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US in China's business

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Archer79

Nerdly Ghost

Quote by HoltI'm afraid I can't agree which such a one sided pro US argument with
clear ignorance of certain very important facts. Call me pro China if
you will but I want to present a counter argument and maybe tell you
some "facts" (I hesitate to call them facts because I can't guarantee
the trustworthiness of the UK media either) you may not have been told
in the US.
Where to begin...
You're prefectly right that in WW1 and 2 all countries needed to step
in and stop the offending army. But comparing that to the situation
between China and Taiwan is far from fair. I'm pretty sure the Chinese
government doesn't want to wipe out a whole religion and take over the
world. It's completely different.


How is it completely different? Same exact situation, they were just taking back a small nation that they had a marginal claim to then also... Oh wait! That's right, that little change turned into a much, much bigger one. ...I remember now... ...Lessee... I think that nation was Czechoslovakia...?

Quote by Holt

You also imply that China would be "enslaving" Taiwan. Now that's just wrong.

OK... ...Well Holt, in your vast wisdom, why would China want Taiwan other than to take ownership of what Taiwan has to offer. ...If they weren't going to leech off Taiwan somehow, they wouldn't care. They wouldn't have reason to. ...Let's remember, it's not exactly China (with their short-range ballistic missiles) that is protecting Taiwan's national security...


Quote by Holt
I also find it hypocritical that you would believe your country is the
war stopper and only the "bad guys" go and invade other countries. What
happened in Vietnam? I believe that was something about trying to take
over the country merely because the US was afraid of the growing
influence of communism. You call that fighting for freedom? I don't. I
call it attempting to push your own political system on others
forcibly.

It's interesting that you bring up that conflict Holt. Did you know the French were there before the USA was? Did you? Ok. Well do you know why? ... Look it up. In spite of the horrors of that war for the USA and all involved, the protection and defense of South Vietnam was the subject of international intervention.

I will also add that the USA wasn't the only nation involved in Vietnam. North Vietnam was acting with significant support from both China and the ussr. I have trouble imagining why you would think it anything but a prudent action to help defend a non-aggressive, peaceful country from the wrath of martial expansionists, backed by two super-powers...

Quote by Holt
I'm also quite sure that alot of middle-eastern countries are thinking,
"Hey, they took out Afghanistan and Iraq. Maybe we're next!" Sure Al
Qaeda started it but how does that justify bombing an entire country
and replacing the government with one chosen by the US? Go in and take
out the terrorists if you must but leave the innocent civilians out of
it.

Holt... ...The government of Afghanistan was supportive of terrorists, and had sheltered and assisted actions subversive to the United States. Worse, the Taliban weren't the original government of Afghanistan. ...On the plus side though, the Taliban definitely kept the drug supply down in that country. ;) I don't know the full details as to why we went to Afghanistan. However, it had nothing to do with their predominant religion.

Nor is/was the matter with Iraq a religious issue. None of the middle-eastern countries have anything to fear from the US. (Unless they attack Israel, of course. ;) )


Quote by Holt

i guess you feel that any country run by a dictator must be horrible
full of corruption, violence and evil. Only democratic nations like the
US have happy people.

In general, I believe history has shown this to be the case... ...It's hard to argue with real life Holt... ...Philosophy and could-be's are nothing if they're wrong.

Quote by Holt
I can tell you that there are plenty of countries run by dictatorships
which are very well run. Some even better than the US. Take the UAE for
example. Very rich country. Very high GDP per capita. Very happy
people. 5 years ago no one had ever heard of the tiny country. Now the
city of Dubai is known for it's incredible hotels, shopping, sun,
beach, everything!
I've also wondered why you have billion or trillianairs in the US yet
there are so many poor people there. Perhaps the US should sort out
their own problems before they go sticking their noses in other's.

...Umm.... Poor people in the usa...? ....Not really Holt, no. Generally, systems are in place for folks that need help. We have homeless... ...But a very large percentage of the homeless in the USA have mental problems. ...It's a sad thing, but folks are trying to solve that too. In general, vast governmental, charitable and personal support is available to anyone who needs it in the USA. If you're poor, you can gain significant grants, etc. so you can go to college, and work for a better future. ...The USA is a wonderful place Holt. It's not perfect, but it seems that in the US, if you work hard for your future, you can succeed. ...Even if though it may be a really hard road to make it to success.

I know folks may have a hard life in the us... ...But at the same time, I'd rather be roughing it here than in any other country.

Quote by Holt
About the US action in Iraq, here's something I read recently in the
news. Over $1 million raised by the UN and trusted to the US to invest
into rebuilding Iraq has simply gone missing!


$1 Million, huh Holt? Do you have any clue how much the war in Iraq costs? That's nothing but fly ointment bud... this war costs well over 160,000 fold more than that relatively small number. If that is the biggest thing they have to worry about, they should feel lucky.

Quote by HoltOn top of that, inquiry
boards found that hundreds of million dollar deals were made with no
documentation, no infromation on what they were for and no evidence
that the contractors had done anything. Apparently incompetence was so
high that some contractors got paid twice for absolutely nothing.

Stuff happens. I'm reasonably sure that such mistakes will be sorted out as they happen. Nobody's perfect Holt. Certainly the two of us aren't either.


Quote by Holt

What's going on? So far the new runners of Iraq haven't been any less
corrupt and incompetent than Saddam.

Really...? I didn't know Iraq's new political figures were having personal castles built for themselves, or perhaps killing people they don't like? ...I'm surprised it has happened so soon Holt. Perhaps you would like to substantiate this?

Quote by Holt
Now the US as the world police. I thought you were all for democracy
and freedom. I don't remember any worldwide vote to let the US do
whatever the hell they want. I thought that's what the UN are for. A
representative of the world.

That IS what the UN is for Holt. Peaceful resolution. The USA tried to go through the UN. Things got too sticky for timely action. Personally, I wish that folks might have waited longer. However, when the UN requires inspection of possible WMD sites, and access is suddenly refused, that's not exactly going to lead anywhere peaceful. The USA wasn't going to repeat the mistakes learned from the regulation of Germany after World War I.


Quote by Holt
And if Bush's actions are unpopular, yet he does it anyway, how is that
any different to a dictatorship?

Umm... ...For one, he's an elected official, and the man this democratic republic selected to handle such decisions. Should we have a full vote for every little thing, progress would be virtually impossible. Look at how big of a mess it was with Florida. ...They almost didn't count the votes of servicewomen/men overseas in their rush... ...The US selected the man they felt was best for the job of the candidates available. He's a politician, and a leader. Not a dictator.


Quote by Holt
I must say that the Bush election campaign in the US must have been
very good because absolutely no one outside of the US can think of any
reason to keep Bush in office except that maybe the alternative was
even worse.

Incidentally, both Gore and Kerry probably would have been horribly worse. In spite of my contrasting views with the Democratic Party, it would be nice to see them put up someone worth voting for...

Quote by HoltI know I know, who cares what us foreigners think? He's
your president.
But I think that if your president is to be given the right to be the
police commisioner of the world so to speak, then the people of the
world should be the ones to vote him in.

No-one made him the police commissioner of the world. ....And the USA is not acting alone in its interventions either. The USA is just the bigger, and most apparent force in the world today.

Quote by Holt

If all us smaller countries are just meant to bow down to the US
judgement, I for one wouldn't call it freedom.

Um, okay Holt. ...Give me one nation here that is currently “bowing down� to the US? Iraq? Iraq now has selected their own leadership. The US remains in Iraq to help pick up the pieces following this violent transition.

Holt, people in Iraq are dying today for their freedom. ...People of Iraq are dying for their freedom. Did you not see the purple dye on their fingers after they voted? ...The Iraqis put took their lives in their hands when they went to vote. Some were blown up. ...Others stood in line waiting to vote while the pieces were cleaned up.

The people of Iraq wanted the US there. The people of Taiwan want the US there. I hope that this ongoing discussion is helping clarify the utter importance of the US in maintaining a share in the future of the world.

hiddensnakehands

hiddensnakehands

Captain Obvious

First of all, I dont think US is in China's business.

The first point I am going to talk about, the EU embargo on China on the advanced weapons. As we all know, China has the largest military in the world. And even though the current administration in China is stable and mild, there has been constant pressure from the right wing conservatives. Their aim is turn China into a militaristic state and they are the ones who cry out to press when US uses its influence to stop EU from exporting weapons to China. I fear, if EU starts export weapons to China, we might see China going in a different direction. It is not like China does not have elite machineary, they do in some areas. Although I am chinese myself, I do not wish to see that happen. This is in the end, not a game. Proof, another tiananmen Square

Second point I am going to make, I understand everyone's mindset of US is pretty being a bulldog and a world police. I shall make this clear, without the active involvement of United States in areas of the world, we would for sure had probably about 5 world wars already. Do you not think N.Korea will already take over S. Korea if not for US, heck, they tried already in the beginning of the 50's. What would happen in Vietnam, North would just impose the communist ideology on the South if not for US. Granted, US did not get out of these two wars nicely, but they did in a way, preserve the freedom of the people. Now, you can look at this, South Korea is a world economic force while N.Korea cannot even feed its people, South Vietnam is much better off than the North. Please do not be surprised later maybe in like 5 years, that Iraq will be the inspiration of all muslim countries. And maybe you are going to argue that US did not assist those countries as they did to South Korea and so, but those countries, their top priority is Military, not economics and well-being of its people
We shall now take a step back and review what US did as opposed to what USSR did during the Cold War. Under the Marshall Plan, US gave out tons of million to the west Europe to help them recover, while USSR top priority is converting those nations into their satellite states. Are you not surprised the huge economic and social difference between West Germany and East Germany? I am not saying that US is being a really nice guy to the west Europe, however, whatever they did, did prove to be better that what USSR did right?

On the third issue, I am going to tackle the Taiwan issue. I am not sure about what the situation is like right after the Nationalists fleed there in 1949, but right now, Taiwan is about as independent of a state as you can get. To make some sense for some of you, you can think of the situation as Japan-Okinawa, and US-Hawaii. Judging by the number of investment Taiwan have in China, a war at this moment is very unlikely. I do think, however, both China and Taiwan are portraying to the outside world a false image. China is blaming Taiwan on attempting to suceed and US on its interference, Taiwan is blaming China on its military threat as a reason to build up their own army.

That is all what I have to say (I am chinese by the way)
China needs to improve its Economy

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ok, dude, china is a communist country, or so they say. Name ONE communist country in the history of the world which has served a good purpose when having too much power. The US is in on everyone's business, get over it, k? China already HAS nuclear weapons, they have the largest army in the world and their economy is unmatched, how much more do they want? geez. North Korea is just a little dot on the map fighting for attention, just like a little kid..or an ancious midget.

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hiddensnakehands

hiddensnakehands

Captain Obvious

To ShariganKnight
China is allowed to have nuclear weapons, while North Korea is not
Economy unmatched? I would not say that

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Quote by HoltI've been following the current problems between US, China, Taiwan and North Korea and I just read this article
Basically, China says Taiwan is part of China and is trying to get them back whilst the US sides with Taiwan and provides them with weapons etc.
Meanwhile, the EU is thinking of lifting arms embargoes on China so China's military technology can develope and oh course, the US is against China getting stronger so they want the embargo to stay.
And at the same time, the US doesn't want NK to have nuclear weapons so they want China to cut them off from essential resources like rice and such to collapse the NK economy.

Now, what the hell is this? The US is doing all they can to try and make China weaker and increase it's foothold in the area (by getting the support of Taiwan probably so they can build another Air/Naval base :hmpf: ) and then they have the nerve to ask China to help them in stopping another country from getting power?
I agree that the fewer nukes the better, but who made the US the deciders of who gets power and who doesn't? The nerve of that idiot president really pisses me off. >=(

First off, China is just as committed as the U.S. to having a nuclear free North Korea. Second, North Korea's policy of isolationism is what has created their poverty and famine.
Videos smuggled out of North Korea have shown public executions for the "crime" of having contact with the outside world. The trial consists of dragging the people out of their homes in front of everyone, accusing them, tying them to a pole, and shooting them.
And China itself is guilty of human rights violations. Political dissidents, e.g. pro-democracy, are jailed and put into forced labor. All those little "Made in China" labels? They were made by prisoners, many of whom are only guilty of wanting Democracy instead of communism.
We support Taiwan because Taiwan is pro-democracy, and our policy since the 1950s (Way before Bush, I might add) is to support any democracy that opposes a communist regime. We've been supporting Taiwan since well before Bush took office, so don't try and make it out that this is his idea or plan. He is simply continuing the work begun by others.
And North Korea wouldn't have nukes at all if Bill Clinton hadn't given them the material they needed to make the damn things in the first place.
We want embargos on China because they keep us safe. And it also sends the message that we do not want China to continue its policy of imprisoning political dissidents.

I would urge that in the future, people study history before they start accusing Bush of anything. Next thing you know, someone will accuse him of the Kennedy assassination.

Just like to clarify.

1. Taiwan's government was the same as China's first government. Taiwan's gov took all the money when they ran from Beijing after corruption charges against the Nationalists.

2. Russia and China didn't get along very well. At least not during the Cold War. They have military practices now, but that's really NOTHING!

3.The Chinese government want Chen Shui Bian (Taiwan's Pres.) in charge, with his ego and aspirations for fame and legacy, his stupidy will lead to Taiwan's delclaration of Independence. Which, conflicts with half of Taiwan (at least politically) and China will immediately declare war. U.S. will stay out because they owe the Chinese gov. 600 billion in debts and they have a war already, so, they'll pass on this one. Regardless of what Bush has said.

4.America and China does not have an alliance. However, China and North Korea does. One reason why no one wants to invade N.K., they tries once before. Didn't work out well.

MOEDERTOR- Thanks for the History. Really detailed.
5. The U.S. is not increasing it's foothold in Asia terrtorialy, but if you look at influence, it's not hard to agress that U.S. interests has been much stronger than it was 20 years ago. Taiwan is dependent on China for food, industry, market, and jobs, and dependent on U.S. for defense and protection. What does the Government of Taiwan do? It's so interdependent that it's independence is secretly being smeered by 2 superpowers.

6. Taiwan currently has a huge national deficit, I wouldn't call it a powerhouse if conflict were to occur acorss the straits.

7. The U.S. has assited one too many times, Haiti, Cuba, Korea, Vietnam, etc.. But not enough in places like Rwanda, where their interest there is non-existent.

8. And as for the insightful analysis on saving face, it's more like pride. If the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, or Washington D.C., Hawaii, declared independence, the first order of business of the U.S.A. would be to preserve the union, shouldn't you "allow" China the same oppurtunity. U.S.A. has is a country of many contradictions, and quite the hypocrite.

9. Why would you want to be on the U.N. other than recongnition?

merged: 11-23-2005 ~ 01:44pm
Everyone seems so convinced that China will become a Superpower.

Like the rest of the world, don't you think you are overestimating China?

The political system in China is extremely corrupt, (so corrupt that it had intergrated as a part of the culture, a weak banking system, billion of mishandeld money and laundering. No superpower ever came from this and it never will. Even though China has 1.3 billion people, let's not forget that 75% of them is farmers, whom are poorly educated and know not much then what they are going to eat for dinner. The others are educated in a rote society that doesn't accept diversity or dissedence (sources of creativity), combining this with a weak political system you have.... NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT.

Yes, it might be worriesome with the Chinese's military history they might not be the most peaceful nation. But, as society progress, it's hard to imagine/predict that they'll be warmongers. Unlike U.S.A., The Chinese politicians have nothing to gain from a military actions. No incentive means no war. They might extend their influence, similiar to the U.S., but not as far as territorial acquistion. The Chinese generally public prefer peace just like everyone else. There must be a reason for War, ambition and land simply isn't enough in the 21st century.

Emic Perspective

Note: WWI was started by Entangling Alliances and Nationalistic Tention- Check your European History book if you don' believe me.

merged: 11-23-2005 ~ 01:53pm
Just one more thing, When was the last time China officially invaded another country?

Imperialism is dead. A new era is about to begin.

Everyone is hooked up with whomever purely for benefit.
China is Russia's biggest arms buyer and Taiwan is an important buyer of 'older' American arms. (hey they've gotta get rid of their old stuff somehow)
Yes taiwan may be win if China attacked but u think China will be better off? All foreign investments will cease, globally economy will be severely affected and no i dont think China will be able to make a successful invasion.
China knows this point pretty clearly but sticks to their guns cos if Taiwan was independant, other provinces in western China (ie Tibet) will wanna claim independance etc. The ppl dont really care about if Taiwan was independant or a part of China cos they still do business. There is alot of Taiwanese ppl investing in China for business.

It would be unprofitable for any country to wage war unless they were attacked but who would be stupid enough to attack (maybe NK hence the need for the countries like US and China to disarm them, Kim Jong Il is sorta a mad man u know)

'Power corrupts' so its obvious that as head of the most powerful country in the world it would get to ur head abit. Anyone coming along and challenging that power needs to be dealt with before they can grow to that status so US is doing wat it can to limit China's influence and power (remember the Cold War where Russia and US was trying to be top dog) The other western countries are pretty much settled and not a threat so the US works along with them wen it suits them but over issues such as iraq, the US ignored alot of countries and still went and did their stuff cos they can and no one would stop them but just sulk.

LigerZSchnider

LigerZSchnider

Litterbox Trained........

Personally, I think this is being blown WAY out of purportions.

I think that China is trying to show the WTO (world trade orginization) that it can be a ECONOMIC superpower rather than a military one. Once that is established, and the world recognizes that, then there will be no need to flex "military muscles" at anyone. The US government isn't going to prevent that from happening, in fact they welcome it! The garbage between Taiwan and China must be delt with by those two. That is why the US would rather have a diplomatic soultion to counter the problem. It all comes down to basic economics and political gains.

Major corporations in the US have figured out how to get a bigger product for less: Outsourceing. They build plants outside the US because, they don't have to worry about unions, labor laws, and pay rates for each employee. They figured out that since people outside the US will work longer and harder for less money, they rake in a bigger profit, and stick the consumer with the bill. Import/export taxes and tariffs is pocket change to them. That is why a good 75% of the textile industires are no longer in the States. But they haven't prepared themselves for the fact that China wants to do it by themselves. Soon China will be the one of the biggest economic powerhouse in the world. Then they gonna hit you where it hurts the most: your wallet! How do anyone think OPEC got to where its at today? When China reaches the goal I think they are headed, they won't care about Taiwan. It's like when a guy ditches a nerdy girl for a hot chick, not knowing that the nerdy girl he had turned out to be hotter than the one he left her for!

North Korea is different. Kim Jun Il (or whoever he is) is all about power and domination. There has been nothing but horror stories from survivors.There is no doubt in my mind the they are a proud nation, but a nation united under a demorcratic, or whatever society they chooses will be better.

And leave Japan alone. Its always better to move forward than backwards.

merged: 11-23-2005 ~ 09:57pm

Quote by Kay0982Everyone is hooked up with whomever purely for benefit.
China is Russia's biggest arms buyer and Taiwan is an important buyer of 'older' American arms. (hey they've gotta get rid of their old stuff somehow)
Yes taiwan may be win if China attacked but u think China will be better off? All foreign investments will cease, globally economy will be severely affected and no i dont think China will be able to make a successful invasion.
China knows this point pretty clearly but sticks to their guns cos if Taiwan was independant, other provinces in western China (ie Tibet) will wanna claim independance etc. The ppl dont really care about if Taiwan was independant or a part of China cos they still do business. There is alot of Taiwanese ppl investing in China for business.

It would be unprofitable for any country to wage war unless they were attacked but who would be stupid enough to attack (maybe NK hence the need for the countries like US and China to disarm them, Kim Jong Il is sorta a mad man u know)

'Power corrupts' so its obvious that as head of the most powerful country in the world it would get to ur head abit. Anyone coming along and challenging that power needs to be dealt with before they can grow to that status so US is doing wat it can to limit China's influence and power (remember the Cold War where Russia and US was trying to be top dog) The other western countries are pretty much settled and not a threat so the US works along with them wen it suits them but over issues such as iraq, the US ignored alot of countries and still went and did their stuff cos they can and no one would stop them but just sulk.

The funny thing about the Cold War, it was never about military might. Each side had enough nuclear and conventional arms to devestate the planet! It was all about influencing other nations. The US poured trillions of dollars into West Germany, so much that you can see the difference between the 1950's to the 1980's just by walking across Brandenburg Gate! We even developed "smart" weapons, so that we can destory a city block without shattering the next blocks' windows! So now the US was all about accuracy and the Soviets were about sheer numbers when it came to military might. Then the Soviets went into Afganistan with out dated and porrly maintained equipment to gain more territory.

Big mistake.

It flattened them economically. They couldn't afford to maintan equipment rather than build them. So they folded. Then, it was our turn during Operation Desert Storm. It was really a testing ground between the Soviet and the US military. Iraq lost its army in 101 hours! And they had then updated Soviet technology, such as the Su-27, T80 MBT(main battle tank), and reactive armor. That was the final curtain call for the Soviets. If their best conventional equipment couldn't stand up to our own, what would have happend if they committed to an actual engagement against the US? And no one wanted nuclear war.

I can honestly say that the US is heading down the same path if the administration would just slow down and focus on one agenda at a time.

"In the absence of orders, find something and kill it" - Erwin Rommel

I am a Chinese so my opinion maybe biased

I think US is involved simply because of their own national interest. All the talks about protecting freedom and people of Taiwan are just BS.

If China ever takes control of Taiwan back, China would have control over the west pacific. They would control the connection between Japan and South East Asia. That's what US do not want to see. China would have huge strategic advantage.

There's no way in hell China would let Taiwan become indepedent and become a US ally. Not only because the majority of Chinese people would not want to because of emotions), but also because China would have lost control of its power on the pacific totally. China would lose all the control of the oil and other resources that are buried in the west pacific.

Although US and China are not in war, but both sides still need to think strategically.

For people that imply Taiwan would be "enslaved" by China if China took control, that's total BS too. China's past proposal about unification allow Taiwan's people to elect officals to the highest order in the central government in Beijing. Taiwan can have it's own regional government and even it's defense force.I don't have a link for these statements. But if you look at old history and media records, you can find the proof of it.

If US really continue to stick its noise into the Taiwan affair, Taiwan can indeed propose independence in the near future. That pretty much means war for sure. I doubt Taiwan can afford a war. That's not what people on both sides want anyways. If US likes to help Taiwan in a war, that would just enraged China and it can turn into a nuclear war.

The Falling Star has a point. I mean if you look at Hong Kong, you can see that the place is virtually independent in government and only reunited in name. China and U.S. would NEVER go to war, otherwise EVERY OTHER COUNTRY will intervene. The Nationalist in Taiwan isn't exactly supportive or Chen Shui Bian, and not all of the people in Taiwan and reader to denounce their Chinese heritage. A war between Taiwan and China would have serious internal resistance from Taiwan, there would be lots of people with pro-china sentiments sabotaging the Taiwan war effort.

merged: 11-27-2005 ~ 04:42am
And one more thing. We are NEVER going to have a nuclear war, that's just in people's imagination.

merged: 11-27-2005 ~ 04:43am
And one more thing. We are NEVER going to have a nuclear exchange war, that's just in people's imagination. It's too dangerous and everyone knows it.

Etherinmeria:

I certain hope what you said about "We are NEVER going to have a nuclear war" is true. From China's perspective, losing Taiwan to the US would cost the nation itself to break apart. The region of XinJeng, Tibet and Inner Mongolia would also try to seperate. The communist party may fall and China can be in another stage of chaos.

That's why I think there's no way PRC would even consider losing. It would probably use extreme measures (such as nuclear weapon) to try to regain the upper hand if it's losing to the US, Taiwan and Japan. I maybe too perssimistic though.

llxcharlenexll

llxcharlenexll

Love Me For Me

the brain of the US president is in his a$$ by influencing the EU to hold millitary trades China will turn to Russia which technology and millitary forces are similar to US theres no country in this world can dominate or control trade talks and commercial deals world is going to free trade system the prestige of US is going down by suppressing China you can find the China president have been frequently visit all over the world and he is generally welcomed everywhere however the US president and his TEAM are not as welcome as before except even they fart japanese will say "oh it smells good" >_>

Quote by TheFallingStarEtherinmeria:

losing Taiwan to the US would cost the nation itself to break apart.

That's just it. China is losing Taiwan to U.S., not Taiwan. One of my points is that Taiwan doesn't gain any independence. And as for the Chinese military, they won't have to do a thing in the next ten years. Remeber, Taiwan is a politically divided country, meaning internal rebellion will occur if Taiwan declared indepence. If Chinese supported the Taiwan "rebels", the U.S. senate would not confirm military action against China because the Chinese is not providing troops but ammunition and supplies. The U.S.'s largest international debt is to China, Bush would kill the Republican party if he supported Taiwan. Would you still believe that Taiwan had a chance if U.S. did not provided military support? The Cold War is over, the U.S. has no real reason supporting Taiwan. There is simple no advantages in helping them.

The Chinese still consider people from Taiwan brothers and sisters, that's why they won't launch a nuke. A submarine blockade would probably be a more reasonable response.

merged: 11-27-2005 ~ 02:42pm
And the region for separtion? First, it's XingJian, not XingJeng, mongolia, and Tiber will not separate because who is going to provide them with supplies? If China cuts them off, not too many countries would be willing to offer a hand. (maybe except Tibet but that's for religious reason, Tibet is a separate post on it's own.)

The Falling Star, as a Chinese, don't you think you should have some faith in the 2.4 million Army?

Sallyf322

Sallyf322

*_Amateur Guitarist_*

Oh dear...why can't we all just get along? ^-^" And here I thought "my people" were in good relations with the US...well, I've no idea if any of this stuff is true disregarding the article.

"If everyone cared and nobody cried, if everyone loved and nobody lied, if everyone shared and swallowed their pride, then we'd see the day...when nobody died. I'm singing amen I, amen I, I'm alive." - Nickelback: "If Everyone Cared."

If only, if only, the world were like this. If only, if only, it only existed.

Here's my 2 cents:
1 America supports Taiwan not only to preserve its democracy but because of a treaty made decades ago.

2 Taiwan has the right to make its own choice. What China is doing is like America going back to the Philipines and demanding they turn back into a territory. Then, if they don't listen, putting a bunch of Marines off the coast as well as a bunch of nuke subs, and saying"If you declare you are not part of the US, we are going to invade and kill you". BTW, do you guys actually think all the weapons pointed at Taiwan are precision munitions made to minimize civilian casualties? China has made it clear that not only will Taiwan be conquered, but totally destroyed. That would be a major sticking point for me to want to join up with a country.

3 US ask China to help with North Korea because China has had influence with them for decades.

4 China has had a practice of fixing their money to the US dollar to ensure that they can flood the US market with their products.China also has nothing wrong with breaking copywrite laws and stealing intellectual properties of patented foreign goods. As long as China's growth goes up it doesn't matter. China's cities have some of the worst air pollution in the world do to the growing economy. And though 2.3 million Chinese die per year from respiratory ailments brought on by this pollution, the government will do nothing, because it may slow down economic growth.

5 There is a large disparity between the wealth being gained from China's economic growth. The vast majority of the rural population, poor and middle class have seen little forward movement, where as the rich get richer.

6 As for the warmongers out there that love to contemplate conflict between the US and China, it already happened. During the Korean War, after the US Marines broke the Pusan Perimeter, they pushed north up to the Chinese border. The Chinese sent hundreds of thousands of troops across Yalu river defeating the US Army in a series of battles east of the Chosin reservoir, causing a total route for the US Army of over 100,000. To the west, the 9th Chinese Army group attacked X corp the express purpose of whiping out the 1st Marine Division. The US Army's 7th cav regiment was all but whiped out, which left the Marine division alone to face 10 Chinese divisions. The order was given for the 22,000 Marines to retreat to the link up with the rest of the retreating US/UN force, but it was surrounded. For three days, the Marines fought and escaped from the 200,000 Chinese soldiers. Out of the 10 divisions surounding the Marines, all were destroyed as combat units and saw no combat for the rest of the war. After this pivotal battle that allowed the bulk of the US troops to advance(the 8th army to the east would have probably been cut off and destroyed by the 9th Chinese Army, had the Marines failed, or had they been re deployed earlier to attack the main US force). The US/UN forces regrouped to the south after the Chinese pushed across the 38th parallel and pushed the Chinese/North Koreans North again until a cease fire was officially signed. Both sides failed-the US led force failed to unite a democratic Korea and China failed to unite a communist Korea. Both sides were pushed and shoved, the Chinese and N Koreans taking heavy casualties late in the war and losing the ground they had gained during their winter offensive after 2 horribly failed spring offensives. Many US casualties occured during the time in which a cease fire was being drawn up late in the war also.

7 Is there anything wrong with America defending its national interest? Look at the EU, Japan, and China. They have more biased trade restrictions and high tarrifs than anyone. But, if the US does something similar to the Chinese(who openly fix thier money to the dollar), they are wrong? Thats makes no sense at all. China does everything to protect its national interest, so why can't the US? Seeing as how America has a bunch of money invested in China, China is American business.

8 I just looked it up, the trade deficit with China barely passed 200 billion. Chinese markets are still closed to American products. And though China promised to stop the dollar fixing, China only let its currency move .33% against the dollar. Now that is economic hostility. Sanctions should follow if such acts are continued...perhaps slowing Chinese national growth will make them think about such hostile tactics. Some people would call the US deplorable for doing either what China is doing OR putting on sanctions to stop.

9 The US is at the "top of the hill" as some put it. My question is this. If you were the CEO of a company, would you just give it up, or just sit there and let someone take your job and money away that you don't really get along with anyway? I know I wouldn't. China wouldn't. Do you think they will stop trying to grow economically? No...wonder if someone told them what they do is unfare to other countries trying to develope? Nope, they'd just tell them to quit whining. There is no point to being at "the top" if you don't intend to stay there. Not to mention, with all of the stuff China has now, how come it contributes squat to multinational relief efforts, peacekeeping, or any other international orginization when it doesn't benifit them? I thinks each country has its flaws, so their is nothing being done that is too intrussive by either side.

10 As for nukes in North Korea. Scenerio-would stand by and let a man who has promised that before he dies, he will have invaded another country, develope nukes? Do you know that part of the strategy that is in place for the North Korean invasion of South Korea calls for massive chemical artillery and rocket attacks on Soul? Do you know that the North Koreans have over 10,000 artillery peices along the DMZ ready to go at a moments notice(with banned chemical munitions)? Do you know that they have an army of over 2 million people? Thats why you don't let Kim Jong Il have nukes.

Quote: The Falling Star, as a Chinese, don't you think you should have some faith in the 2.4 million Army?

I really wish I have have faith in the Chinese military, but with all the corruptions in China...I don't really know if I should trust them. The last time the army actually thought a war was like 20-30 years ago. The Chinese military's technology is also quite a bit behind the Japanese and Americans. All these factors together just doesn't give me too much confidence.

Quote: I just looked it up, the trade deficit with China barely passed 200 billion. Chinese markets are still closed to American products. And though China promised to stop the dollar fixing, China only let its currency move .33% against the dollar. Now that is economic hostility. Sanctions should follow if such acts are continued...perhaps slowing Chinese national growth will make them think about such hostile tactics. Some people would call the US deplorable for doing either what China is doing OR putting on sanctions to stop.

Hey let me tell you one thing. The Chinese wouldn't mind fixing this situtation. Why don't you guys actually sell us the stuff we want? We are really deseperate to import your medical and high tech products! That's why China just bought 70+ boeing aircrafts during President Bush's visit to China. The problem is US just doesn't want to sell more. Why should China buy bunch of stuff that they can make themselve when the quality is the same, but the price is cheaper. There's not need to import more, the Chinese have made way more than enough toys, plastic, clothes...etc for themselves and for exports.

The US is a hypocrite on trade issues anyways. Look at what US is doing to Canada with the softwood lumber deal. The US is still violating the NAFTA agreement (which they signed) even after many NAFTA rulings sided with Canada.

Of course to be fair, everyone (including China and US) is just protecting their own interest. That's how the world works...sad but truth.

Quote by TheFallingStar
I really wish I have have faith in the Chinese military, but with all the corruptions in China...I don't really know if I should trust them. The last time the army actually thought a war was like 20-30 years ago. The Chinese military's technology is also quite a bit behind the Japanese and Americans. All these factors together just doesn't give me too much confidence.

I totally support your trade argument. As for the Chinese Army, aren't they practicing with the Russian military right now? Pentagon indicates Chinese military technology will be up to date in 10 years, which is pretty good compared with 20-30 years ago. The corruption does hinder societal progress, but I don't think it has anything to with effective use of the military. Could you link it for me, I'm not sure what you mean.

Falling Star-I don't think you understand what I said when I was saying that the Chinese have severely limited their imports of American good. China doesn't allow the US to sell the majority of its products over there, so how would a Chinese citizen ever know if they wanted an American product if they never knew it existed? China only imports the food and technology it needs, duplicates the technology, then stops trading in that product if they could make it themselve. The only thing China imports on a regular basis is food. Many things you buy here in America say "Made in China" on them, I don't want most of it, but it is still there if I ever did. I'm guessing you are Chinese-tell me this, if you go to the store, how many things do you see that say "Made in America" on on them? Probably not that many if any apart from food.

As for buying the aircraft, China has always imported its Airplanes, military and domestic. It would be bad politics for China to buy from Airbus and ignore its #1 customer. Wood and Canada, hmm, how many countries get into squabbles over their products? Especially the US and Canada. A few years back it was Canada's unfair fishing practices off of the west coast, then it was Canada shutting its doors to American beef because mad cow disease was found in one cow in America(which turned out to be a Canadian cow). This year it is wood. But you know what? Both countries will solve this and come up with a mutual agreement. America won't refuse to import foreign goods or materials, and the US won't maliciously do something to Canada like flood its markets like China did to the US after the international quotas were lifted a while back.
That is what I was talking about. While China openly violates copywrite laws, fixes their money, floods the US market, and severely limits imports, it expects the US to just sit by and let this happen? I think not. Then if America does do something, it calls foul and says that the US is meddling in their business. Let me ask you this, if China is that hostile toward America economically, who do you think they are trying to build their military to defeat? It sure isn't Japan, India, or any other country in the region. The Chinese military is being built up to challenge the American military specifically, is the opposite true, no. The US military these days is designed around an expeditionary approach, to be anywhere in the world at a set time. If it were made to defeat the Chinese military do you think we would only have one fleet, and a few divisions station in that area?

As for military tech 10 years huh? I'm not trying to say Chinese are stupid but some of you aren't making any sense. Riddle me this: You say America constantly twist its information and lies to other countries to get its way, but you believe it when it says something favorable? The last military purchases the Chinese made were last year and most of that was imported from Russia. So, what this means, is to catch up to the tech level America is at in ten years, China would have to embark on a major military build up and spend copious amounts of its money to do so. Is that militarism not hostile in itself? When China sets America as its benchmark to beat, that means that it has hostile plans for the future. And if I have learned one thing about China it is this: Chinese aren't dumb and they don't rush things, they are patient and do things for a reason(this is the Chinese government I'm talking about). And thats what is so wrong about it. They don't plan for a war right now or even in the next 5 years. China is preparing for a war a decade or two away and I would think that pretty obvious. It happened in the Korean War when the Chinese helped North Koreans. Most of the Chinese manuevers in the early war were meant to test their skill and tactics against those of an American or European military. Hundreds of thousands of lives were lost to test theories and gauge stengths and weaknesses. Could that happen again? Yes. Before anyone says times change and let bygones be bygones should look at the Chinese situation with Japan. They still can't get passed centuries old differences and still get into international debates over WW2. If China is still angered by thing that happened in WW2, what makes anyone think it doesn't remember the Korean War?
America downsized its military a lot after the Cold War ended, China's has just gotten bigger and bigger. America has destroyed more than half of its cold war era nukes and destroys more every year, China wants to build more(and sell the technology to other countries like Iran). America has embraced the Chinese economy, China has shunned America's. America supports the government in Taiwan, China threatens to destroy it.
Why should America not be worried about the goings on in China? If the Chinese government didn't have a "dagger" behind their back everytime they shook the hand of the American government it wouldn't be a problem. I am not saying that America is on a high horse, I am just putting out the reasons America and China mutually distrust each other. Everyone was so quick to name the faults of America, and paint China as an innocent nation just trying to get along. When in reality it does as much intrusion into American business as America does in theirs.

LigerZSchnider

LigerZSchnider

Litterbox Trained........

Quote by TheFallingStar

Quote: The Falling Star, as a Chinese, don't you think you should have some faith in the 2.4 million Army?

I really wish I have have faith in the Chinese military, but with all the corruptions in China...I don't really know if I should trust them. The last time the army actually thought a war was like 20-30 years ago. The Chinese military's technology is also quite a bit behind the Japanese and Americans. All these factors together just doesn't give me too much confidence.

Quote: I just looked it up, the trade deficit with China barely passed 200 billion. Chinese markets are still closed to American products. And though China promised to stop the dollar fixing, China only let its currency move .33% against the dollar. Now that is economic hostility. Sanctions should follow if such acts are continued...perhaps slowing Chinese national growth will make them think about such hostile tactics. Some people would call the US deplorable for doing either what China is doing OR putting on sanctions to stop.

Hey let me tell you one thing. The Chinese wouldn't mind fixing this situtation. Why don't you guys actually sell us the stuff we want? We are really deseperate to import your medical and high tech products! That's why China just bought 70+ boeing aircrafts during President Bush's visit to China. The problem is US just doesn't want to sell more. Why should China buy bunch of stuff that they can make themselve when the quality is the same, but the price is cheaper. There's not need to import more, the Chinese have made way more than enough toys, plastic, clothes...etc for themselves and for exports.

The US is a hypocrite on trade issues anyways. Look at what US is doing to Canada with the softwood lumber deal. The US is still violating the NAFTA agreement (which they signed) even after many NAFTA rulings sided with Canada.

Of course to be fair, everyone (including China and US) is just protecting their own interest. That's how the world works...sad but truth.

You asked a question: "Why should China buy bunch of stuff that they can make themselve when the quality is the same, but the price is cheaper."

I don't want to sound like an asshole, but China has a unique history when it comes to making stuff. ^_^' When the Soviets sent fighter aircrafts to China during the Korean War, China tore apart the aircrafts, manufactured identical parts, and mass produced the aircraft. However, the Chinese aircrafts had defects and the Soviet aircraft didn't. Sorry, I am a aircraft fanatic (mainly fighters :D ). Just think if we decided to send our high technological equipment to China to be produced.........

Like I stated earlier, I rather China pursue a economic route.......if you can grab them by the wallet, you can grab everything! But when you asked that question, it reminded me of that part of history. And history has a nasty way of repeating itself.

However, major corporations in the US knows that manufacturing products in China will be cheaper for them and expensive for us, thus the reason why they are lobbying so that the US should not pursue in China/Tawian affiars. But, we also can not turn a blind eye from Tawian. If China can advance without Tawian, eventually Tawian will want to return to China. You will go where the money is at.

"In the absence of orders, find something and kill it" - Erwin Rommel

Quote by JLSL China doesn't allow the US to sell the majority of its products over there, so how would a Chinese citizen ever know if they wanted an American product if they never knew it existed?

You obviously never been to China or you wouldn't say that China doesn't allow American goods. Quite the contray, American goods are the most popular items in China ranging from Jeans to fast food chains such as McDonalds, etc. Chinese citizens wants anything foreign, believing is has a higher quality. True, China has a quota for imported goods, but so does the U.S., except it's higher.


Quote by JLSL
As for buying the aircraft, China has always imported its Airplanes, military and domestic. It would be bad politics for China to buy from Airbus and ignore its #1 customer. Wood and Canada, hmm, how many countries get into squabbles over their products? Especially the US and Canada. A few years back it was Canada's unfair fishing practices off of the west coast, then it was Canada shutting its doors to American beef because mad cow disease was found in one cow in America(which turned out to be a Canadian cow). This year it is wood. But you know what? Both countries will solve this and come up with a mutual agreement. America won't refuse to import foreign goods or materials, and the US won't maliciously do something to Canada like flood its markets like China did to the US after the international quotas were lifted a while back.

As I already stated above, China has the same system U.S. has on international import quotas. There was never a case of mad cow disease in the U.S., but if you are talking about that cow in Pennsylvania, it fell over and superstitious people called it mad cow disease.

Quote:
That is what I was talking about. While China openly violates copywrite laws, fixes their money, floods the US market, and severely limits imports, it expects the US to just sit by and let this happen? I think not. Then if America does do something, it calls foul and says that the US is meddling in their business. Let me ask you this, if China is that hostile toward America economically, who do you think they are trying to build their military to defeat? It sure isn't Japan, India, or any other country in the region. The Chinese military is being built up to challenge the American military specifically, is the opposite true, no. The US military these days is designed around an expeditionary approach, to be anywhere in the world at a set time. If it were made to defeat the Chinese military do you think we would only have one fleet, and a few divisions station in that area?

The Chinese government does not violate copyrights laws, but chinese merchants do. They are interested in money, and the Chinese government did pass laws serverly reducing copyright violations in 2002, but absolute protection for intellectual property rights is very difficult to enforce. U.S. has the same problem with google and digitizing books.

O.k., so the 2.4 million army is a big number. But if you look at how many people they have, the percentage is rather low. U.S. has a higher percentage, 300 million people 1.3 million army (including reserves), and 1.3 billion 2.4 million, the percentage comes out around .43% (U.S.) to .18% China. Funny how China has never been called a global hedgemony and U.S. has.

As for your China is going to attack U.S. theory, your own argument contradicts. If U.S. is China's best business partner, why would they attack them? It's counter intuitive, at least according to you.

Yes, China does not like Japan, because of the mass murders and genocide they've committed in China during WWII. There are still older people who remeber those days, it's kind of hard for them to forget. The new generation is better, they love Japanese anime and manga. (Yeah!) Chinese cartoons suck.

The only country that China has a hostile relation with is Japan, (i exclueded Taiwan because they are not recognized). While U.S., has an endless list of enemies. They don't need to buy bases around the world nor are they going to, it makes no sense and it's a waste of money.

Quote:
As for military tech 10 years huh? I'm not trying to say Chinese are stupid but some of you aren't making any sense. Riddle me this: You say America constantly twist its information and lies to other countries to get its way, but you believe it when it says something favorable? The last military purchases the Chinese made were last year and most of that was imported from Russia. So, what this means, is to catch up to the tech level America is at in ten years, China would have to embark on a major military build up and spend copious amounts of its money to do so. Is that militarism not hostile in itself? When China sets America as its benchmark to beat, that means that it has hostile plans for the future. And if I have learned one thing about China it is this: Chinese aren't dumb and they don't rush things, they are patient and do things for a reason(this is the Chinese government I'm talking about). And thats what is so wrong about it. They don't plan for a war right now or even in the next 5 years. China is preparing for a war a decade or two away and I would think that pretty obvious. It happened in the Korean War when the Chinese helped North Koreans. Most of the Chinese manuevers in the early war were meant to test their skill and tactics against those of an American or European military. Hundreds of thousands of lives were lost to test theories and gauge stengths and weaknesses. Could that happen again? Yes. Before anyone says times change and let bygones be bygones should look at the Chinese situation with Japan. They still can't get passed centuries old differences and still get into international debates over WW2. If China is still angered by thing that happened in WW2, what makes anyone think it doesn't remember the Korean War?
America downsized its military a lot after the Cold War ended, China's has just gotten bigger and bigger. America has destroyed more than half of its cold war era nukes and destroys more every year, China wants to build more(and sell the technology to other countries like Iran). America has embraced the Chinese economy, China has shunned America's. America supports the government in Taiwan, China threatens to destroy it.

O.k. beating another country in tecnology has nothing to do with hostilities towards that nation. During the 20th century the same thing happened wit U.S and Britain and look how it turned out, nothing. The Pentagon release the papers that China will meet U.S. technology, CIA released the thing on Iraq. One time mistake doesn't mean they screw up forever. Everyone makes mistakes every once in a while.

As for the Chinese plan ahead thing, I think you are confusing them with boyscouts. If you look at the retarded people governing China (generally), you would agree with me that they've got nothing. People, especially Americans, have this concept that China is like "super." Ha hah ha. Don't over analyze, they don't have that much. And for fairness's sake, China didn't plan the Korean and Vietnam War.

Quote:
Why should America not be worried about the goings on in China? If the Chinese government didn't have a "dagger" behind their back everytime they shook the hand of the American government it wouldn't be a problem. I am not saying that America is on a high horse, I am just putting out the reasons America and China mutually distrust each other. Everyone was so quick to name the faults of America, and paint China as an innocent nation just trying to get along. When in reality it does as much intrusion into American business as America does in theirs.

American doesn't trust China, that's news to me, and everyone else. Could it be that you are American, and you don't trust China. Just because you are American doesn't mean you represent the U.S.A, nor a Chinese speak for China. If they distrusted each other like Cold War U.S. and U.S.S.R., then maybe. Until then, they tend to be kind of friedly because they are business buddies. :)

I have nothing against China at all. In fact, from what I see it would be a great place to visit and a great culture to experience. But I must say you have forgotten a great many things.
I admit, I have not been to China, but as you said,about the trade issue-China has limits on American goods, America has no limits on Chinese goods. How is that fair. You would think that the higher price of American goods would balace out the fact that more are coming in. I am saying that both countries should have open door policies when it comes to trade, not just one. Here what US congress found to be some of the problems-
" * High tariffs. The average Chinese tariff rate is currently 17% (down from an average rate of 42% in 1996), but tariffs on selected items, such as autos and various agricultural products, can rise to 100% or more.

* Pervasive non-tariff barriers are arbitrarily used to control the level of certain imports into China, including quotas, import licenses, registration and certification requirements, and restrictive technical and sanitary standards (especially in respect to agricultural products).

* Non-transparent trade rules and regulations. China's trade laws and regulations are often secretly formulated, unpublished, unevenly enforced, and may vary across provinces, making it difficult for exporters to determine what rules and regulations apply to their products. In addition, foreign firms find it difficult to gain access to government trade rule-making agencies to appeal new trade rules and regulations.

* Trading rights. China restricts the number and types of entities in China that are allowed to import products into China, which limits the ability of both Chinese and foreign firms in China to obtain imported products. Foreign companies are not permitted to directly engage in trad in China. In addition, trading rights for many agricultural products are given exclusively to Chinese state trading companies, which are directed to import only if there is a domestic shortfall of certain products.

* Distribution rights. Most foreign companies are prohibited from selling their products directly to Chinese consumers.

* Investment restrictions. Chinese officials pressure foreign investors to agree to contract provisions which stipulate technology transfers, exporting a certain share of production, and commitments on local content. Other problems faced by foreign firms in China include the denial of national treatment (i.e., foreign firms are treated less favorably than domestic firms), foreign exchange controls, distribution and marketing restrictions, and the lack of rule of law." -US Congress

And for counterfeit goods here is something from a Harvard Asian Business Conference a few years ago:

"Professor Daniel Chow began the session with a presentation on the development of trademark counterfeiting in China. Trademark counterfeiting involves creating products that are meant to duplicate brand-name products as closely as possible. It is arguably the most common intellectual property violation in China. It is estimated that 15-20% of brand goods in China are counterfeit. The influx of cheap, low quality counterfeits hurts companies both by limiting the market demand for legitimate products and by destroying the goodwill for products that depend on reputations for good quality. This problem has been complicated by the growth of export, as China has now become a leading exporter in a growing global market for counterfeit goods."-Owen Lewis

These are problems, you have to admit. As for a the military. you are right that including reserves, America has a pretty large military. But it is spead all over the world and does as many humanitarian missions as it does military operations. What does China's military do(really I don't know). But from what I do know and what you have said(IE China not having a lot of enemies, mainly Japan and Taiwan and US having a bunch of enemies), why does China need a military with 2.4 million people in it? Truthfully I don't know, do you? Why does China still invest in ballistic missile submarines...there is really only one country that China would have to use subs to get to launch those nukes at(US).
I don't know everything and don't pretend to. I don't pretend to represent all of Americans but just stand up to people that would judge where I live without ever having stepped foot on American soil. You have done the same thing Etherinmeria. How mad would you be if someone slandered your country as much as they do mine? You said that America has many enemies. Of course it has more enemies than China, because it is more far more involved in world affairs than China is for the moment. As it has been pointed out before, China as well as Russia have a tendency to abstain from voting on things pertaining to the UN Security counsel. A wall flower is less likely to get bad attention then someone out on the dancefloor. And thats the point I'm getting at.
Lets put it this way. If you go to a club or party(UN) and there are a bunch of people there(countries). There is a dancefloor and the music is playing, but the majority of the people just sit at the tables and watch who ever is dancing. One guy gets out on the floor and starts to dance, some of his moves are good, but some make his look like a total jackass(US). Some of the other party goers see this and start to make fun of the guy, saying that he is ruining the party and should get off the floor. But he is there because no one else is, and if nobody starts dancing, the party is going to end really quick. Soon a few others join in and start dancing. People start to move from their seats to the edge of the dancefloor. The guy is still trying to get people to dance, some want to, others don't. As time passes he has a few girls and is having some drinks with them. The guys still on the sidlines are mad because he has the girls, and even though they played it safe, and refrained from making fools of themselves, they have nothing to show for it. Another guy(China) starts out on the dancefloor, still wary of the "party guy's" antics. He starts to dance, but not doing the outrageous stuff the other guy does and still thinks that the guy is going a little overboard. But the fact remains, no matter how much people made fun of the party guy for doing outrageous moves, it is people like him that get the party going, because if he doesn't, many of the people that started to dance probably would still be on the wall waiting for their chance to dance. Maybe the guy bumps into others or gets into scuffles as the party progresses, but that has to be expected from one taking as active of a role as he is.
I know thats a pretty big analogy, but I think it pretty much sums up what America's job on the world stage is or maybe should be. To help other countries develop. I here people say that America went to Iraq for oil for example, I did't go to Iraq for oil, I went to help the people there have a better life. And contrary to what the news puts out, they are grateful. The only thing they ask is when we were going to leave, and I had to tell them that I didn't know. They said ok and we talked about something else. We actually made friends with the children and their parents over there. They would bring us bread in the morning, and we would give them Coke, milk, or what ever else we could spare. When we left, many of the local children were crying and it made me happy to see that I had helped someone and protected them. I met many people who's entire families had been killed by Sadam's men and were elated to see him gone. But, I came back home to see everything we had done, twisted into lies and half truths. Then I come and see that many other people in the world think the same thing. I see Italian news trying to say that America fired white phosphorus shells onto women and children in the battle of Fallujah. This is one thing I could deny directly, because I am an Artilleryman that was in that battle directly supervising an ammunition team. I know every round that was fired and when it was. And none were fired onto innocents, mainly because there was no one in the city, and we never fired white phosphorus rounds inside of the city itself, only north of the city three times and south of the city once, and that was it. It is these lies that perpetuate this ongoing dislike for America in general.

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but I am as dedicated to my country as many others are to theirs. Maybe some of my prior comments on China were out of line, but some of them are true. America has its problems and people are all too willing to point them out. But no other country gets as much guff as America does, look all over this message board. I bet any other country has as many, if not more problems than the US, its just that it is never pointed out. For people to say that America's intervention with China's military, economic, and social policies are one sided are wrong and should look at both sides of the picture. Maybe in the future I will have a chance to travel to China, I hope I will, so I can see it for myself. :)

JLSL, I like the dance analogy, it's very good, mind if I use it sometimes? Anyways, China is a communist government, it doesn't play fair and no one can do anything with any kind of violent action. I'm hoping it clapses economically and fix itself through reforms, but that may never happen. There is a lot of negative cultural influence in China, especially with couterfeit goods. 75% of the people are farmers, they don't make a lot of money, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't live a enjoyable life like many Americans. True the intellectual property rights is a huge problem, but there isn't any real practice solution.

And Why does the Chinese government put tariffs, interfere in trade, and others? It's because the officials can get a kickback out of them. Government is so tainted over there is disgusting. Even worse, people have began to accept corruption because it has become so common.

America has chosen to take a lot of responsibility onto itself, but not all the decision are purely altruistic. I'm greatful that you went to Iraq to help, but here is just my thoughts: Bush went to war. History tells us that every president who went to war was reelected. There are some shady business with contractors in Iraq.

And thanks for all your input. It was helpful in developing my perspective on the issue.

Thank you too. I have never had an informed opinion given to me about China, just what I have read.
As for the war in Iraq, let me ask you this-if 250,000 people fight, and die for Iraqi freedom and not oil then what does it matter if a small group of polititians argue about who gets oil? I never saw a cent from Iraqi oil, and I don't care to. In the end maybe people are right, and Bush did do some stuff wrong. But as long as the majority of the American people's hearts are in the right place, what does it matter what he thinks? People say its an illegal war, but what was a better course of action? Leave him there to murder his people(I have seen the aftermath of his attempted genocide, and it is hideous). I think what I'm trying to get at is this. Can't we fight for something because it is the right thing to do? Do the little guys always have to suffer to keep the politicians happy? Does a country's people always have to pay for its leader's mistakes? I don't think they should. That is what I fight for. Genocide shouldn't be allowed to occur. Racism, any intolerance for that matter, shouldn't occur but it does. We are mostly young people here, in their teens and twenties, from all around the world, it is our job to raise the bar and stop this from occuring in the future. :)

LigerZSchnider

LigerZSchnider

Litterbox Trained........

Quote by JLSL And contrary to what the news puts out, they are grateful. The only thing they ask is when we were going to leave, and I had to tell them that I didn't know. They said ok and we talked about something else. We actually made friends with the children and their parents over there. They would bring us bread in the morning, and we would give them Coke, milk, or what ever else we could spare. When we left, many of the local children were crying and it made me happy to see that I had helped someone and protected them. I met many people who's entire families had been killed by Sadam's men and were elated to see him gone. But, I came back home to see everything we had done, twisted into lies and half truths. Then I come and see that many other people in the world think the same thing. I see Italian news trying to say that America fired white phosphorus shells onto women and children in the battle of Fallujah. This is one thing I could deny directly, because I am an Artilleryman that was in that battle directly supervising an ammunition team. I know every round that was fired and when it was. And none were fired onto innocents, mainly because there was no one in the city, and we never fired white phosphorus rounds inside of the city itself, only north of the city three times and south of the city once, and that was it. It is these lies that perpetuate this ongoing dislike for America in general.


Ah......the "Haji Coke and Pepsi".......... :)

See? No one hears about this kind of stuff. We had locals come in our FOB and set up shops; we had a video store and a take out store. We posted a guard there, not for us but actually for the store owner! I have always said America have good people, but she has her knuckleheads too. And if you catch one who can speak english good, man get ready for some fun! I think about those guys from time to time.....since we allowed them to set up shop there, I wonder if the next group of guys allowed them to be there too. Funny thing is, those guys risk their lives to help make our stay there a little better. Now thats cool...... ;)

I realize that America may be a "little too involved" outside her house than inside, but someone else said it better, She tried to stay out of TWO world wars, and got dragged into. Now, she is in everybodys' business so that she won't get dragged in again.

"In the absence of orders, find something and kill it" - Erwin Rommel

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