Warning: Undefined array key "HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE" in /var/www/minitokyo/www/includes/common.inc.php on line 360 Do you think that the atomic bombings were a form of terrorism? - Minitokyo

Do you think that the atomic bombings were a form of terrorism?

The atomic bombings were acts of terrorism?

yes
14 votes
no
34 votes
maybe
7 votes

Only members can vote.

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maverickmechanic

maverickmechanic

Absurd Insanity

Quote by Odeena

Quote by Modierr i dunno the japs had mad underground bases and had resolved to fight to the very last man woman and child standing. kids were being armed and trained to fight, plus the number of u.s. lives it would have cost to beat them would have been enormous. while i suppose from one point of veiw it can be seen as terroism from another it was simply the best option in terms of lives (in their case the whole race) money time and effort.

Don't you think you're exaggerating a little bit? I mean c'mon, you can't imagine 10-year-olds coming out with AK-47's and jumping American soldiers now, can you? Of course, nearly every Japanese supported the war, but from there to saying that every Japanese citizen was willing to die for their country is a long way.


actually you need to watch the history channel. they used propaganda on their own people and told them that the americans would torture them, rape women, ect. children weren't being trained but they still fought.

Quote:
In my view, these attacks WERE a form of terrorism in its own right. Firstly, civilians didn't have anything to do with the actual war. From what I know, a war consists of a series of engagements between the armies of two factions. Since when are civillians a part of the army? The Americans had absolutely no right to use their new discovery abbusively like that. They could've bombarded a military facility, there were plenty of those. But instead, they killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. So yes, these were two acts of terrorism.


so in your logic, killing unarmed civilians is a terrorist act. ok. what about the people of hawaii. there were civilians on that base and they died just as the soldiers did. they were unarmed civilains. hiroshima and nagasaki were military targets and they were chosen to reduce the # of civilian casualties. we even told the japanese "surrender now or face utter destruction" these were acts of war.

Signature ImageThere was glitter everywhere! It looked like somebody stabbed a pixie.
Roadie of .::DarK LeaF::.

Quote by griffonJust a though though.....In the Second World War it took a fleet of bomber to carpet bomb a single military target just to be sure it was throughly destoryed. If a bomb came to with in 300 yards of its target....well that was considered precise for the time. With that said any civilian population within vicinity would surely be caught in the destruction. Infact, the combined conventional bombing campaigns in both the European and Pacific theaters of the war claimed more lives then the devices used on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

merged: 08-07-2006 ~ 10:14pm

Quote by Keiichi...Lockheed Martin or Boing that produces nukes...

BTW, Lockmart and Boeing never made a single nuclear device. These defense contractors produce a wide variety of convential weapons systems (fighter planes, missiles systems, sensor suite and etc.) for the US military and Foreign powers.

Thanks for the info... i miss used the word nuke, anyway the point is the same, some factories of these companies produce weapons and if i m not mistaken, the people that work there are civilians.

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just like Mnemeth said war is war terrorism is terrorism the US build the atomic bomb for a quick victory yes i think that's true but also they don't want to lose so many soldiers and for the purpose of power they weren't only on war against the Axis but also competing with the soviet union and nazi-germany for the arms race. war is for some people unforgiveble but it has a purpose it does make many people suffer but that's war it's the fault of the government. terrorism is a totally oppesite it maybe has a purpose for them but not for the common people terrorism is unforgiveable it's an act of foolish people, brainless people, brainwashed people they are cowards it's only aimed on civilians.

I think America is brainwashed into thinking they can solve anything with war. War against drunk driving, war against drugs, war against terrorism...come on now. Does everything have to be a frickin war?

Bleh! Atomic bombs... just thinking of them makes my head hurt and blood boil.

Atomic bombs are long-ranged weapons that just wipe everything out. I hate this kind of method, as it has no sence of honour.
The day people invented long ranged weapons was the day fighting just became duck+cover. Hand-to-hand at least shows a challenge.

Anyways, atomic bombs aren't the problem. I mean, it's a collection of radioactive molicules... Yeah, bet they can really say "I'm gonna blow you up for the heck of it!"
It's how you use it. If a terrorist used it, then it'd be deemed terrorism. Otherwise, it's a form of mass-destruction or a show of power. Not even worth being called a weapon of war, due to it's destructive capabilities.

I think that the bombs saving more lifes than they took was a side effect of the attack, it was no its real purpose.

And the attack certainly striked fear into the hearts of the world, so at the end the nuclear bombs have ended up becoming a weapon of psychological terror more than anything else, but once again I think that was not its main purpose.

I am ashamed to see such ignorance.. I'm not even gonna get into this. Maybe what you guys should be arguing is Nuclear Weapons in general. Not one of you has mentioned the nuclear fallout that still exsists and damages the ecosystem in japan.

We all know the damn bombing happened, but for gods sake, dont try to justify/condone it.

At this point, America itself was brainwashing its own citizens with propaganda of its own. Its happening to this very day. Just look harder. Watch FOX news channel for 3 minutes. You think those people want you to have your opinion?

Fair and balanced my ass. You all sound like O'reily factor-ites. Damn, racist ass ignorance. OOhh, its war, look, were from different countries. IT DOESN'T MATTER, WERE ALL HUMANS. Its stupid. Its meaningless, dont try to inject substance or reason to it. That only lets you accept it more easily. Open your mind and look with your heart.

the defination of "war" from the dictionary,

fighting between two or more countries or opposing groups between a country, involving large number of soldiers and weapons.

the bombings are an act of war, not terrorism.

when was war not about fear? when was war not about pain and suffering? neither side actually gained from a war, there were always casualties on both sides, sons were lost, brothers were lost, fathers were lost, loved ones were lost,
in a war, its young men dying, old men talking.
and japan is not the only country where civilians were killed, the japanese army massacred countless civillians in the countries they invaded.

war wasn't fair to begin with, the world wasn't fair to begin with.
war distrupts peace, yet war has to be fought, retaliation is neccessary to regain peace. nothing is free in this world, peace comes with a price.

Krawczyk

Wzwejtes

I vote no. Firebombings before hand, remember that. The length of time fallout remains wasn't known at the time of the bombing, so I doubt that crossed anyones' minds. "It lasts a long time" isn't the same as saying "It takes a few hundred years to degrade to safe levels." They just saw it both as a shortcut and a way to tell Russia prior to the Cold War they finished the bomb first.

Quote by xiaodick

when was war not about fear? when was war not about pain and suffering?


Prior to the Rennaissance nobody ever thought about the psychological affect towards the loser. It was mostly chaotic destruction In The Name Of God/In The Name Of My King/Lord/Duke.
Which is why total destruction of one's enemies happened, there was an expectation the opposing side never gives up unless it's advantageous for them.

A fish should swim thrice: in water, in sauce, and in wine.

Quote by xiaodickthe defination of "war" from the dictionary,

fighting between two or more countries or opposing groups between a country, involving large number of soldiers and weapons.

the bombings are an act of war, not terrorism.

when was war not about fear? when was war not about pain and suffering? neither side actually gained from a war, there were always casualties on both sides, sons were lost, brothers were lost, fathers were lost, loved ones were lost,
in a war, its young men dying, old men talking.
and japan is not the only country where civilians were killed, the japanese army massacred countless civillians in the countries they invaded.

war wasn't fair to begin with, the world wasn't fair to begin with.
war distrupts peace, yet war has to be fought, retaliation is neccessary to regain peace. nothing is free in this world, peace comes with a price.

That doesn't mean the actions themselves can't be terrorist. War describes FIGHTING BETWEEN TWO OR MORE COUNTRIES. Actions taken during war can be terrorist in nature. Terrorism used in war. All you're doing is using Osama bin Laden logic. From his perspective, the 9/11 attacks were also an act of war. Doesn't matter, they're still terrorism. Sleep on that before you dredge out the same tired Nietzchen cliches like "nothing is free in this world, peace comes with a price". Great insight, Socrates.

Acts of War and Acts of Terrorism is different. Does anyone do history? War is usually use in a open, armed conflict. Acts of terrorism is usually occured when two nations havent declared war on each other. But the atomic bombs itself in nature was terrorism, yes. However its different than to a act of terrorism. But Japan was at war from 1937-1945.

Also to Phoegon, how can the 9\11 attacks be an act of war? The united states didnt declare war on anyone nor did Osama Bin Laden declare war on the USA. Please show me the statment where somone says "I declare war on the USA". And the statment better be from somone who is in power of that nation \ country.

A few interesting arguments have been made, i'm a bit surprised people didn't jump on a few things said.

Anyway, The bombings were indeed not terrorism. As some have said, does this make it right though? Not really. Was in neccessary? Guess that depends on what you really mean. But probably still not.

However, It falls very much in line with war, especially the war at that time. Civilians had been killed in such attacks throughout WWII, both in europe and in the Pacific, by all sides. And yes, thats been done througout history, although the idea of not killing civilians isn't as new as some have lead on. That idea goes back to many older societies, cultures, and civilizations. Although, yes, some have had the notion of kill all, some have also had the notion of not attacking innocent bystandards. Just War Theory, developed by Thomas Aquinus I believe, along with a few other theologians, brought sparing civilians to the forefront of Christian Western society, but had been around before then. In any case, the idea of war being restricted to military confrontations seems rather like a matter of being lost in translations through time. It is more of a preference because of moral, and sometimes more political and economical, standards that wars be fought between militaries and not include the civilians. Does this mean its alright to kill civilians in war? No, but as said before, war isn't really good or alright either.

As for a bit closer to the nature of the bombings and that context, yes, it was done to end the war quickly, and with fewer casulties, and possibly this by means of scaring the japanese, or more likely breaking their spirit. This is a tactic of war. Sun Tsu in The Art Of War mentions such tactics as being of great use. Since it is best to win a war quickly and best if you can find a way to make the enemy subdue without having to confront them directly or with least loss of your men, and theirs as well. He also points out that the successful General who will win a war has little concern for Honor, in many contexts.

More directly to the reasonings behind the bombing itself though. Some have said it was a neccessary strike to end it quickly. Well, it did do that. Some have said it was horrific because of the massive number of people killed, and the americans knew this would happen, and so on. Well, they did know it would take out alot, however, if that was their goal they wouldn't have dropped the bombs. In reality, the Firebombings were far more effective as destructive and killing devices then the atomic bombs. They required more bombs, yes, but the opporations killed more. And don't get me wrong I'm not saying either firebombings or atomic bombings were justified or good in light of this. However, what the atomic bombings did do was show a fierce new weopon that required less to destroy and destroyed in an unfamilier manner, which accelerated the end of the war. Would the US have one anyway? Probably. Was this to save American lives? Well, yea, sorta, it would end prevent the deployment of more men to die, it was also prevent the killing of more Japanese that would come up during the war as it dragged out longer. But I think a key aspect as someone mentioned was ending the war before Russia got in. The United States did not want the Soviets in Japan, because they knew what that would mean after the war was over. Just as important, they wanted to send a message to everyone, especially the soviets, that the USA had and successfully employed atomic bombs, and all could see now just how destructive these first models were, putting the US in a seat of power in all situations which in fact last to this day since the US is still the only nation to use an atomic or nuclear bomb against another nation.

Another side of this debate though I think people have made a few too many assumptions. There are many forms of Terrorism, and many reasonings. Not all are trying to scare a government into doing this or that. Not all are neccessarily religious fanatics or a number of other things they've been stereotyped as. In fact, the idea of trying to scare a government into change for whatever reason isn't really all that accurate even in the terrorists we think of today, we just confuse it for such since our cultures and lines of philosophy are different. Many terrorists and terrorists groups aren't trying to change anything, they are trying to DO something. They are trying to do something with their lives, something they believe in, they are trying to PARTICIPATE and make a kind of statement sometimes, not solve the problem of some nation being immoral or change anything. They are standing against something, and doing something against what they are standing against, the end (sorta, since they aren't really looking for an end neccessarily). Some terrorists are trying to do what has been said as scaring a government into change or chaos or destruction. Some aren't. Some don't care about civilians, true. But there are others that might actually, and do tend to pick they're targets a little differently. What defines terrorism then? Its really more along the lines of their methods and form of orginization and such then neccessarily their purpose, although that can come into play as well.

It seems to me that for some (although not all) aren't really looking at this question as "Was this terrorism or war?" but more of as "Was this good or bad? Allowable or not allowable? Neccessary or a horrific act?" When thats not really the situation. War isn't a good, or a neccessity either. Terrorism isn't all "Lets go kill people so they run and hide." Personally, I see both as being wrong, although depending on the situations and what is being done, they may be moreso or less so. Killing civilians would deffinetly make an act more wrong, but it doesn't make something either Terrorism or War. Same ideas can be applied to many things. Neither Terrorism nor War have ever been trully Justified. Even with the Just War Theory, which many go beyond and say is unattainable, has in fact never really been met, or questionably so. WWII, which I would say is the closest to being met, in some respects didn't due to some actions taken during the war and how it was opperated on the so called "Justified" side, including the bombings. Do I think we should have allowed the Nazi's and Japanese to take over most the world, kill off and abuse the Jews and Chinese (and gypsies, homosexuals, mentally handicapped, Catholic Priests and various other groups you don't usually hear about whom the Nazis sent to concentration camps), no. It was a hard situation to deal with, and the world dealt with it the way they did. I, luckily, don't have to worry about wheither it was good or bad, and wheither I would involve myself in it the same way.

To finish though to the point. The Bombings were an act of War, inside a War. Pearl Harbor was an act of War inside a War and starting War with another nation that had been to that point in diplomatic discussions. 9/11 was an act of terrorism which somewhat set off a "War" on terrorism, but was still terrorism and wasn't done for any real military reason. All were evil acts.

Doubtful. It was terrorism. But so what? That doesn't mean it's right or wrong. Just by the nature of terrorism, to cause fear and confusion as a means to achieve an end. Terrorism is a tactic. Why does the idea of America committing terrorism make people so queazy? We've committed genocide, overthrew democracies...okay, so we committed terrorism as was a common practice in that era. No country is perfect, why should we feel guilty if we did commit terrorism at some point in order to save lives? Oooh, we were terrorists for a time. Big deal. It's done. Get over it.

Quote by DreamTraveller
Also to Phoegon, how can the 9\11 attacks be an act of war? The united states didnt declare war on anyone nor did Osama Bin Laden declare war on the USA. Please show me the statment where somone says "I declare war on the USA". And the statment better be from somone who is in power of that nation \ country.

Show me Japan's declaration of war on the United States prior to Pearl Harbor. As far as you're concerned, Pearl Harbor was the declaration. RIGHT? And so was 9/11. If terrorists aren't able to wage war, then how do we have a WAR ON TERRORISM? Ownage. What's so hard about this? Absolutely nothing.

LigerZSchnider

LigerZSchnider

Litterbox Trained........

Quote by PhoegonShow me Japan's declaration of war on the United States prior to Pearl Harbor. As far as you're concerned, Pearl Harbor was the declaration. RIGHT? And so was 9/11. If terrorists aren't able to wage war, then how do we have a WAR ON TERRORISM? Ownage. What's so hard about this? Absolutely nothing.

So, that means that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was an act of terrorism! The US did declare war against Japan........after the attack.

You are an asshat. Your comments are meaningless, not to mention stupid.

"In the absence of orders, find something and kill it" - Erwin Rommel

Quote by Krawczyk
Prior to the Rennaissance nobody ever thought about the psychological affect towards the loser. It was mostly chaotic destruction In The Name Of God/In The Name Of My King/Lord/Duke.
Which is why total destruction of one's enemies happened, there was an expectation the opposing side never gives up unless it's advantageous for them.

hahaz... didn't realized that... thanks for the info, btw.

Quote by PhoegonDoubtful. It was terrorism. But so what? That doesn't mean it's right or wrong. Just by the nature of terrorism, to cause fear and confusion as a means to achieve an end. Terrorism is a tactic. Why does the idea of America committing terrorism make people so queazy? We've committed genocide, overthrew democracies...okay, so we committed terrorism as was a common practice in that era. No country is perfect, why should we feel guilty if we did commit terrorism at some point in order to save lives? Oooh, we were terrorists for a time. Big deal. It's done. Get over it.

Quote by DreamTraveller
Also to Phoegon, how can the 9\11 attacks be an act of war? The united states didnt declare war on anyone nor did Osama Bin Laden declare war on the USA. Please show me the statment where somone says "I declare war on the USA". And the statment better be from somone who is in power of that nation \ country.

Show me Japan's declaration of war on the United States prior to Pearl Harbor. As far as you're concerned, Pearl Harbor was the declaration. RIGHT? And so was 9/11. If terrorists aren't able to wage war, then how do we have a WAR ON TERRORISM? Ownage. What's so hard about this? Absolutely nothing.

The Japanese did declare war on the US. As did their alies in germany and italy. Japan had been in diplomatic negotiations for a time before then, the kind of diplomatic negotiations nations enter before going to war with each other to see if they can't resolve their problems. Japan simply striked before the official declaration of War as that would catch the US off guard and allow for a swifter and more effective attack, again advisable by Sun Tsu in The Art Of War.

In any case, there have been many american Terrorists, and the US has done some shifty things, some horrable things, I'd not only admit that I proclaim that. However, I along with many others here are simply saying that this particular act does not fall under terrorism.

As for the War On Terror. Well, theres a War On Drugs but its not REALLY a war in that sense, the term is more of a metaphore. If there was a War On Drugs we'd be in a state of civil war actually. Anyway, the War On Terror is kinda again a way of saying something so that it has more effect, and allows for the use of military action. Its really not a traditional war and even calling it war kinda changes the understanding of what a war is. Also, this particular war was not declared against Al Queda, the proclaimed terrorists responsable for 9/11, it was declared on all Terrorism anywhere, sorta, so really its more of a ideoligcal manhunt for terrorists then a war, and its not declared against the attackers other than by proxy I suppose, although actually its less then by proxy. If it was a real war, however, then by its nature we'd apparently be in World War III, since we'd be at war with people all over the world in very many nations. Well, maybe you think we are. Alright.

You also need to read more (the posts you are responding to). Just because we "declared war" on someone after 9/11 doesn't mean they declared war on us, and thus if they didn't declare war after their supposed act of war, it wasn't an actual act of war, although if you'd like you could put it in a catagory of an act of provoking war, which could be anything from a military action to spitting on a King.

Please, try and think about this, its pretty clear. I don't want to have to resort to more complex means of philosophy and being.

merged: 08-18-2006 ~ 11:13pm
Also, I'd like everyong to keep in mind, this is a discussion. An extrange of ideas and opinions on a topic in, wow get this, an online forum which is designed for just that. Theres not need for anyone to get over angry about it, or to be offensive and start insulting everyone else. And really, phoegon, if, as you said, we should get over it, it happened, its not a big deal, then why are you making so much out of it and coming in insulting and attacking everyone? Yes, after you did that the retaliation was also an attack that problably wasn't very appropriate either, but you did just come in on the attack against people, not the issue. We can all discuss this without getting angry, since, as has been noted, it was a long time ago and what happened happened. And, if you think its a stupid discussion since its so obvious or the people are making stupid suggestions that you feel so annoyed you must start attacking people, don't read it, and don't post. Simple as that. When I'm not interested in topics people post, or what they are saying seems trivial and so off it annoys me, I simply don't keep reading and I look for something more interesting.

Quote by Phoegon

Quote by DreamTraveller
Also to Phoegon, how can the 9\11 attacks be an act of war? The united states didnt declare war on anyone nor did Osama Bin Laden declare war on the USA. Please show me the statment where somone says "I declare war on the USA". And the statment better be from somone who is in power of that nation \ country.

Show me Japan's declaration of war on the United States prior to Pearl Harbor. As far as you're concerned, Pearl Harbor was the declaration. RIGHT? And so was 9/11. If terrorists aren't able to wage war, then how do we have a WAR ON TERRORISM? Ownage. What's so hard about this? Absolutely nothing.

Oh... my god. Please learn history while you still are in school. Japan was at war with the allies before 1941. Or didnt you know that Japan joined the Axis in 1940?

"War on Terrorism" ? Dude, you need to stop posting. Your digging hole more and more into something worse.


But If you really want to absolutly want me to explain the phase "War on Terrorism" then you either dont understand the phase or you are completely outside the circle of logic or how the media works.

and i think we should also have our dictionary( international edition prefered) at hand, and use it whenever apporpriate, while exchanging ideas in the forum and reading other's post, as what i had observed here, some disturbance or friction or watever was caused by what seems to be the root of it, the different definations and usage of the word "War". (my command of english isn't that strong, so i used my dictionary in the city hall forum)

and it seems i missed out something, the conclusion or summary of my view/post which i hope makes my views clearer, in conclusion, from my point of view, war is war, terrorism is terrorism, even there are many great similarities between war and terrorism( fear, killings, innocent death etc..), there are still differences between the two words, war and terrorism. and one can find the differences between the two words can be found if one refers to his or her english dictionary (in this case)

hahaz... hope its clear enough... ^_^'

._. you know america did send warnings ever day for days before they did it. It's not like they just went" Bam your dead haw 8d" They told they what they were gunna do and where o.o`

They were at war and you know The Japanese attacked Peral hArbor first ~_~ and on a Sunday~ The day of rest for most americans because people used to be Christian alot back then ._./ They gave no warning they just attacked. It may not be as bad as an atomic bomb but still ~_ ~ what about us americans.


And what about when Waring countrys would fly plains over their enmys citys and drop regular bomb o.o` i know i saw on TV that a goup of people had to destroy berlin wich was a city and ciuty usualy have cavillians~ o.o

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maverickmechanic

maverickmechanic

Absurd Insanity

i just recently found out that the fire bombings of tokyo killed more people than the bomb on Hiroshima.

Signature ImageThere was glitter everywhere! It looked like somebody stabbed a pixie.
Roadie of .::DarK LeaF::.

No, the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not terrorist acts, regardless of who the victims of the attacks were. A terrorist act is only a terrorist act when it is done by a group that is not on behalf of a country. The bombings were an attack from the United States on Japan, not an unknown American terrorist group on the Japanese economy or something. You can argue against this point because of how mostly civilians were killed, but whether you like it or not, a country is a piece of land and everything in those borders is apart of that country, this regardless of what you attack you attack that country. It doesn't mean it's right, it just means that's the way it is.

I still can't decide whether it was a good or bad thing to drop the atomic bombs though. One thing I am sure of is that two bombs were overkill, one bomb was all they needed.

maverickmechanic

maverickmechanic

Absurd Insanity

we dropped one bomb, the second the japanese brought upon themselves because they did not surrender after the first. if they had surrendered, a second bomb could have been avoided.

Signature ImageThere was glitter everywhere! It looked like somebody stabbed a pixie.
Roadie of .::DarK LeaF::.

Danworth

Danworth

.:Talk slowly, think quickly:.

I don't want to join the arguement I just want to put in my two cents then leave ^_^.

From everything I learned it was indeed a form of terrorism because we were in fact trying to "Terroris" them into submission because we did not want to invade japan.

Because if we had to invade the estamates of american lifes lost where to great to risk invasion.

And while we did bomb them we did tell them we are about to bomb you.

We did not want to do it but we also did not want to lose american lifes ither.

Our planes flew over the citys before we bombed dropping fliers saying "Leave the city were about to bomb you"

Things would of been alot worse if there had to been an invasion there would of been Hundreds of thousands possibly millions more in casialties had we invaded.

But the war should of never happend.

Theres my two cents I was for both sides so hopefull no one will hate me now ^_^.

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Quote by DreamTravellerOh... my god. Please learn history while you still are in school. Japan was at war with the allies before 1941. Or didnt you know that Japan joined the Axis in 1940?

Wait, what.

Japan wasn't at was with anyone except China before 1941. Joining the Axis didn't bring them into Germany's war against the Allies, just as Japan allying with Germany didn't bring the Germans into Japan's war. It wasn't until Japan moved to seize European colonial holdings in Southeast Asia to make up for what they weren't getting from the United States because of the trade embargo. This was in 1941.

I believe you were telling someone they needed to learn history?

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