Critiquing, do you have to be Pro?

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Devilet

Devilet

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Alright, I'm bringing this up because some people don't know how to take things on a mature manner, or I'm wondering if it's just me.

I've reviewed very thoroughly some people's wallpapers or art here in MiniTokyo. It seems some take it very offensively if you don't say it's lovely and cute, all that, fav. Apparently I have to be "better" than them OR a Pro in order to say my opinions, or point out flaws.

Do you personally think that in order to review one's work you must be better than them? Why is it that I've ask my mom who can't draw for her life is my drawing good? It doesn't matter to me, I enjoy both good and bad comments regardless who it's coming from.

embershadow

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I think that a good eye for details and aesthetics (and thus critiquing) is not always the same as being able to actually draw... it would definitely give more weight to your critiques if you were better/more experienced than the person you were critiquing, because then they would be able to say "Wow, they really know what they're talking about," but for me, it doesn't matter so much who the critique is coming from as much as if it's a good critique, not just "omg that is such a good wallpaper I'll add it to my favs right now" or "it sucks". Those kinds of comments are kind of pointless... although I won't deny that I'm not shallow enough that the former doesn't give me a (small) self-esteem bost. =P

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TrigunPreacherGirl

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As embershadow pointed out, you have to have a good eye for drawing; it's good that the critiques you give are thourough-it shows you take the time to study both the good and bad points of a drawing; I think the reason people/members get offended is that they either have: 1) A severely overblown idea of how good/bad their art is, and expect everyone to see it their way, or, 2) They can't handle a mature, balanced critique, and in retaliation, reply with an immature insult of their own (These two actually, I think, go hand-in-hand).
Interesting idea, quite truthful, and thank you for bringing this up!
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  • Jul 26, 2006

AWOL

AWOL

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The worst part of a critic if he doesn't know how to do it properly.
I've seen too many people who are like that already.

Art is something which you can't please everyone with; but its the artist's duty to make the majority like his work so that they give good feedback.

But of course, it would be better to have a professional do the judging since experience and knowledge of various styles will help the artist get better.

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Even though we've been through this, I'll give my opinion again anyways. ^ ^

You know, I've looked at the other posts, and to be 'politically' correct, I suppose you would actually receive a better post from someone who is more advanced than yourself in whatever your doing, but that's just generally obvious.

But I don't think that always applies, I don't know if my example is going to hit the mark, or at the least explain what i'm trying to get to, but for instance:
Ebert and Roper, the two most renown movie critics of all time criticize movies, day in and day out, and they're made a career out of it. But I'm pretty sure the fact is, that neither one of them could or ever have created movies, never the less movies of higher caliber than those in which they have seen. But, they've seen so many, that they've developed a good eye for them, and many people think very highly of their criticisms, same as many creators. So I guess what i'm getting at is you don't necessarily have to have been in the industry or done whatever it is that your criticizing, to have a worthwhile opinion on it. Now apply that example to this, Assuming that it made the point that I intended it to, If it didn't sorry about that. x_x

Anyhoo, I believe I've made my point clear, that I don't necessarily think it makes a difference what the person knows, as long as the criticism is worthwhile.
But even if it isn't, it's always interesting to see what people decide to say.

Hope I made myself understandable.
~narutofan

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Devilet

Devilet

~ cyNicaLDeviL ~

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Okay, I'm not going to quote everything people said, then my post would be way too big. But as I'm getting from both embershadow and trigunpreachergirl, you guys seem to be saying as long as you have a good eye for seeing things in drawings, but it's more if someone who's a professional who reviews it. Then it's because they know what they're talking about. I agree with this point, because I know I never minded hearing from someone advanced from me, and I needed such rough opinions to improve my work. While this being said; I think everyone needs to understand that if something is blurry or jagged, it doesn't take a genius to see that. I've been working in 3D for quite a while now, so my sense of looking at things is more technical than before, this is why I guess my reviews were very thorough ...

Okay, onto another point

Quote by embershadowit doesn't matter so much who the critique is coming from as much as if it's a good critique, not just "omg that is such a good wallpaper I'll add it to my favs right now" or "it sucks". Those kinds of comments are kind of pointless... although I won't deny that I'm not shallow enough that the former doesn't give me a (small) self-esteem bost. =P

Hahaa, I know how such small praise can really give a self-esteem boost. But this isn't the point, those comments will not get you anywhere. I usually filter out all the praise and focus on the bad .. because I know my work isn't perfect. Such comments like "it sucks" is not allowed on MT, so notify a mod if you see it xD okay?

Quote by TrigunPreacherGirlI think the reason people/members get offended is that they either have: 1) A severely overblown idea of how good/bad their art is, and expect everyone to see it their way, or, 2) They can't handle a mature, balanced critique, and in retaliation, reply with an immature insult of their own (These two actually, I think, go hand-in-hand).

Yes, those might very well be for them acting bad. Personally I think they're spoiled if they act that way. Too many people have been saying "very nice, fav" or "I love it!", if this is the case, I don't think they realize how much they need to improve. I'm not saying they suck, because they don't, everyone has to start somewhere .. Those people who just fav and whatever, I honestly don't think they look at it very long, or download it in full. Haaha, I have yet to see a really good artist I know who thinks they're work is the bomb ... No good artist that I'm aqquainted with thinks their work is great .. That's just how we are.

Quote by AWOL The worst part of a critic if he doesn't know how to do it properly.
I've seen too many people who are like that already.

Art is something which you can't please everyone with; but its the artist's duty to make the majority like his work so that they give good feedback.

But of course, it would be better to have a professional do the judging since experience and knowledge of various styles will help the artist get better.

Some very good points here you brought up ^^ Yes, a good critic has to be done properly, but I always find good in a piece of art to praise them about, and I never word it very offensively, nothing like "I have no idea why you put this crap here, it looks stupid" .. That just insults them for sure .. and every artist has a different vision than anyone else sees, it may have a story behind it that I can't see.

Yes, this is what no one seems to understand. Not everyone likes sparkly wallpapers, grunge style, abstract. The majority is merely the criteria of people here, unfortunately, most just like a cute+sparkles+water scene. Either way, only some have proven to pull this type off and not make seem clichÃ���Ã��Ã

MapleRose

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Well, everyone likes to hear compliments, especially if they've worked hard on it. But I think constructive criticism is more valuable, if you're willing to take it and listen. I guess sometimes it is a little hard to take, when people point out your mistakes, especially if that person isn't "advanced as you are", you can feel a bit indignant.

I guess I don't really mind who nitpicks at my work, as long as they give a good reason as to why they think there's a mistake, instead of saying "it sucks" or "I don't like it". I want to know why. And I find chances are, when people point out things wrong with my art, these are things that I already know are wrong, sometimes subconsciously.

What I don't like is when people comment on my art saying they don't like it because of the character I've drawn, instead of looking at the technical aspects of things.

When I critic, I usually comment on what I like about the piece first, and what they're doing right, before going on to pointing out the mistakes. And even so, I try to do it gently, because I know it doesn't feel good to have you mistakes pointed out so bluntly.

kuroimisa

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kuroimisa

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I get extremely frustrated- mostly in the Sandbox, because people post their wallpapers up there to get criticism. Whether or not they want to take the criticism on board and explore (yes exploration is important) is completely up to them and is completely harmless. However I've been getting really... weak replies in the sense that I have written this long critique (usually aimed at the wallpaper directly, where, what, why, how to fix it and including the basics of the Minitokyo gallery submission criteria requirements) and replies I get (examples of course, not really the real thing):

- my wallpaper is artistic.
- I like it this way.

I don't understand why some people won't just try out some suggestions. If it looks bad, or don't like it, just hit the undo button. It's that simple. And yet people aren't very willing to explore.

Most of the comments I get now are kinda decent (that's because I became extremely picky with comments at one stage) but there was a time when there were just comments that made me go "huh?" Some might write "nice! try another texture".
Uh... what's wrong with the texture now? Especially when I carefully picked it- and in most cases it wasn't even a texture and it was actually grunge XD It's really frustrating. I then got into the habit of then replying to those posts demanding an explanation why... and funnily enough, I never really got many replies.

Another thing that annoys me is the commenting on the scan rather than anything else, when it should be how the background was created in relation to the scan. "WOW SASUKE <3!" (sorry I don't even *know* who Sasuke is, but I've seen so many comments... it just stuck to me XD) "+FAV!" ... it's kinda sad, because well... the scan was probably one of the elements in the wallpaper not done by the artist (unless it was heavily modified or vectored). In one of my most complex wallpapers I was praised on having good extraction when I actually vectored it from scratch. Sometimes it is a set back when gallery descriptions aren't being read :\

Do you have to be a pro to critique?
Not really. You need to have basic knowledge of quality (extraction), composition (focal points) and an overall sense of colour/ expression appreciation, but otherwise you don't really need skills as such.

Well, the only thing we can do as commenters is to keep a clear mind. Continue writing good quality comments that are concise and are useful- hopefully more people will follow the example and some day, good comments will be very much appreciated :)

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Summer67

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People are all on different levels here. There's ameteurs and there's pros.

There's also personal taste. I happen to like vibrant, rich colors, where someone may think a submission is too dark, or not pastel enough for them. It's not really fair to say it "sucks" just because pastel is preferred. That's one person's opinion, and may not be the general majority's opinion.

That one person may think they are right, and everyone else is wrong. But, instead of writing something mean, as mentioned by MapleRose, there's constructive critisism. A right way to say things, and a wrong.

Instead of saying "It Sucks!"
Try saying, " Personally, it didn't appeal to me, because, I thought it was blurry. Next time, if you want my advice, try this link or procedure... " (for example)

Nothing wrong with being helpful, since this is a learning experience for a lot here. Not everyone is pros, so they will not be able to produce work like pros.

It's just more polite and respectful to comment to someone on their own level and not your own, especially if the person is a higher level. So, giving advice is very helpful, and helps a person to grow stronger in confidence, and in their abilities.

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it's all on opinion really. I'm not good at being a critic because I'm not very skilled in computer related art. I'm much better when it's drawn with pencil or paints...so I normally just say "it's good" or "beautiful" but don't add anything. I'm not a big fan of computer made art but it's still art yeah?

  • Aug 01, 2006
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Well as long as it's constructive criticism, I really have no problem about people seriously reviewing my work. I think MapleRose sums up my feelings on the topic nicely. I'm generally very open minded to suggestions as long as I feel they have reasoning behind it. Sometimes it's just that because drawing experience/ability is strongly associated with the skill to critique, you have these preconceptions that the opinions of people that aren't as good as you should be weighted less.

But I guess that the problem lies in the fact that alot of people parade their pieces in hope of simply fishing for compliments. I've noticed that alot, when the artist responds negatively to criticism, which makes you think how shallow they are. Do they really think that they are capable of no fault? It's also just as rude when they ignore your comment altogether.

Anyways, interesting topic. I'm sure there are alot of people who would appreciate your critique.

  • Aug 01, 2006

Devilet

Devilet

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Quote by MapleRoseWell, everyone likes to hear compliments, especially if they've worked hard on it. But I think constructive criticism is more valuable, if you're willing to take it and listen. I guess sometimes it is a little hard to take, when people point out your mistakes, especially if that person isn't "advanced as you are", you can feel a bit indignant.

Yes, everyone does love compliments ... It gives them a boost. But some members ONLY want compliments, as soon as you point out a mistake they get annoyed. But they should expect such replies when submitting work here seriously. I only wished people would take constructive criticism more, I've seen you comment on people's walls, you're doing it the right way.

Quote by Kuroimisa I get extremely frustrated- mostly in the Sandbox, because people post their wallpapers up there to get criticism. Whether or not they want to take the criticism on board and explore (yes exploration is important) is completely up to them and is completely harmless. However I've been getting really... weak replies in the sense that I have written this long critique (usually aimed at the wallpaper directly, where, what, why, how to fix it and including the basics of the Minitokyo gallery submission criteria requirements) and replies I get (examples of course, not really the real thing):

- my wallpaper is artistic.
- I like it this way.

I don't understand why some people won't just try out some suggestions. If it looks bad, or don't like it, just hit the undo button. It's that simple. And yet people aren't very willing to explore.

This what I never understood ... The sandbox is for improving, they should really try out what you're suggesting. I mean, the whole point is to get criticism in that Forum, and they posted their work there. They're so closed minded, I don't know why they would post a wallpaper there if they're not going to take anyone's suggestions.

Quote by KuroimisaAnother thing that annoys me is the commenting on the scan rather than anything else, when it should be how the background was created in relation to the scan. "WOW SASUKE <3!" (sorry I don't even *know* who Sasuke is, but I've seen so many comments... it just stuck to me XD) "+FAV!" ... it's kinda sad, because well... the scan was probably one of the elements in the wallpaper not done by the artist (unless it was heavily modified or vectored). In one of my most complex wallpapers I was praised on having good extraction when I actually vectored it from scratch. Sometimes it is a set back when gallery descriptions aren't being read :\

I noticed this too actually, they seem to just fav it because of the character. Even if it's a lower quality wallpaper, and NO ONE ever reads the little blurb the submitter writes ... It really annoys me, they say "oh, the scan .. blah blah", when the artist mentions it's a vector ... Really frustrating how lazy they are to take the few seconds or minute to read.

Quote by Summer67It's just more polite and respectful to comment to someone on their own level and not your own, especially if the person is a higher level. So, giving advice is very helpful, and helps a person to grow stronger in confidence, and in their abilities.

How is it more polite? There is no such thing is bad art really ... As you were talking about before it's all about personal preference. The majority here like bright and vibrant walls with sparkles, look at the "Popular Art". It's polite to give a comment that's respectful ... It shouldn't matter if one's higher in skills or not.

Quote by chore-boyit's all on opinion really. I'm not good at being a critic because I'm not very skilled in computer related art. I'm much better when it's drawn with pencil or paints...so I normally just say "it's good" or "beautiful" but don't add anything. I'm not a big fan of computer made art but it's still art yeah?


That's more like spamming, you might aswell just fav it, or come up with more elaborate comments.

Quote by venicequeenBut I guess that the problem lies in the fact that alot of people parade their pieces in hope of simply fishing for compliments. I've noticed that alot, when the artist responds negatively to criticism, which makes you think how shallow they are. Do they really think that they are capable of no fault? It's also just as rude when they ignore your comment altogether.

I just thought of something while reading this part ... It seems that MOST people here, will actually go around and post in people's guestbook a pic that says "thanks for the fav" .. Sometimes even as far as "thanks for the fav/comment". But if someone writes some faults out in a long constructive comment, they won't even bother replying back to you. It's a real waste of time, these members just want favs, they're happy with just that.

fluke

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Quote by Devilet
I just thought of something while reading this part ... It seems that MOST people here, will actually go around and post in people's guestbook a pic that says "thanks for the fav" .. Sometimes even as far as "thanks for the fav/comment". But if someone writes some faults out in a long constructive comment, they won't even bother replying back to you. It's a real waste of time, these members just want favs, they're happy with just that.

I kind of look for that myself, meaning if someone takes the time out to write something real on one of my vectors of few wallpapers that I have, I try to touch back on them to appreciate them for taking the time to critique it. Also on the same note, when I leave a comment of detail on someone's work, I always wait around hoping to hear from them saying something in return, be it thanks or whatever. 9 out of 10 times I never hear from them :P .

As like some of the other members aid already, you don't have to be able to create great art to critique it. I know what I like certainly and so do other people, so everyone has their own opinions...take em or leave em.

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First, I would like to say that I don't comment very often (yes, that's bad I know). It just I can't bring me to write some extended review that some seem to expect... and that I'm completely unable to make since I am not an artist and haven't got a clue what manipulations someone has to do to improve. In the other hand, I dislike too just writting "I like it. Great wall"... too often (I haven't probably the fondest memory of these english exercices where you have to talk about pics).

But I think a mix of reviews is good since noone need to be a pro to notice some things. Isn't it nice to have some professionnal reviews but also other that just stress a more general feeling. Just like people can just enjoy or not a song without being able to sing.

That's probably why the rare times I write a comment, I just say what I did like or not, what I think seems weird but I always try stress that's my opinion, not a fact set in stone... except if there are really some facts.

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  • Aug 01, 2006

ShadowWraith

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One must remember that art is entirely subjective (Case and point: Piccasso) so what looks to one person may look really bad to another person. So even though the artist may think their art is coolest thing since duck tape someone else may think it sucks like a Hoover.

You also don't need to be a pro to critique someone's work. Critique, like art, is entirely subjective. What someone thinks needs improvement someone else might think looks really cool (again Piccasso comes to mind).

The bottom line is that when someone critiques something it isn't the last word in quality and what the artist decides to do with that critique is entirely up to them. They can take it as a chance to improve, look at new aspects of art they never thought of, ignore it, or in some cases act like it's a stab at their pride, dignity or whatever. In that case they get upset and post immature comments.

So in those cases this is my policy:

AHEM *clears throat*

HAHAHAHA! You're a moron, that's funny :) Now get lost -_- (end of policy)

That's my take on the situation :D

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  • Aug 13, 2006

ShrinkNerv4Eva

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I don't believe that you have to be an expert of a fellow wallpaper maker to make a critique. My Modern European History teacher told us that you do not have to be an author to right a book report or give your honest opinion, you just have to be intelligent. If the medium is aimed at you, you have a right to critique it, regardless of whether it's a wallpaper or a book.

To make a good critique I believe you have to be iintelligent and well versed in the medium; in this case, just getting a lot of wallpapers and figuring out what is good and bad.

  • Aug 14, 2006

Schindler

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I dont think you need to be better than the one you are criticing, if you think this way you will make lots of mistakes and start being selfish, till the day you are like one of the children that were mad at you when they were criticized. Even if the guy criticizing hasnt the sensibility to say what he wants without hurting you can get the good point, of course everything everybody says need to be filtred.
But I think you need to be known by the people from the comunity to criticize someone or by the one that you are criticizing, that's what I do, you wont ever see me criticizing anybody here at MT, but I have friends who are really good artists that asks my opinion every time they are trying to do something :P I'm nobody here and I dont have the time to make anything on corel nor photoshop.

That's my point of view not only for art, but to everything in life, every human being has his own way to see the world and what happens on it, there is no better way to improve your skills than hearing what many people have to say and work on it.

  • Jan 16, 2007

etoo

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as long as the person who's critiquing actually says what he/she likes/dislikes about my art or wallpapers, i don't mind.... the person doesn't have to be a pro or more tallented.... you can apreciate drawings/paintings even if you can't draw a straight line... the same with wallies... not everybody has tallent, but that doesn't mean they don't have tastes and opinions...

Jai-cie-tea

Jai-cie-tea

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No, because you don't have to be a Master Chef to say a dish tastes digusting xD

They are just saying it to make themselves feel better...

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Well a professional point of view is always well appreciated, BUT everyone has his point of view, if you say a contructive critic is ok (what is a contructive critic? ahhh welll like, "in my personal opinion, you need more practice with hands cause they dont look too real" or "hmm you need more job separating the draging from his original background to paste it there, it still looks like you took it from other side" etc etc... only ovid thinks like "your drawing sucks" or "you can use photoshop" that just a commentary with nothing to help the creator of the wall...

  • Feb 11, 2007

starrliteangel

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you know, this is an awesome topic. Ive had the same problem, both as the critiquer and as the person being critiqued. people saying "OMG THIS IS SOO FREAKING AWESOME PRETTY LOVELY CUTE +FAV" can seriously be the most annoying people ever. first of all, you get absolutely nothing out of it. nope, I dont think i even get self esteem out of that because the person commenting obviously has absolutely no idea about what they are saying..how can you get self esteem out of something that doesnt mean anything? lol. So for me, it doesnt matter whether the commenter is a pro or not as long as they can give a sensible critique. Ive learned that critiquing is also a way to help yourself become a better artist. looking for flaws and good concepts in other people's pieces of art really helps when you make your own artwork.

gosh, and I am so totally sick of those people that get extraordinarily pissed off if you dont compliment their wallpaper. they just dont seem to understand that critiques help them get better. ive been having a problem (not a visible one, although one of my friends is having a visible one) with one waller on MT for a while now, and all she/he (lol not pointing out the sex either cuz i dont want any problems) does is want compliments. Ive tried giving critiques that I really think would help out the waller, but she/he just doesnt seem to want to accept them and keeps making excuses (arghghghg nothing is worse than a waller making excuses for their work!)...talk about a huge EGO! geez. -_-
i think this whole problem comes from the fact that there are too many artists with more pride than artistic skills. (not denying that i might be one because sometimes I do get worried that I sound a bit egoistic? I try my best not to XD)

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crsg

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I think you have to know enough about drawing to offer a detailed opinion about it, but that doesn't mean you have to be a pro... just that you have to have had some kind of experience.

But to offer any opinion at all, even if its only "I really like that" or "that picture looks really cute", well, anyone can do that. You don't need to be a pro to say that you like something. Its like reading a book - you don't need to be a trained book reviewer to say whether or not you enjoyed reading it.

ASH-Hikari

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I certainly don't think that to critique someone's work you have to be "better than them". Just because maybe someone can't work a certain program as well or carry out their ideas on a canvas as well, it doesn't mean they don't have a perfectly fine sense of style or what not....I appreciate the harsh comments because that's how my wallie is gonna get better, right? If everyone just tells me it's great and they love it then I won't get any better. The people who take the time to analyze the wall and point out it's flaws and what could be changed...those are the comments I really appreciate. And anyone, regardless of how well they can Photoshop, is able to give their opinion.

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With the amateur doujin we have here in MT, you certainly do not have to be able to draw well to be "allowed" to criticize someone's artwork. The techniques most employ to draw are not of the standard that requires complex understanding of art. Not to be mean here. I'm a scribbler myself.

Of course there are things that you should avoid criticizing. Like stylistic aspects of a drawing. Shoo, people who criticize style.

But symmetry, balance. Come on, anybody can point out a disproportioned limb or nose.

& go Devilet. Artists really need more critique. Some people even tell you off for offering constructive criticism.

Just because an artwork is highlighted doesn't mean it's put on a pedestal beyond criticism. Deserving of praise, sure. But don't you think that any suggestions can potentially help the artist improve & produce work of an even higher standard?

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