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How We Can Know There Is a God?

Do you Believe in the Existence of God?

I Believe that God exist by His Creations & the Bible
66 votes
I believe that God exist but I don't believe in the Bible
26 votes
I don't Believe in God because I'm an Atheist
46 votes
50/50 (I believe in God but I doubt sometimes)
32 votes

Only members can vote.

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DarkIngram

DarkIngram

Urzu 7

Quote by PlunkiesWhy? Why YOUR god? Where do you get the Christian god from all of this? How do you go from "World is complicated" to "Jesus"? Why not Zeus? Allah? Thor? Ra? Santa? Why not a thousand gods? Maybe I think the world is too complicated for only 1 god, so it must have been millions of gods working for millions of days to make the universe! You're skipping an entire step! What the hell points to YOUR god in particular? A watch isn't made by a single person. Many people go into creating watches...designers, engineers, inventors, factory workers. Maybe there's a seperate god for every part of the thought process that goes into creating everything that exists?

Jesus himself referred to his Father as "the only true God." (John 17:3) Jehovah himself said: "Besides me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6) The apostle Paul wrote that, to true Christians, "there is . . . one God the Father." (1 Corinthians 8:5, 6) So Jehovah is unique; no one else shares his position. Jehovah stands in utter contrast to all such objects of worship as idols, deified humans, and Satan. All these are false gods... (false gods: Zeus, Allah, Thor, Ra, Santa & others...)

Jesus is spoken of in the Scriptures as "a god," even as "Mighty God." (John 1:1; Isaiah. 9:6) But nowhere is he spoken of as being Almighty, as Jehovah is. (Genesis 17:1) Jesus is said to be "the reflection of [God's] glory," but the Father is the Source of that glory. (Hebrews 1:3) Jesus in no way seeks the position of his Father. He said: "It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service." (Luke 4:8) He exists "in God's form," and the Father has commanded that "in the name of Jesus every knee should bend," but this is all done "to the glory of God the Father."--Philippians 2:5-11

Quote by Plunkies You know why you're trying to trick people away from science with your faulty logic? Because science is actually a threat. Science is real and it can make your all mighty god disapear in a puff of logic. Why aren't you arguing against Islam? Why not Hindus? Why not Judaism? Why not the Matrix? Why aren't you arguing that we're not all figments of Suzumiya Haruhi's imagination? I'll tell you why, because they're all on the same level of fiction as your religion. Science scares you so you lash out against it and try to drive people away from it.

Unfortunately science will always get stronger. Your religion is no better than the thousands of dead religions over the centuries of human civilization. You can try to keep people ignorant forever but it will only slow the inevitable. Sorry.

That view is quite common nowadays. And there is a reason for it. We live in a society that emphasizes material possessions. But you are a person who likes to be realistic, aren't you?

Are there some things that we cannot see with our eyes but that we believe exist because there are sound reasons to do so? What about the air we breathe? We may feel it when there is a breeze. We can tell that it fills our lungs, even though we do not see it. Because we see the effects, there is good reason to believe in it, isn't that so? And we cannot see gravity. But when we drop something we see evidence that gravity is at work. Nor do we see odors, but our nose picks them up. We cannot see sound waves, but our ears detect them. So we believe in things we cannot see--provided there is good reason to do so, isn't that right?

"No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him."--John 1:18

"God is a Spirit"--John 4:24

True, you cannot see God because he is an invisible spirit....

Another thorny question that evolutionists have failed to answer is: What was the origin of life? How did the first simple form of life--from which we are all supposed to have descended--come into existence? Centuries ago, this would not have appeared to be a problem. Most people then thought that flies could develop from decaying meat and that a pile of old rags could spontaneously produce mice. But, more than a hundred years ago, the French chemist Louis Pasteur clearly demonstrated that life can come only from preexisting life...

So how do evolutionists explain the source of life? According to the most popular theory, a chance combination of chemicals and energy sparked a spontaneous generation of life millions of years ago. What about the principle that Pasteur proved? The World Book Encyclopedia explains: "Pasteur showed that life cannot arise spontaneously under the chemical and physical conditions present on the earth today. Billions of years ago, however, the chemical and physical conditions on the earth were far different"!

Even under far different conditions, though, there is a huge gap between nonliving matter and the simplest living thing. Michael Denton, in his book Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, says: "Between a living cell and the most highly ordered non-biological system, such as a crystal or a snowflake, there is a chasm as vast and absolute as it is possible to conceive." The idea that nonliving material could come to life by some haphazard chance is so remote as to be impossible. The Bible's explanation, that 'life came from life' in that life was created by God, is convincingly in harmony with the facts...

"Many scientists succumb to the temptation to be dogmatic, . . . over and over again the question of the origin of the species has been presented as if it were finally settled. Nothing could be further from the truth. . . . But the tendency to be dogmatic persists, and it does no service to the cause of science." - The Guardian, London, England, December 4, 1980, p. 15

Quote by tobiast88 I do use my common sense, and I do think for myself. The metaphor I gave happens to frame my thoughts quite nicely, so I expressed it. You don't think for yourself, because a book written two thousand years ago dictates your life. So I repeat to you the advice you gave me: use your own common sense, and think for yourself, instead of relying on some old book for reasons to persecute other's perceived faults.

The reasons why Christians (like me) use the bible, because the Bible is a "Word of God".... The bible is the most reliable book compare to others...

"Let God be found true, though every man be found a liar."--Romans 3:4

In every words of God, you can't find any lie...

It is of vital importance for me that my beliefs be based on the Bible and not on mere human speculations...

Quote by xandman blablablablabla! Booooooring! So much bullshit in this thread it makes my eyes go sore. But still...

people have been asking that question over and over for 2006 years now, and if they didn't get an answer then, what makes you think we'll get an answer now? Especially on a sub-site like Minitokyo. Also, God is Dog backwards, says pretty much, heh

"Do not answer anyone stupid according to his foolishness, that you yourself also may not become equal to him. Answer someone stupid according to his foolishness, that he may not become someone wise in his own eyes."--Proverbs 26:4-5

"The senseless one has said in his heart: "There is no Jehovah." They have acted ruinously and have acted detestably in unrighteousness;
There is no one doing good."--Psalm 53:1

-_- xandman, post your constructive replies... if you don't believe in God, prove your beliefs...

Quote by ajb btw, we cant really kno there is a god....
all we can do is believe
i mean, isnt that the point of the supernatural?
that it cant be explained or proved?
therefore, u cant really kno it exists?

By reading the Bible, you'll know that God really exist... :)

"For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world's creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable; because, although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God nor did they thank him, but they became empty-headed in their reasonings and their unintelligent heart became darkened."--Romans 1:20-21

Yu-huang

Yu-huang

The Jade Emperor

I won't lie and said I read the Bible.
But I did quite a bit of reading and to tell you the truth by reading what I did, it didn't make me know he existed. (Not saying he doesn't exist)

When Darkness Falls, All is quiet in the Mist of the Night.

DarkIngram

DarkIngram

Urzu 7

Quote by Yu-huangHow We Can Know There Is a God? Simple answer, we don't.
Do you Believe in the Existence of God? Depends on what god you speak of.

The Bible does give us many details about God as a Person, about his qualities and about how he deals with mankind... :)

But it also explains that his wisdom and intelligence are beyond human understanding. Thus, the prophet Isaiah says that God's ways and thoughts are much higher than those of man.

"For the thoughts of you people are not my thoughts, nor are my ways your ways," is the utterance of Jehovah. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."--Isaiah 55:8-9

NoirTsubasa

Nikkei

In the words of Seth McFarlen, "If you tell me God exists because of a baby's smile, I'm going to kick you in the stomach."

Ore no soba ni ite kure, doko ni mo ikuna.

elfwithstick

elfwithstick

im not on much...

here is my usual argument for these threads.

to "know" there is a god is to have undeniable proof of one.
now, proof denies faith.
without faith, "god" is nothing.
therefore, if we know there is a god, then there most definitely is not.

this is why most people stay far away from these topics.

-you can always judge a society by the behavior of it's prisioners
(\\_/)
(O.o)
(^ ^) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.

Quote by DarkIngramJesus himself referred to his Father as "the only true God." (John 17:3) Jehovah himself said: "Besides me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6) The apostle Paul wrote that, to true Christians, "there is . . . one God the Father." (1 Corinthians 8:5, 6) So Jehovah is unique; no one else shares his position. Jehovah stands in utter contrast to all such objects of worship as idols, deified humans, and Satan. All these are false gods... (false gods: Zeus, Allah, Thor, Ra, Santa & others...)

Jesus is spoken of in the Scriptures as "a god," even as "Mighty God." (John 1:1; Isaiah. 9:6) But nowhere is he spoken of as being Almighty, as Jehovah is. (Genesis 17:1) Jesus is said to be "the reflection of [God's] glory," but the Father is the Source of that glory. (Hebrews 1:3) Jesus in no way seeks the position of his Father. He said: "It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service." (Luke 4:8) He exists "in God's form," and the Father has commanded that "in the name of Jesus every knee should bend," but this is all done "to the glory of God the Father."--Philippians 2:5-11

EVERY RELIGION BACKS UP THEIR OWN GOD. You're still skipping an entire step. There's no proof that points to your god. One religious scripture points to one god, another to another, and so on. Why is yours right? Yes I know the drill....the bible is true because it's the word of god, and it's the word of god because the bible says it's the word of god, etc etc blah blah blah. It sounds idiotic to anyone who doesn't share your beliefs. Even those who do share your beliefs can still at least see that it's circular logic. You can't use god to prove the bible and use the bible to prove god at the same time.

Quote: That view is quite common nowadays. And there is a reason for it. We live in a society that emphasizes material possessions. But you are a person who likes to be realistic, aren't you?

Oh give me a break. I need evidence to believe in something so I'm a greedy, immoral heathen huh? There's no connection in that either. Why does relying on science and reality to explain the world make me materialistic?

Your god is supposedly the creator of the universe with all sorts of neat powers yet he's so terrible with money. Every five minutes you're passing around a collection plate to collect more money for god and god's shiny new things. Your religion takes in billions of dollars a year without paying any taxes on it and still they need more and more money. Who's materialistic now?

Quote: Are there some things that we cannot see with our eyes but that we believe exist because there are sound reasons to do so? What about the air we breathe? We may feel it when there is a breeze. We can tell that it fills our lungs, even though we do not see it. Because we see the effects, there is good reason to believe in it, isn't that so? And we cannot see gravity. But when we drop something we see evidence that gravity is at work. Nor do we see odors, but our nose picks them up. We cannot see sound waves, but our ears detect them. So we believe in things we cannot see--provided there is good reason to do so, isn't that right?

What? You're comparing air, gravity, and odors to god? You know what the difference is? The massive freakin obvious gigantic blatant difference in these things? Did you guess it yet? I'll give you a hint....It starts with an E and rhymes with smevidence. That's right! Evidence! I'm not floating around like a balloon so gravity must be hard at work, and when I wag my hand back and forth that's air I'm feeling (plus I'm alive), and odors....well odors I can smell. Can you smell your god? Did your god fart? If not then he's still not on the same level as these REAL things. Hell you can even see air, ever gone outside on a cold day? Yeah...

Quote: "No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him."--John 1:18

"God is a Spirit"--John 4:24

True, you cannot see God because he is an invisible spirit....

Ohhhh god is a spirit! Well that explains EVERYTHING! Now I get it. *sigh*

Quote: Another thorny question that evolutionists have failed to answer is: What was the origin of life? How did the first simple form of life--from which we are all supposed to have descended--come into existence? Centuries ago, this would not have appeared to be a problem. Most people then thought that flies could develop from decaying meat and that a pile of old rags could spontaneously produce mice. But, more than a hundred years ago, the French chemist Louis Pasteur clearly demonstrated that life can come only from preexisting life...

No. Louis Pasteur demonstrated "that life does not currently spontaneously arise in complex form from nonlife in nature; he did not demonstrate the impossibility of life arising in simple form from nonlife by way of a long and propitious series of chemical steps/selections. In particular, they did not show that life cannot arise once, and then evolve. Neither Pasteur, nor any other post-Darwin researcher in this field, denied the age of the earth or the fact of evolution."

Quote: So how do evolutionists explain the source of life? According to the most popular theory, a chance combination of chemicals and energy sparked a spontaneous generation of life millions of years ago. What about the principle that Pasteur proved? The World Book Encyclopedia explains: "Pasteur showed that life cannot arise spontaneously under the chemical and physical conditions present on the earth today. Billions of years ago, however, the chemical and physical conditions on the earth were far different"!

Even under far different conditions, though, there is a huge gap between nonliving matter and the simplest living thing. Michael Denton, in his book Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, says: "Between a living cell and the most highly ordered non-biological system, such as a crystal or a snowflake, there is a chasm as vast and absolute as it is possible to conceive." The idea that nonliving material could come to life by some haphazard chance is so remote as to be impossible. The Bible's explanation, that 'life came from life' in that life was created by God, is convincingly in harmony with the facts...

Are you insane? You just stated that abiogenesis is impossible? How exactly did you come to this staggering conclusion before all of the scientists on the entire planet? Those kooky scientists seem to be under the impression that studying abiogenesis isn't futile at all, but I guess they haven't spoken with you yet huh?

Anyway you might come back at me with some ridiculous "facts" about the probability of abiogenesis so I'll just crush those before they're posted with this link here.

Quote: The reasons why Christians (like me) use the bible, because the Bible is a "Word of God".... The bible is the most reliable book compare to others...

Why? You have no proof to back up these claims. It's strange because I've found ANY fictional book in existence seems to be equally as reliable as the bible.

Quote: It is of vital importance for me that my beliefs be based on the Bible and not on mere human speculations...

You realize the bible was written by humans right? There's even the names of authors on it. John, Paul....those other guys....that one guy with the hat....anyway they're all people. I'm surprised you haven't noticed being so religious and all...

RubyDrg0n

Wanna-be-Drg0n

Oh sweet... love your posts plunkies

Wanna add something. Be sure to note the parody that God do not a have creator despite the fact that "all matter have to be created" stated by DarkIngram.

Another parody:

Quote by DarkIngram
Quote by Yu-huang
How We Can Know There Is a God? Simple answer, we don't.
Do you Believe in the Existence of God? Depends on what god you speak of.

The Bible does give us many details about God as a Person, about his qualities and about how he deals with mankind...

But it also explains that his wisdom and intelligence are beyond human understanding. Thus, the prophet Isaiah says that God's ways and thoughts are much higher than those of man.

"For the thoughts of you people are not my thoughts, nor are my ways your ways," is the utterance of Jehovah. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."--Isaiah 55:8-9

So DarkIngram with your quote of Jehovah, I assume that you think that we cant understand nor know God because God is higher and above us. And yet, you say that the bible gives enough information to tell us about God as a person and how God deals with people. Are you assuming you know God? and why use "he" when you refer to God? (So God is a guy eh?) But I thought you think that "he" is different from us and much more advance with all those quotes you gave us....

Does that make you the same level as "he" is? Or are you assuming that you know more about "him" and gain superiority about it?

*sigh*
Questions:
1. Is it that people believe because they want to believe or is it because they are forced to believe as it is true?

2. Did you believe to gain superiority over others?

3. Did you love God because it represent someone you would want to be like?

4. Did you love God because of promised to Heaven?

5. Did you believe God because of fear of going to Hell?

6. Define Love for God not through the bible but as in how you would Love God.

7. Would you love God so much and go to Hell forever just for God if requested?

*sigh*
couldn't believe another questionaire came out.....

DarkIngram

DarkIngram

Urzu 7

Quote by Plunkies EVERY RELIGION BACKS UP THEIR OWN GOD. You're still skipping an entire step. There's no proof that points to your god. One religious scripture points to one god, another to another, and so on. Why is yours right? Yes I know the drill....the bible is true because it's the word of god, and it's the word of god because the bible says it's the word of god, etc etc blah blah blah. It sounds idiotic to anyone who doesn't share your beliefs. Even those who do share your beliefs can still at least see that it's circular logic. You can't use god to prove the bible and use the bible to prove god at the same time.

Try to use your eyes, ears & heart... :)

Have you met alots of religious people who claims that they're religion & god is the "true one"?

Jesus said that the true religion would be evident in the lives of the people who practice it. "By their fruits you will recognize them," he said. "Every good tree produces fine fruit." (Matthew 7:16-17) In other words, those who practice the true religion would be recognized by their beliefs and their conduct. Although they are not perfect and they make mistakes, true worshippers as a group seek to do God's will...

* God's servants base their teachings on the Bible
* Those who practice the true religion worship only Jehovah and make His name known
* God's people show genuine, unselfish love for one another
* True Christians accept Jesus Christ as God's means of salvation
* True worshippers are no part of the world
* Jesus' true followers preach that God's Kingdom is mankind's only hope

Quote by Plunkies Oh give me a break. I need evidence to believe in something so I'm a greedy, immoral heathen huh? There's no connection in that either. Why does relying on science and reality to explain the world make me materialistic?

Your god is supposedly the creator of the universe with all sorts of neat powers yet he's so terrible with money. Every five minutes you're passing around a collection plate to collect more money for god and god's shiny new things. Your religion takes in billions of dollars a year without paying any taxes on it and still they need more and more money. Who's materialistic now?

I've said that because you only believe in the things that our eyes can see... Most of you denies in the existence of God because you haven't saw Him.... God is a Spirit...

About you've said, we pay taxes to the government... as an individual taxpayers... We use the money for preaching work.... :)

Quote by Plunkies Why? You have no proof to back up these claims. It's strange because I've found ANY fictional book in existence seems to be equally as reliable as the bible.

Quote by Plunkies You realize the bible was written by humans right? There's even the names of authors on it. John, Paul....those other guys....that one guy with the hat....anyway they're all people. I'm surprised you haven't noticed being so religious and all...

3 proofs that the Bible is God's Word: (1) It is scientifically accurate, (2) it contains timeless principles that are practical for modern living, and (3) it contains specific prophecies that have been fulfilled, as proved by historical facts...

=========================

Quote by RubyDrg0n So DarkIngram with your quote of Jehovah, I assume that you think that we cant understand nor know God because God is higher and above us. And yet, you say that the bible gives enough information to tell us about God as a person and how God deals with people. Are you assuming you know God? and why use "he" when you refer to God? (So God is a guy eh?) But I thought you think that "he" is different from us and much more advance with all those quotes you gave us....

Does that make you the same level as "he" is? Or are you assuming that you know more about "him" and gain superiority about it?

The Bible strongly urges the seeking for and treasuring of right knowledge, recommending it rather than gold...

"Take my discipline and not silver, and knowledge rather than choice gold."--Proverbs 8:10

Jesus stressed the importance of truly knowing him and his Father, and knowledge is repeatedly emphasized in the books of the Christian Greek Scriptures...

"This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."--John 17:3

"And this is what I continue praying, that your love may abound yet more and more with accurate knowledge and full discernment;"--Philippians 1:9
_____________________________
Jehovah God is actually the basic Source of knowledge. Life, of course, is from him and life is essential for one's having any knowledge...

"For with you is the source of life; By light from you we can see light."--Psalm 36:9
____________________
God also inspired his written Word, from which man can learn the divine will and purposes...

"All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."--2 Timothy 3:16-17
___________________

Thus the focal point of all true knowledge is Jehovah, and a person seeking it ought to have a fear of God that makes him careful not to incur Jehovah's displeasure. Such fear is the beginning of knowledge...

"The fear of Jehovah is the beginning of knowledge. Wisdom and discipline are what mere fools have despised."--Proverbs 1:7

Such godly fear puts one in position to gain accurate knowledge, whereas those who do not consider God readily draw wrong conclusions from the things that they observe....
______________

The Bible repeatedly links Jehovah and knowledge, calling him "a God of knowledge" and describing him as "perfect in knowledge."

"Do not you people speak very haughtily so much, Let nothing go forth unrestrained from your mouth, For a God of knowledge Jehovah is, And by him deeds are rightly estimated."--1 Samuel 2:3

"For my words are for a fact no falsehood; The One perfect in knowledge is with you."--Job 36:4

"Do you know about the poisings of the cloud, The wonderful works of the One perfect in knowledge?"--Job 37:16

I'm not assuming that I know everything... the source of my knowledge is from Jehovah God... man has a limited knowledge as I've said...

The Bible itself gives the answer the knowledge... At 2 Peter 1:21, we are told that the Bible prophets "spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit." The Bible thus indicates that it is a book from God.

=================

Quote by RubyDrg0nQuestions:
1. Is it that people believe because they want to believe or is it because they are forced to believe as it is true?

2. Did you believe to gain superiority over others?

3. Did you love God because it represent someone you would want to be like?

4. Did you love God because of promised to Heaven?

5. Did you believe God because of fear of going to Hell?

6. Define Love for God not through the bible but as in how you would Love God.

7. Would you love God so much and go to Hell forever just for God if requested?

1. Anyone who is serious about his beliefs should think that it is the right one. Otherwise, why would he or she be involved in it? Christians are admonished: "Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) It's my choice & I believe only in the "word of God"...

A person should make sure that his beliefs can be supported by the Scriptures...

2. "God opposes the haughty ones, but he gives undeserved kindness to the humble ones."--1 Peter 5:5

A dictionary defines "lowly" as being "humble in manner or spirit: free from self-assertive pride." Lowliness of mind is synonymous with humility, and from God's viewpoint, it is a very desirable quality...

Gain superiority over others is wrong...

3. All of Jehovah's attributes are sterling, perfect, and appealing. But the most endearing of all of Jehovah's qualities is love. Nothing else draws us so powerfully to Jehovah as his love. Happily, love is also his dominant quality.

4-5. Fear from hell or a promised heaven? I believe in God because I want to be resurrect again & to live in a Paradise Earth... not in heaven... To Love God Is to Fear Him... From a Scriptural standpoint, fearing God does not in any way rule out loving him. On the contrary, the Israelites were instructed to "fear Jehovah . . . so as to walk in all his ways and to love him." (Deuteronomy 10:12) Thus, fear of God and love of God are closely connected. Fear of God moves us to walk in his ways, and this in turn gives proof of our love for him...

"For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome,"--1 John 5:3

This is logical because when we love someone, we rightly fear to hurt him. The Israelites hurt Jehovah by their rebellious course in the wilderness. Surely we would not want to do anything to bring such sorrow to our heavenly Father...

"How often they would rebel against him in the wilderness, They would make him feel hurt in the desert! And again and again they would put God to the test, And they pained even the Holy One of Israel."--Psalm 78:40-41

On the other hand, since "Jehovah is finding pleasure in those fearing him," our obedience and faithfulness make his heart rejoice...

"Jehovah is finding pleasure in those fearing him,
In those waiting for his loving-kindness."--Psalm 147:11

Love of God moves us to please him, and fear of God holds us back from hurting him. They are complementary, not contradictory, qualities....

6. Love for God means doing His will & requirements....

7. Your question is tricky... you can't show your love for God by "going to hell eternally" to suffer for nothing.... -_-

As Christians, we are exhorted to be faithful until death, not necessarily to die for our faith...

This means that while we are willing to suffer--and, if necessary, to die--for our faith, we do not relish the thought of doing so. We take no delight in suffering and derive no pleasure from pain or humiliation. Since trials and persecution are to be expected, however, we need to consider carefully how we might act when such do come upon us...

In modern times, Jehovah's people have often found themselves under conditions of extreme hardship and deprivation because of wars, bans, or outright persecution...We were subjected to beatings and other harrowing experiences because of our preaching work...

Others choose not to move away because we are concerned about the spiritual welfare of our brothers. We choose to stay and face the situation in order to keep preaching in their home territory and to be a source of encouragement to fellow worshipers...

To stay or to move--that certainly is a personal decision. Such decisions, of course, should be made only after we prayerfully seek Jehovah's direction. No matter what course we may choose, however, we must bear in mind the apostle Paul's words: "Each of us will render an account for himself to God." (Romans 14:12) Jehovah God requires is that each of his servants remain faithful under any and all circumstances...

tobiast88

tobiast88

No patience for fools.

Quote by Darkingram3 proofs that the Bible is God's Word: (1) It is scientifically accurate, (2) it contains timeless principles that are practical for modern living, and (3) it contains specific prophecies that have been fulfilled, as proved by historical facts...


You are hilarious in your utter ignorance. Scientifically accurate? Jeebus walks on water, bushes burn and talk, people come back from the dead, get miraculously healed or get their sight back, water parts for Mosy to pass, water turns to blood, to wine, bread and fish multiply... need I go on with the idiocies your book presents as truth? If these things happened, how come we can't do the same today? Scientifically accurate? Buddy, you have no clue of what science is.

Timeless principles for modern living? Stoning people and burning them is definitely applicable to contemporary times. Your idiot book says people shouldn't wear two types of cloth at the same time (Lev 19), which means you should probably be stoned right now. Your idiot book also says it's perfectly fine to sell your daughter into slavery, that women are inferior creatures, that gays should be stoned (again)... Is this the way you act daily? If so, you're probably in prison for assault. Modern laws do not condone this archaic imbecilities that advocate murder for the slightest thing.

Prophecies? Give me a few. Prove your points.

And I don't see why these three points prove that your idiot book is the word of your goddy. According to your definition, diet books and textbooks are the words of goddy as well: they contain scientifically accurate information, they contain principles relevant to modern living, and assert things that come true (experiments succeed, or you get thinner). So, do you worship your textbooks, or diet books? Because they're the word of your goddy, you said so yourself.

What's really funny and pathetic about you is that you try to prove goddy through your idiot book, and then your idiot book through goddy. And then you act satisfied about the conclusions. Try to argue with something else, like a mildly intelligent person such as Persocom01, because you are just spouting verses from your idiot book and aserting them to be truth, because it is goddy's word, because it is written in your idiot book, which is the word of goddy, etc, ad nauseam. (and believe me, ad nauseam comes very quickly when reading your hallucinogenic posts)

"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis, Litterature Nobel Prize winner.
Join the groups!
http://mt-atheists.minitokyo.net/ ---> for science vs religion discussion
http://mt-gay-straight-club.minitokyo.net/ ---> for tolerant people

xandman

xandman

The King of Hearts

Quote by DarkIngram"Do not answer anyone stupid according to his foolishness, that you yourself also may not become equal to him. Answer someone stupid according to his foolishness, that he may not become someone wise in his own eyes."--Proverbs 26:4-5

"The senseless one has said in his heart: "There is no Jehovah." They have acted ruinously and have acted detestably in unrighteousness;
There is no one doing good."--Psalm 53:1

xandman, post your constructive replies... if you don't believe in God, prove your beliefs...

hahahaha! I'm not gonna prove anything i don't believe in, hAHHA! You're one funny person :) You prove to me that there's a God and i'll believe you when i see it. And i don't want it proven by written means, i want to witness it. If you can do that, then you're not a hypocrite.

and no, believing a big fat book full of bullshit doesn't count as proof. I fell asleep reading the blank page, that says alot about what i think of the Book of Ultimate Boredom.

but you know, i've got honor. So i'll say that you can believe in whatever you want, you have the rights to do as such, and i respect your beliefs. But i swear to my goddess lady luck as my holy witness, do not drag me down into your boring bullshit :)

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Quote: Try to use your eyes, ears & heart... :)

There's nothing wrong with my perception, you're just crazy. Unfortunately the insane never actually know they're insane (or else they wouldn't be insane anymore).

Quote: Have you met alots of religious people who claims that they're religion & god is the "true one"?

They all do.

Quote: Jesus said that the true religion would be evident in the lives of the people who practice it. "By their fruits you will recognize them," he said. "Every good tree produces fine fruit." (Matthew 7:16-17) In other words, those who practice the true religion would be recognized by their beliefs and their conduct. Although they are not perfect and they make mistakes, true worshippers as a group seek to do God's will...

* God's servants base their teachings on the Bible
* Those who practice the true religion worship only Jehovah and make His name known
* God's people show genuine, unselfish love for one another
* True Christians accept Jesus Christ as God's means of salvation
* True worshippers are no part of the world
* Jesus' true followers preach that God's Kingdom is mankind's only hope

You can't prove your religion through your religion. The only thing you've proven here is that the bible has warped your mind so badly that even simple preschool logic is no longer present.

Quote: I've said that because you only believe in the things that our eyes can see... Most of you denies in the existence of God because you haven't saw Him.... God is a Spirit...

I believe in plenty of things I can't see because there is logical reason to believe them. There is no reason to believe in a god though.

Quote: About you've said, we pay taxes to the government... as an individual taxpayers... We use the money for preaching work.... :)

Everyone pays individual taxes genius, that doesn't make your business exempt though. The business of religion pays no taxes. And I don't care if you use the money for "preaching" work, it's the same as advertisement for any other company but they still pay taxes don't they?

Quote: 3 proofs that the Bible is God's Word: (1) It is scientifically accurate, (2) it contains timeless principles that are practical for modern living, and (3) it contains specific prophecies that have been fulfilled, as proved by historical facts...

1. Are you high? It's not scientifically accurate at all. Dinosaurs existed, animals evolved, people don't live for 150+ years, a god doesn't involve itself in our everyday lives, snakes don't eat dirt, angels don't live in the sky, the earth is round, there was no global flood, etc etc etc. The damn thing isn't even historically accurate, let alone scientifically.

2. Oh like all those rules about stoning children to death and raping slaves? Yeah real freakin practical today.

3. Like that whole Jesus returning to earth thing? Still waiting. And if it was written by god they should all be fulfilled. They aren't.

"Joshua said that God would, without fail, drive out the Jebusites and Canaanites, among others (Josh. 3:9-10). But those tribes were not driven out (Josh. 15:63, 17:12-13). Ezekiel said Egypt would be made an uninhabited wasteland for forty years (29:10-14), and Nebuchadrezzar would plunder it (29:19-20). Neither happened."

TessaLover12

TessaLover12

MT is My Home!

We don't know god was here & or is here. We read a book to tell us what he did. That's about the only book almost everyone reads.

R.I.P. The King of the Ring Eddie Guerrero, and The King of Pop Michael Jackson
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Courtesy of soujiokita

DarkIngram

DarkIngram

Urzu 7

@Plunkies & tobiast88: Here's the proof....

Bible Prophecies and Their Fulfillment

To Be 'Swept With the Broom of Annihilation'
Ancient Babylon became "the jewel of kingdoms." (Isaiah 13:19, The New American Bible) This sprawling city was strategically located on the trade route from the Persian Gulf to the Mediterranean Sea, serving as a commercial depot for both land and sea trade between the East and the West...

By the seventh century B.C.E., Babylon was the seemingly impregnable capital of the Babylonian Empire. The city straddled the Euphrates River, and the river's waters were used to form a broad, deep moat and a network of canals. In addition, the city was protected by a massive system of double walls, buttressed by numerous defense towers. Little wonder that its inhabitants felt secure...

Nevertheless, in the eighth century B.C.E., before Babylon rose to the height of its glory, the prophet Isaiah foretold that Babylon would be 'swept with the broom of annihilation.'

"And I will rise up against them," is the utterance of Jehovah of armies. "And I will cut off from Babylon name and remnant and progeny and posterity," is the utterance of Jehovah. "And I will make her a possession of porcupines and reedy pools of water, and I will sweep her with the broom of annihilation," is the utterance of Jehovah of armies."--Isaiah 14:22, 23

Isaiah also described the very manner in which Babylon would fall. The invaders would 'dry up' its rivers--the source of its moatlike defense--making the city vulnerable. Isaiah even supplied the name of the conqueror--"Cyrus," a great Persian king, "before whom gates shall be opened and no doors be shut."--Isaiah 44:27; 45:2, The New English Bible.

These were bold predictions. But did they come true? History answers.

'Without a Battle'
Two centuries after Isaiah recorded his prophecy, on the night of October 5, 539 B.C.E., the armies of Medo-Persia under the command of Cyrus the Great were encamped near Babylon. But the Babylonians were confident. According to the Greek historian Herodotus (fifth century B.C.E.), they had enough provisions stored up to last for years. They also had the Euphrates River and Babylon's mighty walls to protect them. Nonetheless, on that very night, according to the Nabonidus Chronicle, "the army of Cyrus entered Babylon without battle." How was that possible?

Herodotus explains that inside the city, the people "were dancing and making merry at a festival." Outside, however, Cyrus had diverted the waters of the Euphrates. As the water level sank, his army sloshed along the riverbed, with water up to their thighs. They marched past the towering walls and entered through what Herodotus called "the gates that opened on the river," gates carelessly left open.

(Compare Daniel 5:1-4; Jeremiah 50:24; 51:31, 32.)

"As regards Belshaz'zar the king, he made a big feast for a thousand of his grandees, and in front of the thousand he was drinking wine. Belshaz'zar, under the influence of the wine, said to bring in the vessels of gold and of silver that Nebuchadnez'zar his father had taken away from the temple that was in Jerusalem, that from them the king and his grandees, his concubines and his secondary wives might drink. At that time they brought in the vessels of gold that they had taken away from the temple of the house of God that was in Jerusalem, and from them the king and his grandees, his concubines and his secondary wives drank. They drank wine, and they praised the gods of gold and of silver, copper, iron, wood and stone."--Daniel 5:1-4

"I have laid a snare for you and you have also been caught, O Babylon, and you yourself did not know [it]. You were found and also taken hold of, for it was against Jehovah that you excited yourself."--Jeremiah 50:24

"One runner runs to meet another runner, and one reporter to meet another reporter, to report to the king of Babylon that his city has been captured at every end, and that the fords themselves have been seized, and the papyrus boats they have burned with fire, and the men of war themselves have become disturbed."--Jeremiah 51:31-32

Other historians, including Xenophon (c. 431?c. 352 B.C.E.), as well as cuneiform tablets found by archaeologists, confirm the sudden fall of Babylon to Cyrus...

Isaiah's prophecy about Babylon was thus fulfilled. Or was it? Is it possible that this was not a prediction but was actually written after the fact? Really, the same could be asked about other Bible prophecies...

History Masquerading as Prophecy?
If the Bible prophets--including Isaiah--merely rewrote history to look like prophecy, then these men were nothing more than clever frauds. But what would be their motive for such trickery? True prophets readily made it known that they could not be bribed:

"Here I am. Answer against me in front of Jehovah and in front of his anointed one: Whose bull have I taken or whose ass have I taken or whom have I defrauded or whom have I crushed or from whose hand have I accepted hush money that I should hide my eyes with it? And I shall make restoration to YOU people."--1 Samuel 12:3

"At that time Daniel was answering and saying before the king: "Let your gifts prove to be to you yourself, and your presents do you give to others. However, I shall read the writing itself to the king, and the interpretation I shall make known to him."--Daniel 5:17

And we have already considered compelling evidence that the Bible writers (many of whom were prophets) were trustworthy men who were willing to reveal even their own embarrassing errors. It seems unlikely that men of this sort would be inclined to commit elaborate frauds, disguising history as prophecy...

There is something else to consider. Many Bible prophecies contained scathing denunciations of the prophets' own people, which included the priests and rulers. Isaiah, for example, decried the deplorable moral condition of the Israelites--both leaders and people--in his day. (Isaiah 1:2-10) Other prophets forcefully exposed the sins of the priests. (Zephaniah 3:4; Malachi 2:1-9) It is difficult to conceive why they would fabricate prophecies that contained the sharpest censures imaginable against their own people and why the priests would have cooperated in such a ruse...

In addition, how could the prophets--if they were nothing more than impostors--have pulled off such forgery? Literacy was encouraged in Israel. From an early age, children were taught how to read and write. (Deuteronomy 6:6-9) Private reading of the Scriptures was urged. (Psalm 1:2) There was a public reading of the Scriptures in the synagogues on the weekly Sabbath. (Acts 15:21) It seems improbable that an entire literate nation, well versed in the Scriptures, could have been deceived by such a hoax...

Besides, there is more to Isaiah's prophecy of Babylon's fall. Included in it is a detail that simply could not have been written after the fulfillment...

"She Will Never Be Inhabited"
What would become of Babylon after its fall? Isaiah foretold: "She will never be inhabited, nor will she reside for generation after generation. And there the Arab will not pitch his tent, and no shepherds will let their flocks lie down there." (Isaiah 13:20) It may have seemed odd, to say the least, to predict that such a favorably situated city would become permanently uninhabited. Could Isaiah's words have been written after he had observed a desolate Babylon?

Following the takeover by Cyrus, an inhabited Babylon--albeit an inferior one--continued for centuries. Recall that the Dead Sea Scrolls include a copy of the complete book of Isaiah that is dated to the second century B.C.E. About the time that that scroll was being copied, the Parthians took control of Babylon. In the first century C.E., there was a settlement of Jews in Babylon, and the Bible writer Peter visited there.

"She who is in Babylon, a chosen one like [YOU], sends YOU her greetings, and so does Mark my son."--1 Peter 5:13

By that time, the Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah had been in existence for the better part of two centuries. So, as of the first century C.E., Babylon still was not completely desolate, yet Isaiah?s book had been finished long before then...

As foretold, Babylon eventually became mere "piles of stones."

"And Babylon must become piles of stones, the lair of jackals, an object of astonishment and something to whistle at, without an inhabitant."--Jeremiah 51:37

According to the Hebrew scholar Jerome (fourth century C.E.), by his day Babylon was a hunting ground in which "beasts of every type" roamed. Babylon remains desolate to this day...

Isaiah never lived to see Babylon become uninhabited. But the ruins of that once powerful city, about 50 miles [80 km] south of Baghdad, in modern Iraq, bear silent testimony to the fulfillment of his words: "She will never be inhabited." Any restoration of Babylon as a tourist attraction might lure visitors, but Babylon's "progeny and posterity" are gone forever...

"She will never be inhabited, nor will she reside for generation after generation. And there the Arab will not pitch his tent, and no shepherds will let [their flocks] lie down there."--Isaiah 13:20

"And I will rise up against them," is the utterance of Jehovah of armies. "And I will cut off from Babylon name and remnant and progeny and posterity," is the utterance of Jehovah. "And I will make her a possession of porcupines and reedy pools of water, and I will sweep her with the broom of annihilation," is the utterance of Jehovah of armies."--Isaiah 14:22, 23

The prophet Isaiah thus did not utter vague predictions that could be made to fit just any future happening. Neither did he rewrite history to make it appear as prophecy. Think about it: Why would an impostor risk "prophesying" something over which he would have absolutely no control--that mighty Babylon would never again be inhabited?

This prophecy about Babylon's downfall is but one example from the Bible. Many people see in the fulfillment of its prophecies an indication that the Bible must be from a source higher than man. Perhaps you would agree that, at the very least, this book of prophecy is worth examining. One thing is certain: There is a vast difference between the hazy or sensational predictions of modern-day soothsayers and the clear, sober, and specific prophecies of the Bible...
____________________________

Another one....

What indicates that we today are living in "the last days"?

The Bible describes events and conditions that mark this significant time period. "The sign" is a composite one made up of many evidences; thus its fulfillment requires that all aspects of the sign be clearly in evidence during one generation. The various aspects of the sign are recorded at Matthew chapters 24, 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21; there are further details at 2 Timothy 3:1-5, 2 Peter 3:3, 4, and Revelation 6:1-8. By way of illustration, we will consider a few outstanding portions of the sign...

"Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom"--Matthew 24:7
War has marred life on the earth for thousands of years. International wars and wars within nations have been fought. But beginning in 1914 the first world war was fought. This was not merely a conflict between two armies on the battlefield. For the first time, all the major powers were at war. Entire nations--including civilian populations--were mobilized to support the war effort. It is estimated that by the end of the war 93 percent of the population of the world was involved...

As foretold at Revelation 6:4, 'peace was taken away from the earth.'

"And another came forth, a fiery-colored horse; and to the one seated upon it there was granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him."--Revelation 6:4

Thus the world has continued to be in a state of upheaval ever since 1914. World War II was fought from 1939 to 1945. According to retired Admiral Gene La Rocque, as of 1982 there had been another 270 wars since 1945. Upwards of 100 million persons have been slaughtered in warfare during this century. Also, according to the 1982 edition of World Military and Social Expenditures, there were in that year 100 million people engaged directly or indirectly in military activities...

Is more required in order to fulfill this aspect of the prophecy? There are tens of thousands of nuclear weapons deployed for immediate use. Leading scientists have said that if the nations were to use even a fraction of their nuclear arsenals, civilization and possibly the entire human species would be destroyed. But that is not the outcome to which Bible prophecy points...

"There will be food shortages . . . in one place after another"--Matthew 24:7
There have been many famines in human history. To what extent has the 20th century been afflicted by them? World war led to widespread starvation in Europe and Asia. Africa has been stricken by drought, resulting in extensive food shortages. Late in 1980 the Food and Agriculture Organization estimated that 450 million people were hungry to the point of starvation, and up to a billion did not have enough to eat. Of these, some 40 million a year actually die--in some years as many as 50 million--because of the shortage of food...

Is anything different about these food shortages?

"And I heard a voice as if in the midst of the four living creatures say: "A quart of wheat for a denar'ius, and three quarts of barley for a denar'ius; and do not harm the olive oil and the wine."--Revelation 6:6

Revelation 6:6 indicated that a small quantity of such staples as wheat or barley would be selling for a day's wage (a denarius; see Matthew 20:2) but that supplies of such items as olive oil and wine used by people who are well-to-do would not be harmed. So apparently many would suffer shortage while others could still get what they wanted. This situation is no longer local, but global. In 1981 The New York Times reported: "The improvement in living standards and the growing demand for food around the world have put pressure on food prices, making it harder for the poorest countries to import their food needs." In many lands the production of food, even with the aid of modern science, has not been able to keep pace with the increase in total population. Modern food experts see no real solution to the problem...

"There will be great earthquakes"--Luke 21:11
It is true that there were major quakes in centuries past; furthermore, with their sensitive equipment scientists now detect more than a million quakes a year. But no special instruments are needed for people to know when there is a great earthquake...

Has there actually been a significant number of major earthquakes since 1914? With data obtained from the National Geophysical Data Center in Boulder, Colorado, supplemented by a number of standard reference works, a tabulation was made in 1984 that included only earthquakes that measured 7.5 or more on the Richter scale, or that resulted in destruction of five million dollars (U.S.) or more in property, or that caused 100 or more deaths. It was calculated that there had been 856 of such earthquakes during the 2,000 years before 1914. The same tabulation showed that in just 69 years following 1914 there were 605 of such quakes. That means that, in comparison with the previous 2,000 years, the average per year has been 20 times as great since 1914...

"In one place after another pestilences"--Luke 21:11
At the close of the first world war the Spanish flu swept around the globe, claiming upwards of 20 million lives and at a rate unparalleled in the history of disease. Despite advances in medical science, a heavy toll is exacted every year by cancer, heart disease, numerous sexually transmitted diseases, multiple sclerosis, malaria, river blindness, and Chagas' disease...

'Increased lawlessness accompanied by a cooling off of love on the part of the greater number'--Matthew 24:11-12
A leading criminologist says: "The one thing that hits you in the eye when you look at crime on the world scale is a pervasive and persistent increase everywhere. Such exceptions as there are stand out in splendid isolation, and may soon be swamped in the rising tide." (The Growth of Crime, New York, 1977, Sir Leon Radzinowicz and Joan King, pp. 4, 5) The increase is real; it is not merely a matter of better reporting. It is true, past generations had criminals too, but never before has crime been as pervasive as it is now. Persons who are up in years know that from personal experience...

The lawlessness referred to in the prophecy includes contempt for the known laws of God, a placing of self instead of God at the center of one's life. As a result of this attitude, divorce rates are skyrocketing, sex outside of marriage and homosexuality are widely accepted, and tens of millions of abortions are performed every year. Such lawlessness is associated (in Matthew 24:11-12) with the influence of false prophets, those who set aside God's Word in favor of their own teachings. Heeding their philosophies instead of holding to the Bible contributes toward a loveless world. (1 John 4:8) Read the description of it at 2 Timothy 3:1-5...

"And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off."--Matthew 24:11-12

"He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love."--1 John 4:8

"But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away."--2 Timothy 3:1-5

"Men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth"--Luke 21:25-26
"The fact is that today the biggest single emotion which dominates our lives is fear," said U.S. News & World Report. (October 11, 1965, p. 144) "Never before has mankind been as fearful as at present," reported the German magazine Horzu.--No. 25, June 20, 1980, p. 22.

Many factors contribute to this global atmosphere of fear: violent crime, unemployment, economic instability because so many nations are hopelessly in debt, worldwide pollution of the environment, lack of strong and loving family ties, and the overwhelming feeling that mankind is in imminent danger of nuclear annihilation.

"Also, there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and [its] agitation,"--Luke 21:25

Luke 21:25 mentions 'signs in sun, moon, and stars, and roaring of the seas' in connection with the anguish felt by the nations. The rising of the sun often causes, not happy anticipation, but fear of what the day may bring; when the moon and stars shine, fear of crime makes people stay behind locked doors. In the 20th century, but not before, planes and missiles have been used to send destruction streaking down from the heavens. Submarines carrying deadly loads of missiles prowl the seas, just one such submarine being equipped to annihilate 160 cities. No wonder the nations are in anguish!

'Christ's true followers to be objects of hatred by all nations on account of his name'--Matthew 24:9
This persecution is not because of political meddling but 'on account of the name of Jesus Christ,' because his followers adhere to him as Jehovah's Messianic King, because of their obeying Christ ahead of any earthly ruler, because of their loyally adhering to his Kingdom and not becoming involved in the affairs of human governments. As modern-day history testifies, that has been the experience of Jehovah's Witnesses in all parts of the earth (including me)...

'This good news of the kingdom preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness'--Matthew 24:14
The message that would be preached is that God's Kingdom in the hands of Jesus Christ has begun to rule in the heavens, that soon it will put an end to the entire wicked system of things, that under its rule mankind will be brought to perfection and earth will become a paradise. That good news is being preached today in over 200 lands and island groups, to the most distant parts of the earth. Jehovah's Witnesses devote hundreds of millions of hours to this activity each year, making repeated house-to-house visits so that everyone possible is given the opportunity to hear... :)

______________________________

Does This Book Agree With Science?

If the Bible writers had endorsed the most widely held scientific views of their day, the result would be a book of glaring scientific inaccuracies. Yet the writers did not promote such unscientific misconceptions. On the contrary, they penned a number of statements that not only are scientifically sound but also directly contradicted the accepted opinions of the day...

What Is the Shape of the Earth?
That question has intrigued humans for thousands of years. The general view in ancient times was that the earth was flat. The Babylonians, for example, believed that the universe was a box or a chamber with the earth as its floor. Vedic priests of India imagined that the earth was flat and that only one side of it was inhabited. A primitive tribe in Asia pictured the earth as a huge tea tray...

As early as the sixth century B.C.E., Greek philosopher Pythagoras theorized that since the moon and the sun are spherical, the earth must also be a sphere. Aristotle (fourth century B.C.E.) later agreed, explaining that the sphericity of the earth is proved by lunar eclipses. The earth's shadow on the moon is curved...

However, the notion of a flat earth (with only its upper side inhabited) did not disappear completely. Some could not accept the logical implication of a round earth--the concept of antipodes. Lactantius, Christian apologist of the fourth century C.E., ridiculed the very idea. He reasoned: "Is there any one so senseless as to believe that there are men whose footsteps are higher than their heads? . . . that the crops and trees grow downwards? that the rains, and snow, and hail fall upwards?"

The concept of antipodes posed a dilemma for a few theologians. Certain theories held that if there were antipodeans, they could have no possible connection with known humans either because the sea was too wide to navigate or because an impassable torrid zone surrounded the equator. So where could any antipodeans have come from? Perplexed, some theologians preferred to believe that there could be no antipodeans, or even, as Lactantius argued, that the earth could not be a sphere in the first place!

Nonetheless, the concept of a spherical earth prevailed, and eventually it was widely accepted. Only with the dawn of the space age in the 20th century, however, has it been possible for humans to travel far enough into space to verify by direct observation that the earth is a globe...

And where did the Bible stand on this issue? In the eighth century B.C.E., when the prevailing view was that the earth was flat, centuries before Greek philosophers theorized that the earth likely was spherical, and thousands of years before humans saw the earth as a globe from space, the Hebrew prophet Isaiah stated with remarkable simplicity: "There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth." (Isaiah 40:22) The Hebrew word chugh, here translated "circle," may also be rendered "sphere." Other Bible translations read, "the globe of the earth" (Douay Version) and "the round earth."

The Bible writer Isaiah avoided the common myths about the earth. Instead, he penned a statement that was not threatened by the advances of scientific discovery...

In ancient times, humans were perplexed by other questions about the cosmos: What is the earth resting on? What holds up the sun, the moon, and the stars? They had no knowledge of the law of universal gravitation, formulated by Isaac Newton and published in 1687. The idea that heavenly bodies are, in effect, suspended in empty space upon nothing was unknown to them. Thus, their explanations often suggested that tangible objects or substances held the earth and other heavenly bodies aloft...

For example, one ancient theory, perhaps originated by people who lived on an island, was that the earth was surrounded by water and that it floated in these waters. The Hindus conceived that the earth had several foundations, one on top of the other. It rested on four elephants, the elephants stood on an enormous tortoise, the tortoise stood on an immense serpent, and the coiled serpent floated on universal waters. Empedocles, a Greek philosopher of the fifth century B.C.E., believed that the earth rested upon a whirlwind and that this whirlwind was the cause of the motion of the heavenly bodies...

Among the most influential views were those of Aristotle. Although he theorized that the earth is a sphere, he denied that it could ever hang in empty space. In his treatise On the Heavens, when refuting the notion that the earth rests on water, he said: "It is not the nature of water, any more than of earth, to stay in mid-air: it must have something to rest upon." So, what does the earth "rest upon"? Aristotle taught that the sun, the moon, and the stars were attached to the surface of solid, transparent spheres. Sphere lay nestled within sphere, with the earth--immobile--at the center. As the spheres revolved within one another, the objects on them--the sun, the moon, and the planets--moved across the sky...

Aristotle's explanation seemed logical. If the heavenly bodies were not firmly attached to something, how else could they stay aloft? The views of the revered Aristotle were accepted as fact for some 2,000 years. According to The New Encyclopdia Britannica, in the 16th and 17th centuries his teachings "ascended to the status of religious dogma" in the eyes of the church...

With the invention of the telescope, astronomers began to question Aristotle's theory. Still, the answer eluded them until Sir Isaac Newton explained that the planets are suspended in empty space, held in their orbits by an invisible force--gravity. It seemed incredible, and some of Newton's colleagues found it hard to believe that space could be a void, largely empty of substance...

What does the Bible have to say on this question? Nearly 3,500 years ago, the Bible stated with extraordinary clarity that the earth is hanging "upon nothing." (Job 26:7) In the original Hebrew, the word for "nothing" (beli-mah') used here literally means "without anything." The Contemporary English Version uses the expression, "on empty space."

A planet hanging "on empty space" was not at all how most people in those days pictured the earth. Yet, far ahead of his time, the Bible writer recorded a statement that is scientifically sound...

The Bible and Medical Science--Do They Agree?
Modern medical science has taught us much about the spread and prevention of disease. Medical advances in the 19th century led to the introduction into medical practice of antisepsis--cleanliness to reduce infections. The result was dramatic. There was a significant reduction in infections and premature deaths...

Ancient physicians, however, did not fully understand how disease spreads, nor did they realize the importance of sanitation in preventing sickness. Little wonder that many of their medical practices would seem barbaric by modern standards...

One of the oldest medical texts available is the Ebers Papyrus, a compilation of Egyptian medical knowledge, dating from about 1550 B.C.E. This scroll contains some 700 remedies for various afflictions "ranging from crocodile bite to toenail pain." States The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia: "The medical knowledge of these physicians was purely empirical, largely magical and wholly unscientific." Most of the remedies were merely ineffective, but some of them were extremely dangerous. For the treatment of a wound, one of the prescriptions recommended applying a mixture made of human excrement combined with other substances...

This text of Egyptian medical remedies was written at about the same time as the first books of the Bible, which included the Mosaic Law. Moses, who was born in 1593 B.C.E., grew up in Egypt. (Exodus 2:1-10) As a member of Pharaoh's household, he was "instructed in all the wisdom of the Egyptians." (Acts 7:22) He was familiar with "the physicians" of Egypt. (Genesis 50:1-3) Did their ineffective or dangerous medical practices influence his writings?

No. On the contrary, the Mosaic Law included sanitary regulations that were far ahead of their time. For example, a law regarding military encampments required burying excrement away from the camp...

"And a peg should be at your service along with your implements, and it must occur that when you squat outside, you must also dig a hole with it and turn and cover your excrement."--Deuteronomy 23:13

This was a profoundly advanced preventive measure. It helped keep water free from contamination and provided protection from fly-borne shigellosis and other diarrheal illnesses that still claim millions of lives each year in lands where sanitary conditions are deplorable...

The Mosaic Law contained other sanitary regulations that safeguarded Israel against the spread of infectious diseases. A person who had or was suspected of having a communicable disease was quarantined. (Leviticus 13:1-5) Garments or vessels that came in contact with an animal that had died of itself (perhaps from disease) were to be either washed before reuse or destroyed. (Leviticus 11:27, 28, 32, 33) Any person who touched a corpse was considered unclean and had to undergo a cleansing procedure that included washing his garments and bathing. During the seven-day period of uncleanness, he was to avoid physical contact with others.--Numbers 19:1-13

This sanitary code reveals wisdom not shared by the physicians of surrounding nations at the time. Thousands of years before medical science learned about the ways in which disease spreads, the Bible prescribed reasonable preventive measures as safeguards against disease. Not surprisingly, Moses could speak of Israelites in general in his day as living to 70 or 80 years of age.

"In themselves the days of our years are seventy years;
And if because of special mightiness they are eighty years,
Yet their insistence is on trouble and hurtful things;
For it must quickly pass by, and away we fly."--Psalm 90:10

You may acknowledge that the foregoing Biblical statements are scientifically accurate. But there are other statements in the Bible that cannot be proved scientifically. Does that necessarily put the Bible at odds with science?

Accepting the Unprovable
A statement that is unprovable is not necessarily untrue. Scientific proof is limited by man's ability to discover sufficient evidence and to interpret data correctly. But some truths are unprovable because no evidence has been preserved, the evidence is obscure or undiscovered, or scientific capabilities and expertise are insufficient to arrive at an uncontested conclusion. Might this be the case with certain Biblical statements for which independent physical evidence is lacking?

For example, the Bible's references to an invisible realm inhabited by spirit persons cannot be proved--or disproved--scientifically. The same can be said of miraculous events mentioned in the Bible. Not enough clear geologic evidence for the global Flood of Noah's day is available to satisfy some people. (Genesis, chapter 7) Must we conclude that it did not happen? Historical events can be obscured by time and change. So is it not possible that thousands of years of geologic activity has effaced much of the evidence for the Flood?

Granted, the Bible contains statements that cannot be proved or disproved by available physical evidence. But should that surprise us? The Bible is not a science textbook. It is, however, a book of truth. We have already considered strong evidence that its writers were men of integrity and honesty. And when they touch on matters related to science, their words are accurate and completely free from ancient "scientific" theories that turned out to be mere myths. Science is thus no enemy of the Bible. There is every reason to weigh what the Bible says with an open mind...

Quote by DarkIngramBible Prophecies and Their Fulfillment

There are several mundane ways in which a prediction of the future can be fulfilled:

1. Retrodiction. The "prophecy" can be written or modified after the events fulfilling it have already occurred.
2. Vagueness. The prophecy can be worded in such a way that people can interpret any outcome as a fulfillment. Nostradomus's prophecies are all of this type. Vagueness works particularly well when people are religiously motivated to believe the prophecies.
3. Inevitability. The prophecy can predict something that is almost sure to happen, such as the collapse of a city. Since nothing lasts forever, the city is sure to fall someday. If it has not, it can be said that according to prophecy, it will.
4. Denial. One can claim that the fulfilling events occurred even if they have not. Or, more commonly, one can forget that the prophecy was ever made.
5. Self-fulfillment. A person can act deliberately to satisfy a known prophecy.

There are no prophecies in the Bible that cannot easily fit into one or more of those categories.

In biblical times, prophecies were not simply predictions. They were warnings of what could or would happen if things did not change. They were meant to influence people's behavior. If the people heeded the prophecy, the events would not come to pass; Jonah 3 gives an example. A fulfilled prophecy was a failed prophecy, because it meant people did not heed the warning.

Other religions claim many fulfilled prophecies, too

Quote: To Be 'Swept With the Broom of Annihilation'

Blegh I hate disproving individual prophecies. Seems pointless. You're saying the bible is written by god and yet I can show you a ridiculous amount of wrong historical accounts, failed prophecies, not to mention the scammers of the bible and their retrodictive prophecies.

Anyway, this is a shotgun type of prophecy. You just rattle off many individual predictions, quote the ones that pan out by sheer chance and ignore the false ones. It's also retrodictive. Unfortunately you've made your post so long that I can't pick this apart and not be stuck here for over half an hour so I can't be bothered. Furthermore Isaiah is proven a False Prophet.

Quote: 'Without a Battle'

Is it possible that this was not a prediction but was actually written after the fact?

Indeed it is. Considering this, he was also a sucky historian, but that's beside the point. Anyway since you mentioned it, here's daniel getting ripped a new one.....

Ouch!

Quote: History Masquerading as Prophecy?

If the Bible prophets--including Isaiah--merely rewrote history to look like prophecy, then these men were nothing more than clever frauds. But what would be their motive for such trickery? True prophets readily made it known that they could not be bribed:

Yes they were clever frauds. And some accounts that they weren't bribed is what you call proof? That's like a murderer getting testimony from a friend saying he gave away half his chicken sandwich one time. How could a person so generous as to give away part of his sandwich ever commit a murder? It's not proof of anything.

Quote: And we have already considered compelling evidence that the Bible writers (many of whom were prophets) were trustworthy men who were willing to reveal even their own embarrassing errors. It seems unlikely that men of this sort would be inclined to commit elaborate frauds, disguising history as prophecy...

It seems unlikely? This stuff is frustrating to even read. There's actual evidence that they ARE frauds. Not just character witnesses (in the fraudulant book I might add).

Quote: "She Will Never Be Inhabited"

What would become of Babylon after its fall? Isaiah foretold: "She will never be inhabited, nor will she reside for generation after generation. And there the Arab will not pitch his tent, and no shepherds will let their flocks lie down there." (Isaiah 13:20) It may have seemed odd, to say the least, to predict that such a favorably situated city would become permanently uninhabited. Could Isaiah's words have been written after he had observed a desolate Babylon?

See above.

"In reality, it was Persia, not Media, that conquered Babylon. The city was taken without violence. Babylon continued to flourish, and was inhabited for many centuries. The prophecy was not fulfilled. For more detail, see the chapter on Jeremiah."

Quote: What indicates that we today are living in "the last days"?

Yeah yeah it's ALWAYS the last days with you people isn't it. People in biblical times even thought that they were living in the "last days". Still has yet to happen though hasn't it?

Quote: "Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom"--Matthew 24:7

People will fight. That's some prophecy...The fact that you would even use such a vague prophecy goes to show how pathetic this is.

Quote: Is more required in order to fulfill this aspect of the prophecy? There are tens of thousands of nuclear weapons deployed for immediate use. Leading scientists have said that if the nations were to use even a fraction of their nuclear arsenals, civilization and possibly the entire human species would be destroyed. But that is not the outcome to which Bible prophecy points...

Too bad the bible doesn't say "humans will destroy each other with nuclear weapons". Now that would be impressive.

Quote: "There will be food shortages . . . in one place after another"--Matthew 24:7

Two or more places will be short on food. So accurate it's creepy.

This is so retarded I can't even believe I'm bothering with this....

Anyway humanity as a whole is getting better and better with this whole "food" thing. Genetically altered crops have saved well over a billion people.

Quote: "There will be great earthquakes"--Luke 21:11

Wow. It just gets more and more vague. "There will be an earthquake somewhere on earth at some point in the future! IT HAS BEEN SPOKEN!"

Makes me think I can be a prophet. Maybe I'll predict snow in Alaska!

Quote: That means that, in comparison with the previous 2,000 years, the average per year has been 20 times as great since 1914...

Here's a stunning "revelation" for ya...Earthquakes and any other natural disaster records weren't exactly thorough 1000 years ago. You must think people are idiots to fall for this garbage.

Quote: "In one place after another pestilences"--Luke 21:11

Oh, people will get sick! Incredible.

....

Quote: At the close of the first world war the Spanish flu swept around the globe, claiming upwards of 20 million lives and at a rate unparalleled in the history of disease. Despite advances in medical science, a heavy toll is exacted every year by cancer, heart disease, numerous sexually transmitted diseases, multiple sclerosis, malaria, river blindness, and Chagas' disease...

A heavy toll is also extracted from car accidents. Now that would have been a hellofa prediction eh?

Quote: 'Increased lawlessness accompanied by a cooling off of love on the part of the greater number'--Matthew 24:11-12

People will commit crimes. Did I mention how stupid this is?

Quote: A leading criminologist says: "The one thing that hits you in the eye when you look at crime on the world scale is a pervasive and persistent increase everywhere. Such exceptions as there are stand out in splendid isolation, and may soon be swamped in the rising tide." (The Growth of Crime, New York, 1977, Sir Leon Radzinowicz and Joan King, pp. 4, 5) The increase is real; it is not merely a matter of better reporting. It is true, past generations had criminals too, but never before has crime been as pervasive as it is now. Persons who are up in years know that from personal experience...


Again, criminal records and law enforcement are a lot better now. Of course we're going to catch more criminals. Crime as a whole has been on a decline.

Quote: The lawlessness referred to in the prophecy includes contempt for the known laws of God, a placing of self instead of God at the center of one's life. As a result of this attitude, divorce rates are skyrocketing, sex outside of marriage and homosexuality are widely accepted, and tens of millions of abortions are performed every year. Such lawlessness is associated (in Matthew 24:11-12) with the influence of false prophets, those who set aside God's Word in favor of their own teachings. Heeding their philosophies instead of holding to the Bible contributes toward a loveless world. (1 John 4:8) Read the description of it at 2 Timothy 3:1-5...

People will stop believing in ridiculous superstitions and myths? Meh, doesn't seem to be happening fast enough does it? Still a pretty crappy prophecy though. Every religion dies eventually. There are thousands of gods..

Quote: "But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away."--2 Timothy 3:1-5

Wow. Does it say anything about the use of obnoxious bold and colors?

Quote: "Men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth"--Luke 21:25-26

People will be scared? It just gets more and more vague doesn't it?

Quote: "The fact is that today the biggest single emotion which dominates our lives is fear," said U.S. News & World Report. (October 11, 1965, p. 144) "Never before has mankind been as fearful as at present," reported the German magazine Horzu.--No. 25, June 20, 1980, p. 22.

Yeah yeah we're always more and more afraid aren't we? WW2, cold war, terrorism, blah blah blah. Unfortunately fear mongering is almost as profitable as religion. Infact fear mongering is the basis of religion if you think about it.

Quote: "Also, there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and [its] agitation,"--Luke 21:25

Luke 21:25 mentions 'signs in sun, moon, and stars, and roaring of the seas' in connection with the anguish felt by the nations. The rising of the sun often causes, not happy anticipation, but fear of what the day may bring; when the moon and stars shine, fear of crime makes people stay behind locked doors. In the 20th century, but not before, planes and missiles have been used to send destruction streaking down from the heavens. Submarines carrying deadly loads of missiles prowl the seas, just one such submarine being equipped to annihilate 160 cities. No wonder the nations are in anguish!

Now this is what I like to see. A vague prophecy manipulated, misinterpreted and mashed to fit like a square peg in a round hole.

"Roaring of the sea" means submarines launching nukes? "Signs in the sun and moon and stars" means planes dropping bombs? What a joke.

Quote: 'Christ's true followers to be objects of hatred by all nations on account of his name'--Matthew 24:9

This persecution is not because of political meddling but 'on account of the name of Jesus Christ,' because his followers adhere to him as Jehovah's Messianic King, because of their obeying Christ ahead of any earthly ruler, because of their loyally adhering to his Kingdom and not becoming involved in the affairs of human governments. As modern-day history testifies, that has been the experience of Jehovah's Witnesses in all parts of the earth (including me)...

People hate every religion and every religion hates each other. There's no specific hatred of christians. If anything it's the christians hating everyone else.

Quote: 'This good news of the kingdom preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness'--Matthew 24:14

Preachers will preach...riveting.

______________________________

Quote: Does This Book Agree With Science?

Hey what a great question! Does it? My guess is no....

Quote: What Is the Shape of the Earth?

1 Chronicles 16:30: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable."

Psalm 93:1: "Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ..."

Psalm 96:10: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ..."

Psalm 104:5: "Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken."

Isaiah 45:18: "...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast..."

(shamayim means dome in hebrew)

ob 9:8, "...who by himself spread out the heavens [shamayim]..."

Psalm 19:1, "The heavens [shamayim] tell out the glory of God, the vault of heaven [raqiya] reveals his handiwork."

Psalm 102:25, "...the heavens [shamayim] were thy handiwork."

Isaiah 45:12, "I, with my own hands, stretched out the heavens [shamayim] and caused all their host to shine..."

Isaiah 48:13, "...with my right hand I formed the expanse of the sky [shamayim]..."

Daniel 4:10-11, "...saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds."

Matthew 4:8, "Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world [cosmos] in their glory."

Revelation 1:7: "Behold, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye shall see him..."

Revelation 6:13-16: "...the stars in the sky fell to the earth, like figs shaken down by a gale; the sky vanished, as a scroll is rolled up...they called out to the mountains and the crags, Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One who sits on the throne..."

"From their geographical and historical context, one would expect the ancient Hebrews to have a flat-earth cosmology. Indeed, from the very beginning, ultra-orthodox Christians have been flat-earthers, arguing that to believe otherwise is to deny the literal truth of the Bible. The flat-earth implications of the Bible were rediscovered and popularized by English-speaking Christians in the mid-19th century. Liberal scriptural scholars later derived the same view. Thus, students with remarkably disparate points of view independently concluded that the ancient Hebrews had a flat-earth cosmology, often deriving this view from scripture alone. Their conclusions were dramatically confirmed by the rediscovery of 1 Enoch."

In further detail....

Quote: And where did the Bible stand on this issue? In the eighth century B.C.E., when the prevailing view was that the earth was flat, centuries before Greek philosophers theorized that the earth likely was spherical, and thousands of years before humans saw the earth as a globe from space, the Hebrew prophet Isaiah stated with remarkable simplicity: "There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth." (Isaiah 40:22) The Hebrew word chugh, here translated "circle," may also be rendered "sphere." Other Bible translations read, "the globe of the earth" (Douay Version) and "the round earth."

See link. Chuwg doesn't mean sphere. Nor does circle mean sphere.

Quote: The Bible writer Isaiah avoided the common myths about the earth.

No he didn't.

Quote: What does the Bible have to say on this question? Nearly 3,500 years ago, the Bible stated with extraordinary clarity that the earth is hanging "upon nothing." (Job 26:7) In the original Hebrew, the word for "nothing" (beli-mah') used here literally means "without anything." The Contemporary English Version uses the expression, "on empty space."

Also addressed in the link....

Quote: The Bible and Medical Science--Do They Agree?

1. Accuracy on one point does not show overall accuracy. Genesis 30:25-33, for example, describes a breeding program based on sympathetic magic.

2. Deuteronomy 23:9-14 is not about hygiene. The purpose of burying excrement is so God will not be offended by seeing anything indecent and turn away. The idea is religious; uncleanliness would make one unfit for a religious war. There is also a danger that exposed excrement could be found by the enemy and used magically against one (Scott 1979).

Numbers 19:11-22 is not about hygiene. It refers to ritual purification conducted by sprinkling water, not washing with it. The purification is to be done not immediately after touching the body, as good health practice would demand, but on the third and seventh days. Whoever fails to perform the ritual is unclean and must be ostracized from Israel. Basically, it is a superstitious taboo. Similar taboos against people who have touched dead bodies appear to be universal in Polynesia (Frazer 1993, 206). Furthermore, unless they have died from pestilence or have been decaying for a few days, dead bodies are no less clean than live ones.

3. The Bible does not include directives that really would indicate good medical practices, such as burying feces downhill from the source for drinking water, and washing ones hands in clean water in circumstances that really would prevent spreading dangerous germs.

4. Attributing a requirement of some special knowledge to account for knowledge of good health practices assumes the ancient Hebrews were idiots. People can often see the results that come from bad practices.

Quote: "And a peg should be at your service along with your implements, and it must occur that when you squat outside, you must also dig a hole with it and turn and cover your excrement."--Deuteronomy 23:13

My dog buries its crap in the backyard. Is my dog a prophet? I say yes.

Quote: ...Not enough clear geologic evidence for the global Flood of Noah's day is available to satisfy some people.

There's no evidence actually. A cataclysmic global flood would have left a MASSIVE amount of evidence. The simple existance of corral reefs are enough to disprove the flood myth in its entirety.

Quote: Must we conclude that it did not happen?

YES!

Quote: Historical events can be obscured by time and change.

A GLOBAL flood would not be obscured at all. Using your logic I can prove the Lord of the Rings is a historical account and that the existence of orcs is just obscured by time and change.

Quote: So is it not possible that thousands of years of geologic activity has effaced much of the evidence for the Flood?

Correct. Not possible. A global flood would have left thousands of species of animals extinct and killed off almost all of the plant life on earth. That's not something that's just "effaced" by a few thousand years.

Quote: Granted, the Bible contains statements that cannot be proved or disproved by available physical evidence. But should that surprise us? The Bible is not a science textbook. It is, however, a book of truth. We have already considered strong evidence that its writers were men of integrity and honesty. And when they touch on matters related to science, their words are accurate and completely free from ancient "scientific" theories that turned out to be mere myths. Science is thus no enemy of the Bible. There is every reason to weigh what the Bible says with an open mind...

The only thing you've proven is that supporters of the bible constantly lie through their teeth.

The bible contains so much false information that there's no possible way you could think that an ominscient being had wriitten it. Grade school research papers tend to be more accurate in scientific matters.

Persocom01

Persocom01

Seeker of the Truth

Quote by PlunkiesHey what a great question! Does it? My guess is no....

Quote: What Is the Shape of the Earth?

1 Chronicles 16:30: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable."

Psalm 93:1: "Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ..."

Psalm 96:10: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ..."

Psalm 104:5: "Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken."

Isaiah 45:18: "...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast..."

(shamayim means dome in hebrew)

ob 9:8, "...who by himself spread out the heavens [shamayim]..."

Psalm 19:1, "The heavens [shamayim] tell out the glory of God, the vault of heaven [raqiya] reveals his handiwork."

Psalm 102:25, "...the heavens [shamayim] were thy handiwork."

Isaiah 45:12, "I, with my own hands, stretched out the heavens [shamayim] and caused all their host to shine..."

Isaiah 48:13, "...with my right hand I formed the expanse of the sky [shamayim]..."

Daniel 4:10-11, "...saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds."

Matthew 4:8, "Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world [cosmos] in their glory."

Revelation 1:7: "Behold, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye shall see him..."

Revelation 6:13-16: "...the stars in the sky fell to the earth, like figs shaken down by a gale; the sky vanished, as a scroll is rolled up...they called out to the mountains and the crags, Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One who sits on the throne..."

"From their geographical and historical context, one would expect the ancient Hebrews to have a flat-earth cosmology. Indeed, from the very beginning, ultra-orthodox Christians have been flat-earthers, arguing that to believe otherwise is to deny the literal truth of the Bible. The flat-earth implications of the Bible were rediscovered and popularized by English-speaking Christians in the mid-19th century. Liberal scriptural scholars later derived the same view. Thus, students with remarkably disparate points of view independently concluded that the ancient Hebrews had a flat-earth cosmology, often deriving this view from scripture alone. Their conclusions were dramatically confirmed by the rediscovery of 1 Enoch."

In further detail....

It is not true that a flat earth was the official Christian viewpoint.

"A few early Christian writers questioned or even opposed the sphericity of the Earth on theological grounds, but these writers are not thought to have been influential in the Middle Ages due to a scarcity of references to their work in medieval writings...

...There is evidence that the spherical Earth was accepted by many Christians. For example, Emperor Theodosius II of the Byzantine Empire placed the globus cruciger (which depicts Earth as round) on his coins." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_earth

"Christianity has often been held responsible for promoting the flat Earth theory. Yet, it was only a handful of so-called intellectual scholars throughout the centuries, claiming to represent the Church, who held to a flat Earth. Most of these were ignored by the Church, yet somehow their writings made it into early history books as being the 'official Christian viewpoint'." - http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c034.html

And the Bible is translated from Hebrew, who in the past lacked scientific terminology used to describe things today. While some verses can be interpreted to give a false cosmology, they can also be interpreted not to. Moreover, 1 Enoch is not a book in the Bible.

"A rather common accusation made against the Bible in skeptical circles is that it teaches a view that promulgates a "flat earth" and contains other primitive cosmological/natural data like a solid, domed sky. Here we will have a look at some of the verses commonly used to assert this position.

We begin with a bit of groundwork. It should be understood that the Hebrews, like all ANE cultures, obviously lacked the scientific terminology we use to describe things today. We should not expect descriptions of "tectonic plates" or of "molten lava". On a lesser scale, we will find that the Hebrews lacked key words which would have been most useful in describing cosmological phenomena." - http://www.tektonics.org/af/earthshape.html

Quote by PlunkiesThe only thing you've proven is that supporters of the bible constantly lie through their teeth.

The bible contains so much false information that there's no possible way you could think that an ominscient being had wriitten it. Grade school research papers tend to be more accurate in scientific matters.

I don't believe you, Plunkies, because if anything, you've been proven to lie through your teeth on many issues and can be seen twisting plain facts in...for the believers!

Leonne

Leonne

dfiler of soulz

How We Can Know There Is a God?
isn't enough that were alive and have a life of our own?


dinogirl

Zoey

Just Trust and he will look after you.

Quote by Persocom01
And the Bible is translated from Hebrew, who in the past lacked scientific terminology used to describe things today. While some verses can be interpreted to give a false cosmology, they can also be interpreted not to. Moreover, 1 Enoch is not a book in the Bible.

So what if it isn't canon? It doesn't make it any less significant. Priests chose the books of the "official" bible to fit their own ideology, it has nothing to do with the "words of god". It was one of the books of the bible that was meant to be scientific and it did a predictably poor job of it. Like the typical christian you ignore any aspect of the bible, of your religion, of your history and of science that isn't convenient for you.

"There is little doubt that 1 Enoch was influential in molding New Testament doctrines concerning the nature of the Messiah, the Son of Man, the messianic kingdom, demonology, the future, resurrection, final judgment, the whole eschatological theater, and symbolism. No wonder, therefore, that the book was highly regarded by many of the apostolic and Church Fathers "

Quote: We begin with a bit of groundwork. It should be understood that the Hebrews, like all ANE cultures, obviously lacked the scientific terminology we use to describe things today. We should not expect descriptions of "tectonic plates" or of "molten lava". On a lesser scale, we will find that the Hebrews lacked key words which would have been most useful in describing cosmological phenomena." - http://www.tektonics.org/af/earthshape.html

Did you even read the link? Oh silly me of course you didn't. You never do.

Quote: I don't believe you, Plunkies, because if anything, you've been proven to lie through your teeth on many issues and can be seen twisting plain facts in...for the believers!

Where? Point to exactly where I'm lying.

Persocom01

Persocom01

Seeker of the Truth

Quote by PlunkiesSo what if it isn't canon? It doesn't make it any less significant. Priests chose the books of the "official" bible to fit their own ideology, it has nothing to do with the "words of god". It was one of the books of the bible that was meant to be scientific and it did a predictably poor job of it. Like the typical christian you ignore any aspect of the bible, of your religion, of your history and of science that isn't convenient for you.

"There is little doubt that 1 Enoch was influential in molding New Testament doctrines concerning the nature of the Messiah, the Son of Man, the messianic kingdom, demonology, the future, resurrection, final judgment, the whole eschatological theater, and symbolism. No wonder, therefore, that the book was highly regarded by many of the apostolic and Church Fathers "

Did you even read the link? Oh silly me of course you didn't. You never do.

Where? Point to exactly where I'm lying.

"Oh silly me of course you didn't. You never do." - Plunkies

There. That is a lie. You often make assertions you cannot prove/twist facts to "prove". In ...for the believers! fellow Mter Mnemeth testifies:

Quote by PlunkiesInteresting theory but can you prove it. Unless you are someone who believes their life has no value how would that apply?...

...Thats quite the wide brush you are painting with (to use the analogy) as I am sure you realize....

...So I'd think a little before making a statement like that again.

I have read the link, all of it, before. Mind you I am very interestered in contradictary interpretations of the Bible. And it does matter that it isn't canon. We believe that the choosing of the Books of the Bible are divinely guided. The book's exclusion from the Bible bears witness against the statement "No wonder, therefore, that the book was highly regarded by many of the apostolic and Church Fathers" as general truth. Afterall, if it was so highly regarded/accepted as truth, why isn't it in the Bible? Other referances: http://www.carm.org/diff/Jude14.htm

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:" - Revelation 22:18

"Rev 22:18-19 - I testify to every one, &c. - From the fulness of his heart, the apostle utters this testimony, this weighty admonition, not only to the churches of Asia, but to all who should ever hear this book. He that adds, all the plagues shall be added to him; he that takes from it, all the blessings shall be taken from him; and, doubtless, this guilt is incurred by all those who lay hinderances in the way of the faithful, which prevent them from hearing their Lord's "I come," and answering, "Come, Lord Jesus." This may likewise be considered as an awful sanction, given to the whole New Testament; in like manner as Moses guarded the law, Deu_4:2, and Deu_12:32; and as God himself did, Mal_4:4, in closing the canon of the Old Testament." - John Wesley's Expanatory Notes

Revelation 22:18 can even been seen as God's curse to any man who adds or removes books/words in the Bible.

SebastianvonKane

SebastianvonKane

Omniversal lone traveler

You can't.
Is all faith-based believing.
If you have no faith, everything is vain cause you'll die, as all of us will.

"You have a job to do, and so do I. Yours is to sell socks and suspenders. Mine is to cross-examine people like you and crush them".

Nubes

Nubes

Blah blah blah!!!

believe it or not... Atheist believe in God... no your God... and not with that name... Our god is call Life... and for that reason i know we livin, i know there's a God or even a Goddess who let us know there's always a miracle... becuz look at us, breathing, dreaming, living...

that's proof enough to let me know that there's someone, something bigger than us.

CyberDragoon

The Prince of Nothing

Quote by Nubesbelieve it or not... Atheist believe in God...

wtf Atheists don't believe in God. That's crazy talk. That's like saying nihilists think that humans have a purpose in life. Notice the root words A- meaning not and -theist believer of a supreme diety(s).

RubyDrg0n

Wanna-be-Drg0n

haha
I will say alot of ppl "symbolize" too much, they think artheist believing in the nature of occurance of the world a belief of GoD...heh

GoD in my definition--- symbologically some sort of humaniod being with believers which has human emotions and tons of parody and lotsa power(according to believers)

It become such a confusion to other religions and matter of thoughts that, I dun think the word GoD should be used to define deity or higher beings or something else...

*sigh- why in the world to ppl have to think that there must be something greater with a human mind and thinks human and can be influence by human means to exist...

If a Deity that controls the world exist in the world, i doubt human emotions, i doubt contacts of humans with it, i even doubt a sentient mind or self-acknowledgement. Then that deity is worth supporting, but then praying is futile then, isn't it? heh

20 cents

btw, DarkIngram, isn't it time to stop posting quotes and write something on your own? If u honour your god so much, wont God's words be much better to be correctly translated through the words of his own follower and correctly understood instead of being used so much but the follower's understanding unknown?

Hey Darkingram, i haven't been on MT in about 6 months and when i came back on my notifications were stacked, but i noticed you had a lot of threads about god.
I was christian with my family, i never really knew much about it or why. then one of my deeply devoted christian friends got me into it a bit more and i read the bible. i was really into it at first. but then i did some personal develpment courses and began to grow and experience life. I also asked these questions that you ask.
i asked for the meaning of life. and then someone asked me why i needed a meaning. and i thought about it.
We humans seem to need a meaning for everything.
so after that i threw away my questions and became an aethiest. since then i've been developing myself spiritually in my own way,
i'm kinda in between Budhism and my own strange beliefs. i do not directly believe in God, but i do believe in a higher power/spirit

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