agree with NK getting nuclear weapons either, don,t get me wrong, no country should have the right to get those... but, the the economy of NK crashing won,t extend be only catastrophic to the government, but to the people as well, those people who need to eat like anyone else...

it would be nice to live in a world where weapons don't exist at all, ne... but that world will never happen, and there will always be people, as sirhenry said, that will look for wars out of fear of losing something, or for territory expansion... it's just something we have to live with... unfortunately...

again, this is directed at the government, not the people of America... ^^

Keiichi-K1

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i havent had time to read all the replies above.
But i think the US should F#cking mind its own business!
Taiwan is a part of China, it became a renegade state when the chinese civil war ended and the nationalists retreated to the island of Taiwan. That war is now over and the ruling side of China have won, it's time that Taiwan accepts that!
With regard to the build up of military power of China, China is just strengthening its defenses. this is because in the past China has been a victim of wars from agressors which brought it down from being the most advanced nation in the world. China is merely protecting itself from history repeating itself. China is now naturally reclaiming its position in the world had it not been for the colonisations and wars in the past.

XavierCrow

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It's been said before (I'm not sure who by), that the individual man is intelligent, but a crowd of a hundred is ignorant and easily lead to violance (or something like that). The same could be said about any government, so I don't trust any country to have nuclear arms, for whatever their reasons. For example, a person can be given a gun to study it's making, but there's no guarantee that he or she will not use it. Just thought I should mention that.

I suppose I have to make the point, that here we are conversing and debating the situation... I wonder if we had the power to make an impact on the situation,(like America and China have) would we do it? People would say, "well at the end of day, it doesn't affect you"... but I really believe it does... I mean... is it just me, or does the world seem to get smaller every day? :\

In the end, all there is, is what exists and what we believe or perceive is true... and there's no distinctions between the two.
- Myself

  • Mar 21, 2005
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It's funny how everyone tries so hard to be "isolationist." It has never worked in the history of the United States; all trying to stay out of major international disputes ever did was get the country into war at the time of the enemies' choosing. This is not exclusive to the United States, either.

Slightly preceding World War II, Britain and France did exactly what most of you seem to want the United States to do - "mind your own business," "let rival nations militarize," and so forth. We all know what the result of that was. What makes you think that something similar is not going to happen again?

XavierCrow

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Quote by Rebel428It's funny how everyone tries so hard to be "isolationist." It has
never worked in the history of the United States; all trying to stay
out of major international disputes ever did was get the country into
war at the time of the enemies' choosing. This is not exclusive to the
United States, either. Slightly preceding World War II, Britain and
France did exactly what most of you seem to want the United States to
do - "mind your own business," "let rival nations militarize," and so
forth. We all know what the result of that was. What makes you think
that something similar is not going to happen again?

Uh, yeah! That's what I was saying. XP

In the end, all there is, is what exists and what we believe or perceive is true... and there's no distinctions between the two.
- Myself

  • Mar 21, 2005
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Glad we're on the same page, then. ^_^

I do agree with your comment that the world grows smaller every day, in a sense. However, that doesn't mean that old historical lessons won't apply. Others mentioned that the United States might end up like the Roman and British empires of old. While it is probably an inevitability, the superpower status of the United States can definitely be prolonged by seeing what caused the downfalls of those empires and not repeating the same mistakes. Ignoring the outside world seems to be one of those mistakes :)

XavierCrow

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Indeed... for some reason governments seem to ignore the golden rule of "learn from mistakes". It's said by some famous philosopher (can't be that famous if I don't know who he is! XD) that "History always repeats itself". I just don't want to see the world getting into trouble again over another country having a strong military and an itchy trigger-finger... the world seems to watch in fear as the U.S. makes it's moves... we don't need another superpower.

In the end, all there is, is what exists and what we believe or perceive is true... and there's no distinctions between the two.
- Myself

  • Mar 21, 2005
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Heh, I wouldn't exactly call the individual man intelligent, have you tried talking to some lately? Some survey said that ~20% of Americans still believe that the Earth revolves around the sun once a day and some ~10% believe the sun revolves around the Earth. I don't remember the exact numbers, but the numbers I stated are really close. But whatever the case, that's scary.

Back on topic, the US has its interests in mind, anyone in their position would want to remain the world's sole superpower, who wouldn't? Until the UN has a real army, this is the way of international politics. However, I don't believe the US can push very hard if China decides Taiwan went too far, I mean, what can the government do? Send the 7th Fleet and lose (and yes, every moment that passes, the chance that the US will lose anyway even if they "do whatever it takes" goes up)?

  • Mar 21, 2005

Holt

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The sun doesn't revolve around the Earth? Really? o_0 Just kidding. I knew that. I swear ^_^'
Rebel, you assume that WW2 was all the evil German Nazi's fault. But look at it this way.

After WW1, the league of nations was formed and Germany was forced into complete economic destruction.
The reason the extremist Nazi's came to power was due to the circumstances of the time. The German people were looking for new leadership which would turn them around from depression, thanks to the harsh measures of the LoN. Hitler's party took advantage of this and encouraged the feeling of hate towards the countries that made Germany so poor.
Thus, Hitler came to bring about WW2.
The US provided most of Iraq's weapons in order to fight the communist USSR around the time of the cold war. Now they end up enemies with their past allies.
They provide weapons to Taiwan to fight the communist China. Anyone see a pattern here?

You also say the superpowers shouldn't let rival superpowers surface to prevent wars. Didn't the so called superpower militarize to become a superpower? Who decides which countries get to militarize and who doesn't? I'm not saying China should be dominant but how come the US gets to build military bases in every corner of the world and keep all the nukes?

The two nukes dropped on Japan were just as brutal as Hitler. Yet we're not taught much about the suffering of Japan thanks to that.
We need to remember that it is the winners of the wars that decide what is written down in history and who the people of the future view as right and wrong.

I'm in no way challenging anyone's opinions. Everyone's entitled their own and I won't pretend to be an expert in politics. Please correct me if I'm wrong in any of my "facts".

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Celessa

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Quote by HoltThe two nukes dropped on Japan were just as brutal as Hitler. Yet we're
not taught much about the suffering of Japan thanks to that.

A little off topic, but I think that using nukes is not the absolute solution to killing hundreds of thousands of people. Will they ever understand how many people were hurt? Heck no. It's very one-sided in the view of topic on the course of history - if you have been on the other side of the table looking elsewhere, you would sense something wrong going on behind the scenes. It's always about being patriotic towards one country, in a sense.

I may not be even close to being Japanese though I live there and speak the language, but its true to an extent that the US really hated them so badly just like Hitler hated towards a certain type of race back then. Nuking them finally snapped them out of the hatred phase - and they declared it would be the last bomb to be released - as in ever against another country. How far should one country go towards this sort of stinging prejudice? Sure, the countries change over time - new allies and old enemies are to be made - but never overpower a country just because you are far more powerful than theirs that they should accept whatever you say out of fear that their heads are next on the chopping block. That would be unwise and would make them just as bad as bullies, really. The removal for nukes is fine, but like Holt said, that is it right that the US still have the right to hold their own nukes while taking out others, really and building military bases all over the world just to control and prevent them from growing in power? That sort of mindsetting seems to me that they want world domination in their own particular sort of way - to me, any sort of nation holding military power is considered dangerous - but a nation holding and even developing nukes is far more deadly indeed.

"No matter where you go, no matter how tough life may be, just remember that always in your heart, you will still be loved."

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Holt

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Quote by CelessaIt's always about being patriotic towards one country, in a sense.

I'd have to admit that probably applies to me too. I'd normally always side with my country on politics since I'm chinese. So really that makes me biased. I guess all we can do is rely on others who see the big picture to set us right ^_^'

Your last point makes me think Celessa. I wonder what even newer devastating weapons the superpowers of our world are developing even now. Some sort of orbital bombardment platform like in the movies? Because you can rest assured new, more accurate and more deadly weapons will be constantly getting invented although I hope they don't invent something that can exceed even the nuclear and hydrogen bombs' mass destructive power -_-

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DarkSavior

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Interesting topic ^^ I agee with most of what everyone said. I never liked the way the US thinks. Though their intentions I believe are good. I'm being from America have always try to think out side the box. Anyway... I guess Celessa is back ^^ ( nice to see you again )

I'd rather be hated for who I am rather than loved for who I pretend to be...

  • Mar 21, 2005

Celessa

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Quote by Holt

Quote by CelessaIt's always about being patriotic towards one country,
in a sense.

I'd have to admit that probably applies to me too.
I'd normally always side with my country on politics since I'm chinese.
So really that makes me biased. I guess all we can do is rely on others
who see the big picture to set us right ^_^'

Is that so? I'm so sorry to hear that - sensing you hate Bush and his affairs in his China - I suppose it happens. lol - But you aren't the only one who thinks Bush is losing it - I'll totally agree there. I'm one of the many as well who never liked the way he ran his campaign - but its been done already, so I can't complain - aside from the fact that now he's doing it for four more years. Ayaya!

I actually have a friend there in China as we speak and she's Cantonese, but she's one of the friendliest people I've ever met online and we actually did meet once a while ago when I was in Japan at that time - so it was nice having her around. How does that relate to the topic, though? She pretty much is biased in the sense that she finds everything that the US is doing is kind of wrong after the 9/11 incident - though she sees it from everyone's perspective here. I'm probably betting any money on the fact that she's complaining about this issue you brought up Holt, as we speak - she's always been doing that quite often around here. I know she doesn't mean bad intentions towards bad-mouthing them, but how would you feel if some nation starts walking in with powers beyond your control, then setting up an army to surround your perimeter, telling you what to do? I wouldn't like it if they'd set up barracks all over the world and build up a small fort over there which can easily be accessed within a matter of minutes and within reasonable attack range as well - that's pretty scary in a sense - so I'm sure she has some right to complain. Let's just hope the US isn't getting too carried away. I hate it when they change stories and get away with their true intentions that they said they would carry out. Scary, nonetheless.

Quote by DarkSaviorI'm being from America have always try to think out side the box.
Anyway... I guess Celessa is back ^^ ( nice to see you again )

Good for you! Hey! Nice to see you again - and yes, I'm back - just not as much. Time For Spring Break! ROFL - I gotta come by and say hello. It's been a while. lol

"No matter where you go, no matter how tough life may be, just remember that always in your heart, you will still be loved."

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Auraeliah

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America and China have an alliance, I don't think that either country will be warring anytime soon. Even though China is rapidly advancing, there is no reason for America to work against China, supporting an alliance only makes sense.
Any disputes over nuclear weapons is because the United Nations has a worldwide regulation on producing nuclear arms. Any country that tries to deter a power from producing fission or fusion bombs is only aiding in upholding a law that applies to everyone. Hopefully. America did drop two nuclear bombs on Japan to end wwii, actually President Truman decided the bombs would end the war in order to save lives (however retarded that seems now). Also in retaliation of Pearl Harbor, emotions interfere with logical decisions. I did learn this in an american history course (American faults in history are taught as well as Patriotism), there are hibakusha (victims of radiation) still in Japan as well as America. The American government tested nuclear bombs in the atmosphere, as well as underground, until scientists figured out how the aftermath (radiation) has a half life of like 500 years. Also, other countries tested nuclear bombs around that time and now the winds carry radiation around the world. So everyone shares a little in that misfortune.
As for America helping out other countries, some might see it as being pushy, but I don't think that the means should take away from the ends in this case. Help is help. Aid is aid. America provides aid to tsunami victims today, once helped stop Natzis from acts of genecide towards Jews, and sends medical help to Africa to help stop the AIDS epidemic. Other countries have worldwide organizations, as well, Japan aids hibakusha all over the world. I admire countries helping people when they are not obligated to do so.
No one is perfect, so no country is perfect. I didn't elect Bush to office, I am not allowed to vote yet. I don't like the current president, but I support worldwide aid. Politics is always involved between countries, and I know that many people hate Americans. Mostly everyone, I've heard. Anyways, I probably should research more into current policies before writing so much. This is only my opinion, and I AM only 17, so I only know what I have read or been told.

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  • Mar 21, 2005
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Man... as a Chinese... no <ahem> offense... but I really hate the president of Taiwan's guts. That man wants Taiwan to be independent, that was really what the argument is about. If they want to be independent, then go ahead, stop stealing China's land, language, writing, governing, culture and religon. And trade (ah ha they'll be so dead). The president said China is threatening Taiwanese, but hey, they did too. 2 years ago they threatens to bomb Shanghai. Of course Chinese were laughing their heads off. Don't get the irony? There are 64 thousand Taiwanese in Shanghai... man the president is such an airhead. Also he wants Taiwanese to ditch their ansestors... and ansestors is the most important thing to... Chinese... and Taiwanese... since they were Chinese a long time ago. Aww if Taiwan really get independent, the world would see them diffrently.

Ok... back to U.S. Taiwan bought soo many military weopons even Bush called him ' Son of a b****'... still don't get why Bush helps Taiwan. There will not be a war, since Taiwanese know that they can't defeat the Chinese. But what is interesting is that Russia take the side of China this time, oppisite of u.s.a. They've never done that before. Two most powerful countries going aginst each other... the war will be ugly.

But then again. I'll in Canada, the land of peace. I'll be crossing my fingers hoping there won't be a World War 3.

I'm Chinese and Im 13... so... I only know the Chinese's point of view. But I don't know why, every time I go to America I hear diffrent stories than the ones I hear from Chinese. Gusse no one will own the truth (But you can own the DVD ^^) lol I wonder how Bush got his job with almost every theater in the world is showing how he is unfit for that job^^

  • Mar 21, 2005

Holt

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Quote by AuraeliahI know that many people hate Americans. Mostly everyone, I've heard.

I think you're taking it a bit far there. No sensible people hate Americans, everyone hates Bush

Quote by ChaosXAngelBut what is interesting is that Russia take the side of China this time, oppisite of u.s.a. They've never done that before.

I always thought Russia and China got on really well. :x

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Quote: I always thought Russia and China got on really well. :x

What I meant was U.S is at Taiwan's side and Russia is at China's side. They do get along (China X Russia) Russia was always the same side as U.S. This is the first time Russia don't agree on U.S's opions

  • Mar 22, 2005

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