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Bad physics in mech anime..

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Teryon

Teryon

He who invents Ultratech

I hear this from some people, that they dont like anime in general(mech anime in particular), because they dont obey all the rules of physics. Apparently big giant robots cant exist or somethin.

Honestly, A. I think they can, there are even RL groups working on making them, though the one I found was using a 350cc chevy diesel engine to power it and not fusion ;) and B. Why would *anyone* wanna be stuck using the limited physics that seem to govern our world? The universe got created without much imagination, lemme tell ya.

So what y`all think? Sillytech a bad thing, good thing, or...?

"Brute force is not my way. My technology can devise infinitely more
successful, subtle, and unpleasant methods..."
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kuroimisa

Retired Moderator

kuroimisa

Wizard of Darkness -under a rock

Well it's magic realism... you gotta have some make believe stuff... even if it doesn't make sense, why can't you do it? Hahaha... anything's possible kids ;)

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Mechs can be useful if actually realised but the restrictions are too many for them to be really practical in what we see in animes. A specialised AI bot is more cost efficient and better killing other things in the environments they are built for, than a human piloted four-limbed monkey, irregardless of technology.

The human body is considered more a jack of all trades and master of none in terms of physical ability. so no advantages is confered for having a machine designed in this manner. Streamlined fish swim way faster, four legged animals sprint way faster and much longer, birds fly or glide, snakes can get into any space, the human body lacks these. What our main advantages that gave us the ability to dominate the Earth is our brain and ability to put our ideas in motion in our hands, opposable thumbs with the brains to use them is our advantage. That is badly translated to mechs, since mechs don't have brains and why do they need a 20 foot spanner for?

For war, like the specialised animals, spheroids are the best shape for space combat, tanks are one of the most cost-efficient platforms for land combat, fixed-winged crafts (aero-space capable spheroids) will rule the air. They will all do so in greater quantities and efficient costs than what a complicated piece of machine to carry a slow-thinking human who takes forever and costs to train, into combat.

The mechs presented in anime now are all unfeasible in that they are all based on some mythical technology and unexplained details. How do the joints work, why are they working in space with armor blown off, exposed to the vacuum, absolute zero temperature, radiation and such, how efficient are the energies transfered, all unexplained, blinding you with talk of Minovsky particles for engines. They fed you one supposed explanation while missing out tonnes of details. Last I saw, only the Mechs in Battletech came close to feasibility with their motion being through artificial musculature.

When watching mech anime, I'm enjoying the fantasy. It's all fake as far as I'm concerned.

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Teryon

Teryon

He who invents Ultratech

Perhaps Ive given too much thought to this..but I get bored easily.


Mechs can be useful if actually realised but the restrictions are too many for them to be really practical in what we see in animes. A specialised AI bot is more cost efficient and better killing other things in the environments they are built for, than a human piloted four-limbed monkey, irregardless of technology.

-The problem is it will be quite difficult for a LONG time to create an artificially intelligent computer at all, let alone one that`ll run on a machine capable of being fitted into any reasonably sized weapon. Until that time, it is more effective to put a thinking human being in there, as much as the whole concept of a person going out and possibly dying sucks.
As far as design goes, its not that a humanoid design is neccesarily better in any particular environment. Its that the basic design(torso, two arms, two legs, perhaps a tail or other device for added balance) is capable of functioning in practically ANY environment. Generalization is a key trait.

What our main advantages that gave us the ability to dominate the Earth is our brain and ability to put our ideas in motion in our hands, opposable thumbs with the brains to use them is our advantage. That is badly translated to mechs, since mechs don't have brains and why do they need a 20 foot spanner for?


-The pilot is the brains, and they`d need that spanner to build something on a scale humans cant achieve on their own.

For war, like the specialised animals, spheroids are the best shape for space combat, tanks are one of the most cost-efficient platforms for land combat, fixed-winged crafts (aero-space capable spheroids) will rule the air. They will all do so in greater quantities and efficient costs than what a complicated piece of machine to carry a slow-thinking human who takes forever and costs to train, into combat.

-A human being is capable of thinking better and faster than you may believe. As far as cost goes..human beings are born all the time, they`re infinitely replaceable. an AI, on the other hand, unless you want to begin producing them like cars, will not be so replaceable, and for a long time undoubtedly more expensive. And if your AI can truly think as a human, just faster due to its substrate, can you control it?


The mechs presented in anime now are all unfeasible in that they are all based on some mythical technology and unexplained details.

-As much as *I* would like it, a series simply wouldnt sell if they explained every bit of tech on the show. A manual would be nice though, sold alongside the series..

How do the joints work, why are they working in space with armor blown off, exposed to the vacuum, absolute zero temperature, radiation and such

-Alot of series refer to magnetic bearings, or liquid-filled, or some other such. As far as working in space with armor blown off...its armor. Surely *any* designer would bet on armor plating being damaged or destroyed in some manner, and would harden his equipment accordingly. Radiation can be either ignored or shielded against dependent on the specific application(who cares of the hydraulics and fuel gets a fee 100 rems, while we would care if the computers did). And computing need not neccesarily be uber-advanced in all respects. processors less powerful than a pentium 1 fly alot of things orbiting above us right now, including the space shuttle.

Space, btw, is not the uber-cold place it is made out to be. Yes, it is cold. But it also absolutely sucks as a heat-conductor. The only method left to heat is by radiation, really, conduction is quite limited and convection is impossible.

how efficient are the energies transfered, all unexplained, blinding you with talk of Minovsky particles for engines.

-Well, how else would they explain the small size of the fusion reactors? And, again, technical details do not an interesting series make to most people. Id love it, Id love to have fat books on each of the gundams detailing all this. But all we can do is make logical assumptions, and have a little bit of faith ;)

They fed you one supposed explanation while missing out tonnes of details. Last I saw, only the Mechs in Battletech came close to feasibility with their motion being through artificial musculature.

-Ive seen battletech mecha. You might as well go with a tank. those things are indeed a waste of time to bother with.

When watching mech anime, I'm enjoying the fantasy. It's all fake as far as I'm concerned.

-But that which is fake today becomes real tomarrow. Its one of the things that gives me hope.

"Brute force is not my way. My technology can devise infinitely more
successful, subtle, and unpleasant methods..."
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Quote: As far as design goes, its not that a humanoid design is neccesarily better in any particular environment. Its that the basic design(torso, two arms, two legs, perhaps a tail or other device for added balance) is capable of functioning in practically ANY environment. Generalization is a key trait.

A block of square wood with directional thrusters can function in any environment as well. What use are limbs in space or air? What use are limbs for when a gun fixed on a free-flying spheroid can shoot in any direction faster than a mecha that has to twist its torso, align its arm and fire? The humanoid body is not a good generic model to build from in any case.

Quote: A human being is capable of thinking better and faster than you may believe. As far as cost goes..human beings are born all the time, they`re infinitely replaceable. an AI, on the other hand, unless you want to begin producing them like cars, will not be so replaceable, and for a long time undoubtedly more expensive. And if your AI can truly think as a human, just faster due to its substrate, can you control it?

Go to the electronic industry and ask them how much a common processor is these days and how fast it can be produced. Go find a PhD professor and ask him how many years it took him to get that PhD and how much money his parents, friends, university and himself have poured in to raise him to that age. The cumulative costs and the fact that industry law of mass production doesn't apply to raising humans make it a fact that when the high technological units is cheaper than specially trained humans.

Plus 1 day on a simple production plant gives 300,000 processors. How long does it take to conceive, deliver and raise a human from infacy to current typical conscription age (16)? Who's fighting that daily 300,000 machines per day with even losses on both sides?

It has also been proven machines have faster hard coded responses than any humans ever will. Give them a task and machines will recognise it faster than any humans can at the moment, simply because our neural networks are stagnant in evolution while electornic communications are now getting to quantum levels. Have you even read the news and scientific findings?!

Quote: As much as *I* would like it, a series simply wouldnt sell if they explained every bit of tech on the show. A manual would be nice though, sold alongside the series..

There's no explaination because they CAN'T explain. They gave fancy terms and nice sounding names that do dipshit to explain anything. Anyone too can come up with a stupid term to make things better than they can, e.g. the "goo-goo-gaga wynovian particles" implemented in these microchips gives sentience to them that bestows them omnipresence and 5000 equivalent IQ.

Quote: Alot of series refer to magnetic bearings, or liquid-filled, or some other such. As far as working in space with armor blown off...its armor. Surely *any* designer would bet on armor plating being damaged or destroyed in some manner, and would harden his equipment accordingly. Radiation can be either ignored or shielded against dependent on the specific application(who cares of the hydraulics and fuel gets a fee 100 rems, while we would care if the computers did). And computing need not neccesarily be uber-advanced in all respects. processors less powerful than a pentium 1 fly alot of things orbiting above us right now, including the space shuttle.

Space, btw, is not the uber-cold place it is made out to be. Yes, it is cold. But it also absolutely sucks as a heat-conductor. The only method left to heat is by radiation, really, conduction is quite limited and convection is impossible.

Liquid-filled=hydraulics, magnetic bearings is still bearings, constricted by friction and size. Hydraulics are slow in response confined to the limitations of Bernoulli's principles of fluid pressures. Magnetic forces take time to build up and settle down, also requiring magnetic generators which add further response times and complications of space, gears and such will wear out and are limited in the movement axes. All still won't function when exposed to bare space. If you hardened moving parts to make them tougher or protect them, it increases their size, then how are you going to make them move at the same supposed efficiency that mechas require? Make them smaller, it will be weaker, make them tougher, too big to fit or even move. Your mechanics will never fit and function in space or even come to be in a fully articulated human mecha, not to mention the astronomical costs for a silly human mecha which could be made for 100,000 specialised war machines which only one of them needs one shot to take the mecha down.

Quote: -Well, how else would they explain the small size of the fusion reactors? And, again, technical details do not an interesting series make to most people. Id love it, Id love to have fat books on each of the gundams detailing all this. But all we can do is make logical assumptions, and have a little bit of faith smiley

Yes, and it is perfectly logical as well that fully-thinking AIs with physical and neuralogical specifications 1000000x better than organic humans will exist by the time magical Minovsky particles are found.

Whatever so-called super tech that can be put into a mech, can be put into a smaller better cheaper war machine as well. In fact, it makes it better by far to a mecha all the time.

well I still believe not all the mech is disobeying physics..........

but what we currently call as physics is only what we are currently understand.........there are still many unexplained phenomena happening...........so the current physics is still incomplete...........that is what I think................

Duuz

Duuz

Master of Disaster

The main thing you're not mentioning is the size of most mecha in anime. They are one big fat target. They stand out and don't make as good use of the terrain as does a tank could. It's about their profile. The bigger the profile the easier it is to hit. So a big battlemech or a mobile suit walks into a battle zone and every joe with a missile launcher is going to be takeing pot shots at it, and if it's big and slow, it's an easy target.

And then your 10 million dollar mecha is a pile of scrap.

For realistic mecha you have to think smaller. Powered armor like the book "Starship Troopers" mentioned. Maybe you could make a mecha as big as an AT Votoms or Heavy Gear, but that would be the maximum. Anything bigger is just a bomb magnet.

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#1 Friendly fire isn't
#2 Big objects tend to draw fire!

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onyhow

Survivor...

You are right. They are too big. Also big ships and mechas can't move that fast because of F=MA law.

Teryon

Teryon

He who invents Ultratech

Well, as far as moving fast goes, partly its scale. Just due to foot size a mech would move faster, since its walking speed would like cover far more ground.

As for the rest of you..you really know how to take the personal storyline-style heroics out of warfare, dont you? ;0 Drones, spheroids, tanks..waaaay too practical to have fun with.

Ok, I give. Mechs arent realistic. Wont stop `em from being made, just stop `em from bein used.

"Brute force is not my way. My technology can devise infinitely more
successful, subtle, and unpleasant methods..."
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calisqo

calisqo

::RERAITO::

lol that's just silly to hate anime just because it has bad physic >.<
Afterall anime in general are all based on imagination ^_^.
Thos guys who think about hating it is was too serious >.<

Rizov

Rizov

Just wasting time...

I have to agree with Nitengouki. Mechs just don't make any sense in terms of science or practical use. Instead of using so much metal to make a mecha, why don't you make a multitude of small computer/remote operated vehicles instead. The other thing that just doesn't make any sense is why, if technology is so advanced, humans still have to control the mecha from inside. Why don't they remotely control them from a safe distance so even if the mecha is destroyed the pilot is still alive. Maybe it has been explained in one series or two but I haven't caught it.

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Teryon

Teryon

He who invents Ultratech

Well in most gundam series it was explained as waaaay effective jamming systems prevented remote weaponry.

"Brute force is not my way. My technology can devise infinitely more
successful, subtle, and unpleasant methods..."
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Rizov

Rizov

Just wasting time...

Then, wouldn't that jamming prevent communication between the mechas as well. Then how do the characters communicate between each other or the main base?

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Kuzain

eeto...uumo...

The physics behind mechas are a little screwy in general. Two legged machines (as mechas often are) are very, very unstable. The human body (which is a complex two legged machine) makes almost constant adjustments to maintain its balance. In addition, wheels or treds are just in general much more efficient for a very large, top heavy machine.

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RommieSG

RommieSG

Heir to the Empire

All one has to do is point a person to Gasaraki. I believe that it's the most realistic of Mecha series out there, and also deals with the political impact of what would happen, were there Mecha introduced into the battlefield today.

Rommie

geninlv1

geninlv1

untamed

I thought I was picky. I love the mech stuff, and i think most people would get a kick out of it if they were ever to be created in real life... especially weapons dealers!
I say whatever to bad physics, certain things work for certain stories for certain anime... certainly!

Duuz

Duuz

Master of Disaster

I like the big mecha series myself. They're popular and the mechas are big because let's face it, it looks cool. And I don't know about the mecha from Gasaraki, they look like they stand taller than a Votom, and that's a liability. What are they around? 20 feet tall? A Votom is 5 feet shorter.

Well the series AT Votoms came out years way before Gasaraki. As did the game Heavy Gear, which those mechs look like updated Votoms. So that is the most likely mech design as they have a secondary movment system in the form of wheels on their feet.

And bad physics works for anime as much as other well know sci-fi titles. Star Wars at-at walkers. A small squad of MI in class II marauder suits could take one of those down, no problem.

In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same.

breadcrust

breadcrust

glowing city lights

I really dont see whats so bad about physics that arnt perfect.
a, you cant expect anime artists to draw accurate physics 100% of the time
b, alot of anime is set in another world (not earth), so why should gravity (or whatever other forces) be exactly like they are here
c, our earth's gravity and universe's general physics are boring XD

Samika

Samika

Homonculous

Lol, name one anime that DOESN't defy physics. Though for mechs, I suppose if its a sci-fi show, then it should adher to science principles more...

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Technically, almost all mecha series has broken physics. Why do they work? Suspension of disbelief. That's the key.

It's not just anime. Sci-fi have broken physics as well. Otherwise, we won't have all those things like hyperspace, warp, 200 gigaton yield medium turbolasers, 2 teraton yield heavy turbolasers, teleportation, technobabble, "Treknobabble", etc.

*rants*

Enternal

Enternal

Wirbelwind

A bum! Kidding, i dont really know. I do know that it has to have something to do with space and technology. This explains why I love mechs and sci fi anime especially Kiddy Grade.

Lumiere is so cute!!!!!!!1

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Actually the original topic of argument here is "mechas will rule in real life", not "mechas aren't possible in anime".

Those arguing to suspend all disbelief aren't addressing the original topic. In fact they help to support the argument that mechas aren't feasible at all in real life. Thank you all for that.

Like I said, I love mechas and sci-fi but people should know that humanoid mechs are terrible machines for real-life purposes.

Now exoskeletons!!! That's way cool! MI! MI! All to the Rodger Young.

rayearth

rayearth

[ The Real Gouf ]

Agree with above post :)

Altough I like mecha much and there's still a slight possibility for some mecha (and a real robot one) to be available, it's their usefulness that's very doubtful...( and I said very ).

if it's for combat, real mecha like gundam would be very weak if it's to be realistic, even proved by gundam ms08th where a bunch of light tank with cheaper production could beat a ms because of their low profile - smaller body but same firepower could pack greater threat).
and if super armor, heavy beam gun and long lasting power source are availabe to robots, why don't they implemented it in smaller unit like tanks, fast aircraft etc...in reality it's far more reliable than mecha), why don't they put the same armor coating to large carrier ships (I still find it hard to believe that one mecha could withstand a direct hit from some missile but a larger ships with more expensive cost production and large crew can be easily destroyed by small machinegun fire?!? not to mention the bridge section is extremely vunerable and open to enemy fire).
not to mention mechas that could fly easily in the air better than airplane altough their aerodinamical profile are not realistic at all, and when they stomped on the ground the surface that they landed on didn't withstand damage at all...that's againt physics rule definitely ^_^'
another real examples... a soviet anti satellite missile could size the same as icbm ballistic missile, but u.s version is no larger than a missile than can be carried in jet aircraft, surely it take less resource to produce the smaller one and that's why micro minituarization (sorry if I spelled it wrong) is useful :)

so it's just not bad physics...it also bad logic, sense of reality and real world economical value imho :D

the only mecha I found to be as close to realistic are probably Macross and Patlabor (especially patlabor who really shows the comparison in fighting ability between real unit and a mech) since they're more make sense.


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