THE PHILOSOPHERS THREAD

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UnknownFact

UnknownFact

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Well, let's be serious 4 a while. Let's write some philosophic questions here and we will try to answer them here. That way, we will be lookin for wisdom by ourselves. Just take it seriously!

I think that be a man does not mean being a human. Human contains man, but man does not contain human. Why? A man or a woman becames human thanks to civilization. Civilization means not living like animals do, since we have reason and morals. And like greeks said, a hero must "have" sofrosine: everything in measure. And since we created laws and rules to ourselves to contain those body and wild instincts, we get that reasonable caracteristic. So, if you deny morals or accept to live like a Dom Juan, you're refusing your humanity. And become another simple creature, like all of them. You are actually the same thing than a cocroach or a pineapple...
So, the problem is: Can a human live by it's biological instincts, denying measure, and still be a human?

Please participate you smart people!!

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levitan

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well, depends on how you define being human... the way the writer says; it seems that humanity is something to do with civilisation and society.... if that is so: then a man NOT from civilisation is not human..if he is not so, then must he be given human rights? i think that the writer's passage is inadequate

well, i believe that man is born with morals. if he was not, why did civilisation (of men) impose morals upon themselves if being moral was not of human nature?

and i think, yes, a man who disregards his morals is bad, but i do not believe that he has disregarded his humanity... because, for one thing, to be human is a thing of the species.. i ithnk

i dont know.. sorry.. im not feeling philosophical at the moment..keke^-^

nospheratu

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I think that dead is a gift of life??? I explain mineself. I you think about it is true, just like this, to die we hace to live, and is the only thing we have for sure in this live. but if we have to live to die, then the life is just a punishment. Well, somthing like that... you know...
Any one agrees with me????

Minato

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Actually...death can be a reward after a long life, can't it?...and besides, I've always believed humans to be lower than they think they are.

...i think I'll ask something new...
...did God create Man? Or did Man create God?

nospheratu

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Now wath??? that a good question, but we can answer it.... well i told you, I'm catolic, but that dosn't care to much. I love all this things... WE rocks!

Minato

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Yes, we do rock, but can someone please give their opinion on this?...

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I hate to be the cynic here, but these pseudo-philosophical threads piss me off. The term "human" denotes our species, homo sapien, nothing more. Regardless whether or not we live by what ever standards you or any past civilization define as humane, we still remain human. A canine or "dog" could walk around meowing, it'd still be a dog. Over analyzing a simple fact to the point of turning it into something philosophical when it is not is stupid and annoying, especially when you label it so.

Edit:
did God create man or did man create God? Now see that's an actual question, not some over analyization. I like questions. In my opinion it is more of a mutual creation, God is a term we use to describe the unknownn harmony between thee infinite existance that we are so closely bound. I'm a firm believer in the concept of the universal mind, we are all part of one functioning, infinite being. A piece of God does not merely lie within us, we in fact are God. I think that this core belief spawned the use of the term "God" and lead to him, her... it's portrayl as the divine creator and judge we are so familar with today. I too am Catholic though.

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  • Apr 24, 2005

LastDinosaur

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Quote by xsummerxraindid God create man or did man create God?

Well, man created the belief of God, someone had to.. or noone would know He existed. It would be impossible for Him to come down and tell us Himself, so yes.. man did create the idea of God. Whether God exists or not cannot be argued, cause noone knows, noone can prove or disprove Him.

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punker0017

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Quote by levitanwell, depends on how you define being human... the way the writer says;
it seems that humanity is something to do with civilisation and
society.... if that is so: then a man NOT from civilisation is not
human..if he is not so, then must he be given human rights? i think
that the writer's passage is inadequate well, i believe that man is
born with morals. if he was not, why did civilisation (of men) impose
morals upon themselves if being moral was not of human nature?
and i think, yes, a man who disregards his morals is bad, but i do not
believe that he has disregarded his humanity... because, for one thing,
to be human is a thing of the species.. i ithnk
i dont know.. sorry.. im not feeling philosophical at the
moment..keke^-^

I believe this to be inadequate. Morals are not human nature, I think that they are a product of a reasoning mind. People aren't born with morals, they are learned through cognition and reasoning. And what do you mean that a man who disregards his morals is bad? What if a man has bad morals? What then?

Quote by LastDinosaur

Quote by xsummerxraindid God create man or did man create God?


Well, man created the belief of God, someone had to.. or noone would
know He existed. It would be impossible for Him to come down and tell
us Himself, so yes.. man did create the idea of God. Whether God exists
or not cannot be argued, cause noone knows, noone can prove or disprove
Him.

I may not be able to disprove his existence, but I can sure as hell prove that The Bible is bullshit.

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  • Apr 25, 2005

LastDinosaur

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Quote: I believe this to be inadequate. Morals are not human nature, I think that they are a product of a reasoning mind. People aren't born with morals, they are learned through cognition and reasoning. And what do you mean that a man who disregards his morals is bad? What if a man has bad morals? What then?

Morals are made by society.. but they're made for a reason, if everyone killed everyone else.. well, there'd only be one man left standing. Thats not good, morals are there to keep us alive. People allways want, everyone has greed, without morals.. people will just take whatever they want, no matter what it costs. It would only lead to chaos.

Quote: I may not be able to disprove his existence, but I can sure as hell prove that The Bible is bullshit.

The bible is only a book written by man, whatever it says, it has nothing to do with the words of god.. merely just mans interpretion of it. I havent read it, so i dont know what it says.. im sure it says a lot how people should follow the 10 commandments, which would be nice if they did.

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Quote by punker0017
I may not be able to disprove his existence, but I can sure as hell
prove that The Bible is bullshit.

Let's hear it.

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  • Apr 25, 2005

LastDinosaur

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Quote by xsummerxrain

Quote by punker0017
I may not be able to disprove his existence, but I can sure as hell
prove that The Bible is bullshit.

Let's hear it.


Im sure a book written 2000 years ago will have some errors.. specially the ones that relate to scientific fact.. the bible still says that god created man, (if you believe that, i mean no offence) but by scientific reasoning, thats imposible... the way and time period god created the world makes no sence, but its still possible that he created it.. just not the way the bible says, cause you have to take in consideration things like evolution and the big bang.

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UnknownFact

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Quote by punker0017

Quote by levitanwell, depends on how you define being human... the way
the writer says;
it seems that humanity is something to do with civilisation and
society.... if that is so: then a man NOT from civilisation is not
human..if he is not so, then must he be given human rights? i think
that the writer's passage is inadequate well, i believe that man is
born with morals. if he was not, why did civilisation (of men) impose
morals upon themselves if being moral was not of human nature?
and i think, yes, a man who disregards his morals is bad, but i do not
believe that he has disregarded his humanity... because, for one thing,
to be human is a thing of the species.. i ithnk
i dont know.. sorry.. im not feeling philosophical at the
moment..keke^-^


I believe this to be inadequate. Morals are not human nature, I think
that they are a product of a reasoning mind. People aren't born with
morals, they are learned through cognition and reasoning. And what do
you mean that a man who disregards his morals is bad? What if a man has
bad morals? What then?

Quote by LastDinosaur

Quote by xsummerxraindid God create man or did man
create God?


Well, man created the belief of God, someone had to.. or noone would
know He existed. It would be impossible for Him to come down and tell
us Himself, so yes.. man did create the idea of God. Whether God exists
or not cannot be argued, cause noone knows, noone can prove or disprove
Him.


I may not be able to disprove his existence, but I can sure as hell
prove that The Bible is bullshit.

Well, bad morals does not exist (that's what I think). There can be just a taught lying over the morals of the person, that can change them, but "bad morals" has no sense. Morals are the group of stuff that shows the man what he wants and how to get it. If you want to kill somedoby to be rich and be "happy", you're immoral.

Well, you say that The Bible is bullshit?? Well, in first place, have you read it?? have you looked information about it?? Or what you know is just the "information" that you receive just like that?? (TV, radio, journal.............)?
Well, in this case, I will just say something about The Bible. If you don't know The Bible's purpose, the main objective of his writing, everything you say about it could be wrong...4 example, if you think that ice cream is made for taking a bath, when you say that it is ineffective, it's because you don't know that ice cream is actually made for eating...
The Bible's main objective, according to deep studies, is God's desire to have a personal relationship with each one of us. There's no willing 4 religion or something like that.
There are people that think they know, but they don't know. You can be one of those, I can be one of those too.
I'm just proposing more information, so that this can become more rich.

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LastDinosaur

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UnknownFact.. i would like to hear your opinion on the post i made before you, i think it may have something to do with what you just posted.

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UnknownFact

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Quote by punker0017

Quote by levitanwell, depends on how you define being human... the way
the writer says;
it seems that humanity is something to do with civilisation and
society.... if that is so: then a man NOT from civilisation is not
human..if he is not so, then must he be given human rights? i think
that the writer's passage is inadequate well, i believe that man is
born with morals. if he was not, why did civilisation (of men) impose
morals upon themselves if being moral was not of human nature?
and i think, yes, a man who disregards his morals is bad, but i do not
believe that he has disregarded his humanity... because, for one thing,
to be human is a thing of the species.. i ithnk
i dont know.. sorry.. im not feeling philosophical at the
moment..keke^-^


I believe this to be inadequate. Morals are not human nature, I think
that they are a product of a reasoning mind. People aren't born with
morals, they are learned through cognition and reasoning. And what do
you mean that a man who disregards his morals is bad? What if a man has
bad morals? What then?

Quote by LastDinosaur

Quote by xsummerxraindid God create man or did man
create God?


Well, man created the belief of God, someone had to.. or noone would
know He existed. It would be impossible for Him to come down and tell
us Himself, so yes.. man did create the idea of God. Whether God exists
or not cannot be argued, cause noone knows, noone can prove or disprove
Him.


I may not be able to disprove his existence, but I can sure as hell
prove that The Bible is bullshit.

Well, bad morals does not exist (that's what I think). There can be just a taught lying over the morals of the person, that can change them, but "bad morals" has no sense. Morals are the group of stuff that shows the man what he wants and how to get it. If you want to kill somedoby to be rich and be "happy", you're immoral.

Well, you say that The Bible is bullshit?? Well, in first place, have you read it?? have you looked information about it?? Or what you know is just the "information" that you receive just like that?? (TV, radio, journal.............)?
Well, in this case, I will just say something about The Bible. If you don't know The Bible's purpose, the main objective of his writing, everything you say about it could be wrong...4 example, if you think that ice cream is made for taking a bath, when you say that it is ineffective, it's because you don't know that ice cream is actually made for eating...
The Bible's main objective, according to deep studies, is God's desire to have a personal relationship with each one of us. There's no willing 4 religion or something like that.
There are people that think they know, but they don't know. You can be one of those, I can be one of those too.
I'm just proposing more information, so that this can become more rich.

Quote by LastDinosaur

Quote by xsummerxrain

Quote by punker0017
I may not be able to disprove his existence, but I can sure as hell
prove that The Bible is bullshit.

Let's hear it.


Im sure a book written 2000 years ago will have some errors.. specially
the ones that relate to scientific fact.. the bible still says that god
created man, (if you believe that, i mean no offence) but by scientific
reasoning, thats imposible... the way and time period god created the
world makes no sence, but its still possible that he created it.. just
not the way the bible says, cause you have to take in consideration
things like evolution and the big bang.

Clac!! Wrong information!!! (don't worry, is not your fault). The Bible was not written 2000 years ago. It finished being written 2000 years ago. It was written during a 4000 years period. So, the fact that 41 authors wrote it and most of them didn't know eachother (except for the apostols and some patriarchs) and that there is no contratiction on this text, is not the work of chance. What i'm saying is that as we cannot say it is the truth, we cannot say it isn't.
LastDinosaur, Science prove God's existence. As you learn that the biological and bio-quimical structures are more complicated than astronomic ones, you start to think that the number 10 cannot become 256,766... just like that. When you analyse the Biblical texts having a good amount of scientific information and no prejudices, you see that a big part of science is included in the Bible. Job already knew that Earth was a sphere, and he said that inside of it, there was "fire". Fire makes us think about high temperature, and not combustion, because he didn't know that fire was combustion, just something hot. So, you must know that many expressions of the Bible have a symbological meaning. And to proper analyse them, you must have a lot of knowledge in history. And because there's a lot of us that don't have that amount of information and knowledge, churches were made, to help us in or way to understand those texts. Because in a church, there is not just you, there are 1000 people, 4 example. 2 minds think better than 1...
And, there's another aspect of this book. Spiritual matters can just be understood spiritually, if your spirit is asleep, there are a lot of things you won't understand: like how can a lovefull God exist if there is al ot of suffering in this world. Well, God is a spirit, so his love is spiritual (Timoteo 1:7 (in spanish, don't know how to say it in english)) then it can't be determined by circumstances or physiological needs.....
Don't say "yes" and don't say "no". "does God exist?" is not a yes/no question.
Last Dinosaur, big bang and evolution are not contradictory with the Bible. The Bible talks about evolution. Don't think it's contradictory because people say so. And there's something that makes me i don't know... Big bang is just a theory. So, because it is a theory, it's not the absolute truth, it's a possibility with VERY high chances, because of galaxy movements and other stuff. But there is a problematic over there: gravitation changes matter direction. so, please don't say "yes" and don't say "no" if there is not a yes/no question: just say "I think that...." and, if possible, justify your arguments. I'm trying to do it.

xsummerxrain, in philosophical terms, "human" is not homo sapiens sapiens, because homo sapiens sapiens is just a mammal, and we are not just mammals because we have reason and morals. (ask Kant, or Sartre...). In scientifical terms, a human is an homo sapiens sapiens, yes. But in philosophical terms, Human is something else. Humanity defines not the group of us, but our quality. We are the only species that can accumulate his progress. Virtue is something else we have to threat. Resuming: read Freud. :D

That's what I think. May the Force be with you.

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LastDinosaur

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Quote: Clac!! Wrong information!!! (don't worry, is not your fault). The Bible was not written 2000 years ago. It finished being written 2000 years ago. It was written during a 4000 years period. So, the fact that 41 authors wrote it and most of them didn't know eachother (except for the apostols and some patriarchs) and that there is no contratiction on this text, is not the work of chance. What i'm saying is that as we cannot say it is the truth, we cannot say it isn't.


I never said the Bible was a bunch of lies.. i merely assumed that the bible was still saying things like creationism and all that, which is scientifically impossible.. Cant be 100% sure evolution is true either, but its more possilble than creationism for sure. From what i've heard, the bible is a bunch of stories that try to prove god, excuse me if im wrong. If so, it is merely a storybook then..

Quote: LastDinosaur, Science prove God's existence. As you learn that the biological and bio-quimical structures are more complicated than astronomic ones, you start to think that the number 10 cannot become 256,766... just like that. When you analyse the Biblical texts having a good amount of scientific information and no prejudices, you see that a big part of science is included in the Bible.


I have no prejudices against the bible. But you have to admit, it was the church who condemed so many great scientists because their beliefs when against religon. Even you would be outcasted by the church my freinds go to, just by even saying evolution is a possibility. All im saying is that, the church follows science.. and not the other way around.. The church didnt accept that the earth was the center of the universe until science did, and it will be allways like that.. religon is nothing but an old explaination for truth. And whatever still cant be explained, we rely on religon. We dont know what happens after we die, some believe in heaven and hell.. some believe in reincarnation. I have no idea who is right and who is wrong, so i dont pick sides.. simple as that.

Quote: And, there's another aspect of this book. Spiritual matters can just be understood spiritually, if your spirit is asleep, there are a lot of things you won't understand: like how can a lovefull God exist if there is al ot of suffering in this world. Well, God is a spirit, so his love is spiritual (Timoteo 1:7 (in spanish, don't know how to say it in english)) then it can't be determined by circumstances or physiological needs.....

Well, cant argue that.. cant say its true either, maybe that good feeling is human nature? But its a sure good way to prove god exists, cause you cant really explain it.. well, just until science figures it out.. then you're screwed.

Quote: Don't say "yes" and don't say "no". "does God exist?" is not a yes/no question.
Last Dinosaur, big bang and evolution are not contradictory with the Bible. The Bible talks about evolution. Don't think it's contradictory because people say so. And there's something that makes me i don't know... Big bang is just a theory. So, because it is a theory, it's not the absolute truth, it's a possibility with VERY high chances, because of galaxy movements and other stuff. But there is a problematic over there: gravitation changes matter direction. so, please don't say "yes" and don't say "no" if there is not a yes/no question: just say "I think that...." and, if possible, justify your arguments. I'm trying to do it.

Well, i never said God didnt exist, this whole thread.. I never said he did either. So im saying netiher, just like you said. All i know is that my christian freinds dont believe any of it, science that is.. it'll probably take a few hundred years until they change the bible. But im glad you at least understand, its people with open minds like you that the world needs more of. I dunno how you can still be christian tho, you're probably lucky the people in your neighborhood dont discriminate against science. I dunno how to justify what im saying, i havent read the bible like you.. ive only recently been studing religons, but if you show me excepts from it i probably could make some good arguements.

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nospheratu

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You people are still with the God problem. Who cares, God exist becouse we want that he exist, anymore of that!!!
Now, do reencarnation exist.. I really belive in it, but always exist someone on the oposite and dont belive in it....
Say something people!

LastDinosaur

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Quote by nospheratuYou people are still with the God problem. Who cares, God exist becouse we want that he exist, anymore of that!!!
Now, do reencarnation exist.. I really belive in it, but always exist someone on the oposite and dont belive in it....
Say something people!

As a buddist, im supposed to believe in reincarnation.. but i dont. And please try not to be rude, people do care obviously. If you want to join in the discussion, try to listen to what others have already said

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UnknownFact

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LastDinosaur, there is true that Church has made mistakes, because of wrong interpretarion of biblical text. I don't deny it, what I don't like is what they have done, religious people of past, because nowadays people think that the word "God" has a strong link with the world "religion".That's false, but it's not people's fault. It's the fault of people that, taking the decision of believing in the Bible, didn't take it seriously. The 10 commandements were written to show us a way to live and not to punish people if they don't follow them. The Bible don't need to be changed. What need to be changed is our attitude. I mean, war, hate, anger, perversion....all of that evil.
And despite our believes, we all can make some good. And like "Bruce Almighty" movie, "be a Blessing!!"

Hey nospheratu, I wonder what would you do if you see a miracle. Do people need to see miracles to believe in God? I really hope "aunt Jemimma's" cancer to dissapear, or "uncle Rabbit's" column to be fixed... What would you do if you see that a related heals just like that, when askin "God" to heal him...
Need to see it? I don't.
reencarnation? Let's analyse it! you start! It's possible!

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Thats all anyone can ask for, that everyone accept everyone else no matter what they believed in. Religon would be so much eaiser if everyone knew the truth, but noone does.. thats why there are so many religons. God was indeed created by religon, but anyones free to believe in him anyway they want. Im wondering, have you read any books by Dan Brown? Cause i highly recomend it for someone like you.

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streamside

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Quote by nospheratuI think that dead is a gift of life??? I explain mineself. I you think
about it is true, just like this, to die we hace to live, and is the
only thing we have for sure in this live. but if we have to live to
die, then the life is just a punishment. Well, somthing like that...
you know...
Any one agrees with me????

Not basically. I believe that death is not a punishment, it is the end of your life in this world, and the beginning of your eternal life, either with the Creator, or in hell.
Life is a gift, given to you by God, which is why you should not waste it.
And, to quote old Tuck, "Do not be afraid of death - be afraid of the unlived life,"

Quote by punker0017
Morals are not human nature, I think
that they are a product of a reasoning mind. People aren't born with
morals, they are learned through cognition and reasoning. And what do
you mean that a man who disregards his morals is bad? What if a man has
bad morals? What then?

Just a little correction - you should have used the term 'values' instead of morals:

values
[n] beliefs of a person or social group in which they have an
emotional investment (either for or against something);
"he has very conservatives values"

morals
[n] motivation based on ideas of right and wrong

----
Ethics
The science of human duty; the body of rules of duty drawn
from this science; a particular system of principles and
rules concerting duty, whether true or false; rules of
practice in respect to a single class of human actions; as,
political or social ethics; medical ethics.
[1913 Webster]

The completeness and consistency of its morality is the
peculiar praise of the ethics which the Bible has
taught. --I. Taylor.
[1913 Webster]

ethics
n 1: motivation based on ideas of right and wrong [syn: ethical
motive, morals, morality]
2: the philosophical study of moral values and rules [syn: moral
philosophy]

culture
n 1: a particular society at a particular time and place; "early
Mayan civilization" [syn: civilization, civilisation]
2: the tastes in art and manners that are favored by a social
group
3: all the knowledge and values shared by a society [syn: acculturation]
4: a highly developed state of perfection; having a flawless or
impeccable quality; "they performed with great polish"; "I
admired the exquisite refinement of his prose"; "almost an
inspiration which gives to all work that finish which is
almost art"--Joseph Conrad [syn: polish, refinement, cultivation,
finish]
5: the attitudes and behavior that are characteristic of a
particular social group or organization; "the developing
drug culture"; "the reason that the agency is doomed to
inaction has something to do with the FBI culture"

I also think, that morals are intertwined with ethics and culture...
One's ethics may be defined by the culture they grew up in. There are values accepted in some places but are openly repulsed in other places.

"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." - Lao Tzu

"A journey of a thousand miles...
is better in a car."

Minato

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Hm...one could say your "God" is what you aspire to...
...and your religion is what you choose to place your faith in, whatever it may be.

And "morals"...can only be decided by oneself. The only person who can decide what is "right" or "wrong" is you. Our known religions were created to force several men's morals upon the masses.

satan123

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we cannot change the nature....only nature can change us......

see what tsunamis can do to us and we can do nothing about it....

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  • Apr 28, 2005

UnknownFact

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I agree with streamside. Morals is no the sum of values.

Quote by MinatoHm...one could say your "God" is what you aspire to...
...and your religion is what you choose to place your faith in,
whatever it may be.
And "morals"...can only be decided by oneself. The only person who can
decide what is "right" or "wrong" is you. Our known religions were
created to force several men's morals upon the masses.

I don't agree with Minato. We are back to the same thing I said. I don't know about eastern religions, but Islam and Christianism were created over thousands of years. So, this "several men" actually didn't know eachother (for a big group of them). For example: What is what the Bible want? no to teach a religion, there's no religion willing on it, not only believers say so. It tells us that what or who is named God wants a personal relationship with us, and the path to do that.
As my philosophy teacher said, Christianism is not a religion for believers, but for philosophers (n.b.:he is not a believer) (read Kant). I'll try to bring the argumentation later.

Minato, Yes, God is my example, my master, "what I aspire to". Then he exists.If it didn't exist, in my case, what I call "my master" is actually a group of people. But if that was the truth, it couldn't be possible that so many answers to personal problems can be written in there. They should have know the actual style of life. It can't be that so many scientifical problematics are solved there. etc. In that case, "those people" would have been scientists, psychologists, philosophers, artists.... all at the same time... and that is almost impossible...
Look, using The Bible as an example. On The Bible you don't see interdictions, laws, rools or any sort of those. You read it, and you see that there's God love everywhere. It is telling us that God loves us. there are no prohibitions, but advices. That's what it says if you analyse it, I'm not saying it's the truth or something like that. The problem of people is that they are 100% sure, or think they are, of things that cannot be prooved. Popper said there are things that can be proved using false reasoning. And false things that can be prooved using an correct reasoning. You can't be sure of something of that nature, you just can think it is right or wrong, but you can not universalize your thoughts. That's what I think.

Don't give up people!!
There are few who have answered to the 1st question...

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