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everyone knows that Bush is just lying about iraq to get it's oil, but the crazy thin is that some people actually agree with him!?!?!?!?!
How can this possibly be?!? I mean that if you agree with what Bush is doing, you agree with killing thousands of innocent people!!
Forces trapped in yearning, memories trapped in time. The night is my companin and solitude my guide. Through this world
i stumble, so many times betrayed trying to find an honest word to bind the truth insane.
Nerdly Ghost
(Edited)It's funny how sometimes it seems like folks from other countries seem to care so much about internal workings of American politics than Americans themselves do...
Almost as intersting has how folks seem to raise highly controversial, and perhaps even insulting topics with such little substantiation. I certainly hope you have more into this than meets the eye... ...Bush has certianly been beaten to death on this forum already (in recent times). I really don't think we need another "I hate Bush" thread.
I don't mean it as an insult to america, or americans, and it's not to increase my level(because i could post just about anything to do that) I put that up because i wonder if there is anyhting else that i might be missing, If you have any nice facts about Bush, please tell me about them, because the face that he puts on is not a very kind one. I am not the only person who thinks this either. and it's not only non-americans who have my opinion, some americans think the same thing. As to your inquiery about why people from other countries care about american poiticians, it's because american politicians care so much about other people's politics as well. So i'm just saying it's a two way street.I hope that you will not see me as predjudist, and please write back telling me your opinion on Bush. by by for now.
Forces trapped in yearning, memories trapped in time. The night is my companin and solitude my guide. Through this world
i stumble, so many times betrayed trying to find an honest word to bind the truth insane.
Bush has deceived many of us, and some of us even allow him to do that, while others are okay with his decisions. I care for how my future turns out, but if Bush is constantly telling us things he knows would get him in trouble, then most likely, the other people who find out that Bush is lying would eventually take it out on the USA. Though this country provides lots of freedom for the people, there are still some things the president should do to prevent putting people's lives at risk. Right now, because of all the expenses for the War on Terror, the prices have increased on many things, especially oil. We're paying extra money as big as our population is most likely for this war, which is unreasonable. Even the cost of rent is increasing in New York City, which would force me to move elsewhere. All in all, Bush is effective to some people, but to others, it's a different story, and I am one who falls under the category of a different story.
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Nerdly Ghost
What is the lie you are referring to? What is the most recent of his 'constant' lies?
I agree with Archer. Please, inform us. Which lies are you talking about? Please be specific, if you can.
well, it's not exactly 'recent' because it's been going on for awhile, but Bush keeps saying that he's protecting the world, and i don't see how he can protect the world when he actually kills alot of inoccent people. Isn't he supposed to prevent this from happening?
Forces trapped in yearning, memories trapped in time. The night is my companin and solitude my guide. Through this world
i stumble, so many times betrayed trying to find an honest word to bind the truth insane.
Nerdly Ghost
C'mon a moral question/controversy doesn't even constitute a lie. Can you even provide a lie from the past month? They are allegedly 'constant' after all.
I must apologize, I can be rather engaging when I'm in a bad mood.
ya i can tell.... i'm not saying that Bush is a bad presidant, i mean that he has done alot of good things for his people, and thats what really matters, right? But what i ment by 'constant' is that he has one or maby two somewhat untrue opinions/facts, and he keeps them going.
Forces trapped in yearning, memories trapped in time. The night is my companin and solitude my guide. Through this world
i stumble, so many times betrayed trying to find an honest word to bind the truth insane.
Nerdly Ghost
Certainly the implication is there. It has been my observation that many of the things which Pz. Bush has allegedly lied about have been investigated and resolved to be the result of bad intellegence, etc. There may be one exception that comes to mind. However, it is not recent, and I would prefer not to bring up old history. Certainly, it doesn't serve to substantiate any consistency of deception.
I'm done posting on this topic. If you are concerned about your level, probably the best way to increase it is to contribute scans or artwork to the community. I wish you well.
Quote by Shadowdawneveryone knows that Bush is just lying about iraq to get it's oil, but
the crazy thin is that some people actually agree with him!?!?!?!?!
How can this possibly be?!? I mean that if you agree with what Bush is
doing, you agree with killing thousands of innocent people!!
It has been my observation that those who think Bush has been lying are incredibly naive. Archer put it best:
Quote by Archer79Certainly the implication is there. It has been my observation that
many of the things which Pz. Bush has allegedly lied about have been
investigated and resolved to be the result of bad intellegence, etc.
I am invincible!
Quote by BorisGrishenko It has been my observation that those who think Bush has been lying are incredibly naive.
So true.
seriously, its not even bush, its our whole govt and his administration. the sad truth is, no matter who is in congress
or is our president, we can never trust them. this capitalist western society is really what is at fault. this
"democracy" that us americans have been brainwashed to believe is the only good govt and what ever america
does is right is complete bull. all of the western world for the most part is extremely ethnocentric and what i have
come to realize is that in our current society, is that objects and material possessions are more important then people.
relationships have dissolved and the world has become extremely impersonal. the reason our world is so fucked up has
nothing to do with the politicians. it our whole system and society that has been built up on such ignorant beliefs.
what president hasnt decieved us? what great leaders were completely honest and fair? the public for one isnt able to
take in "everything" that goes on in the world but at the same time, govt shouldnt hide and manipulate the
flow on information. i can offer no solution or answer but i can surely say the answer will come with the fall of our
current society. like with anything society, it is destined to crumbled and fail. the only civilizations that had been
able to retain a way of life since the beginnings of their own histories were infected with western ways of thinking and
capitalist views.
so the question is what the hell am i trying to say. if you think bush is in the wrong and are complaining about it,
ask yourself, what have you done to fix this problem? cause i know i havent done anything, but then again, i dont trust
any type of a governing body such as the ones we have in what we call the "civilized" world.
So what do you suggest we do instead? How can we "fix" this problem? And what is the problem? Isn't our manifest greed simply human nature and human drives expressing themselves in an enviroment where they can flourish, instead the bleak eras of survival earlier in human history? Haven't these problems been here all along?
Yuusha-Oh
I think it's a little naive to think that Bush hasn't lied. All politicians lie. They overstate their case, fudge evidence, use worst-case or best-case scenarios to try and make their side sound better. That shouldn't be surprising in the least. Check sites like FactCheck.org, a nonpartisan site that, as the name implies, analyzes claims politicians make.
That said, I don't agree with the characterization of Bush as a constant liar either. Though I disagree with many of his policies, I don't think he's flat-out lying. Stuff like saying that we have a Social Security crisis. One of the claims that Bush has made on his tour to promote his Social Security reform has been that Social Security will go 'bankrupt'. I believe the year he's been sticking to has been 2042 (well, it's what he said in the State of the Union, anyway. I can't find a speech transcript online for his recent tour). However, the Congressional Budget Office estimates that the Social Security Trust Fund won't be bankrupt until 2052, at which point the system faces not bankruptcy, but benefit cuts. I think you'll agree that paying out less money is not the same as having no money to pay out.
Another thing that is slightly puzzling to me is Bush's obsession with Social Security. Yes, it is true that the country faces a Social Security problem. Currently, Social Security is something like 4.2% of our GDP, and will grow to roughly 7% by 2050. However, we're facing an impending Medicare crisis. The Congressional Budget Office is projecting Medicare, currently 4.2% of the GDP as well, to be around 20% by 2050. I'd say that's a bit more of a pressing issue than Social Security.
Sources:
FactCheck.org (Social Security): http://www.factcheck.org/article305.html
FactCheck.org (Social Security deficit): http://www.factcheck.org/article302.html
Congressional Budget Office testimony: http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=6068&sequence=0
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Indeed, spiral. And on top of it, when one government official has been misinformed, who is to say who was responsible for the misinformation, at what point did it become false, and what, if any, was the wrongdoing? Was it honest mistakes, was it sabotage, was it bribery, was it a person with an axe to grind, was it true but recently ceased to be?
If I said there were twenty-one cookies in the jar based upon intel that had been gathered an hour ago and it was now empty, have I lied, or have I merely been misinformed? Have I even been misinformed at all? When I was told the information, it may well have been true. When I stated the information, it may well be true. If you search the jar a year later, there may be four dozen cookies, there may be no cookies at all. Somebody may even have filled the jar with sand or pennies. The same goes for anything as transitionary as politics and international intelligence. To say that somebody lied based on having been fed bad information is a larger lie than any accidental misinformation can ever make a person guilty of.
I am invincible!
and what history are you referring to? cant be all of world history. if you know anything about human history in a large scale, you should know that the term human nature, is false and ethnocentric in itself. "greed" is commmonly found in societies such as ours but i doubt you will find it in many american indian tribal groups before the new world was demolished by us foreigners. i dont offer a solution cause i cant give one. im pointing out that people only assume that one aspect of the system is wrong and with replacing it, thing will be ok. but they fail to realize that possibly the whole picture is what is wrong. im just pointing out that one should look at the larger scope of things and look deeper into what the mass media and even our education tells us. no one can say who is right or wrong, since everyone acts on their own set of morals. this also leads to the question, whos morals and beliefes are better? well the answer is no one. people ignorantly fail to realize this and cause conflict such as the war going on now. on the otherhand, liberals bashing bush are no better either. they arent very welcoming of the other sides beliefs only causing the drift between to expand greater. i dont know what the answer is but i can say it lies in each one of us and self discovery. people need to learn to be more accepting and reasonable to others. we can learn from other cultures instead of converting them, and we can be more accepting of people instead of killing them.
But the problem isn't the system. It's the people within it. Communism is ideologically the perfect social system. However, people are imperfect, so they will naturally corrupt it (Russia, Cuba, the list goes on). I can understand trying to learn to understand one another and learn from one another, regardless of race, sexual preference, or political beliefs. But try telling that to a Muslim terrorist, or a KKK fanatic. Do you really think they'll listen?
ask yourself, are we listening? are we trying to talk to them?
no....no we arent.....
Quote by crapmonsterThis "democracy" that us americans have been brainwashed to believe is the only good govt and what ever america does is right is complete bull........
so the question is what the hell am i trying to say. if you think bush is in the wrong and are complaining about it, ask yourself, what have you done to fix this problem? cause i know i havent done anything, but then again, i dont trust any type of a governing body such as the ones we have in what we call the "civilized" world.
Ok, this is in defense of Democracy, not Bush. Democracy might not be perfect and might not
lead to World Peace, but have dictators, communist states, or monarcies truly made better the lives of their people? No,
sooner or later the "elite" of such states get greedy and selfish. They cause wars and make people fight for
sometimes no reason at all. We have a volunteer military, whose members can actually help choose the person they work
under. Only a government that does not hold absolute power over it's citizens and held accountable to the people can
truly help the people they are responsible for. I am all for the spread of freedom and the betterment of lives through
self determination. Each country can then decide for itself what kind of laws they would like to enforce, what kind of
morality they will hold their society to, but they should be given the chance to choose.
What I have done for this problem is vote, sign petitions, write letters, and in general be aware of the events in the
world around me. That's all I can do right now.
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Quote by crapmonsterask yourself, are we listening? are we trying to talk to them?
no....no we arent.....
Listening to whom? If you mean the terrorists, why should we care?
I am invincible!
Quote by Shadowdawneveryone knows that Bush is just lying about iraq to get it's oil, but the crazy thin is that some people actually agree with him!?!?!?!?!
How can this possibly be?!?
*oy vey*....not another bush ranting thread...i thought we had enough of those.
i think if the war was all about oil...oil prices would've fallen instead of risen dramatically. and the u.s. doesn't
even get most of their oil from opec nations (aside from saudi arabia)...we import oil mostly from mexico, canada, and
venezuela. i think to get a handle on oil, there would be much easier strategies than going to war with another
country.
it was also about disarming saddam (and i'm aware of the faulty and outdated intelligence reports that both the pres.
and congress, and the reps. and dems. relied on) and enforcing u.n. resolutions that clearly stated that iraq would face
"serious consequences" for noncompliance. although i concede that pres. bush should've been more patient.
there was a reason why his father did not take out saddam's regime in the first gulf war...it would've been a messy
aftermath.
Quote by ShadowdawnI mean that if you agree with what Bush is doing, you agree with killing thousands of innocent people!!
i find it interesting that many people can condemn the u.s. so easily for killing iraqis in a time of war, but make no
similar condemations for the foreign terrorists and sunni insurgents who are killing their own fellow muslims just to
stop a fledgling democracy...HELLO???!!! and the mass murder and torture committed by saddam himself...no condemnation
or quibbles whatsoever. so, let's go over the numbers again, shall we?
*'88: 5000 civilians killed in halabja by chemical weapons courtesy of "chemical ali."
*'88: 50,000-100,000 kurds killed in the anfal campaigns.
*'90: over 1000 kuwaitis killed when saddam invaded kuwait.
*'91: 30,000-60,000 iraqis killed in the uprising after the gulf war.
and saddam is the one awaiting trial for war crimes and human rights violations.
so, if you're going to condemn the u.s., please also don't forget how saddam and the terrorists treat their own
people.
Quote by ShadowdawnI don't mean it as an insult to america, or americans, and it's not to increase my level(because i could post just about anything to do that) I put that up because i wonder if there is anyhting else that i might be missing, If you have any nice facts about Bush, please tell me about them, because the face that he puts on is not a very kind one. I am not the only person who thinks this either. and it's not only non-americans who have my opinion, some americans think the same thing. As to your inquiery about why people from other countries care about american poiticians, it's because american politicians care so much about other people's politics as well. So i'm just saying it's a two way street.I hope that you will not see me as predjudist, and please write back telling me your opinion on Bush. by by for now.
you can refer to this thread as it does have some positive things about pres. bush, although you'll have to read through
all the other rantings, as well:
this thread provides both the good and the bad.
man, i just wish people would have a more balanced outlook and not just blame one person or one "entity"...so tired of having to keep defending the other side...
Don't worry about tomorrow, don't think about yesterday,
don't live in the future, just make it through today!
I agree with you. No politician is to be trusted because they all lie. I every country.
Forces trapped in yearning, memories trapped in time. The night is my companin and solitude my guide. Through this world
i stumble, so many times betrayed trying to find an honest word to bind the truth insane.
Here's a good question for you guys. If the United States government is so despicable, who is better/ Who should we model ourselves around in order to make things better? Please, be specific.
And if you can't answer this question, what right do you have to critisize the government?
Quote by BorisGrishenko
Quote by crapmonsterask yourself, are we listening? are we trying to talk to them?
no....no we arent.....
Listening to whom? If you mean the terrorists, why should we care?
Very good point. No offense, crapmoster, but if you truly believe that the terrorists and the KKK are worth listening to, you have no right to call anything evil or corrupted. If anything, they should be listening to us.
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