Miracles? Do they support religion / discredit scientific camp?

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Quote: Not quite. I knew you didn't study philosophy and I knew you wouldn't be able to answer my questions concerning McKinnon's argument (this argument was used because this thread is about miracles). However, unlike you, I made the choice to leave your answer alone - until alexjohn asked me to specifically address it.

My answer and your "official" answer said roughly the same thing and I only had to glance at your quote to do it. You can deny that as much as you want but anyone can go back and read exactly what was said so it doesn't matter anyway.

Quote: Again, this is what you place your faith in since you cannot prove that after you die you will not be face to face with Christ. There's no need to argue that because neither of us can prove it well enough to convince the other. So, instead of continue to argue and insult as opposed to debate then let's just agree to disagree. You place your faith in your beliefs and I mine.

So typical...You seriously don't see the difference? I say when you die you just die and that's it. The most logical answer. You however have to invent 3 brand new entities/concepts...

1. A soul
2. Heaven
3. The ghost/angel/reincarnation/shinigami of Christ. Or is Christ god? Son of god, god himself, I'm pretty sure not even the bible is consistent on that one...But I digress.

As much as you like to rationally justify your beliefs compared to mine, the fact is you aren't even on the same plane of reality.

Quote: So, instead of continue to argue and insult as opposed to debate then let's just agree to disagree.

Oh I've already agreed to disagree. We were never trying to convince each other in the first place, I just like arguing and you like to try and show what an educated fundie you are (an oxymoron?).

And I HAVE been trying to debate you. The problem is what you can't respond to you avoid, and what you don't avoid you purposefully misinterpret. "Debating" you is nothing but a lesson in frustration. And if you look back I didn't really insult you until you called me illiterate and since then I've actually shown restraint.

Mar 12, 2006
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Archer79 Nerdly Ghost

Quote by Plunkies
3. The ghost/angel/reincarnation/shinigami of Christ. Or is Christ god? Son of god, god himself, I'm pretty sure not even the bible is consistent on that one...But I digress.

You shouldn't have digressed. The 12 apostles in God's presence said "Truely this was the son of God". ...Further, in the council on Niocea, it was resolved that Jesus was both truely human and truely God. This is why the Niocene Creed contains the phrase "only begotton Son".

Perhaps even more importantly, the coming of Jesus was foretold ages before Jesus actually arrived, and was prefigured by the record of Abraham and Issac. Why would God suggest that a man sacrifice his son, then stop him before he did it? ...Because that was what God had to do. ...True blood -- True body -- Truely human -- Truely God.

...Substantiated by precedence, recounts and tradition that followed the chronicles of Jesus' life on Earth.

...The Roman Soldier charged with overseeing the execution of Christ also claimed him to be the Son of God.

merged: 03-12-2006 ~ 11:16pm

Quote by ProgramZERO BTW, if miracles truly exist, why is the number of people who have been cured from AIDS continue to be zero? Where is God or Jesus then?o_0

If they anyone was cured would you know? Do you watch these TV shows? Would it even pass your notice if someone had?

...Sigh... The beauty of grace is that it makes life unfair. ...It's God's to give. ...And He's not obligated morally or otherwise to do so.

Incidentally, if people lived the way God told us to live... ...No sex outside of marriage, and without divorce... ...It would be more difficult to transfer horrific STDs like AIDs. ...That is, of course, not implying the disease is punishment. ...The disease is simply a disease. ...And there will inevitably be even worse diseases.

Mar 12, 2006
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alexjohnc3

Archer79, my parents made me to go a Catholic program that promoted no sex out of marriage. It isn't that which keeps STDs out of people, it is not having sex with people who have STDs or just not having sex. IMO it is extremely arrogant for Catholics to STDs to promote their religious beliefs.

mikare, that's a bit hard to believe. Mind posting the medical journal you got that information from? Thanks. And Science doesn't improve, science is a philosophy that requires empirical evidence. It is the information that we obtain from scientific reasoning and observation that improves and how we apply that knowledge. Religion has done some good I suppose, but overall it has caused much more death and suffering (and still is) then it has done good. The moral standards are overrated, I was really surprised when I first learned that Christians believe God created a definite morality, I still find it disturbing.

Mar 12, 2006
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kellyo

Quote by Plunkies

Quote: Again, this is what you place your faith in since you cannot prove that after you die you will not be face to face with Christ. There's no need to argue that because neither of us can prove it well enough to convince the other. So, instead of continue to argue and insult as opposed to debate then let's just agree to disagree. You place your faith in your beliefs and I mine.

So typical...You seriously don't see the difference? I say when you die you just die and that's it. The most logical answer. You however have to invent 3 brand new entities/concepts...

Cjome on. Read what I typed. You cannot prove atheism beyond all reasonable doubt so that everyone will agree and the same applies to me. That quote applied the "faith" aspect of this post. You have faith in what you believe and so do I and so does the Muslim who believes 70 virgins await and so does the....

Quote: As much as you like to rationally justify your beliefs compared to mine, the fact is you aren't even on the same plane of reality.

Fact? It wasn't presented here - just a bunch of opinions by you. See how easy this is to say: "As much as you like to rationally justify your beliefs in atheism compared to my Theism, the fact is you aren't even on the same plane of reality." You proved nothing - yet again.

Quote: Oh I've already agreed to disagree. We were never trying to convince each other in the first place, I just like arguing and you like to try and show what an educated fundie you are (an oxymoron?).

Another intelligent response - actually a very intolerant, bigoted response.

Quote: And I HAVE been trying to debate you. The problem is what you can't respond to you avoid, and what you don't avoid you purposefully misinterpret. "Debating" you is nothing but a lesson in frustration. And if you look back I didn't really insult you until you called me illiterate and since then I've actually shown restraint.

I have yet to misinterpret anything of yours. I've used your own words against you but have never misinterpreted. Honestly, there's nothing to misinterpret. Avoid your arguments? Only the leprechaun. Why? I'm Irish. I believe in leprechauns. Actually, that argument does nothing. Since you can't disprove God and I can't "perfectly" disprove the leprechaun doesn't change anything. It certainly doesn't mean the Bible is wrong. Therefore, why waste the time on that non-sense that produces no conclusion. Other than that, I've avoided nothing of your "reason."

Also, you stated that syllogisms aren't used anymore. Again, showing your lack of reason and logic. Every single post of yours includes a premise or more which leads to a conclusion. In order to prove your conclusion false, we simply show your premise false. I've never heard of any attorney who stands up to give his/her opening remarks and says, "Therefore, he's innocent." Non-sence. Every debate, if you're trying to make a point, has a premise that leads to a conclusion - ie. syllogism. If they're not used anymore then you'd never be able to make a point.

Mar 12, 2006
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alexjohnc3

Quote by kellyo
Quote by PlunkiesSo typical...You seriously don't see the difference? I say when you die you just die and that's it. The most logical answer. You however have to invent 3 brand new entities/concepts...

Cjome on. Read what I typed. You cannot prove atheism beyond all reasonable doubt so that everyone will agree and the same applies to me. That quote applied the "faith" aspect of this post. You have faith in what you believe and so do I and so does the Muslim who believes 70 virgins await and so does the....

Kellyo, you cannot prove that there are no supernatural entities, but as I said before the logical thing to do is have a negative view. Once again, an example: If someone told you that an invisible, undetectable, pink unicorn was behind you the logical thing to do would be to deny its existence until that person proves that it is there. Atheism can be justified through this logic and theism has to provide the evidence. Atheism is simply a lack of theism.

Quote:
Quote: As much as you like to rationally justify your beliefs compared to mine, the fact is you aren't even on the same plane of reality.

Fact? It wasn't presented here - just a bunch of opinions by you. See how easy this is to say: "As much as you like to rationally justify your beliefs in atheism compared to my Theism, the fact is you aren't even on the same plane of reality." You proved nothing - yet again.

That doesn't work. Atheism isn't a belief, it is a lack of a belief.

Mar 12, 2006
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mikare

Quote by alexjohnc3mikare, that's a bit hard to believe. Mind posting the medical journal you got that information from? Thanks. And Science doesn't improve, science is a philosophy that requires empirical evidence. It is the information that we obtain from scientific reasoning and observation that improves and how we apply that knowledge. Religion has done some good I suppose, but overall it has caused much more death and suffering (and still is) then it has done good. The moral standards are overrated, I was really surprised when I first learned that Christians believe God created a definite morality, I still find it disturbing.

I said it was a story because it's exactly that - a story I heard from church where a couple was sharing their experience. So I can't exactly link you to anything scientific. I generalized, but the idea is the same. The information we learn and what we use it for helps to improve situations like health and all that.

What you said about deaths and suffering is true, but that can happen outside of religion too. And well, that's really off topic anyways - not that I can say much about that situation.

Atheism is a lack of belief in the existance of God/gods, which is the same thing as saying the belief that there is no God/gods.

Mar 13, 2006
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Shinsengumi89 The Watcher of Movies

Well in my humble opinion the word mircale is just a word that poeple use to describe something that we THINK is supernatrual. Such as someone coming from a burning building untouched. So a miracle is just a perception of something not an actual action. I myself do not belive in miracles i just feel they are random events that just SEEM amazing.

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Mar 13, 2006
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kellyo

Quote by alexjohnc3
Kellyo, you cannot prove that there are no supernatural entities,

That's a double negative; therefore, according to that statement, I can prove supernatural entities.

Quote: but as I said before the logical thing to do is have a negative view. Once again, an example: If someone told you that an invisible, undetectable, pink unicorn was behind you the logical thing to do would be to deny its existence until that person proves that it is there.

You're right. But that's not what Christianity or the Bible do. We don't just tell someone "God is standing behind you and if you can't prove it then I must be right."

Quote: Atheism can be justified through this logic and theism has to provide the evidence. Atheism is simply a lack of theism.

Sure, if that's what we claimed.

Quote:
That doesn't work. Atheism isn't a belief, it is a lack of a belief.

Does an atheist believe that to be true? You cannot claim that an atheist has no belief, it's simply not a valid argument and self-contradictory.

Mar 13, 2006
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Plunkies

Quote: You shouldn't have digressed. The 12 apostles in God's presence said "Truely this was the son of God". ...Further, in the council on Niocea, it was resolved that Jesus was both truely human and truely God. This is why the Niocene Creed contains the phrase "only begotton Son".

Okay I get it. So he was truly the son of god. But also human. And also god himself. But definately not a space alien. Gotcha. At least the contradictions are consistent. Hehe, Archer I like you. You give me something to work with. Infact I'll tell you what I'll do...Since I just think Jesus was some dude I'll just say you're right about the bible saying he's the son of god. But Jesus also said he and god are one so in exchange you have to at least admit you're polytheistic, it's only fair :)

Quote: Perhaps even more importantly, the coming of Jesus was foretold ages before Jesus actually arrived, and was prefigured by the record of Abraham and Issac.

Shhhh....Don't tell that to the jews...

Quote: ...Sigh... The beauty of grace is that it makes life unfair. ...It's God's to give. ...And He's not obligated morally or otherwise to do so.

Right. Because god works in mysterious ways correct? I suppose it's easier to say that rather than "God decided to cure this guy of cancer! It's a miracle! Oh but sorry these other 2000 people over here are screwed, god couldn't care less". I wouldn't like living in a world where the god was such a jerk. And who made this guy god? What is this, a monarchy? It's totally unamerican, we should have an election and I nominate myself as the new god! I'm pretty sure god took money from Jack Abramoff anyway. So as god, my first act would be to smite anyone who uses the phrase "god works in mysterious ways" or any variation.

And as for kellyo.....*sigh*

Quote: Fact? It wasn't presented here - just a bunch of opinions by you. See how easy this is to say: "As much as you like to rationally justify your beliefs in atheism compared to my Theism, the fact is you aren't even on the same plane of reality." You proved nothing - yet again.

Uh...I guess you can say that but it wouldn't make sense. The whole point was you have to make stuff up for your religion to work. You see I'm backed up by reality...No magic, no invisible anythings, get it yet?

Quote: Another intelligent response - actually a very intolerant, bigoted response.

Really? You think? I thought it was funny personally. Ah well. I lost my patience with you days ago so you'll have to forgive me for any low blows.

Quote: I have yet to misinterpret anything of yours.

Oh yes you have. Probably in almost every post. Maybe not even on purpose. I'd go back and post some examples but I can barely be bothered to respond to your newer posts so screw that. Luckily we have a few coming up so don't worry....you do it constantly.

Quote: Also, you stated that syllogisms aren't used anymore...

And here's our first misinterpretation. Boy we didn't have to look too hard for one of those did we. In the form you were using them, those types of rigid and impractical syllogisms are rarely used anymore. Now you try to group everything you can into the definition of a syllogism simply to prove me wrong. Now you have to go about redefining the word syllogism just to...I dunno....what is it you're trying to do....annoy me? Anyway it won't work although I'm sure you probably get away with crap like this against most people don't you?

Quote: That's a double negative; therefore, according to that statement, I can prove supernatural entities.

Ouch. Another one, this one clearly misinterpreted on purpose. Obviously he meant "You can't prove an entity's lack of existence." but you chose to pull grammar nazi on his ass and really showed him didn't you? Nice job.

Quote: You're right. But that's not what Christianity or the Bible do. We don't just tell someone "God is standing behind you and if you can't prove it then I must be right."

Actually that's pretty much what you've been doing all along. You say your beliefs are equal to my lack of beliefs because I can't prove yours are definitively wrong. Which is likely what he meant as well. Another misinterpretation maybe? Meh, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one.

Quote: Does an atheist believe that to be true? You cannot claim that an atheist has no belief, it's simply not a valid argument and self-contradictory.

Here's another one. More semantics too. Lack of belief IN GOD (and everything related to it). Saying atheism is a belief or that atheism is a religion is like saying bald is a hair color. A vacuum is emptiness, no matter. Yet you'd probably say a vacuum is "full" of emptiness and therefore not a vacuum. No belief in the supernatural. Go write that down. A belief is just something you accept as true. Maybe next you can argue the definition of "the".

Mar 13, 2006
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mountain None

um, wow, a real fight has actually broken out....
here are just some websites that posts of multiple supernatural events happening. I think some of the stories are crap but then some are quite good in showing that supernatural stuff do happen, and f**K some of these are just creepy

http://www.wintersteel.com/Events.html
http://www.paranormaldatabase.com/dorset/dorsdata.php
http://69.49.226.13/seg/articles/supernatural_news.htm
www.ghosttoghost.com
www.paranormaldatabase.com/derbyshire/derbyshire.htm
www.edinburghghostfest.com/events.htm
http://www.cuhk.edu.hk/ant/others/A%20Study%20of%20Shamanism.pdf
http://www.paranormalwatch.com/page/3/
http://www.qigong.com/true-healing-miracles.htm

theres a lot more but I dun have that much time, some u may say are just crap websites and that anyone can post them, but some are media articles and from respectabel sources.

Mar 13, 2006
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Mnemeth Rider of the Currents

Quote by kellyoDoes an atheist believe that to be true? You cannot claim that an atheist has no belief, it's simply not a valid argument and self-contradictory.

Actually the definition of atheist can be expanded to "one who who does not believe in the existence of any guiding force/entity other than an individuals own will".

Quote by kellyoThat's a double negative; therefore, according to that statement, I can prove supernatural entities.

Knock yourself out. Of course proof is generally regarded as a scientific term and has very little to do with things like faith or belief. On that note I'd bet that most people are very unaware of how many facts are merely theories that have yet to be disproved. Also, keep in mind that a theory is just a belief with some supporting data similar to most religions.

Quote by PlunkiesShhhh....Don't tell that to the jews...

Nah, they just don't believe he's gotten here yet. :)

Quote by PlunkiesThe whole point was you have to make stuff up for your religion to work. You see I'm backed up by reality...No magic, no invisible anythings, get it yet?

That is kinda the difference between reality based belief and religious faith. Is either entirely correct? Well I suppose that depends on what YOU believe. If you wnat to prove your belief (see response to kellyo above) then a theist must prove the existence of a higher power and an atheist must disprove the existence of a higher power. Since neither can perform this act, the question becomes sort of rhetorical and its answer is based soley on the beliefs of those involved.

Quote by Mountainum, wow, a real fight has actually broken out....
here are just some websites that posts of multiple supernatural events happening. I think some of the stories are crap but then some are quite good in showing that supernatural stuff do happen, and f**K some of these are just creepy

And yet some supernatural events have fallen to the institution of science and more will. Will all, well that remains to be seen. As we learn these events are sometimes explained. Example the first people who had gunpowder used agains them probably thought it was magic until they learned how it worked. Of course its at this point some believe the world started going to h%^& in a handbasket but thats another subject.

Do not interfere in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

Mar 13, 2006
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kellyo

Quote by Plunkies

Quote by kellyo Does an atheist believe that to be true? You cannot claim that an atheist has no belief, it's simply not a valid argument and self-contradictory.

Here's another one. More semantics too. Lack of belief IN GOD (and everything related to it). Saying atheism is a belief or that atheism is a religion is like saying bald is a hair color. A vacuum is emptiness, no matter. Yet you'd probably say a vacuum is "full" of emptiness and therefore not a vacuum. No belief in the supernatural. Go write that down. A belief is just something you accept as true. Maybe next you can argue the definition of "the".

You did it again. You say this "a belief is just something you accept as true." Atheism makes a statement, and one you've repeated over and over, that it is a "lack of belief in GOD (and everything related to it)."

So, if use your own words, do you accept that definition as true? If so, then you believe in it.

Mar 13, 2006
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alexjohnc3

Quote by mikareAtheism is a lack of belief in the existance of God/gods, which is the same thing as saying the belief that there is no God/gods.

No it isn't. Atheism does not say that no gods exist, it just says that atheists don't believe in god. The term "strong atheist" is one who believes no gods exist (sometimes this is only applied to the gods from religions and not "gods" in general) and there is also the term "weak atheist" which says that you don't believe a God exists. Atheism in general is weak atheism, but making an assertion about something and simply not believing an assertion due to a lack of evidence are two different things.

Quote by kellyo
Quote: Kellyo, you cannot prove that there are no supernatural entities,

That's a double negative; therefore, according to that statement, I can prove supernatural entities.

Yes you can prove that there are supernatural entities. That's not the point; the point is that it cannot be proven that no supernatural entities exist through direct evidence (e.g. you can't find that no supernatural entities exist because they could be hiding from you, even if you searched the entire Universe). It can only be "proven" indirectly.

Quote: You're right. But that's not what Christianity or the Bible do. We don't just tell someone "God is standing behind you and if you can't prove it then I must be right."

Okay... I think what you meant was, "God is standing behind you and if you can't prove me wrong then then I must be correct." Otherwise you'd be saying that if they couldn't prove you correct then you'd be wrong. If you assert that God exists you have to prove it, while an atheist does not have to do so because they don't assert anything.

Quote:
Quote: Atheism can be justified through this logic and theism has to provide the evidence. Atheism is simply a lack of theism.

Sure, if that's what we claimed.

Yes it is what you claim. You claim that there is a supernatural entity that cannot be proven to exist. You justify its existence with faith and the same can be done to the invisible, undetectable, pink unicorn. Thereby showing that faith is not a justification for the truth.

Quote:
Quote:
That doesn't work. Atheism isn't a belief, it is a lack of a belief.

Does an atheist believe that to be true? You cannot claim that an atheist has no belief, it's simply not a valid argument and self-contradictory.

Does an atheist believe that they have a lack of a belief in god(s)? Yes. I'm not stating atheists don't believe things about themselves, just that they don't believe in any god(s). There is nothing contradictory about that and it isn't an argument.

Mar 13, 2006
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Shinsengumi89 The Watcher of Movies

Hey, I am an Athiest I looked this up in my World Book 2004 to see the definiton of Athiest. It is the lack of theisim but the belif that their is not Supernatrual being or that it is impossible to pprove their is no super natrual being so in a way your both right!

PS you can be a Buddist and an Athiest because not all sects of buddisim belive in a supernatrual being. Hope i could help

Mar 13, 2006
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alexjohnc3

Yes you did help, however that definition is wrong.

Here's a good article that sums it up very well: http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/strong_weak.htm

I think I'm really getting off topic now, but I think we've gotten the fact that atheism itself is not a denial of God, but that there is a specific type of atheism that does deny God.

Mar 13, 2006
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happypenguin44

Yes miracles happen. This may sound stupid, but I had like a really bad grade in math. So I prayed to God [I literally poured out my heart], and when I got my report card, my grade raised. I know this isn't those being brought back to life kind of miracles, but to me this is a miracle.

Mar 23, 2006
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RubyDrg0n Wanna-be-Drg0n

alexjohnc3:
hahaha... in conjunction to your post...
i would like to say that there are all kind of human categories in the world...
and that ppl tend to think that if you are not on one side.. you are on the other...

it is just like having a group of ppl eating bread with peanutbutter and another with jam.... if i am not eating peanutbutter and bread, then i will be in the catergory eating bread and jam....?
i can be eating plain bread, or bread with honey, or peanutbutter and jelly, or etc...

i think ppl are assuming that they know all the possilbilities and make up their mind too fast....
so to contribute to the examples given...
artheism:
1. artheist who dun believe in any form of entity
2. arthiest who dun wanna be in any believing group aka religion
3. arthiest who chooses their own way of thinking
4. arthiest who think that they are artheist but they are not
5. etc...

there can also be some arthiests which
1. are fanatics
2. talk too much
3. do charity and go to temples or churches
4. preach the idea of arthiesm
5. wanna be alone
6. lie...
7. etc

the variation is so huge that i really think ppl should really give a good thought about it when talking to someone...

of coz... this applies not to arthiest only but all...

anyway... miracles is a self-perspection....
can something like
-saying i might die the next day and really die a miracle?
-saying getting a really tough job or tender through 100000 huge companies when you are juz a small company a miracle?
To some of us it may be a miracle... but to some ppl it might be a curse... and also to some of us... it is possible but getting the chance to have that is too small to consider....

Mar 23, 2006
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