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charaznableamurorei

charaznableamurorei

patron saint of doujinshi

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MT Character Classes Contest (whew, character limit )


I have to be honest here... I have some problems about making the voting threads for the MT Character Classes Contest... It's kinda about the "popularity vs. quality" question... 'hope ya get where I'm driving at... 'but a lot of points have already been mentioned here in the NewWaveProject thread about this prob: http://forum.minitokyo.net/showthread/16424/

Help how to go around that prob? ... I like the voting system on the monthly contest thing Terra-chan proposed here...

Quote by Terra-chanBut the contest on the forum I know doesn't only have ONE category to win in. It has 3.
popular - How many people find your work interesting? (And how many friends will vote for you to some extent)
ART - Which image actually has the best art composition and elements?
CONCEPT - Which image concept is most unique and interesting?

... but how could it be applied to the voting threads for the MT Chara Contest...?

Thanks for the suggestions... all are welcomed! ... and yes, I am so disorganized and confused... and 'really sorry to have only raised this thing today... and 'sorry, everyone, for not keeping up with the GB posts and everything... I owe you all lots! Support what? You know what!

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  • Apr 05, 2005

artgeek12

artgeek12

the curious Art Fox

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Ooooo, that's a tough one. BELIEVE ME!

The solution I came up with is similar to that above but slightly modified. What I did was choose judges (an odd number) and had them rate things according to a set of questions relating too design and expression. This works for me cause It's like the judging done at the Olympics. Not perfect but it works.

I'd opt out of the "popular" category only because those that have lots of friends would obviously dominate that one.

i might have a few more suggestions so let me sleep on that one ;)

Artgeek12 - Proud member of NewWaveProject!
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Mordin

Mordin

The Wise One

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i don't necessary like the oligarchy approach in judging, but it seems people don't like the subjective bias of democracy. I would suggest you need a check and balance in the voting, because I shudder to think elites are the one that should decide what is art and what art isn't. The oligarchy panel can do the artistic score and the judging, then it should also include popular votes in the final decision. Like a two part socres, we give both equal weight, so the average of the two will decide the score for that particular entry. I don't know if this is practical enough, but it would be more fair in my mind.

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  • Apr 05, 2005

DayBreak

DayBreak

The Prince Is Dead

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The easy way to do the judging is this.
You judge it your self..or hire some well-known people to judge it for you.
like..hiring mods/admins would be a great help.
so..i advised you to get the mods to help the judging, not other people.
Just my opinion.
*cough*God, Judgement Day...Is at hand...What will happen?
Will earth be shattared into pieces? or...Just a mere image of its self?
< weird..
but random XD

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i have such good eyes for spotting talent *-* it never failed me -0- cept for the time when i picked bromit to be staff -0- -Queen Saki

mdntdragon

mdntdragon

Dark Dragon---Ruler of the night

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Quote by Mordini don't necessary like the oligarchy approach in judging, but it seems people don't like the subjective bias of democracy. I would suggest you need a check and balance in the voting, because I shudder to think elites are the one that should decide what is art and what art isn't. The oligarchy panel can do the artistic score and the judging, then it should also include popular votes in the final decision. Like a two part socres, we give both equal weight, so the average of the two will decide the score for that particular entry. I don't know if this is practical enough, but it would be more fair in my mind.


kind of like our presidential elections

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Frosty

Frosty

: One Luv :

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hmm.. looks like we are gonna have a judging problem.. XP I was gonna say the same thing as what Shadowdude suggested. ^^

You judge it yourself. *since u r the one that started this whole fun event* ^^
then get the mods *that didnt punch in an entry* to judge. ^^

i was gonna add how many feedback they get but.. thats not fair to some of the really ones that got over look so u really cant use that to determine the best looking one. XP

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artgeek12

artgeek12

the curious Art Fox

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This topic of "fair judging" is as heated as the topic of abortion and equally circular. No matter what answer you come up with, there will always be those that feel it wasn't fair. That is the reality of comparing / judging anything. If you think about how the world has decided it's leaders you'll realize that bias and personal opinion are always large factors in the decision process. There is no escaping it no matter what counter measures or how many checks and balances you incorporate.

So Char, collect as much data as possible and you decide what is the best way to go about this. Whatever you decide, we must respect since this whole project is your "child". Don't overly worry about trying to be fair and pleasing everyone. It's just not possible. Like Spock said in the Wraith of Khan....

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Artgeek12 - Proud member of NewWaveProject!
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Anjeile

Anjeile

Dancing In The Storm

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hmm...i think the entries should be judged by their art and concept. then, like mordin says, "like a two part score, we give both equal weight, so the average of the two will decide the score for that particular entry." we just take the scores for both art and concept of the drawing, add them up and divide them by two. also, judging by popularity is sometimes not fair as, like artgeek says, "I'd opt out of the "popular" category only because those that have lots of friends would obviously dominate that one." i totally agree. because this would cause dissatisfaction amongst members of mt.

EDIT: artgeek is right. no matter how the outcome will be, there will still be some people who will be dissatisfied. trying to please everyone is just not possible, no matter how hard u try. charaz, no matter what kind of method u wanna use to judge the doujins, we'll respect ur decision, seeing as it is ur idea. i wish u the best of luck in this matter. *bows*

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  • Apr 05, 2005

DayBreak

DayBreak

The Prince Is Dead

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That is why all the more reason for you to be the only judge.
Sense,
1.You are really creative person with a creative mind.
2. You seem to be extremely fair about people works.
3.I trust you to be the Judge.
4. doujinsh FOR life.

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i have such good eyes for spotting talent *-* it never failed me -0- cept for the time when i picked bromit to be staff -0- -Queen Saki

CLAMPchic

CLAMPchic

I'm just me

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Quote by AnjeileEDIT: artgeek is right. no matter how the outcome will be, there will still be some people who will be dissatisfied. trying to please everyone is just not possible, no matter how hard u try. charaz, no matter what kind of method u wanna use to judge the doujins, we'll respect ur decision, seeing as it is ur idea. i wish u the best of luck in this matter. *bows*

This is very true...no matter what, someone most likely won't be happy.
I agree with artgeek about opting out of the popular category as well...I mean, it just seems that those with more friends would be rewarded more, whereas those who are more shy and less known would be at a disadvantage.
Ideally, it would be nice for Charaz to judge, but at the same time, did anyone think about how much work that would be putting on her? I mean, knowing that you have the final say is one thing, but having complete power over it may make her uncomfortable. And there were quite a few entries...that's a lot of work, plus whatever else she has to do outside of MT. I think that it may be a good idea to get a committee of anonymous, unbiased judges to help...with the categories being something like Art and Concept. So each of the judges would have their say, then somehow get a popular vote in there, but maybe with Charaz oversseeing it all, having the final say? Or maybe all I've said has been nonsensical babblem in which case you should all ignore it.
I wish I had something insightful to say that could help you, but I'm really not sure what to say...but if you do need/want help judging, I'll volunteer. *raises hand* It's always cool to look at other people's original art, and I've been told that I'm pretty good with being nonbiased and fair. Again, sorry I couldn't really help...

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  • Apr 05, 2005

charaznableamurorei

charaznableamurorei

patron saint of doujinshi

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... do you realize that I am really crying now... and my officemate is giving me tissue and asking me what's wrong? It's so embarassing... I'm getting worked out over something that is entirely composed of bits and bytes...


I'm crying... because I'm so happy... not for the trust everyone's giving me, but because I just realized... the unbelievable outpouring of support of doujinshi artists and doujinshi lovers for the contest... unbelievable! What visions! What passion! They are truly the actors/actresses of this stage, and I am just a happy janitress...

... but, based on what everyone's been saying, isn't it sad? It's so sad! How people seem to have lost faith in the MT membership? It really saddens me... does everyone here feel that it's a "friends=art fav" out here in MT?

i don't want to believe that yet... I am so naive in this... no... we set out on the Project to have fun and friendly competition/cooperation... to put visions on paper... to push people to passion again...

i wish to believe in people, sincerely. I want to believe that MT members can still go beyond themselves and make a choice beyond themselves... I know this is getting nowhere, but I couldn't stop myself typing these silly things!

Edit: I don't think I can respond in a very proper manner now... gosh, I am really crying now... I am so happy... (*leaves comp and goes to bathroom for a while...)

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  • Apr 05, 2005

Anjeile

Anjeile

Dancing In The Storm

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Quote by CLAMPchicIdeally, it would be nice for Charaz to judge, but at the same time, did anyone think about how much work that would be putting on her? I mean, knowing that you have the final say is one thing, but having complete power over it may make her uncomfortable. And there were quite a few entries...that's a lot of work, plus whatever else she has to do outside of MT.

mm, clampchic does have a point there. if we left it for charaz alone to decide, that would be putting the whole weight of the competition on her. the judging, decision-making, plus a lot of entries equals a lot of pressure and burden. espscially since charaz has a life of her own and she is working. i know we all trust charaz's decision and judgement, but would it be fair to let her carry this burden all on her own? i agree with letting charaz having the final say in this competition, since it is her brainchild. but we should elect some judges who are fair and unbiased to help her along the way. this would undeniably ease the burden on her shoulders.

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  • Apr 05, 2005

belmikry

Retired Moderator

belmikry

belly-button

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Quote by Anjeile
EDIT: artgeek is right. no matter how the outcome will be, there will
still be some people who will be dissatisfied. trying to please
everyone is just not possible, no matter how hard u try. charaz, no
matter what kind of method u wanna use to judge the doujins, we'll
respect ur decision, seeing as it is ur idea. i wish u the best of luck
in this matter. *bows*


true enough- no way to satisfy everyone...

Quote by Mordini don't necessary like the oligarchy approach in judging, but it seems
people don't like the subjective bias of democracy. I would suggest you
need a check and balance in the voting, because I shudder to think
elites are the one that should decide what is art and what art isn't.
The oligarchy panel can do the artistic score and the judging, then it
should also include popular votes in the final decision. Like a two
part socres, we give both equal weight, so the average of the two will
decide the score for that particular entry. I don't know if this is
practical enough, but it would be more fair in my mind.

I like your idea Mordin- I think neutral voters are also a good idea, that hard part is finding them.

First of all, we need to find people who will judge the art in different categories.

ie: best drawn, best detail, best concept, best CGing, most original art, most funny, most dramatic, etc... I think the more categories you have will limit the 'faving' of certain members. [ie: if a member was faving a friends work which was detailed and dramatic, she/he wouldn't vote for funniest, etc...

also I think we need to have more faith in MT members. If anyone just starts faving over friends, its shame on them, not the artist/doujinshi contest. No matter what there will always be some favouring, but I think with categories, elected judges etc.

WE could also have a peer election, ie MT'ers who participated in the contest would have to select a winner for each category too, and they cannot choose themselves.

so maybe a collaberation of MOD votes, elected MT'ers, Doujinshi contest voters, and maybe just random votes will give alot of variation?... I think if we found a way to annonymously vote as well, no one would be worried about upsetting a friend/artist etc.

just some thoughts :)

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Anjhurin

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Anjhurin

ARIA sanchou

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hum maybe the whole idea of a prize is pointless.... :) i don't know, the thing is that every member who get a submission in the contest should have a reward, as well as those who colored it.
i mean if it's only yumiko onee-chan voting, it's pointless. she's not a doujin artist, and though i would say she's fair, some ppl will be hurt. what i suggest is every member of the club vote, as they almost all took part in the contest, and i guess they'll be fair to each other (plus they are the one to know about skills and all). okay they might vote for their own submission, but if you make a 3 drawings vote (like the 3 you'd put first in each category, or the best 3 of any category), that would be kinda okay??
hum okay well it'd be best if all MT could take part in the voting.... i got that, but i don't know how to do anything about the "popularity" stuff or "elite voting". both don't sound good to me ^_^'

Quote by belmikryso maybe a collaberation of MOD votes, elected MT'ers, Doujinshi contest voters, and maybe just random votes will give alot of variation?... I think if we found a way to annonymously vote as well, no one would be worried about upsetting a friend/artist etc.
just some thoughts :)

yeah bel-san you're right about that, i thing this is a great idea... the anonymous voting could be done via sending PM to chara (but sorting them out is gonna be like hell, and she's busy aye??) or maybe have a notepad sheet on the yahoo mailbox, that every voter puts its vote on, and update it (problem is double voting, but i hope we won't have that XP )

*gives chara onee-chan a big huggs* take it cool okay, we're all helping for that *hands cookies to everyone* the contest is soon over XP

oh btw, what about part II prizes (am i the only one who captionned?? eheh the only winner?? :pacman: )

  • Apr 05, 2005

Ayamael

Ayamael

yumemitai

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wow... this one is a toughy chara... i was wondering how the winners would be decided myself... all the previous post are actually quite good... gosh, i don't think i'd want to be in your shoes right now lil' sis ~_~ hum, terra-chan's categories sound ok...

i thought the idea of having a jury of mods and of people who know about doujins yet didn't participate in the contest could do it... but then, not everyone gets the chance of voicing their opinion, which sucks...

maybe, the popular category wouldn't be so bad... as long as the rules are clear to everyone, that is, that we don't vote for someone's doujin just coz' they are our friends... (the anonymous vote here would be such a great idea...)
we leave this category to everyone on MT...

for Art and Concept, maybe those two should be judged by a jury... mods plus people who know about arts and doujins...

honestly, i really don't know how the voting could be done without being biased in some way... as it was already said, it will be impossible to please everyone... but if it's done fairly, i doubt there should be a problem...

anyways, sorry for my current lask of inspiration, and if ever you need help, just ask ;)

Terra-chan

Terra-chan

Crazy Lazy Workaholic

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Well I'd like to say that the contest I mentioned as quoted by charaz originally started being voted on in a forum like this. There where 2 threads, one thread for Art and one thread for Concept. It was rather clear that people generally voted for popular people, but art was always a factor.

And what are you talking about on MT? Part of the way this community works is if you find someone with work that you like you add them to your friendlist. So you make friends with people who you admire the work they do and if you vote for them it's because you like their work.

There IS no way to scratch out bias, but the contest I was referring to was trying to do that with the "Art" and "Concept" categories. Because something can easily be a beautiful image, but have poor concept and something can have great Concept but poor art.

If you want to work as a way of averaging the scores in the end for an ultimate winner I think that would be awesome, but the winner in Art and Concept would still be winners in their own right, even if someone else ends up with a winning average.

If we could manage to get a php system like the contest I know (you can find it here) It has a voting system where you get a list of thumbs of all the entries and choose which ones interest you ~ This gets put in as a "popular" vote, because they are striking image that catch your attention in some way. Then at the next stage it shows you the full-sized images and asks you to judge which of the ones you liked from afar have the best art and/or concept individually. So it's easier on the voters because they don't have to just choose one that they like and in the end, almost every gets at least one vote ^_^ Some people just try to get votes period when entering the contest and they're happy because they do.

If we had to choose only one favorite in a forum poll people will feel guilty having to pass over someone they also think is good, but they chose another over it.

If anyone has webspace and/or php coding capabilities it would really be nice if we could work out an offsite system of voting... ^_^

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SilentMasamune

SilentMasamune

I'm all washed up. . .

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I wish I could've submitted my work. I'm sure you would like it, but I haven't drawn anything since last August, and I don't know how good my hands are nowadays. I've been doing some vectors lately, but I hope to show you guys some of my artwork soon. Don't worry. I may have not been active, but I will play my part soon enough.

As for suggesting a way to vote, have the participants vote on the work, basing the artwork out of about 20 points. On a scale of 1 to 10, base concept and detail. So concept would be worth as much as 10 points and detail would be worth as much as 10 points. Then after all the points are totaled, divide that by the number of participants who voted on the work and you get a grand total. Then maybe you can pick the best...I don't know...16 to move on, depending on how many participants are in there. This is only a suggestion. If this helps, let me know.

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  • Apr 05, 2005

Anjhurin

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Anjhurin

ARIA sanchou

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hum just random post.... i wonder if anyone will be able to vote anyway !! i meself can't make up my mind, there's like more than 10 submissions i'd like to see win, so how could i vote?? ^_^'
really too much great art there.

back to the voting system, there's been some good propositions in this thread, it'd be good if all the doujin artists that submitted could take a look at this thread and give their opinion (so we'll know which way they'd like better)
i'm gonna PM them XP . then we can decide what we'll do

  • Apr 05, 2005

levezzali

levezzali

Purge Existence

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hm... I could't read all the posts, because I am in the job right now... anyway, I liked the multi category system.... reminds me of carnival in february.... Alegory note .... 10 ..... evolution ... 10 batery ... 8.5 ... *and the crowd goes crazy*

but well, really i find it thebest way of judging... but I also think it would be nice if the members could vote, because it would be more democratic... but also very complicated to do in the pages... lie, in every drawing there would be that poll system with the categories, and members that voted on one would have to vote in the others too.... beause it would not be fair to vote in some and not in others....

Purified Existence of a Lost Soul

... ok ... I am not a that serious person !! XD

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Do it by quality :) That is the only thing I could think of :)
I'll go now :)
I'm not good with choices T_T

  • Apr 06, 2005
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^ Ah well.

Yeah, can't really take bias out of the polls.

You could always say, "Hey, it's happening in the gallery; why won't it happen here?" But really, ratings of gallery submissions haven't enough pull to affect the MT community. Wallpapers, scans and doujinshi were, are, and will be taken for granted.

This is an official MT contest, loves. It's in a whole new level, miles away from the fav-system of the gallery.

Back to the topic.
No one in the right mind will vote for a butt-ugly rendition just because the artist is his/her friend. That would mean he/she has pretty bad/weird/alternative taste and that's like, self-humiliation.

So yeah, what I'm saying is: Don't exclude any member of the MT community from participating in the polls.

charaznableamurorei

charaznableamurorei

patron saint of doujinshi

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... sorry! I ran into some unexpected work crap, and 'will only get to type in quick notes... but thanks, everyone, for the input! I owe you all lots now! ^^

I'll really, really, really try to update this collated system thing tomorrow... curse you, email from boss!


Proposed Voting System for MT Character Classes Contest ver.1.0
(input largely based on everyone's ideas herein... big thanks and hugs!)


Three sets of winners! Three sets of incentives! Pardon my poor Spanish! Please correct it, please! ^^

First set: Voice of the MT People - La Voz del MT Pueblo
-- poll to be done on thread/s
-- list with links to entries (a *huge* list, btw... 'hope everyone has the time to browse 'em all) posted on thread/s
-- MT people/voters can post their votes on thread/s OR PM their votes to me if they're too shy (no worries, I'm a strong gal... bring it on! ^^)
-- a small guide for voters on how to judge the doujins will be posted on thread
-- will represent the "popular" aspect

Second set: Voice of the Artists-Peers - La Voz del Las Artistas-Igualas
-- polls to be done via email
-- MT doujinshi artists who got entries in the contest will be asked to cast their votes; criteria will be based on artistic/technical aspects
-- will represent the "technical" aspect

Third Set: Voice of the MT Arbiters - La Voz del MT Arbitros
-- MT moderators will be asked to vote on doujins based on 'best concept' criteria
-- will represent the "concept" aspect


Incentives!
Winners of Voice of the MT People - La Voz del MT Pueblo
:: scans/artbooks as pledged by Nuriko and the mods!

Winners of Voice of the Artists-Peers - La Voz del Las Artistas-Igualas
:: doujinshi will be converted into *awesome* wallpapers by invited MT wallpaper artistes!

Winners of Voice of the MT Arbiters - La Voz del MT Arbitros
:: of course! Isn't being recognized as winners by the MT moderators an esteemed prize? ^^


Sorry if this is still unclear... of course, any critique is still welcomed... 'will repair it tomorrow! sorry, sorry...

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  • Apr 07, 2005

Anjhurin

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Anjhurin

ARIA sanchou

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well it's pretty clear to me, sounds like a good system (well you have to make compromises, or we could debate on the perfect thing for days and never get done)
about the peer voting system (art / technique), even if i'm not concerned, what precisely do you mean by "via email" ??
ahah still nothing about part II caption writing in there ..... ~_~ gaah the only part i could take part in, is not given prizes :sweat: anyway i don't care, some of the artists liked me captions, so it's okay, plus the art is so good, i'm greatly satisfied XP

good job chara, you're the most crazy girl around here, but this project is finally near the end. see you next year for the same thing right?? we should change the theme though

oh yeah just thinking of it, how long will the voting be?? 1 week so everyone can have time to vote, or less ??

  • Apr 07, 2005

levezzali

levezzali

Purge Existence

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Quote by Anjhurin... what precisely do you mean by "via email" ??
ahah still nothing about part II caption writing in there ..... ~_~
gaah the only part i could take part in, is not given prizes :sweat:
anyway i don't care, some of the artists liked me captions ...
oh yeah just thinking of it, how long will the voting be?? 1 week so
everyone can have time to vote, or less ??

hehehe you're quite right about the captions, it's a shame not every one got/made them XD

but that bothered me too charaz, the via e-mail part... don't you think it would be a bit messy? would'nt it be better if you had the pages and the thumbs and them you njust voted?... well, I gotta make and organogram, a drawing, or a puppet theather, cause I can't say this in words... specially in english... I'll probably Pm that for you so you can understand it better... k?

Purified Existence of a Lost Soul

... ok ... I am not a that serious person !! XD

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