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Why Does God Allow Us to Suffer?

Are you hoping that our sufferings will end?

Yup! I'm hoping that these will end. :)
22 votes
I'm not sure, maybe... :\
9 votes
No!! There is no hope in this world!!! -_-
20 votes

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Quote by kawaiikiyomiwhoa... :sweat: lots and lots of arguments...
but anyhow, about the question, "Why does God allow us to suffer"
in my opinion, what is life if we do not experience pain and suffering? if life is all about happiness and no problems or issues causing suffering, wouldnt life be pointelss and boring? imagine a perfect world where there's no grief, worries, problems, peace in every nation etc. i wouldnt call this life...
i also believe that God allows us to suffer to teach us a lesson in life... does not matter if you are indirectly or directly affected

That's a total cop out. You're saying I can't enjoy my life of not getting stabbed unless I get stabbed every other day? You're saying I can't enjoy a good meal unless I know someone else is out there starving? Pfft...And they say the religious are the "moral" ones...Christ!

ko1

"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." - Denis Diderot

"I want it all and all at once" - Marquis de Sade

jasaiyajin

jasaiyajin

-repeat-

god wants you to feel everything, for that is knowledge

-repeat-

kawaiikiyomi

kawaiikiyomi

..*trust is for fools*..

Quote by Plunkies

Quote by kawaiikiyomiwhoa... :sweat: lots and lots of arguments...
but anyhow, about the question, "Why does God allow us to suffer"
in my opinion, what is life if we do not experience pain and suffering? if life is all about happiness and no problems or issues causing suffering, wouldnt life be pointelss and boring? imagine a perfect world where there's no grief, worries, problems, peace in every nation etc. i wouldnt call this life...
i also believe that God allows us to suffer to teach us a lesson in life... does not matter if you are indirectly or directly affected

That's a total cop out. You're saying I can't enjoy my life of not getting stabbed unless I get stabbed every other day? You're saying I can't enjoy a good meal unless I know someone else is out there starving? Pfft...And they say the religious are the "moral" ones...Christ!


what?! not to the extent that you get stabbed to death or when you cant enjoy a meal because someone else is out there starving. for goodness sake l ike i said, this is purely my opinion about life and suffering, that they link with one another... correct that what you said IS suffering but i did not imply that you can't enjoy life without suffering...i simply said that for ME, life would be pretty boring and pointless... i dont need to elaborate further cuz ive said enough...
and besides, its your own opinion

\"If you were\'nt afraid, you\'d be like Lorcan. He is\'nt afraid because he does\'nt love. To cause such pain you can\'t love or fear, but only crave\"

DarkIngram

DarkIngram

Urzu 7

Quote by Devildude and you are quoting from HIMSELF?
or are you simply assuming he got perfect justice underlined?
The fact is this, perfect justice would have existed within a reason that is possible and reasoning and brings benefits both sides without any problems, he caused a bigger problem than possibly imaginable with out of bounds side effects
So according to this: God Perfect Justice = Make Shit Happens So A Bible can Write About It.

No offense, a simple deduction reveals that this contradicts itself/


Well, you didn't understand what really happens right now.... be careful in what you're saying...

As I've mentioned in my thread, the world is under control of Satan... if you noticed our world, it has lots of sufferings... :(

Satan did not contest Jehovah's supremacy or his Creatorship. How could he, since he had been created by God? Satan did, however, challenge the way Jehovah was exercising his sovereignty. In the garden of Eden, Satan insinuated that God was depriving the first human couple of something to which they had a right and upon which their well-being depended. (Genesis 3:1-5) He succeeded in causing Adam and Eve to rebel against Jehovah's righteous sovereignty, bringing sin and death upon them and their descendants. (Genesis 3:6-19; Romans 5:12) Thus the Bible shows that Satan is the root cause of human suffering.

It is clear that evil forces are at work in the world today. The apostle John wrote: "The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one."--1 John 5:19.

Quote by Persocom01 The Bible is coherent in both the old and the new testament.

Finally, you've one correct answer here... :)

but...

Quote by Persocom01 "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return." - Genesis 3:19

Our bodies do return to the Earth. I don't see how this verse is applicable to what you are saying.

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." - Ecclesiastes 9:5

"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." - Ecclesiastes 9:10

Yes that there is nothing the dead can do with their own strength to affect the world of the living.

That brings me back to the point.

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:" - Mark 9:43

Apparently there's fire in hell.

"And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." Luke 12:4-5

Apparently there is a condition worse than mere 'death'. And that condition is death and going to hell.

And yes I do know that hell is for the sprit because the body returns to the Earth.

"In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return." (Genesis 3:19) Where was Adam before Jehovah created him from the dust? Why, he was nowhere! He simply did not exist. So when Jehovah God said that Adam would "return to the ground," he meant that Adam would die and return to the elements in the ground. Adam would not cross over to the spirit realm. At death Adam would once again be nonexistent. His punishment was death--absence of life--not a transfer to another realm.--Romans 6:23.

"The wages sin pays is death." (Romans 6:23)

Clearly, the dead do not exist. They cannot know anything. But how is it that the spirit "goes out" from a person at the time of his death?

The Bible states that when a person dies, "the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7) Does this mean that a spirit entity literally travels through space into God's presence? Not at all! The way in which the Bible uses the word "returns" does not require an actual movement from one place to another. For instance, unfaithful Israelites were told: "'Return to me, and I will return to you,' Jehovah of armies has said." (Malachi 3:7) Israel's 'returning' to Jehovah meant a turning around from a wrong course and again conforming to God's righteous way. And Jehovah's 'returning' to Israel meant his turning favorable attention to his people once again. In both cases the "return" involved an attitude, not a literal displacement from one geographic location to another...

Similarly, at death no actual movement from the earth to the heavenly realm occurs when the spirit "returns" to God. Once the life-force is gone from a person, only God has the ability to restore it to him. So the spirit "returns to the true God" in the sense that any hope of future life for that person now rests entirely with Jehovah God...

Consider, for example, what the Scriptures say about Jesus Christ's death. The Gospel writer Luke relates: "Jesus called with a loud voice and said: 'Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.' When he had said this, he expired." (Luke 23:46) As Jesus' spirit went out of him, he was not literally on his way to heaven. Jesus was not resurrected from the dead until the third day, and it was 40 days later that he ascended to heaven. (Acts 1:3, 9) At the time of his death, however, Jesus confidently left his spirit in his Father's hands, fully trusting in Jehovah's ability to bring him back to life... :D

The Bible refers to this animating force as "spirit." (James 2:26) That spirit can be compared to the electric current that activates a machine or an appliance and enables it to perform its function. Just as the current never takes on the features of the equipment it activates, the life-force does not take on any of the characteristics of the creatures it animates. It has no personality and no thinking ability...

Since the dead have no conscious existence, hell cannot be a fiery place of torment where the wicked suffer after death... ;)

Quote by ishimiNote that it only SYMBOLIZES..and to sybolize is not to understand it LITERALLY but it is in SPIRITUAL sense.

Yup! That's correct! :D

tobiast88

tobiast88

No patience for fools.

Quote by ishimiSome kind of COPY-PASTE..
Well, i have noticed that you are putting point for OLD TESTAMENT only, how bout the New Testament? Try to read the new testament and scan..relate it to the Old Testament so that you will not have questions that only you that bruises your head in questioning!
You will really UNDERSTAND the WHOLE Bible contents if you will read it from Genesis to Revelation. You are hungry in spiritual sense and the Bible will suffice and provide food for your hunger..
I admire your knowledge about the Bible but still you need an ACCURATE knowlegde, because obtaining accurate knowledge can 'lead you to Everlasting Life in Paradise on earth'..

My spirit is fine, thank you. I don't need your gory fairytale book as "spiritual food" because (are you taking this down once and for all?) I DO NOT BELIEVE IN YOUR IDIOCIES! For me, there is no " Everlasting Life in Paradise on earth" because I don't believe it exists. Period. An inconceivable time-period in an inconceivable place with an inconceivable being is - guess what? - inconceivable. I have read the Bible, it hasn't "fed me spiritually" because it is a moral guidebook-slash-fairytale someone cooked up in ancient times. And yes, it is copy-paste, because it is utterly moronic to type entire paragraphs while feverishly checking you havn't forgotten a single "holy word". I cannot believe that DarkIngram for example has entire portions of the Bible memorized, and cannot see the simple fact that Hell is in there to threaten non-believers with eternal torment. This isn't a question of "interpretation"! It says in black and white all the suffering that goes on, the hellfire, the torture, blablabla... in Hell. It's not a "spiritual graveyard"; it's there to say to atheists and non-believers "this is what will happen to you if you don't join us". Yet another inconceivable time-period in an inconceivable place with an inconceivable being, the whole concept being - again - inconceivable.

And Revelation - New Testament enough for you? - describes that all the non-believers won't go to Heaven after the Rapture and will be enslaved by Satan. Suffering? Naaahh... they're unbelievers, they deserve it! So don't tell me the Old Testament is more violent than the New, or more incoherent: Jesus Christ curses a fig tree in there.

"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis, Litterature Nobel Prize winner.
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So in other words, mankind must suffer because God is very, very insecure and needs to feel in charge of everything.

Basically, according to that spiel, he's a brutal dictator.

midsummer

midsummer

Arashic! <3

no i dont think god wants us to suffer...
life have it ups and downs...
so if you are at the down stage
just keep hanging on god's words...
it WILL go to the ups sooner or later..
and god is not cruel...
he will never let us suffer...
he will always be with us!

When looking at the primary part of the bible, it looks to me like this:
God created all and God is perfect. therefor his creation is perfect.
Elaborating further, we are perfect!
This is where I split with the bible, but really, isnt it a huge offence to say that God would even dare to create something imperfect (The bible also says that we are created as a reflection of God).
So if God did not wants us to suffer, we wouldn't.
Or to keep in line with the Bible: If God did not wants us to sin, he would not put that tree in Eden.

Plunkies saw this:

Quote by PlunkiesHe sets up a trap within the garden of eden to catch these two people in the act of eating the fruit that he knew they would eat, and then punishes them for not being created correctly. He punishes people for succumbing to the traps even though he knew the outcome before he even set it in motion.

There's only two conclusions you can come to from this.

1. God is an incompetant idiot. He not only fails but then blames his creations for failing and PUNISHES them for it so that he doesn't have to blame himself.

2. God loves to punish people and sets them up specifically to fail. He's the big kid with the magnifying glass burning ants.

But isn't there a third option?

3. Gods wants us to suffer. Because only when we know what sadness is, we can know what happyness is. This ability to suffer is the greatest gift given to us, because of it we can feel we are alive.

People say that we are punished for not obeying Gods laws, and that the ability to oppose those laws comes from our free will.
Then I ask: What is the meaning giving us of free will, and only allowing us to obey the will of God?
God has no laws. If God took so much painstaking effort in making laws for us (e.g. the ten commandments) would he just sit back and watch them being broken every second of the day?

The question "What is good and what is evil" has been discussed for a long time.
In ancient Greece there were 2 answers.
The Sofists told that good and bad was defined by the society people lived in. This is valid in every country nowadays.
But Socrates told that good and bad should be defined by the individual self. Only a person who lives towards his own thoughts can be truly happy.
Sure there are a lot of people doing things against their own morale, but does it make them happy?


gel-chan

gel-chan

Pastaaaa <3

He allows us to suffer because maybe we have done wrong. Or this state is a challenge that we must overcome and at the end we will experience pleasure and blessings from Him. But it depends on how you overcame it, if you did it on bad way well be ready for pleasure alright, but not too soon you'll have a heap of problems... Making you more miserable. If you do it on a righteous path, be ready for constant blessings. But of course no blessing lasts forever. The only blessing that does is found in eternal life in heaven...

I hope I have answered the question elaborately... :D

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I am inspired by many of your posts.

God's plan for us was never for us to suffer. He created us sinless. We are suffering as a consequence for OUR sins. Hey hey just before you blame Adam and Eve for sinning "first", take a look at yourself. If you still think you are more capable than them and that sin is their fault, then why is it that you continue to sin today? All of us sin. I am no exception.

You may ask, why did God let sin continue? Well, we have freedom of choice. We chose to sin. If he exterminated sin, we might as well be robots. God isn't a dicator God. He didn't do that.

Suffering builds us. Without suffering, we will never understand how to cherish people and things around us. Without suffering, we will never treasure happiness. Without suffering, we would take life for granted. Trials either make us or break us. Each trial is a test of faith from God. YOU choose to pass it or fail it. If you trust God and put your faith in him, God will give you the strength to overcome your suffering. "The Lord is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and He knoweth them that trust in him." Nahum 1:7

There may be those that argue such things as "you cant enjoy a meal because someone else is out there starving". When you empathize with starving people out there, the MORE you will enjoy your meal. People often ask why we only cherish people or things when they're gone. Sometimes we stubborn humans need a push factor to help us wake up.

But that's not the main purpose of suffering. As mentioned earlier, suffering builds our character. You may have all the riches in the world, but without character, you are nothing. For Christians, character is the only thing we bring to heaven with us. Not our wealth, not our possessions.

For those debating about Hell, maybe these Bible verses may help to enlighten you a bit.

"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and They will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:40-43. God sends ALL WHO DO EVIL into the fire. You won't want any evil in heaven, would you?

Hell is not present now. Hell will be made AT THE END OF THE AGE. There is nobody burning in hell now. The dead are sleeping. If some of the dead were in heaven and some in hell now, then wouldn't be the second coming of Christ be contradicting? "...for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out - those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned." John 6:28. If people were already in heaven/hell, where would we "rise" to?

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23. Yes, WE sinners are supposed to die. But because Jesus died for us, we have eternal life.

"A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found." Psalms 37:10. HELL IS NOT BURNING FOREVER. God will not let the evil burn and burn and burn forever and ever. They will perish in "a little while".

My apologies if I have repeated some of the things that you guys have said earlier on, I have glanced through all of your posts but I could not scrutinize all of them.

i agree with tobiast88 i don't think there is a god and if ther is why can't he soften are pains to wear we still larn are lesons? easy anwer no god i dont know how we cam to be and i realy don't care we are here and thats that i personaly don't have any religon and it some what makes life easer and another thing some pepole are using religon to make money for instance some cherhes(i know thats not how u spell it!) take the donations and use it for there own gain i mean realy next time you go to a cherh ask the preist if he has any other job now ther are some good cherhes but for yhe most part ther all just scams to get your money but hey who am i to tell you what to bealen in i not i'm just telling you what i beleav in.

merged: 05-30-2006 ~ 09:38pm
i agree with tobiast88 i don't think there is a god and if ther is why can't he soften are pains to wear we still larn are lesons? easy anwer no god i dont know how we cam to be and i realy don't care we are here and thats that i personaly don't have any religon and it some what makes life easer and another thing some pepole are using religon to make money for instance some cherhes(i know thats not how u spell it!) take the donations and use it for there own gain i mean realy next time you go to a cherh ask the preist if he has any other job now ther are some good cherhes but for yhe most part ther all just scams to get your money but hey who am i to tell you what to bealen in i not i'm just telling you what i beleav in.

Persocom01

Persocom01

Seeker of the Truth

Quote by DarkIngramThe Bible states that when a person dies, "the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7) Does this mean that a spirit entity literally travels through space into God's presence? Not at all! The way in which the Bible uses the word "returns" does not require an actual movement from one place to another. For instance, unfaithful Israelites were told: "'Return to me, and I will return to you,' Jehovah of armies has said." (Malachi 3:7) Israel's 'returning' to Jehovah meant a turning around from a wrong course and again conforming to God's righteous way. And Jehovah's 'returning' to Israel meant his turning favorable attention to his people once again. In both cases the "return" involved an attitude, not a literal displacement from one geographic location to another...

Similarly, at death no actual movement from the earth to the heavenly realm occurs when the spirit "returns" to God. Once the life-force is gone from a person, only God has the ability to restore it to him. So the spirit "returns to the true God" in the sense that any hope of future life for that person now rests entirely with Jehovah God...

Consider, for example, what the Scriptures say about Jesus Christ's death. The Gospel writer Luke relates: "Jesus called with a loud voice and said: 'Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.' When he had said this, he expired." (Luke 23:46) As Jesus' spirit went out of him, he was not literally on his way to heaven. Jesus was not resurrected from the dead until the third day, and it was 40 days later that he ascended to heaven. (Acts 1:3, 9) At the time of his death, however, Jesus confidently left his spirit in his Father's hands, fully trusting in Jehovah's ability to bring him back to life... :D

The Bible refers to this animating force as "spirit." (James 2:26) That spirit can be compared to the electric current that activates a machine or an appliance and enables it to perform its function. Just as the current never takes on the features of the equipment it activates, the life-force does not take on any of the characteristics of the creatures it animates. It has no personality and no thinking ability...

Since the dead have no conscious existence, hell cannot be a fiery place of torment where the wicked suffer after death... ;)

Yup! That's correct! :D

It seems to me that you're arguing that what the Bible says doesn't actually happen. Instead, if we do without the long and questionable explanation that the spirit is an "animating force" we have,

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." - Ecclesiastes 12:7

That there is a spirit and a body that are both separate entities.

We also know that the Bible is completely coherent and that everything it says is true. Therefore:

"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return." - Genesis 3:19

"return unto the ground" must then refer to the body as written in Ecclesiastes 12:7. Much simpler isn't it?

And the following are also true:

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:" - Mark 9:43

Apparently there's fire in hell, and it will never go out.

"And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." Luke 12:4-5

Apparently there is a condition worse than mere 'death'. And that condition is death and going to hell.

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." - Revelations 20:10

And there is such a thing as eternal torment.

Quote by DarkIngramFinally, you've one correct answer here... :)

but...

And lastly... I am a Christian of the Methodist denomination, and I recognise that even among our brothers and sisters there are disagreements on scripture, how much more true that would be between me, and you, a Jehovah's witness. Why else would there be different denominations of Christians?

Understanding this, I warn you not to be dogmatic about your own interpretations. Do you really understand everything written in the Bible so perfectly as to declare others 'correct' or 'wrong' for that matter?

Quote by rufflesiaHell is not present now. Hell will be made AT THE END OF THE AGE. There is nobody burning in hell now. The dead are sleeping. If some of the dead were in heaven and some in hell now, then wouldn't be the second coming of Christ be contradicting? "...for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out - those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned." John 6:28. If people were already in heaven/hell, where would we "rise" to?

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." - Revelations 20:13-15

From these verses we can see that hell does exist BEFORE THE END OF AGE. (forgive me for shouting but it's to mirror your emphasis) How then do we "rise" you ask? From my understanding... we must look at the ressurection of Jesus.

1. His spirit returned to God after his bodily death.
2. His spirit was reunited with his body on the 3rd day.
(If anyone wants an explanation on these 2 deductions, ask)

So... the spirit goes to heaven or hell, and the body stays on earth. In the verses of Revelations 20:13-15, the body is the one that is ressurected. That explains how we are able to "rise" even after death.

Quote by rufflesia"A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found." Psalms 37:10. HELL IS NOT BURNING FOREVER. God will not let the evil burn and burn and burn forever and ever. They will perish in "a little while".

"For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked [shall] not [be]: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it [shall] not [be]. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace." - Psalms 37:9-11

If you look at this verse in it's context, you can see that it's context is earth. So "For yet a little while, and the wicked [shall] not [be]: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it [shall] not [be]." refers to the wicked on earth.

DarkIngram

DarkIngram

Urzu 7

Quote by tobiast88I cannot believe that DarkIngram for example has entire portions of the Bible memorized,

I have references, my bible, JW official website and other books in Jehovah's Witnesess... :) we're using those materials for preaching...

mybe cuz god is sadistic and cruel? or maybe god doesnt give a s**t

DarkIngram

DarkIngram

Urzu 7

Sufferings is not God's fault. "With evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone." (James 1:13) If one of his worshipers gets sick, Jehovah God sustains him spiritually. "Jehovah himself will sustain him upon a divan of illness; all his bed you will certainly change during his sickness." (Psalm 41:3) Yes, God has compassion. He wants to help us, not hurt us... :)

Quote by rufflesia God's plan for us was never for us to suffer. He created us sinless. We are suffering as a consequence for OUR sins. Hey hey just before you blame Adam and Eve for sinning "first", take a look at yourself. If you still think you are more capable than them and that sin is their fault, then why is it that you continue to sin today? All of us sin. I am no exception.

Yup, all of us are sinners because we inherit sins from our first parents, Adam & Eve...

Quote by Persocom01 It seems to me that you're arguing that what the Bible says doesn't actually happen. Instead, if we do without the long and questionable explanation that the spirit is an "animating force" we have,

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." - Ecclesiastes 12:7

That there is a spirit and a body that are both separate entities.

We also know that the Bible is completely coherent and that everything it says is true. Therefore:

"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return." - Genesis 3:19

"return unto the ground" must then refer to the body as written in Ecclesiastes 12:7. Much simpler isn't it?

And the following are also true:

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:" - Mark 9:43

Apparently there's fire in hell, and it will never go out.

"And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." Luke 12:4-5

Apparently there is a condition worse than mere 'death'. And that condition is death and going to hell.

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." - Revelations 20:10

And there is such a thing as eternal torment.

In order to be tormented, a person has to be conscious. Are the dead conscious? Once again, the Bible gives the answer:

"The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

It is impossible for the dead, who are "conscious of nothing at all," to experience agony anywhere...

Persocom01

Persocom01

Seeker of the Truth

Quote by DarkIngramIn order to be tormented, a person has to be conscious. Are the dead conscious? Once again, the Bible gives the answer:

"The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

It is impossible for the dead, who are "conscious of nothing at all," to experience agony anywhere...

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." - Ecclesiastes 9:5.

I believe in the separation of the body and spirit upon death. Thus from my understanding of this verse, as far as the bodily senses are concerned, the dead know nothing upon death.

So yes, I believe that a dead body isn't conscious.(no zombies) And that this verse does not refer to the spirit of the dead person, which, I believe, is conscious.

For another perspective on the topic "Why does God allow Us to Suffer?":

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t023.html

DarkIngram

DarkIngram

Urzu 7

Quote by Plunkies"To trust the God of the Bible is to trust an irascible, vindictive, fierce and ever fickle and changeful master."
- Mark Twain

"I see only with deep regret that God punishes so many of His children for their numerous stupidities, for which only He Himself can be held responsible; in my opinion, only His nonexistence could excuse Him."
- Albert Einstein

The murderer may exist but his act of murdering has disproven him as a decent human being. So if you could ever prove god to exist, he would be scum.

"Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world."--1 John 4:1


"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry YOU off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ" --Colossians 2:8


"those bringing a man into sin by [his] word, and those who lay bait even for the one reproving in the gate, and those who push aside the righteous one with empty arguments."--Isaiah 29:21


"He that is causing the upright ones to go astray into the bad way will himself fall into his own pit, but the faultless ones themselves will come into possession of good."--Proverbs 28:10

ishimi

ishimi

Mouichido kimi ni Itai!

And for Darkingram..haha..
:D He's getting better! :) Well, the verses that he had put and shared comes from the Bible and Bible-based literature.
Rai,humahanga talaga sila sau.. :D ang galing mo.. XD
Nice start my dear!*taps back* *hugs* XD

merged: 06-03-2006 ~ 01:16pm

Quote by DarkIngram

Quote by Plunkies"To trust the God of the Bible is to trust an irascible, vindictive, fierce and ever fickle and changeful master."
- Mark Twain

"I see only with deep regret that God punishes so many of His children for their numerous stupidities, for which only He Himself can be held responsible; in my opinion, only His nonexistence could excuse Him."
- Albert Einstein

The murderer may exist but his act of murdering has disproven him as a decent human being. So if you could ever prove god to exist, he would be scum.

"Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world."--1 John 4:1


"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry YOU off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ" --Colossians 2:8


"those bringing a man into sin by [his] word, and those who lay bait even for the one reproving in the gate, and those who push aside the righteous one with empty arguments."--Isaiah 29:21


"He that is causing the upright ones to go astray into the bad way will himself fall into his own pit, but the faultless ones themselves will come into possession of good."--Proverbs 28:10

I'm speechless..
But well, its nice to know that you are really excelling!
Nice APPLICATION! i really appreciate it a lot as well as Jehovah God! :)

"Do not become wise in your own eyes"

Sallyf322

Sallyf322

*_Amateur Guitarist_*

I usually steer clear of religion (at least if I can) since there are people so very into it...

Since this is my opinion---the question about why God allows us to suffer is probably one of the things that make me doubt such a being. Every day, someone is dying. As I walk home from school, I sometimes wonder how I can be enjoying a nice day of sunshine when no doubt, some old man is dying at a hospital that same moment and a woman is probably being raped in her dark room apartment somewhere. Terrible things happen in this world, people suffer and some are luckier than others. Life is just unfair that way, and I wonder why...I don't think its wrong for people to ponder why God allows us to suffer---it's only human nature. They can try to accept it, make excuses for the reason or be ignorant and push it aside. The result is still the same---we're suffering.

"If everyone cared and nobody cried, if everyone loved and nobody lied, if everyone shared and swallowed their pride, then we'd see the day...when nobody died. I'm singing amen I, amen I, I'm alive." - Nickelback: "If Everyone Cared."

If only, if only, the world were like this. If only, if only, it only existed.

Persocom01

Persocom01

Seeker of the Truth

Quote by ishimi

Quote by tobiast88My spirit is fine, thank you. I don't need your gory fairytale book as "spiritual food" because (are you taking this down once and for all?) I DO NOT BELIEVE IN YOUR IDIOCIES! For me, there is no " Everlasting Life in Paradise on earth" because I don't believe it exists. Period. An inconceivable time-period in an inconceivable place with an inconceivable being is - guess what? - inconceivable. I have read the Bible, it hasn't "fed me spiritually" because it is a moral guidebook-slash-fairytale someone cooked up in ancient times. And yes, it is copy-paste, because it is utterly moronic to type entire paragraphs while feverishly checking you havn't forgotten a single "holy word". I cannot believe that DarkIngram for example has entire portions of the Bible memorized, and cannot see the simple fact that Hell is in there to threaten non-believers with eternal torment. This isn't a question of "interpretation"! It says in black and white all the suffering that goes on, the hellfire, the , blablabla... in Hell. It's not a "spiritual graveyard"; it's there to say to atheists and non-believers "this is what will happen to you if you don't join us". Yet another inconceivable time-period in an inconceivable place with an inconceivable being, the whole concept being - again - inconceivable.

And Revelation - New Testament enough for you? - describes that all the non-believers won't go to Heaven after the Rapture and will be enslaved by Satan. Suffering? Naaahh... they're unbelievers, they deserve it! So don't tell me the Old Testament is more violent than the New, or more incoherent: Jesus Christ curses a fig tree in there.

I cannot argue with your own opinion, if you don't believe well fine! This forum is for all of us, to share different opinions and to stand up to what is RIGHT. You're a Christian Methodist arent you? THe word "CHRISTIAN" only implies that you believe in CHRIST,ACCEPTED CHRIST as your Messiah and FOLLOW CHRIST'S footsteps..so why does your church aren't convinced of the Bible? If you have your title as Christian then you must always be convinced that the Bible is God's Word and your teachings must be FULLY-BASED from the Bible.
And as what you've said that the Bible didn't suffice your spiritual want because you are spiritually fine then why arent you convice?
Tobiast88 my friend, you cannot deny that you are hungry in spiritual sense. You aren't earning spiritual benefits because you have spiritual doubts in your mind.
Try to be realistic,open your mind,eat your pride because that will let you fall into destruction when the day of the Lord will arrives.

I believe you're mistaking me for someone else here... I am the Methodist Christian and not tobiast88. And in my posts I have affirmed my faith that the Bible is the word of God, and I have provided my interpretations of Bible verses with referance to the actual text in the Bible.

Having said that... you aren't making any sense in your post since you already have your facts wrong.

Read the author of the various posts a little more carefully next time.

Devildude

Devildude

- Alstroemeria Records -

you know, rather than asking for God's forgiveness and all that, I rather ask that the world government actually team up for once and for all and make a small difference, seriously that is better that looking up a figure and a huge cross hoping that some deliverance may come, human efforts = effects now, right here and right now, not wait for it.

I would like to see believers actually convincing a force of the government or many of them, to actually take that step with your bibles and great rewards promised, seriously, if it works, I might consider believing.

Click signature for my blog
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The wind of destiny blows, and the descendant shall walk the earth once more...

ibrahimm

ibrahimm

Kick Ass And Chew Bubblegum

Why does god allow us to suffer?... lol, if god would help with everything in ur life... would it mean something to u... u dont have to do anything, couse god always helps u... u dont control ur own life then..

When u are in deep shit, the main thing is to hang on and show god what u are made of.. that u can bare it and that u will fight... if u just give up and cry or what ever... that show's us what u can do

Orokawa Ototoyo........

ishimi

ishimi

Mouichido kimi ni Itai!

Quote by Persocom01 And lastly... I am a Christian of the Methodist denomination, and I recognise that even among our brothers and sisters there are disagreements on scripture, how much more true that would be between me, and you, a Jehovah's witness. Why else would there be different denominations of Christians?

Understanding this, I warn you not to be dogmatic about your own interpretations. Do you really understand everything written in the Bible so perfectly as to declare others 'correct' or 'wrong' for that matter?

I cannot argue with your own opinion, if you don't believe well fine! This forum is for all of us, to share different opinions and to stand up to what is RIGHT. You're a Christian Methodist arent you? THe word "CHRISTIAN" only implies that you believe in CHRIST,ACCEPTED CHRIST as your Messiah and FOLLOW CHRIST'S footsteps..so why does your church aren't convinced of the Bible? If you have your title as Christian then you must always be convinced that the Bible is God's Word and your teachings must be FULLY-BASED from the Bible.
And as what you've said that the Bible didn't suffice your spiritual want because you are spiritually fine then why arent you convice?
Tobiast88 my friend, you cannot deny that you are hungry in spiritual sense. You aren't earning spiritual benefits because you have spiritual doubts in your mind.
Try to be realistic,open your mind,eat your pride because that will let you fall into destruction when the day of the Lord will arrives.

I appreciate your reasons on the other way behind...

Instead of arguements lets just help each other and learn more about the Holy Scriptures.

"Do not become wise in your own eyes"

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