Quote by kellyo
So you know the "facts" about God and the Bible? Wow. You actually have no idea what my belief is based on -
it has nothing to do with desire as you describe; therefore, I'm the exception which proves your point cannot be
taken as a true generality of all Christians.
If you KNEW your faith was nothing but your own desire to want it to be true then I guess you wouldn't believe in
it anymore would you? Your belief in an invisible man in the sky obviously wasn't based on evidence or logic though
was it? His point still stands.
Quote:
Quote: Faith is the
argument used when all reason disappears. Follow my reasoning if you will:
Wait a minute. According to your first statement, we should have no faith in your
reasoning.
That's a pretty lame copout. By your logic I can say you believe in an invisible supreme being and are therefore
insane. So now I can just ignore every point you have to make because everything you say is just the insane ramblings of
some nutjob. Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean all their arguments are instantly flawed.
Quote:
Quote: Your argument for miracles is not based on logic, reason or science
of any sort...Many believing philosophers have been forced to abandon the seemingly indefensible position on
miracles.
What exactly do you mean by "indefensible?" Unlike the person you seem to be responding to, my faith is based
off of logic and reason. I have in fact studied Hume, McKinnon, Smart, Flew, Erlandson, Troeltsch, and the like. They
have all presented arguments against miracles and everyone has a response.
If you claim it's "indefensible" then you are claiming that someone has a "watertight" logical
reason to prove their point. So which one is it?
Uh I think you should look up indefensible or something man. He's saying a stance on miracles isn't even a
reasonable position to take. By definition a miracle is an unreasonable assumption made to explain an odd occurance. I
mean jeez, we have an entire thread here on miracles and nobody has pointed out a single one. Not even a retarded one
like an image of jesus on a wood grain or a virgin mary statue crying blood. Nothing. Oh and name dropping a bunch of
philosophers (who disagree with you) doesn't help you make much sense either. What, people responded to these guys
so miracles are logical explainations of the world now? Guh?
Quote:
Here's some logical reasoning for you.
1. If a theistic God exists, then miracles are possible.
2. A miracle is a special act of God.
3. God is the source and standard of all truth; He cannot err.
4. Nor would a theistic God act to confirm something as true that was false.
5. Therefore, true miracles in connection with a message confirm that message to be from God: (a) The miracle confirms
the message. (b) The sign confirms the sermon. (c) An act of God confirms the Word of God. (d) New revelation needs new
confirmation.
Not a single part of that was logical. Logical - Based on earlier or otherwise known statements, events, or conditions.
YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT IS BASED ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT GOD EXISTS. Then you end it with a statement that basically states
"because God did it God obviously did it, and that confirms that God did it". Yeah that's some serious
logic for you. Thanks for that you've changed my perception of the universe.
You can't use god to prove miracles if the whole point of proving miracles is to prove the existence of god.
It'd be like going to court and saying you didn't commit a crime because you had an alibi, and you had an
alibi because you didn't commit the crime. It makes no sense. You have to prove one to prove the other, however in
your case both are unprovable. Yup that's religion for ya.
Quote:
If there is an all-powerful, all-good, and all-wise God, then it follows that He would not perform a miraculous act to
confirm a lie. Since miracles are by nature special acts of God, God would not act contrary to his own nature. The God
of all truth would not miraculously confirm error. Hence, when a truth claim is repeatedly confirmed by miracles, such
as the Old Testament prophets, Jesus, and the New Testament apostles did, then it is true and all opposing views are
false.
I can't tell if you really have a point to make here or if you're just babbling to confuse people. What does a
miracle have to do with God not lying? Wtf is a truth claim? Pretend I have no idea wtf you're talking about here
and explain it (because I seriously don't).
Quote:
Several criteria can be established, on the basis of principles discussed above, for allowing miracles as a confirmation
of a truth claim. These are criteria for apologetically valuable miracles. They all assume miracles to be possible.
Confirming miracles should be: 1) Connected with a Truth Claim. 2) Truly Supernatural. 3) Unique. 4) Mulitple. 5)
Predictive.
Wow that's a pretty roundabout way of saying absolutely nothing. And you've yet to give us an example of what
you even consider a miracle.
Quote: Of course I could go deeper into these five categories but, wait, I
just remembered that Christians do not follow or apply any logical reasoning. Hmmm.
FINALLY you're making some sense. Fhew.
Ok so here's something for you. There's really only two reasons for your God to create a miracle.
1.) Change an event
2.) Prove he exists
Since he obviously doesn't want to prove he exists since he could just as easily do something truly miraculous like
build a mountain in the desert with the words "WORSHIP ME" written across the sky and giant squirrels playing
banjos, then we have to assume it's to change an event.
Let's take some person living through a car crash as an example since that's one of the few even labeled here.
Person survives horrible crash - Miracle. But if god is all knowing and all powerful he could have just as easily saved
this person without the whole car crash thing and covered his existence without the miraculous event even raising
anyone's suspicions. The whole concept of miracles doesn't even make sense except to convert non believers by
convincing them to accept an event as proof of a god. Yet when they're in the religion they find out that god works
in mysterious ways and actually doesn't want to prove himself at all, so you have to use faith. I guess by
mysterious they really mean stupid. He was probably too busy planting dinosaur bones and winning football games to
figure out his own motives.
