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Democracy, to what extent?

Would you rather live in a Democratic system that is ..

Representative
7 votes
Direct
4 votes
No democracy! ouahahaahaha!
4 votes

Only members can vote.

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candy-chan

Retired Moderator

candy-chan

Direct democracy, classically termed pure democracy, is a political system where the people vote on government decisions, such as questions of whether to approve or reject various laws. It is called direct because the power of making decisions is exercized by the people directly, without intermediaries or representatives.

Representative democracy is a political system where the people vote on government members, who are then expected to make decisions in accordance with the interests of their voters. It is called representative because the people do not vote on government decisions directly, but elect representatives to decide for them.

--more information on the Wikipedia page on Democracy

Both systems have positive and negative aspects.
- Living in a direct democracy is extremely interesting as any citizen can have a share of say in any debate or decision. But, as the people who assist to General Assemblies know, it is a very long process and can bore some.
- Representative democracy doesn't take as much time and is easier to organise and live in. But is easier really better? Are you ready to have full confidence in someone and make him/her decide for your sake? Would you not want to take decisions on what affects you and your environment yourself?


Are you ready to give a lot of your time into going to vote a lot more often, attend general assemblies regularly? Or would you rather have someone else do the job for you?

Shinsengumi89

Shinsengumi89

The Watcher of Movies

Gread thread CandyChan Yes i would rather live in a Direct democracy such as Athens not a Republic such as the United States, see whenever Mr. Bush uses his term democracy he uses incorectly. Were in a Republic not a Democracy. So I rather be able to represent myself not some peson who dosen't even know me.

merged: 04-16-2006 ~ 02:15am
When i said Athen i went, when it was a City Sstate.

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Quote: Yes i would rather live in a Direct democracy such as Athens not a Republic such as the United States

Would this preferred Athenian-styled democracy come equipped with the same right to banish citizens by popular vote the original came with? And the army that it used to go about crushing all of its neighbors? And the empire?

I, personally, am not a fan of democracy, particularly of the direct type. It entrusts the running of government to the masses who, quite simply, aren't up to the task. This might not be so bad if the franchise was limited, but people object to that. Plus there's the fact that as populations get bigger, direct democracy becomes impractical; holding a town meeting in New York City, for instance, is near impossible.

Direct Democracy just isn't feasible for countries with so many people. Even though people are skeptical of representatives, they are more suited to doing their job than the average Joe. I vote for Representative.

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LordStyphon is right...I agree with him....In a Representative, you can protest if the action done by that leader isn't right/going out of bounds...in other words you can also direct the decision in a way that everyone agrees...but surely that leader always think for the betterness of everyone, don't you think?...* if he can't do that, he has no right to be a leader...it's better for him to step down...LOL...well anyway...before a law is passed, it undergoes with many process...so midway in the process..you can always debate/question the law that is going to be implemented by protesting...that's one way...

Mnemeth

Mnemeth

Rider of the Currents

A "democratic republic" is a far better way to run such a large nation. If the system in place works to keep balance between the masses and representatives then the nation is much better off that trying to have every decision made by popular vote. Remember a person is smart. People as a mass group tend to be idiots.

Do not interfere in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

Acyx

Ork Warlord

Quote by MnemethA "democratic republic" is a far better way to run such a large nation. If the system in place works to keep balance between the masses and representatives then the nation is much better off that trying to have every decision made by popular vote. Remember a person is smart. People as a mass group tend to be idiots.

Idiots come and go, I frankly feel that idiocy in many societies (such as even my very own U.S.) is encouraged as that an idiot's opinions are easier to sway and manipulate for personal gain, or for the sheer aspect of control. As was stated earlier by another poster about easier being better, that is not always the case. A direct democracy would be incredibly hard to maintain, and of course would be more of a better addition in that of a static society that does not advance incramentally for hundreds (or thousands) of years at a time. The representative democracy is of course better suited for where we are at now, as that once the levy breaks on that of scientific advancement (big business, such as the oil industry are only prolonging the inevitable), the entirety of our planet will change socially and economically in a series of (radical in cases) overhauls. A direct democracy would probably not survive in a nonstatic environment filled with rapid change, especially not in the information/fusion age earth we inhabit now.

We, in the grand scheme of things are still quite new on the block. One hundred years ago, most of America was agrarian, cities were lit with gas lamps, there was no concept of such things as outer space, or DNA technologies, or computers. To some, the sense of the simple agrarian mindset is engrained so deeply, that with modernity and it's "horrors" of technological advances, the abandonment of God and the embracing of reason, and all the things which they do not understand may lead to fundamentalism or the embracing of extreme ideology as a security blanket. You and I in the intelligent debate aspect are separated by hundreds (if not thousands) of miles and speaking freely through that of a forum. We both have the advantage also of being intelligent and civilized beings, and can admit when we're wrong, or reach consensus on a particular issue. Not all are as gifted, or intelligent though. A direct democracy instituted in this era would probably be ravaged by rioting and complete chaos as elements of both right and left wings sought to essentially prove who's right via force. In more extreme cases, this could even deteriorate into domestic terrorism, or eventually even civil war.

Until the day that we decide that we have advanced far enough beyond our original constraints (this may even be a dangerous decision), we probably won't employ a direct democracy as a governmental structure. Not that it would not work; It just won't work here right now. The free exchange of ideas is noble I'm sure, a great way to express views on a particular subject or line of inquiry. It's when someone aims to cause you bodily harm for disagreeing upon their view, or hearing only what you want to hear that problems begin to arise in the system.

Representative democracy would probably be the better option, with a couple overhauls and some takings out of the trash (I.E. the entire American Neoconservative branch, rotten eggs scattered across both parties, and the entirety of the corporate lobbying base in the case of my own), it will probably work quite well. To think, many of these problems could have been prevented simply by the use of a little bit more foresight and anticipation of consequence for things such as imperialism, although, in the modern era politicians have proven that it's perfectly fine to create your own reality, a precedent I'm sure others will follow with disasterous consequences until or unless the people step back in again.

-Acyx

"And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy." And the Lord did grin. And the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths, and carp and anchovies, and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit-bats and large chu..."

The first thing to worry about isn't what sort of democracy you go with, it's what limits the power of that democracy should have. No use of force can ever be legitimate if not in the defence of someone's freedom, even if it is "democratic" force.

joemighty16

joemighty16

Hope is an optimist

Quote by LordStyphon

Quote: Yes i would rather live in a Direct democracy such as Athens not a Republic such as the United States

Would this preferred Athenian-styled democracy come equipped with the same right to banish citizens by popular vote the original came with? And the army that it used to go about crushing all of its neighbors? And the empire?

I, personally, am not a fan of democracy, particularly of the direct type. It entrusts the running of government to the masses who, quite simply, aren't up to the task. This might not be so bad if the franchise was limited, but people object to that. Plus there's the fact that as populations get bigger, direct democracy becomes impractical; holding a town meeting in New York City, for instance, is near impossible.


You refer to ostracism: Once a year (487-415 BC in Athens) a vote was placed to the assembly wether or not they wanted to hold an astroacism. If the majority voted so, they would write the names of public speakers and magistrates (who else would get enough attention?) on pot shards (literally ostraka) and only IF any given nominee has received 6000 votes or more, were he bansihed for 10 years. While he was gone, all his property were frozen (intact under his name - no one could touch it) and he could return after his 10 years as if nothing happened.

Now, take note that in 5 cent Athens, the total estimate of citizens is said to ne 30,000. By citizens I of course mean men that were able to fight. The rest (women, children, slaves, foreigners) weren't citizens. Only men that served as soldiers were able to vote in the assemblies. And they were spread out across Attica (alsmost all of them were farmers). Usually an average of 3000 shoved up for the weekly assemblies in the agora. If someone really hateful were to be voted on they would make a point of comming though. Prominent men who were ostracized were Themistokles (hero of Salamis), Kimon, and Thucydides (historian). All of them due to botched military opperations (except Kimon - he acted like an ass).

Anyway. You are right on the democracy bit. Democarcy IMO was implemented by politicians who wanted to suck up to the masses. Up to that point, the aristocracy called the votes, and the soldiers voted on it. After Kleisthenes and especially after Perikles even those that did nothing for their city state had a vote (only a vote though - the rest could be chosen for parlement).

My frustration is just that we today (most Western countries) call ourself democracies when in fact even the Romans under the emporers were more democratic than we are today. Thats just sheer false propoganda!

Demos = people/regions/villages
Kratos (-cracy) = power of
Hence "power of the people"

Does our people have any power? Except to elect one out of a few leaders, one of which is as bad as the others? We have what they call a "representative democracy". We chose who to represent us. America, you have TWO choices. How representative or democratic is that?

Anyway, sometimes I think we need to bring the ostracism back.

Life is a game played by gods who are bored and who fight over the rules.

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okayillgonow

okayillgonow

Never tolerate oppression...

I think Representative democracy is better because voted Representatives have experience in politics. I also like governments without democracy.

''From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need.'' (Karl Marx)

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