Why Christmas Is Not for Christians?

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DarkIngram

DarkIngram

Urzu 7

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Maybe, most of you celebrate Christmas? ^_^' as a true Christian, we don't celebrate it...

Christmas--Is It Christian?
Christmas is widely accepted as a Christian celebration by the churches throughout the world. It is observed by hundreds of millions of people...

However, is it truly Christian? Was it of divine origin? Did Jesus Christ or his disciples establish the celebration? Was December 25 the birth date of Jesus? And does it matter whether a person celebrates it or not?

The Bible does not tell us when Jesus was born. However, it does give us sound reason to conclude that his birth did not take place in December... :D

Consider the weather conditions at that time of the year in Betlehem, where Jesus was born. The Jewish month of Chislev (corresponding to November/December) was a month with cold and rainy weather. The month after that was Tebeth (December/January). It saw the lowest temperatures of the year, with occasional snows in the highlands. Let us see what the Bible tels us about the climate of that region...

The Bible writer Ezra shows that Chislev was indeed a month known for cold and rainy weather. After stating that a crowd had gathered in Jerusalem "in the month [Chislev] on the twentieth day of the month," Ezra reports that people were "shivering . . . on account of the showers of rain." Concerning weather conditions at that time of the year, the congregated people themselves said: "It is the season of showers of rain, and it is not possible to stand outside." (Ezra 10:9, 13; Jeremiah 36:22) No wonder shepherds living in that part of the world made sure that they and their flocks were no longer out of doors at night when December came around!

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/6137/xmasru3.jpg
The fact that shepherds were out all night with their flocks is evidence that Christ could not have been born in December

The Bible reports, however, that shepherds were in the fields tending their flocks on the night of Jesus' birth. In fact, the Bible writer Luke shows at that time, shepherds were "living out of doors and keeping watches in the night over their flocks" near Betlehem. (Luke 2:8-12) Notice that the shepherds were actually living out of doors, not just strolling outside during the day. They had their flocks in the fields at night. Does that description of outdoor living fit the chilly and rainy weather conditions of Betlehem in December? No, it does not. So the circumstances surrounding Jesus' birth indicate that he was not born in December...

Was Christmas of Divine Origin? :\
Regarding the origin of Christmas and the day of Christ's birth, note the following comments from religious and historical sources:

"Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church."--The Catholic Encyclopedia.

"The first mention of the celebration of Christmas occurred in A.D. 336 in an early Roman calendar."--The World Book Encyclopedia.

"The observance of Christmas is not of divine appointment, nor is it of N[ew] T[estament] origin. The day of Christ's birth cannot be ascertained from the N. T., or, indeed, from any other source. The fathers of the first three centuries do not speak of any special observance of the nativity."--Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, by McClintock and Strong.

"Inexplicable though it seems, the date of Christ's birth is not known. The Gospels indicate neither the day nor the month."--New Catholic Encyclopedia.

If Christmas were important for Christians, would not Jesus or his disciples have mentioned it? Also, the Bible tells us: "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial . . . that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16, 17) If Christmas were of divine origin, would not God have inspired the Bible writers to say something about it so that Christians could be "completely equipped for every good work"?

The Bible ignores Christmas because it is not a Christian doctrine or practice. It is not of divine origin. As the Sri Lankan Daily News observed: "It is quite significant to note that nowhere in the New Testament was a special day called Christmas set apart to celebrate the birth of Christ. . . . Christmas is of human origin. Christmas is not a part of the Bible."

Jesus Not Born on December 25
Regarding the date December 25 given for the birth of Jesus, there is no evidence to indicate that this is correct. The evidence shows otherwise...

In the book Celebrations, by Robert J. Myers, we read: "The Biblical narrative of the birth of Jesus contains no indication of the date that the event occurred. However, Luke's report [Luke 2:8] that the shepherds were 'abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flocks by night' suggests that Jesus may have been born in summer or early fall. Since December is cold and rainy in Judea, it is likely the shepherds would have sought shelter for their flocks at night."

In Daily Life in the Time of Jesus, by Henri Daniel-Rops, we are similarly told: "The flocks . . . passed the winter under cover; and from this alone it may be seen that the traditional date for Christmas, in the winter, is unlikely to be right, since the Gospel says that the shepherds were in the fields."

The Encyclopedia Americana says of December 25: "This date was not set in the West until about the middle of the 4th century and in the East until about a century later." Thus, Jesus was not born on that date. And he did not authorize the celebration of Christmas; neither did his disciples or the Bible writers.

Where Did It Originate?
Where, then, did Christmas originate? On this, there is general agreement. U.S. Catholic states: "It is impossible to separate Christmas from its pagan origins." It adds: "The Romans' favorite festival was Saturnalia, which began on December 17 and ended with the 'birthday of the unconquered sun' (Natalis solis invicti) on December 25. Somewhere in the second quarter of the fourth century, savvy officials of the church of Rome decided December 25 would make a dandy day to celebrate the birthday of the 'sun of righteousness.' Christmas was born."

The pagan celebration of Saturnalia took place at the winter solstice. The word "solstice" comes from two Latin words: sol (the name of a sun god) and sistere (to stop). The winter solstice is the time when the daylight hours stop getting shorter and instead begin to get longer. According to the ancient Julian calendar, the day of the winter solstice was December 25...

Thus, The World Book Encyclopedia states: "This celebration [Christmas] was probably influenced by pagan (unchristian) festivals held at that time. The ancient Romans held year-end celebrations to honor Saturn, their harvest god; and Mithras [the sun god]." The New Catholic Encyclopedia says: "On Dec. 25, 274, [Roman emperor] Aurelian had proclaimed the sun-god [Mithras] principal patron of the empire . . . Christmas originated at a time when the cult of the sun was particularly strong at Rome." The book Celebrations states: "The clergy eventually brought the . . . world of the Saturnalia into the Church itself." And the Encyclopaedia Britannica notes that December 25 was regarded "as the birth date of the . . . [sun] god Mithra."

Most of the customs associated with Christmas--the yule log, mistletoe, Christmas tree, Santa Claus, lavish gift giving, revelries--are also rooted in paganism. They have nothing to do with Christ. As James Hastings states in Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics: "Most of the Christmas customs now prevailing . . . are not genuine Christian customs, but heathen customs which have been absorbed or tolerated by the Church. . . . The Saturnalia in Rome provided the model for most of the merry customs of the Christmas time. This old Roman feast was celebrated on 17-24 December."

So when at times we hear people say: 'Let's get back to the true meaning of Christmas' or, 'Put Christ back into Christmas,' keep in mind that the original meaning of Christmas is a pagan celebration of nature, and that Christ never was in Christmas. And when some denounce the commercializing of Christmas, keep in mind that the feasting and gift giving of the Saturnalia celebration meant business for merchants. So for thousands of years, the winter solstice has been commercialized...

In 1643, England's Parliament even outlawed Christmas because of its pagan background, but later it was restored. In 1659, it was also outlawed in Massachusetts, but there too it was later restored. And U.S. Catholic reports: "Because Christians in the U.S. . . . associated Christmas with pagan customs, they didn't celebrate Christmas in a big way until the mid-19th century."

Dishonors God and Christ
Hence, those who celebrate Christmas do not honor God or Christ, but honor pagan celebrations and pagan gods. >_< And by fostering such myths as Santa Claus, they promote falsehoods. That does not honor Jesus, who taught that God must be worshiped with truth. (John 4:23, 24) Said Jesus: "If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."--John 8:31-32

God's Word also states: "What fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Belial [Satan]? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever?" The answer to those questions is that faithful Christians have nothing to do with such things; otherwise they lose God's favor. Therefore, God's Word counsels: "'Get out from among them, and separate yourselves,' says Jehovah, 'and quit touching the unclean thing'; 'and I will take you in.' . . . 'And you will be sons and daughters to me.'"--2 Corinthians 6:14-18

Real love for God has helped people break free from ungodly activities such as celebrating Christmas even though this does have an emotional appeal. :) They do not feel deprived by rejecting a practice that dishonors God and Christ, that in fact honors false gods. They recognize Christmas for what it is--a pagan holiday masquerading as Christian--and they shun it... ;)

Mnemeth

Mnemeth

Rider of the Currents

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Interesting point of view, but what about those people who do celebrate Christmas as the birthday of their saviour, regardless of the pagan origins of the celebration (which is not the only pagan event incorporated into Christianity). Does this make them wrong especially, per your statements, seeing as no one can appoint a specific time to his birth? or did the early Christians merely make use of a pagan holday to promote their beliefs (sounds insidious doesn't it)

Do not interfere in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

  • Jul 31, 2006

tobiast88

tobiast88

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Word to the idiot: who on earth cares, apart from you and your religious-nut buddies? Chistmas does not worship false gods. I don't see adults praying to Santa. Children eventually learn that Santa is a myth, just others learn later that religion is myth as well. Christmas is a general feel-good holiday, so secularized anyway that it no longer holds practically any meaning to the religious. So stop bothering people about Santa being antichrist, and go preach elsewhere. MAybe jeebus will show you the way to smite my ass for being atheist; until then you'll just be boring and pointless, and quoting from a boring and pointless (and gory) fairytale book. Bye.

"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis, Litterature Nobel Prize winner.
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DJZephyr

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Hmm, interesting points indeed, Ing, but some still recognize Christmas as a celebration of the birth of Christ, just as Easter is a memorial for his death. Just because it was started by Pagans, doesn't mean it can't be used by Christians as a time to gather and celebrate what the holiday is supposedly meant for. I'm sure God will still respect the tribute, no matter who started it.

And then there's family tradition. I'll still be sending gifts to my family this year, even if I'm half a country away and can't join them around the dinner table!


Tobiast... well... bah, best not to say a thing. Not to say I can't THINK of anything- I can- but Ing might get tee'd off if I turned this into a forums brawl.

Follow your dreams. Honor your vows. MiX iT uP.
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  • Jul 31, 2006

tobiast88

tobiast88

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How convenient that you don't want to argue, which is the point of a forum. Don't want to rebutt, prove wrong, discuss? Great for me. And anyway, almost all Religion/Science threads turn into heated discussion, so weak argument there. So until you start wanting to try to prove me wrong, don't even post about it.

"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis, Litterature Nobel Prize winner.
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I am an atheist and I celebrate Christmas...well not for the religious sense...just for the time I get to have with my family and stuff...

and tobiast I agree...religious people are bloody crazy sometimes...drives me nuts

  • Jul 31, 2006

maverickmechanic

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very good. you've done your research well.

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  • Jul 31, 2006
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News flash: 95% of Christianity was stolen from the pagans. Eating the flesh and blood of Christ? Does that sound like a pagan ritual to you? It should, because it is. Every time they stole something from pagan religions it made it that much easier to convert the pagans themselves. Even the Jesus story was taken from the pagans. Infact if you go deep into the pagan origins of christianity it becomes EXTREMELY probable the Jesus never actually existed. The story of jesus dates over 2000 years before jesus was supposedly born. Why can't you celebrate a pagan myth about jesus with a pagan holiday? If you took out every pagan thing about Christianity then you would no longer be a Christian anymore.

Ingram, talking about the pagan origins of christianity is the very last thing a fundie like youself should ever want to do.

  • Jul 31, 2006

Persocom01

Persocom01

Seeker of the Truth

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I agree with DJZephyr. Even if it was originally a pagan holiday, I think God would appreciate the tribute. Christmas promotes giving and is a time of joy, at least for me it is. If good is done in God's name, let it be done.

"And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part." - Mark 9:38-40

Other Referances: http://www.carm.org/questions/christmas.htm

  • Aug 01, 2006
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DarkIngram, I think that you are a complete tool. Did some hack youth group leader tell you to "spread the good news"? From reading your 'pamphlet' rip, you have so much more research to do.

DarkIngram

DarkIngram

Urzu 7

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Is it pleasing to God to fuse his worship with the religious beliefs and practices of those who do not worship him? The apostle Paul warned at Colossians 2:8: "Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ."

Jehovah's Witnesses refrain from sharing in Christmas celebrations. In harmony with the Scriptures, they strive to practice "the form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God," by keeping themselves "without spot from the world."--James 1:27

Through the pages of the Bible, Jehovah God has made it clear that he hates all forms of deception. (Psalm 5:6) In view of this, is it not ironic that so many features associated with Christmas smack of falsehood? For instance, think of the fairy tale about Santa Claus. Have you ever tried explaining to a child why Santa prefers entering through a chimney instead of a door, as is widely held in many lands? And how does Santa visit so many millions of homes in just one evening? What about flying reindeer? When a child learns that he has been deceived about believing that Santa is a real person, does it not undermine his trust in his parents?

The Catholic Encyclopedia plainly states: "Pagan customs . . . gravitated to Christmas." Then why do the Catholic Church and other churches of Christendom continue to perpetuate a holiday the customs of which are not of Christian origin? Does that not indicate a condoning of pagan teachings?

True Christians today do not celebrate Christmas. While their position may seem strange to others, they view traditions as did Jesus. When asked: "Why is it your disciples overstep the tradition of the men of former times?" he replied: "Why is it you also overstep the commandment of God because of your tradition?" And he added: "You have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition."--Matthew 15:2, 3, 6

Could Christ be honored by festivals originally designed for mythical gods and idolatrous worship? The Bible answers: "Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For . . . what agreement does God's temple have with idols?" (2 Corinthians 6:14-16) Dressing idolatrous festivals with a Christian name does not make them acquire harmony with Christ...

tobiast88

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Did you not read Plunkies' post, or are you just ignoring evidence again, like you always do when something is inconvenient to your absurd beliefs? Since you are terminally elective, I'll post it again:

Quote by PlunkiesNews flash: 95% of Christianity was stolen from the pagans. Eating the flesh and blood of Christ? Does that sound like a pagan ritual to you? It should, because it is. Every time they stole something from pagan religions it made it that much easier to convert the pagans themselves. Even the Jesus story was taken from the pagans. Infact if you go deep into the pagan origins of christianity it becomes EXTREMELY probable the Jesus never actually existed. The story of jesus dates over 2000 years before jesus was supposedly born. Why can't you celebrate a pagan myth about jesus with a pagan holiday? If you took out every pagan thing about Christianity then you would no longer be a Christian anymore.

Ingram, talking about the pagan origins of christianity is the very last thing a fundie like youself should ever want to do.

There. Now will you not ignore evidence and argue better than a grade schooler?

"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis, Litterature Nobel Prize winner.
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Persocom01

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Quote by DarkIngramCould Christ be honored by festivals originally designed for mythical gods and idolatrous worship? The Bible answers: "Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For . . . what agreement does God's temple have with idols?" (2 Corinthians 6:14-16) Dressing idolatrous festivals with a Christian name does not make them acquire harmony with Christ...

I have to ask the question: Can Christ be honored by a body formerly used for prostitution? And can Christ be honored by a body formerly used for idol worship? The answer is a resounding yes. If you think the answer is no, then you do not believe in redemption or forgiveness. The Bible states:

"Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit in you, whom you have of God? And you are not your own," - 1Corinthians 6:19

If God can make into his temple a body formerly defiled by adultery and idol worship, why can't he use to his glory a festival formerly dedicated to idols? I don't think Christmas is an idolatrous festival. Besides it's tendency to promote commercialism, I don't see anything wrong with it.

  • Aug 03, 2006
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Just because Christianity doesn't mention Christmas doesn't mean Christmas is bad. Christian beliefs and the church have been wrong many times before, and it has led to some truly sacriligous events, like burning suspected witches at the stake and the crusades for Jerusalem (despite being in shining armour, the knights were the BAD guys when you look at it neutrally).

Believing in God and revering him is, to me, the most important thing about religion. Be it by group or individual, anything born of man has a chance to be wrong. Christmas is simply a celebration to venerate the birth of Jesus, and Santa Claus is simply a legend that was born out of this human created event (and he originated from Saint Nicholas).

  • Aug 03, 2006

kingray100

kingray100

Ryu,the half demon

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Christmas may have started from nothing from all i know,but Christmas was originally a Christian holiday.Im not here to preach or anything but atheists piss me off!Maybe liking something besides the ultimate christianity is ok but to not have a religion is crazy!What hope do you guys have for the after life?I praise all christians and bid everyone farewell!

  • Aug 03, 2006
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Quote by kingray100Christmas may have started from nothing from all i know,but Christmas was originally a Christian holiday.

No. It was not. Even the christian fundie who started this thread knows that. If Jesus was born on Christmas he would have frozen to death. Just because you believe something it doesn't change facts. Most of christianity has pagan origins, deal with it.

Quote: Im not here to preach or anything but atheists piss me off!

Idiots piss me off.

Quote: Maybe liking something besides the ultimate christianity is ok but to not have a religion is crazy!

Yeah those atheists with their "scientific discoveries" and their "progress of humanity" crap. They should just have a different religion...like the muslims! Those guys are really on the ball.

Quote: What hope do you guys have for the after life?

There isn't one, that's the whole point.

  • Aug 03, 2006

DarkIngram

DarkIngram

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Plunkies, don't you know that 'paganism' is very different from 'Christianity'... another one, 'christendom' is also different form 'True Christians'

and tobiast, I'm not ignoring his post, you don't know how to wait...

Plunkies, Have you examined the bible? True Christians based only their beliefs on the Bible, not on mere human speculations or unsciptural traditions... as I've said, the Bible is a "Word of God" and God is not a liar...

"But let God be found true, though every man be found a liar"--Romans 3:4

False evidences is your weapon of choice... I understand your situation, but you must know that, if I'll remove the pagan beliefs in Christianity, it's good, it makes me pure Christian... just like removing pollutants in water...

Traditions that conflict with truth are like polluted water supplies. We might innocently hold fast to traditions--information, opinions, beliefs, or customs handed down from one generation to the next--that have, in fact, been contaminated by "a witch's brew" of false, misleading ideas and philosophies. Just like contaminated water, these may cause untold harm--spiritual harm...

Try to read the Bible & understand it...

Plunkies, you've a misconception about the bread & wine in "Lord's Evening Meal"... those are not "literal" flesh & blood of Christ... Btw, we have so many reasons why Jehovah's Witnesses celebrates only this occasion... I'll explain it to you & to other members about that, I'll make a thread to explain that topic... ;)
_____________

About Jesus existence...

"Evidence of Jesus Written in Stone." So proclaimed the cover of Biblical Archaeology Review (November/December 2002). That cover featured a limestone bone box, an ossuary, that was found in Israel. Ossuaries were widely used among the Jews during the brief period between the first century B.C.E. and 70 C.E. What made this one especially significant was an Aramaic inscription on one side. Scholars acknowledged its reading: "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus."

According to the Bible, Jesus of Nazareth had a brother named James who was considered a son of Joseph, the husband of Mary. When Jesus Christ taught in his hometown, the astounded audience asked: "Is this not the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us?"--Matthew 13:54-56 (Luke 4:22; John 6:42)

Yes, the inscription on the ossuary fits the description of Jesus the Nazarene. If the James mentioned in the inscription was the half brother of Jesus Christ, then it would be "the oldest extrabiblical archaeological evidence of Jesus," asserts Andre Lemaire, an authority on ancient inscriptions and the writer of the aforementioned article in Biblical Archaeology Review. Hershel Shanks, editor of the magazine, notes that the ossuary "is something tactile and visible reaching back to the single most important personage ever to walk the earth."

However, all three names readable on the inscribed ossuary were common in the first century. So it is possible that a family whose members included a James, a Joseph, and a Jesus existed apart from the family of Jesus Christ. Lemaire estimates: "In Jerusalem during the two generations before 70 C.E., there were . . . probably about 20 people who could be called 'James/Jacob son of Joseph brother of Jesus.'" Nevertheless, he feels that there is a 90-percent chance that the James on the ossuary was the half brother of Jesus Christ...

There is another factor that makes some believe that the James in the inscription was Jesus Christ's half brother. Although it was common to mention the father of the deceased in such inscriptions, it was very rare to name a brother. Therefore, some scholars believe that this Jesus must have been somebody important, causing them to think that he was Jesus Christ, the founder of Christianity...

What is an ossuary? It is a box, or chest, into which the bones of a deceased person were put after the body had decayed in a burial cave. Many ossuaries were looted from burial places around Jerusalem. The box with the James inscription emerged from the antiquities market, not from an official excavation site. The owner of the artifact is said to have bought it for a few hundred dollars in the 1970's. Thus, the origin of the ossuary is shrouded in mystery. "If you cannot say where an artifact was found and where it has been for nearly 2,000 years, you cannot pretend to draw the lines of connection between the object and the people it might mention," says Professor Bruce Chilton of Bard College, New York...

To offset the lack of archaeological background, Andre Lemaire sent the box to the Geological Survey of Israel. The researchers there verified that the ossuary was made of limestone from the first or second century C.E. They reported that "no sign of the use of a modern tool or instrument was found." Still, Bible scholars interviewed by The New York Times expressed the opinion that "the circumstantial evidence supporting a link to Jesus was possibly strong, but circumstantial nonetheless."

Time magazine commented that "almost no educated person these days doubts that Jesus lived." Still, many feel that there ought to be evidence in addition to the Bible of Jesus' existence...

Another one... asks historian Will Durant. He answers that in the first century, to deny that Christ had ever existed "seems never to have occurred even to the bitterest gentile or Jewish opponents of nascent Christianity."--The Story of Civilization,: Part III, "Caesar and Christ."

The Roman historian Suetonius (c. 69-140 C.E.), in his history The Twelve Caesars, stated regarding the emperor Claudius: "Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ], he expelled them from the city." This occurred about the year 52 C.E. (Compare Acts 18:1, 2.) Note that Suetonius expresses no doubt about the existence of Christ. On this factual basis and in spite of life-endangering persecution, early Christians were very active proclaiming their faith. It is hardly likely that they would have risked their lives on the basis of a myth. Jesus' death and resurrection had taken place in their lifetime, and some of them had been eyewitnesses to those events...

Historian Durant draws the conclusion: "That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels."

And also, the most reliable source of Jesus existence is the Christian Greek Scriputures (New Testament)

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1306/jesusos3.jpg

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/4651/jesus2pc7.jpg

http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/246/jesus3by7.jpg

Quote by falconx2000 Just because Christianity doesn't mention Christmas doesn't mean Christmas is bad. Christian beliefs and the church have been wrong many times before, and it has led to some truly sacriligous events, like burning suspected witches at the stake and the crusades for Jerusalem (despite being in shining armour, the knights were the BAD guys when you look at it neutrally).

Christendom Has Betrayed God and the Bible

People in many lands have avoided the Bible and have lacked respect for it because of the bad conduct of those who claim to follow it. In certain lands it has been said that the Bible is a book that leads to war, that it is a white man's book, and that it is a book that supports colonialism. But those are mistaken views... >_>

The Bible, written in the Middle East, does not support the colonial wars and greedy exploitation that have been carried on in the name of Christianity for such a long time. On the contrary, by reading the Bible and learning the teachings of true Christianity taught by Jesus, you will see that the Bible strongly condemns warring, immorality, and the exploiting of others. The fault lies with greedy people, not with the Bible. (1 Corinthians 13:1-6; James 4:1-3; 5:1-6; 1 John 4:7, 8) So do not let the misconduct of selfish people who live contrary to the Bible's good counsel prevent your benefiting from its treasures...

Included among those who do not live by the Bible are the peoples and nations of Christendom. "Christendom" is defined as that part of the world where Christianity prevails. It is largely the Western world with its church systems, which from about the fourth century C.E. became prominent. Christendom has had the Bible for centuries, and its clergy claim to teach it and to be God's representatives. But do the clergy and missionaries of Christendom teach the truth? Do their actions really represent God and the Bible? Does Christianity really prevail in Christendom? No. Since its religion came to the forefront in the fourth century, Christendom has proved to be an enemy of God and of the Bible. Yes, the facts of history show that Christendom has betrayed God and the Bible...

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Horus, The first Jesus?

And others....

"...here is a list of over thirty saviors who were said to have descended from heaven, taken the form of men, and furnished evidence of their divine origin by various miracles and marvelous works. Each laid the foundation for salvation, all were worshipped as Gods or sons of Gods, many were said to have been born to virgins, and many were also said to have been crucified. The list includes such figures as Chrishna of Hindostan, Budha Sakia of India, Salivahana of Bermuda, Zulis and Orus of Egypt, Odin of the Scandinavians, Crite of Chaldea, Baal and Taut of Phoenecia, Indra of Tibet, Bali of Afganistan, Jao of Nepal, Wittoba of the Bilingonese, Thammuz of Syria, Atys of Phrygia, Xamolxis of Thrace, Adad of Assyria, Deva Tat and Sammonocadam of Siam, Alcides of Thebes, Mikado of the Sintoos, Beddru of Japan, Hesus or Eros and Bremrillah of the Druids, Thor of the Gauls, Cadmus and Adonis of Greece, Hil and Feta of the Mandaites, Gentaut and Quexalcote of Mexico, Universal Monarch of the Sibyls, Ischy of the island of Formosa, Divine teacher of Plato, the Holy One of Xaca, Fohi and Tien of China, Ixion and Quirinus of Rome, Prometheus of Caucasus, Mohamud or Mahomet of Arabia..."

Pagan origins of the Christ Myth

"Life events shared by Osiris, Dionysus and Jesus
The following stories appear both in the Gospels and in the myths of many of the god-men:

Conception:

God was his father. This was believed to be literally true in the case of Osiris-Dionysus; their God came to earth and engaged in sexual intercourse with a human. The father of Jesus is God in the form of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18).
A human woman, a virgin, was his mother.

Birth:

He was born in a cave or cowshed. Luke 2:7 mentions that Jesus was placed in a manger - an eating trough for animals. One early Christian tradition said that the manger was in a cave.
His birth was prophesized by a star in the heavens.

Ministry:

At a marriage ceremony, he performed the miracle of converting water into wine.
He was powerless to perform miracles in his home town.
His followers were born-again through baptism in water.
He rode triumphantly into a city on a donkey. Tradition records that the inhabitants waved palm leaves.
He had 12 disciples.
He was accused of licentious behavior.

Execution, resurrection, etc:

He was killed near the time of the Vernal Equinox, about MAR-21.
He died "as a sacrifice for the sins of the world." 1
He was hung on a tree, stake, or cross.
After death, he descended into hell.
On the third day after his death, he returned to life.
The cave where he was laid was visited by three of his female followers
He later ascended to heaven.

His titles:

God made flesh.
Savior of the world.
Son of God.

Beliefs about the God-man:

He is "God made man," and equal to the Father.
He will return in the last days.
He will judge the human race at that time.
Humans are separated from God by original sin. The god-man's sacrificial death reunites the believer with God and atones for the original sin.

All of the Pagan myths had been circulating for centuries before Jesus birth (circa 4 to 7 BCE). It is obvious that if any copying occurred, it was the followers of Jesus incorporating into his biography the myths and legends of Osiris-Dionysus, not vice-versa."


I won't bother going into individual Christian customs, most of them are pagan though. Christmas, easter, eucharist, baptism, etc....Just assume every christian custom is pagan unless proven otherwise.

  • Aug 04, 2006

Persocom01

Persocom01

Seeker of the Truth

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Quote by PlunkiesConception:

God was his father. This was believed to be literally true in the case of Osiris-Dionysus; their God came to earth and engaged in sexual intercourse with a human. The father of Jesus is God in the form of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18).
A human woman, a virgin, was his mother.

Birth:

He was born in a cave or cowshed. Luke 2:7 mentions that Jesus was placed in a manger - an eating trough for animals. One early Christian tradition said that the manger was in a cave.
His birth was prophesized by a star in the heavens.

Ministry:

At a marriage ceremony, he performed the miracle of converting water into wine.
He was powerless to perform miracles in his home town.
His followers were born-again through baptism in water.
He rode triumphantly into a city on a donkey. Tradition records that the inhabitants waved palm leaves.
He had 12 disciples.
He was accused of licentious behavior.

Execution, resurrection, etc:

He was killed near the time of the Vernal Equinox, about MAR-21.
He died "as a sacrifice for the sins of the world." 1
He was hung on a tree, stake, or cross.
After death, he descended into hell.
On the third day after his death, he returned to life.
The cave where he was laid was visited by three of his female followers
He later ascended to heaven.

His titles:

God made flesh.
Savior of the world.
Son of God.

Beliefs about the God-man:

He is "God made man," and equal to the Father.
He will return in the last days.
He will judge the human race at that time.
Humans are separated from God by original sin. The god-man's sacrificial death reunites the believer with God and atones for the original sin.

From http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/osy.html:

Conception:

...Horus was NOT born of a virgin at all. Indeed, one ancient Egyptian relief depicts this conception by showing his mother Isis in a falcon form, hovering over an erect phallus of a dead and prone Osiris in the Underworld (EOR, s.v. "Phallus"). In other words... necrophilla.

Birth:

Frazer [Fraz.AAO, 8] has Horus born in the swamps, and knows nothing about a star or Wise Men, of any number.

Ministry:

...my research in the academic literature does not surface this fact. I can find references to FOUR "disciples"--variously called the semi-divine HERU-SHEMSU ("Followers of Horus") [GOE:1.491]. I can find references to SIXTEEN human followers (GOE:1.196). And I can find reference to an UNNUMBERED group of followers called mesniu/mesnitu ("blacksmiths") who accompanied Horus in some of his battles [GOE:1.475f; although these might be identified with the HERU-SHEMSU in GOE:1.84]. But I cannot find TWELVE anywhere... Horus is NOT the sun-god (that's Re), so we cannot use the 'all solar gods have twelve disciples--in the Zodiac' routine here.]

Execution, resurrection, etc:

I can find no references to Horus EVER dying, until he later becomes "merged" with Re the Sun god, after which he 'dies' and is 'reborn' every single day as the sun rises. And even in this 'death', there is no reference to a tomb anywhere...
I found in Budge one idea that Horus had died and been cast in pieces in the water, and his parts were fished out by Sebek the crocodile god at Isis' request. But that's a funny sort of baptism at best (see above). Another source notes a story where Horus is bitten by a snake and revived, which is still not much of a parallel. Also, the date dec 25 has no significance in relation to the actual birth date of Jesus.

His titles:

I found thesed titles: [Bud.ERR, 78] Great God, Chief of the Powers, Master of Heaven, Avenger of His Father (since he beat up Set, who "killed" Osiris). He may have been called rightly "Son of Man" as the son of royalty (see here) but I have found no evidence for this.

Beliefs about the God-man:

Evidence is lacking about these claims.

There was a tread comparing Buddhism and the Bible as well: Buddhism and the Bible But proponents of Buddhism quickly dismissed the claim. If there are still followers of Osiris or Horus out there, I bet that they would do the same.

All such alleged comparisons, should be examined critically to determine the truth of their assertions. As far as I know... the assertion that Christianity has pagan origins is a far fetched. I find far more differences than similarities.

  • Aug 04, 2006

mintytwinblademaiden

mintytwinblademaiden

swords love me

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You are correct that Jesus was not born in December; he was born in September if I remember correctly. In all actuallity December was the time that the Wise Men arrived, that is why it is celebrated in December, but it is a Christian holiday, even if Jesus and his disciples didn't start it. That's why it's called Christmas, it's actually Christ-mas, see? It means when Christ was seen, at least I believe I have that right, if not it's still along those lines. There is a non-Christian holiday that takes place at Christmas that is also called Christmas by most but in legality the name was changed to X-mas years ago, that's why there are misconceptions about whether or not Christmas is a Christian holiday.

P.S. Your pictures of Jesus are incorrect, he wouldn't have looked like that, though they are close. Because Jesus was a Jew and was from a Jewish heritage the best possible explanation for Jesus's appearance is that he had olive skin and curly black hair and beard. You were very close though.

Aspiring teen fiction author

  • Aug 04, 2006

DarknessInTheLight

DarknessInTheLight

eyes are the windows to the soul

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This is what I have to say. Yes many christian holidays are taken from Pagan holidays. Here is what I found in my research.

The fictitious has nothing to do with xmas. Xmas coincides with the Winter Solstice and the Yule season, the shortest day of the year. December 25th is the birthdate of the Persian God Mithra, and the Roman Holiday of Saturnalis. The tree, the decorations, baking, gifts and celebrating has NOTHING to do with the nazarene. These are carryovers from origional Pagan celebrations.

"Easter" was stolen from Astaroth. Originally known as "Ashtar." This holiday coincides with the Vernal Equinox of spring when day and night are of equal length. Known as "Eastre" to the Anglo-Saxons. As the Goddess of fertility, she was associated with rabbits and eggs. The Christians stole this holiday and twisted its meaning. Other names include: Easter, Eastre, Eos, Eostre, Ester, Estrus, (Estrus is when an animal goes into heat; mating season) Oestrus, Oistros, and Ostara. Again the "Lamb of God" was stolen form the Zodiac sign of Aries the Ram which occurs every spring.

This is just what I have found. And also I found this in my research which has to do with Satanism but it relates with the Christmas thing and its kind of interesting.

Although the Solstice begins on the 21st-22nd of December, the 23rd is a very special Personal Day for Father. The Sun enters the sign of the Goat which represents Satan. The Night of December 22nd-the eve of December 23rd is the Highest Satanic Holy Night of the year. It is the day after the longest night of the year. Again we look foreward to beginnings, as the days will begin to get longer as the year goes on. THis is a time for intence celebrations and devotion to Lord Satan. Indulgence, decorating the home, family celebrations and get togethers. The Yule holidays for Satanists are times of indulgence and taking pleasure in the physical and material aspects of life. Actually, xmas trees and wreaths are Pagan in origin, so there is no reason not to celebreate this holiday with our families.

Again this is just what I found. And it gives some idea of the whole Pagan/Christianity thing.

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Thanks to Spystreak for making my avatar and Sig!

Human kind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain something of equal value must be lost. That is Alchemy's first law of equivelent exchange. In those days we believed that to be the world's one and only truth.

  • Aug 04, 2006
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Quote by Persocom01
...Horus was NOT born of a virgin at all. Indeed, one ancient Egyptian relief depicts this conception by showing his mother Isis in a falcon form, hovering over an erect phallus of a dead and prone Osiris in the Underworld (EOR, s.v. "Phallus"). In other words... necrophilla.

Eh, something like that. Osirus was killed by his brother and his body parts were scattered across Egypt. Isis found all the pieces except the penis and put him back together. While putting him back together she became pregnant (imaculate conception) and tada...

Honestly I don't really care enough to research Egyptian mythology. Anything past a quick copy and paste is way too much effort for a stupid ingram thread. The point is Christianity isn't exactly original and much of it was stolen or adapted from other religions because it made it easier to convert pagans.

Oh and ingram stop posting those goofy pictures. Do you think someone is going to look at them and think "Hey look it's cartoon jesus! Before I was skeptical about whether jesus ever even existed, but now I'm convinced!"?

  • Aug 04, 2006

rslgto

rslgto

Der Wille zur Macht

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Christianity is based on pagan traditions as is Islam. Think of it as a compilation, like a greatest hits version of pagan traditions and customs mixed with Abrahamic teachings.

And then came the freakin' remix version for Protestants.

"Condemn me, it does not matter. History will absolve me!" - Fidel Castro

~Run Kasumi Run!~

  • Aug 04, 2006

freyy

freyy

Yeah baby

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some of my christian friends said anime is bad! but i dont mind them!.. some of the christians i know celebrate christmass they held christmass party so how can you say that that christmass is not for chirstians. christmass is for everyone! it doesnt matter if your christians,catholic,muslim etc. celebrate it or not its up to you!

idiocy is a crime but somethimes its self defence

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