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Quote: if christianity ruins hope for homosexuals,then everyone has lost hope.realize homosexuality is a regular sin just like lying...we all suffer from different types of sin but doesn't mean we lose hope.we should gain hope on how the bible states this stuff and provides an answer to our questions.


Do realize hope is a double edged blade, it'll help you, and it'll destroy you, (not literally, but you get the point). How the hell is homosexuality a regular sin? Someone born with it is a sin? How about people's defect, given a mentally retarded person, people can order them around and they would have no idea, is that a sin just because they were born that way?

Quote: well the cockroach analogy used by you is just showing your mockery of Christianity,mr. I respect all beliefs.


No you don't, from what I see, you keep saying yours is the one true religion.

Quote: The feelings endured by christians arent things of the skin or disfigurements of the brain.They are as real as happiness and sadness,anger and joy.

Whenever i try closing a statement,i hope for ending remarks,but instead,people say things that i have to respond to,like saying homosexuals lose all hope in life because the bible exists...thats nonsense.


I never said homosexuals lose all hope, I'm saying a lot, that is a LOT, of Christians discriminate homosexuals and such because the bible calls it a sin, now do you consider love to be a sin, now if you do, something is wrong there...

Quote: Well now,you shouldn't underestimate a person's knowledge and wisdom.Those pre teens could be smarter than they look.Not to mention,im quite young myself,and am respected as a wise adult figure among many adults.Age is nothing but the time one has been alive,and the thing that differs the most between age is knowledge and wisdom.


Good for you, now whats the point in being an adult figure if you get mad so easily? Theres no point in being a "young adult", all it shows is you're trying to act older than you are.

Quote: and an atheist believes there is no God or supernatural things that relate to that.You are an atheist,as you said,so these are your common beliefs...unless you want to start a strange type of atheism that branches off in its own category.


YAY, I HAVE MY OWN CATEGORY, weird... I guess I could just for the hell of it and for fun, hehehe.

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ProgramZERO

ProgramZERO

The Lost Generation

Quote by kingray100well the cockroach analogy used by you is just showing your mockery of Christianity,mr. I respect all beliefs.

I would use the argument against any superstition that uses emotions as justification for something.

Quote: The feelings endured by christians arent things of the skin or disfigurements of the brain.They are as real as happiness and sadness,anger and joy.

Well, there are several sources for happiness and joy and religion is one of them. I know what you speak of, when I was Christian, I knew not to fear anything in this world because "God was on my side" (how selfish of me) and that would make me feel good. Of course, I was taught of this higher power ever since I was a child so I would of course feel feelings of joy, happiness, and comfort when the ultimate power was "on my side".

Sleeping peacefully on the edges of No Man's Land... Not all good is rewarded, not all evil is punished.

He is not being insulting, he is mearly stating a fact, that pre teens and teenagers, have less developed prefrontal cortexes and makes more slow and bad decisions than adults. Your brain will not be fully developed untill you reach your early twenties. It does not mean you are unintelligent, just more prone to bad decisions like taking drugs, or joining a cult if you wish. It could basicaly apply to anything. I would say that the problems with drugs these days also has to do with the school system though, and not just indecision.

kingray100

kingray100

Ryu,the half demon

Quote by ProgramZERO

Quote by kingray100well the cockroach analogy used by you is just showing your mockery of Christianity,mr. I respect all beliefs.

I would use the argument against any superstition that uses emotions as justification for something.

Quote: The feelings endured by christians arent things of the skin or disfigurements of the brain.They are as real as happiness and sadness,anger and joy.

Well, there are several sources for happiness and joy and religion is one of them. I know what you speak of, when I was Christian, I knew not to fear anything in this world because "God was on my side" (how selfish of me) and that would make me feel good. Of course, I was taught of this higher power ever since I was a child so I would of course feel feelings of joy, happiness, and comfort when the ultimate power was "on my side".


Quote: I would use the argument against any superstition that uses emotions as justification for something.

well now i can see your thought process....this totally adds up.and the bible and God arent superstitions, buddy.
and we basically established the fact that you werent a true christian that was truly saved.like i said,you admired and followed the bible/sayings of christianity and then was easily lead astray into the thought of science can explain anything.

its just not the feeling of having God on my side,its the feeling of salvation,joy that doesnt go away,the clear line drawn between christianity and the world, having my prayers answered everyday,and understanding the trials of life.there's probably more but there's probably no point in mentioning more,correct?

merged: 09-17-2007 ~ 03:49am

Quote by marfish14He is not being insulting, he is mearly stating a fact, that pre teens and teenagers, have less developed prefrontal cortexes and makes more slow and bad decisions than adults. Your brain will not be fully developed untill you reach your early twenties. It does not mean you are unintelligent, just more prone to bad decisions like taking drugs, or joining a cult if you wish. It could basicaly apply to anything. I would say that the problems with drugs these days also has to do with the school system though, and not just indecision.

well sir,everybody is different and everybody develops different things at different times.and it may be a common fact that mostly is correct,but Im sure preteens would still be offended.

offended by fact? Everyone is different but we would all be finished our growth around the same period even if it ma differ by a year or two. This is scientific fact, it does not change because one wants it to.

ProgramZERO

ProgramZERO

The Lost Generation

Quote by kingray100

Quote by ProgramZEROI would use the argument against any superstition that uses emotions as justification for something.

well now i can see your thought process....this totally adds up.and the bible and God arent superstitions, buddy.

Alright, tell me the difference between the fear of Hell and the fear of the number 13?

Quote: and we basically established the fact that you werent a true christian that was truly saved.like i said,you admired and followed the bible/sayings of christianity and then was easily lead astray into the thought of science can explain anything.

Science cannot explain anything but it can explain the most. More than any book, scripture, or scroll.

Quote: its just not the feeling of having God on my side,its the feeling of salvation,joy that doesnt go away,the clear line drawn between christianity and the world,

Yes, we all have feelings of happiness, joy, security, and peace. It's completely normal and we all find different sources for these things. These emotions aren't divine.

Quote: having my prayers answered everyday,and understanding the trials of life.there's probably more but there's probably no point in mentioning more,correct?

What prayers would these be?

Sleeping peacefully on the edges of No Man's Land... Not all good is rewarded, not all evil is punished.

kingray100

kingray100

Ryu,the half demon

Quote by ProgramZERO

Quote by kingray100[quote(...) would use the argument against any superstition that uses emotions as justification for something.

well now i can see your thought process....this totally adds up.and the bible and God arent superstitions, buddy.

Alright, tell me the difference between the fear of Hell and the fear of the number 13?

Quote: and we basically established the fact that you werent a true christian that was truly saved.like i said,you admired and followed the bible/sayings of christianity and then was easily lead astray into the thought of science can explain anything.

Science cannot explain anything but it can explain the most. More than any book, scripture, or scroll.

Quote: its just not the feeling of having God on my side,its the feeling of salvation,joy that doesnt go away,the clear line drawn between christianity and the world,

Yes, we all have feelings of happiness, joy, security, and peace. It's completely normal and we all find different sources for these things. These emotions aren't divine.

Quote: having my prayers answered everyday,and understanding the trials of life.there's probably more but there's probably no point in mentioning more,correct?

What prayers would these be?

well im not sure why,but im not afraid of the number 13...neither is anyone I know to tell you the truth...maybe you are.....as for hell,if its involved in the almighty bible's words,the it ought to be taken seriously...I hope you dont start saying that we shouldnt,because that would just be careless,right?

aside from you completely avoiding your previous personal christian life,you say that books and scriptures hold no truth and cant be trusted....you are thick headed if you say this....you simply only see the earth and stars,but nothing spiritual about you shows...as i've said before in the past,you are definitely hopeless if all of this im hearing is true.

as for my prayers,why would i tell you?

and you just dont understand the feelings im describing...maybe it cant be put into words i suppose..well doesnt matter,i know these and you dont....wisdom seems to be harder to learn than knowledge.

Quote: well im not sure why,but im not afraid of the number 13...neither is anyone I know to tell you the truth...maybe you are.....as for hell,if its involved in the almighty bible's words,the it ought to be taken seriously...I hope you dont start saying that we shouldnt,because that would just be careless,right?


Okay, there are people that are afraid of the number 13, don't know why, but its their superstitious belief, okay? Also, you have yet to back anything up for the bible that it is true and god's word...

Quote: aside from you completely avoiding your previous personal christian life,you say that books and scriptures hold no truth and cant be trusted....you are thick headed if you say this....you simply only see the earth and stars,but nothing spiritual about you shows...as i've said before in the past,you are definitely hopeless if all of this im hearing is true.


Hello? It says explain stuff... not truth... you practically alter people's words just for your own sake.

Quote: and you just dont understand the feelings im describing...maybe it cant be put into words i suppose..well doesnt matter,i know these and you dont....wisdom seems to be harder to learn than knowledge.


So do you understand being called gay when you're in 3rd grade? Do you understand living a lie for the majority of your life? Do you understand being outcasted by society where no one is there except one or two true friends? Do you understand how it feels to be the minority of the world? To have even your parents distrust you? Do you?

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priincess

priincess

?doing fun

number 13 is like number 666, n 666 is a latin's number for a king-i forgot the name of the king- the king at that time got bad luck n all of his publics in some countries were afraid of him. i think 666 isnt satan's number-thats weird.
actually all of us have faith of God-although with different sizes. n beside that, all of us also have some desires of Him-God made these feelings in our minds, so we can know that He's really there.

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I don't have faith of any god, what are you talking about?

13 is a superstition, forgot what caused it, also, 666 is usually refers to mark of the beast, not satan...

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ProgramZERO

ProgramZERO

The Lost Generation

Quote by kingray100well im not sure why,but im not afraid of the number 13...neither is anyone I know to tell you the truth...maybe you are.....as for hell,if its involved in the almighty bible's words,the it ought to be taken seriously...I hope you dont start saying that we shouldnt,because that would just be careless,right?

I'm not afraid of the number 13 and I'm not afraid of Hell. No evidence to show that the number 13 is unlucky and there is no evidence that Hell exists.

Quote: aside from you completely avoiding your previous personal christian life,you say that books and scriptures hold no truth and cant be trusted....you are thick headed if you say this....you simply only see the earth and stars,but nothing spiritual about you shows...as i've said before in the past,you are definitely hopeless if all of this im hearing is true.

No, I said that books and scriptures don't hold as much truth as Reason/Science.

Quote: as for my prayers,why would i tell you?

Because I asked you.

Quote: and you just dont understand the feelings im describing...maybe it cant be put into words i suppose..well doesnt matter,i know these and you dont....wisdom seems to be harder to learn than knowledge.

Everyone has felt the emotions you have felt before, including members of other so-called "false religions" who are comforted by the idea of Brahman or Buddha.

Sleeping peacefully on the edges of No Man's Land... Not all good is rewarded, not all evil is punished.

kingray100

kingray100

Ryu,the half demon

Quote by DarkRoseofHell

Quote: well im not sure why,but im not afraid of the number 13...neither is anyone I know to tell you the truth...maybe you are.....as for hell,if its involved in the almighty bible's words,the it ought to be taken seriously...I hope you dont start saying that we shouldnt,because that would just be careless,right?


Okay, there are people that are afraid of the number 13, don't know why, but its their superstitious belief, okay? Also, you have yet to back anything up for the bible that it is true and god's word...

Quote: aside from you completely avoiding your previous personal christian life,you say that books and scriptures hold no truth and cant be trusted....you are thick headed if you say this....you simply only see the earth and stars,but nothing spiritual about you shows...as i've said before in the past,you are definitely hopeless if all of this im hearing is true.


Hello? It says explain stuff... not truth... you practically alter people's words just for your own sake.

Quote: and you just dont understand the feelings im describing...maybe it cant be put into words i suppose..well doesnt matter,i know these and you dont....wisdom seems to be harder to learn than knowledge.


So do you understand being called gay when you're in 3rd grade? Do you understand living a lie for the majority of your life? Do you understand being outcasted by society where no one is there except one or two true friends? Do you understand how it feels to be the minority of the world? To have even your parents distrust you? Do you?

i've provided plenty of info to back up God's word.Just because you forgot or werent there to see it,doesnt mean i didnt.

and about my past,there has been plenty negative stuff in it...even including some of the things you've said...people can be cruel,but theres no need to assume that i mean nothing because i dont go through the exact things you did.

merged: 09-19-2007 ~ 04:31am

Quote by ProgramZERO

Quote by kingray100well im not sure why,but im not afraid of the number 13...neither is anyone I know to tell you the truth...maybe you are.....as for hell,if its involved in the almighty bible's words,the it ought to be taken seriously...I hope you dont start saying that we shouldnt,because that would just be careless,right?

I'm not afraid of the number 13 and I'm not afraid of Hell. No evidence to show that the number 13 is unlucky and there is no evidence that Hell exists.

Quote: aside from you completely avoiding your previous personal christian life,you say that books and scriptures hold no truth and cant be trusted....you are thick headed if you say this....you simply only see the earth and stars,but nothing spiritual about you shows...as i've said before in the past,you are definitely hopeless if all of this im hearing is true.

No, I said that books and scriptures don't hold as much truth as Reason/Science.

Quote: as for my prayers,why would i tell you?

Because I asked you.

Quote: and you just dont understand the feelings im describing...maybe it cant be put into words i suppose..well doesnt matter,i know these and you dont....wisdom seems to be harder to learn than knowledge.

Everyone has felt the emotions you have felt before, including members of other so-called "false religions" who are comforted by the idea of Brahman or Buddha.

realize that if there is plenty of info that supports the reliability of the bible,and its historical events...and if major parts of the bible are correct,then i would say that since we keep getting closer to the idea that there is a heaven,why would there not be a hell?its mentioned in the bible,the book that seems to find new evidence and claims all the time.Hell is more than just a place we havent been to....just because something is not seen,doesnt mean its not serious...

as for my prayers,thats my personal information that i will keep only for such people as myself and other religious officials.Maybe if you start realizing that maybe the bible isnt just a book on the shelf,i might tell you of the many things God has done for me.

ProgramZERO

ProgramZERO

The Lost Generation

Quote by kingray100realize that if there is plenty of info that supports the reliability of the bible,and its historical events...

Alright, what info supports the reliability of the bible?

Quote: and if major parts of the bible are correct,then i would say that since we keep getting closer to the idea that there is a heaven,why would there not be a hell?

But there is no evidence to suggest that Heaven exists either.

Quote: its mentioned in the bible,the book that seems to find new evidence and claims all the time.

What evidence and claims would these be?

Quote: Hell is more than just a place we havent been to....just because something is not seen,doesnt mean its not serious...

No, but there is still nothing to indicate that Hell is a 'serious threat'.

Quote: as for my prayers,thats my personal information that i will keep only for such people as myself and other religious officials.Maybe if you start realizing that maybe the bible isnt just a book on the shelf,i might tell you of the many things God has done for me.

Then don't bring it up.

Sleeping peacefully on the edges of No Man's Land... Not all good is rewarded, not all evil is punished.

My god talking to you is hard. If this were instant messaging it would be so much easier because you wouldnt forget so much of what we've gone over. Now as for proofs, you have brought up that you have some scholar buddies who fill you in on somethings, but cant bring forth anything such as an article. We couldnt even get it through your thick head how it would be prefered that you bring up such things as you complain that it would be wasting your time rather than ours reading your hollow arguments. Youve just been building your arguments upon saying that youve brought up proof. Such as? Everything Ive seen you bring up besides not being able to disprove the past as it cannot be seen is what youve brought up. No one knows what really happened in the past, as the bible goes against science and is the oldest books thanks to roman leaders who decided they needed a single holy scripture. I believe they also burned down the libraries containing all other books from their time, but I'm not sure if that is part of the same thesis. Anyway, if you brought up evidence, bring it up again or at least something you find that you think will somehow rock our worlds. By the way, we (the aitheists I would think) have brought up many things that you have not been able to deny. After all, the world (science) denies the bible does it not?

Quote: i've provided plenty of info to back up God's word.Just because you forgot or werent there to see it,doesnt mean i didnt.


You mean the info we slapped down? Give me proof that actually can not be refuted in any sort of way...

Quote: and about my past,there has been plenty negative stuff in it...even including some of the things you've said...people can be cruel,but theres no need to assume that i mean nothing because i dont go through the exact things you did.


So then why are you trying to tell us what to feel and such to where you actually think you can understand?

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kingray100

kingray100

Ryu,the half demon

Quote by DarkRoseofHell

Quote: i've provided plenty of info to back up God's word.Just because you forgot or werent there to see it,doesnt mean i didnt.


You mean the info we slapped down? Give me proof that actually can not be refuted in any sort of way...

Quote: and about my past,there has been plenty negative stuff in it...even including some of the things you've said...people can be cruel,but theres no need to assume that i mean nothing because i dont go through the exact things you did.


So then why are you trying to tell us what to feel and such to where you actually think you can understand?

none of my info was ever slapped down.It was just replaced with angry atheist remarks and people eventually forgot about the information I said...every week,i state a piece of info,and yet a week later, you guys ask..."Really?tell the info you found."when i told you guys already....it bothers me how i have to keep stating the same facts over and over again just because you want to ignore me...but whenever i say something that i already established,you guys ask again....

you guys are seriously going to have to back track and reread the stuff that I've said,because i dont find it useful for me to present info that you end up forgetting...

and that last statement you said made no sense...Im simply saying i didnt live a perfect life and i still dont...im telling you because of the bad things that happen in life happen to you,it also happens to everyone else and means nothing against the word of God...(just incase you misunderstand this,i said that having a bad life isnt a good excuse to blame God or use in a conversation such as this)

merged: 09-22-2007 ~ 10:38pm

Quote by marfish14My god talking to you is hard. If this were instant messaging it would be so much easier because you wouldnt forget so much of what we've gone over. Now as for proofs, you have brought up that you have some scholar buddies who fill you in on somethings, but cant bring forth anything such as an article. We couldnt even get it through your thick head how it would be prefered that you bring up such things as you complain that it would be wasting your time rather than ours reading your hollow arguments. Youve just been building your arguments upon saying that youve brought up proof. Such as? Everything Ive seen you bring up besides not being able to disprove the past as it cannot be seen is what youve brought up. No one knows what really happened in the past, as the bible goes against science and is the oldest books thanks to roman leaders who decided they needed a single holy scripture. I believe they also burned down the libraries containing all other books from their time, but I'm not sure if that is part of the same thesis. Anyway, if you brought up evidence, bring it up again or at least something you find that you think will somehow rock our worlds. By the way, we (the aitheists I would think) have brought up many things that you have not been able to deny. After all, the world (science) denies the bible does it not?

I've brought up many points and you've also brought up many points...the difference is that once i prove you statements wrong,you move on to something else without acknowledging that you were wrong in the first place...there isnt one statement that got past the explanations I presented...if so,then tell me...

and not all of science go against Christianity...parts of the big bang theory supports the thought of a God.

merged: 09-22-2007 ~ 10:42pm

Quote by ProgramZERO

Quote by kingray100realize that if there is plenty of info that supports the reliability of the bible,and its historical events...

Alright, what info supports the reliability of the bible?

Quote: and if major parts of the bible are correct,then i would say that since we keep getting closer to the idea that there is a heaven,why would there not be a hell?

But there is no evidence to suggest that Heaven exists either.

Quote: its mentioned in the bible,the book that seems to find new evidence and claims all the time.

What evidence and claims would these be?

Quote: Hell is more than just a place we havent been to....just because something is not seen,doesnt mean its not serious...

No, but there is still nothing to indicate that Hell is a 'serious threat'.

Quote: as for my prayers,thats my personal information that i will keep only for such people as myself and other religious officials.Maybe if you start realizing that maybe the bible isnt just a book on the shelf,i might tell you of the many things God has done for me.

Then don't bring it up.

if the bible is partly reliable,then it supports the ideal of there being a heaven....since every positive win for the bible is a win for the whole religion.

and again,I've stated why these documents and testimonies were reliable over and over again...i hope this doesnt sound rude but look it up yourself...I've told you,you forgot,so its your job to look it up again to refresh your memory.

and how the bible describes hell as being an eternal torture with fire involved,im sure that some people might think its a serious threat,maybe not in the current lives we have now,but in the afterlife.

Quote: none of my info was ever slapped down.It was just replaced with angry atheist remarks and people eventually forgot about the information I said...every week,i state a piece of info,and yet a week later, you guys ask..."Really?tell the info you found."when i told you guys already....it bothers me how i have to keep stating the same facts over and over again just because you want to ignore me...but whenever i say something that i already established,you guys ask again....


The only problem is, no one has knows what the hell you're talking about, you keep saying it is supported by scientific fact proving the bible is reliable, well where is the information? You always say that, yet you support it with nothing. Plus, if someone asks you to state something, then state it, if you're lazy to, then don't even bother saying you have information, you asked marfish on transitional fossils, he posted the list again, why not you?

Quote: and that last statement you said made no sense...Im simply saying i didnt live a perfect life and i still dont...im telling you because of the bad things that happen in life happen to you,it also happens to everyone else and means nothing against the word of God...(just incase you misunderstand this,i said that having a bad life isnt a good excuse to blame God or use in a conversation such as this)


No, I'm saying having a bad life has no meaning to religion because everyone will go through bad times, it gives no meaning to believe in any religion.

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kingray100

kingray100

Ryu,the half demon

Quote by DarkRoseofHell

Quote: none of my info was ever slapped down.It was just replaced with angry atheist remarks and people eventually forgot about the information I said...every week,i state a piece of info,and yet a week later, you guys ask..."Really?tell the info you found."when i told you guys already....it bothers me how i have to keep stating the same facts over and over again just because you want to ignore me...but whenever i say something that i already established,you guys ask again....


The only problem is, no one has knows what the hell you're talking about, you keep saying it is supported by scientific fact proving the bible is reliable, well where is the information? You always say that, yet you support it with nothing. Plus, if someone asks you to state something, then state it, if you're lazy to, then don't even bother saying you have information, you asked marfish on transitional fossils, he posted the list again, why not you?

Quote: and that last statement you said made no sense...Im simply saying i didnt live a perfect life and i still dont...im telling you because of the bad things that happen in life happen to you,it also happens to everyone else and means nothing against the word of God...(just incase you misunderstand this,i said that having a bad life isnt a good excuse to blame God or use in a conversation such as this)


No, I'm saying having a bad life has no meaning to religion because everyone will go through bad times, it gives no meaning to believe in any religion.

what do you mean?i answered marfish and his transitional fossil issue...and again,i've already stated the scientific facts already plenty of times...your just asking the same questions later in different threads.

and if that was why you stated your bad life,then I dont see a reason why you even mentioned it then,because it wasnt relevant to anything we were discussing..

Quote: what do you mean?i answered marfish and his transitional fossil issue...and again,i've already stated the scientific facts already plenty of times...your just asking the same questions later in different threads.


You've been stating history, that isn't scientific fact...

Quote: and if that was why you stated your bad life,then I dont see a reason why you even mentioned it then,because it wasnt relevant to anything we were discussing..


Well, you were talking about "personal" experiences, which is why... sheesh.

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ProgramZERO

ProgramZERO

The Lost Generation

Quote by kingray100if the bible is partly reliable,then it supports the ideal of there being a heaven....since every positive win for the bible is a win for the whole religion.

Just because one part may be true doesn't mean another part will be true.

Quote: and again,I've stated why these documents and testimonies were reliable over and over again...

No you haven't. All you have said is that they are reliable and you reason that people back then were "not likely to lie" and have presented nothing to indicate that that statement is true.

Quote: i hope this doesnt sound rude but look it up yourself...I've told you,you forgot,so its your job to look it up again to refresh your memory.

YOU are supposed to back up YOUR statements. YOU prove YOUR claim for us. We don't expect YOU to look up evidence to back up OUR claims do we?

Quote: and how the bible describes hell as being an eternal torture with fire involved,im sure that some people might think its a serious threat,maybe not in the current lives we have now,but in the afterlife.

Don't believe in Hell either, sorry.

Sleeping peacefully on the edges of No Man's Land... Not all good is rewarded, not all evil is punished.

That would probably be because I have not heard you actually disprove anything I've brought up. I dont know how you see things that went on in the past, because I dont remember you ever bringing up anything that could be actual evidence towards the existance of god, or disproving scientific fact. I can remember you leaving certain conversation alone after a long and tedious argument for several days, but never actually proving anything. Usually I have to bring up several facts over and over again and you still dont uncderstand even then. Like bringing up sources for information which happened maybe a month ago. You never got it though I wrought five messages reiterating what I had already said several times, while you complained and brought up ideas that I had even covered in the last message. Even now, you did not really answer my last message, instead of bringing anything, you decided to take the offence and throw what I said back at me. Well, I'll bring up a few ideas that do not agree with god and we have already arued about. I actually remember you not answering my long message on evolution. K, evolution, the world is older than six thousand years, the fact that god is omniscient, which would make it impossible to make anything that he did not know the outcome of, The Earth is not the centre of the universe, The fact that he created the devil "without knowing", and then not being able to stop him with imnipotent powers, the idea of a being who has always been even though it leaves us at square one since it is supposed to explain where the matter came from, the fact that god created us and wants us to worship him, and even though he created us and our minds, he has decided that some shall not go to heaven by making them not believe in him. I'm sure we discussed more than this, but this is all I can think of at the moment. Now, if you would be so kind as to bring up those ideas of yours that somehow stumped us instead of zeroing in on something else to avoid the question such as your last message.

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