Quote by HoltI'm afraid I can't agree which such a one sided pro US argument with
clear ignorance of certain very important facts. Call me pro China if
you will but I want to present a counter argument and maybe tell you
some "facts" (I hesitate to call them facts because I can't guarantee
the trustworthiness of the UK media either) you may not have been told
in the US.
Where to begin...
You're prefectly right that in WW1 and 2 all countries needed to step
in and stop the offending army. But comparing that to the situation
between China and Taiwan is far from fair. I'm pretty sure the Chinese
government doesn't want to wipe out a whole religion and take over the
world. It's completely different.
How is it completely different? Same exact situation, they were just taking back
a small nation that they had a marginal claim to then also... Oh wait! That's right, that little change turned
into a much, much bigger one. ...I remember now... ...Lessee... I think that nation was Czechoslovakia...?
Quote by Holt
You also imply that China would be "enslaving" Taiwan. Now that's just wrong.
OK... ...Well Holt, in your vast wisdom, why would China want Taiwan other than to take ownership of what Taiwan has to offer. ...If they weren't going to leech off Taiwan somehow, they wouldn't care. They wouldn't have reason to. ...Let's remember, it's not exactly China (with their short-range ballistic missiles) that is protecting Taiwan's national security...
Quote by Holt
I also find it hypocritical that you would believe your country is the
war stopper and only the "bad guys" go and invade other countries. What
happened in Vietnam? I believe that was something about trying to take
over the country merely because the US was afraid of the growing
influence of communism. You call that fighting for freedom? I don't. I
call it attempting to push your own political system on others
forcibly.
It's interesting that you bring up that conflict Holt. Did you know the French were there before the USA was? Did you? Ok. Well do you know why? ... Look it up. In spite of the horrors of that war for the USA and all involved, the protection and defense of South Vietnam was the subject of international intervention.
I will also add that the USA wasn't the only nation involved in Vietnam. North Vietnam was acting with significant support from both China and the ussr. I have trouble imagining why you would think it anything but a prudent action to help defend a non-aggressive, peaceful country from the wrath of martial expansionists, backed by two super-powers...
Quote by Holt
I'm also quite sure that alot of middle-eastern countries are thinking,
"Hey, they took out Afghanistan and Iraq. Maybe we're next!" Sure Al
Qaeda started it but how does that justify bombing an entire country
and replacing the government with one chosen by the US? Go in and take
out the terrorists if you must but leave the innocent civilians out of
it.
Holt... ...The government of Afghanistan was supportive of terrorists, and had sheltered and assisted actions subversive to the United States. Worse, the Taliban weren't the original government of Afghanistan. ...On the plus side though, the Taliban definitely kept the drug supply down in that country. ;) I don't know the full details as to why we went to Afghanistan. However, it had nothing to do with their predominant religion.
Nor is/was the matter with Iraq a religious issue. None of the middle-eastern countries have anything to fear from the US. (Unless they attack Israel, of course. ;) )
Quote by Holt
i guess you feel that any country run by a dictator must be horrible
full of corruption, violence and evil. Only democratic nations like the
US have happy people.
In general, I believe history has shown this to be the case... ...It's hard to argue with real life Holt... ...Philosophy and could-be's are nothing if they're wrong.
Quote by Holt
I can tell you that there are plenty of countries run by dictatorships
which are very well run. Some even better than the US. Take the UAE for
example. Very rich country. Very high GDP per capita. Very happy
people. 5 years ago no one had ever heard of the tiny country. Now the
city of Dubai is known for it's incredible hotels, shopping, sun,
beach, everything!
I've also wondered why you have billion or trillianairs in the US yet
there are so many poor people there. Perhaps the US should sort out
their own problems before they go sticking their noses in other's.
...Umm.... Poor people in the usa...? ....Not really Holt, no. Generally, systems are in place for folks that need help. We have homeless... ...But a very large percentage of the homeless in the USA have mental problems. ...It's a sad thing, but folks are trying to solve that too. In general, vast governmental, charitable and personal support is available to anyone who needs it in the USA. If you're poor, you can gain significant grants, etc. so you can go to college, and work for a better future. ...The USA is a wonderful place Holt. It's not perfect, but it seems that in the US, if you work hard for your future, you can succeed. ...Even if though it may be a really hard road to make it to success.
I know folks may have a hard life in the us... ...But at the same time, I'd rather be roughing it here than in any other country.
Quote by Holt
About the US action in Iraq, here's something I read recently in the
news. Over $1 million raised by the UN and trusted to the US to invest
into rebuilding Iraq has simply gone missing!
$1 Million, huh Holt? Do you have any clue how much the war in Iraq costs? That's nothing but fly ointment bud...
this war costs well over 160,000 fold more than that relatively small number. If that is the biggest thing they have
to worry about, they should feel lucky.
Quote by HoltOn top of that, inquiry
boards found that hundreds of million dollar deals were made with no
documentation, no infromation on what they were for and no evidence
that the contractors had done anything. Apparently incompetence was so
high that some contractors got paid twice for absolutely nothing.
Stuff happens. I'm reasonably sure that such mistakes will be sorted out as they happen. Nobody's perfect Holt. Certainly the two of us aren't either.
Quote by Holt
What's going on? So far the new runners of Iraq haven't been any less
corrupt and incompetent than Saddam.
Really...? I didn't know Iraq's new political figures were having personal castles built for themselves, or perhaps killing people they don't like? ...I'm surprised it has happened so soon Holt. Perhaps you would like to substantiate this?
Quote by Holt
Now the US as the world police. I thought you were all for democracy
and freedom. I don't remember any worldwide vote to let the US do
whatever the hell they want. I thought that's what the UN are for. A
representative of the world.
That IS what the UN is for Holt. Peaceful resolution. The USA tried to go through the UN. Things got too sticky for timely action. Personally, I wish that folks might have waited longer. However, when the UN requires inspection of possible WMD sites, and access is suddenly refused, that's not exactly going to lead anywhere peaceful. The USA wasn't going to repeat the mistakes learned from the regulation of Germany after World War I.
Quote by Holt
And if Bush's actions are unpopular, yet he does it anyway, how is that
any different to a dictatorship?
Umm... ...For one, he's an elected official, and the man this democratic republic selected to handle such decisions. Should we have a full vote for every little thing, progress would be virtually impossible. Look at how big of a mess it was with Florida. ...They almost didn't count the votes of servicewomen/men overseas in their rush... ...The US selected the man they felt was best for the job of the candidates available. He's a politician, and a leader. Not a dictator.
Quote by Holt
I must say that the Bush election campaign in the US must have been
very good because absolutely no one outside of the US can think of any
reason to keep Bush in office except that maybe the alternative was
even worse.
Incidentally, both Gore and Kerry probably would have been horribly worse. In spite of my contrasting views with the Democratic Party, it would be nice to see them put up someone worth voting for...
Quote by HoltI know I know, who cares what us foreigners think? He's
your president.
But I think that if your president is to be given the right to be the
police commisioner of the world so to speak, then the people of the
world should be the ones to vote him in.
No-one made him the police commissioner of the world. ....And the USA is not acting alone in its interventions either. The USA is just the bigger, and most apparent force in the world today.
Quote by Holt
If all us smaller countries are just meant to bow down to the US
judgement, I for one wouldn't call it freedom.
Um, okay Holt. ...Give me one nation here that is currently “bowing down� to the US? Iraq? Iraq now has selected their own leadership. The US remains in Iraq to help pick up the pieces following this violent transition.
Holt, people in Iraq are dying today for their freedom. ...People of Iraq are dying for their freedom. Did you not see the purple dye on their fingers after they voted? ...The Iraqis put took their lives in their hands when they went to vote. Some were blown up. ...Others stood in line waiting to vote while the pieces were cleaned up.
The people of Iraq wanted the US there. The people of Taiwan want the US there. I hope that this ongoing discussion is helping clarify the utter importance of the US in maintaining a share in the future of the world.