Atheism and Theism

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Yu-huang

Yu-huang

The Jade Emperor

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I'm starting this thread for Theists and Atheists so that they can debate.
Since most thread that involves God is turn into a debate I decided to create one specifically for that.

If your are religious please start by saying your religion, (or religious views if you use a more broad term such as agnostic) and which version of the bible you prefer to use.

Try to keep this as a serious on conversation topic. Thanks.
Furthermore, keep it civil ladies, personal insults are not tolerated and will be reported.

When Darkness Falls, All is quiet in the Mist of the Night.

DarkIngram

DarkIngram

Urzu 7

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My religion is Jehovah's Witnesses... :D I'm using the Bible--New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures

I believe in Almighty God, Jehovah, Creator of the heavens and the earth. The very existence of the intricately designed wonders in the universe surrounding us reasonably argues that a supremely intelligent and powerful Creator produced it all. Just as the works of men and women reflect their qualities, so do those of Jehovah God. The Bible tells us that "his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world's creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made." Also, without voice or words, "the heavens are declaring the glory of God."--Romans 1:20; Psalm 19:1-4.

People do not mold clay pots or make television sets and computers without a purpose. The earth and its creations of plant and animal life are far more marvelous. The structure of the human body with its trillions of cells is beyond our understanding--even the brain with which we think is incomprehensibly wonderful! If men have a purpose in bringing forth their comparatively insignificant inventions, surely Jehovah God had a purpose in his awesome creations! Proverbs 16:4 says that he does: "Everything Jehovah has made for his purpose."

Jehovah made the earth for a purpose, as he stated to the first human pair: "Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth . . . ,have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth." (Genesis 1:28) Because they became disobedient, this couple failed to fill the earth with righteous families who would lovingly care for the earth and its plants and animals. But their failure does not make Jehovah's purpose fail. Thousands of years later, it was written: "God, the Former of the earth . . . , did not create it simply for nothing." He "formed it even to be inhabited." It is not to be destroyed, but "the earth endures for ever." (Isaiah 45:18; Ecclesiastes 1:4, The New English Bible) Jehovah's purpose for the earth will be realized: "My own counsel will stand, and everything that is my delight I shall do."--Isaiah 46:10.

I believe that the earth will remain forever and that all people, living and dead, who will fit in with Jehovah's purpose for a beautified, inhabited earth may live on it forever. All mankind inherited imperfection from Adam and Eve and, hence, are sinners. (Romans 5:12) The Bible tells us: "The wages sin pays is death." "The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all." "The soul that is sinning--it itself will die." (Romans 6:23; Ecclesiastes 9:5; Ezekiel 18:4, 20) Then how can we live again to share in the earthly blessings? Only through the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus, for he said: "I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life." "All those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out."--John 5:28, 29; 11:25; Matthew 20:28.

How will this come about? It is explained in "the good news of the kingdom," which Jesus started to proclaim while on earth. (Matthew 4:17-23) But today Jehovah's Witnesses are preaching the good news in a very special way... :D

---What JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES believe---
* Bible is God's Word and is truth
* Bible is more reliable than tradition
* God's name is Jehovah
* Christ is God's Son and is inferior to Him
* Christ was first of God's creations
* Christ died on a stake, not a cross
* Christ's human life was paid as a ransom for obedient humans
* Christ's one sacrifice was sufficient
* Christ was raised from the dead as an immortal spirit person
* Christ's presence is in spirit
* We are now in the 'time of the end'
* Kingdom under Christ will rule earth in righteousness and peace
* Kingdom will bring ideal living conditions to earth
* Earth will never be destroyed or depopulated
* God will eliminate present system of things in the battle at Har-Magedon
* Wicked will be eternally destroyed
* People God approves will receive everlasting life
* There is only one road to life
* Human death is due to Adam's sin
* The human soul ceases to exist at death
* Hell is mankind's common grave
* Hope for dead is resurrection
* Adamic death will cease
* Only a little flock of 144,000 go to heaven and rule with Christ
* The 144,000 are born again as spiritual sons of God
* New covenant is made with spiritual Israel
* Christ's congregation is built upon himself
* Prayers are to be directed only to Jehovah through Christ
* Images should not be used in worship
* Spiritism must be shunned
* Satan is invisible ruler of world
* A Christian ought to have no part in interfaith movements
* A Christian should keep separate from world
* Obey human laws that do not conflict with God's laws
* Taking blood into body through mouth or veins violates God's laws
* Bible's laws on morals must be obeyed
* Sabbath observance was given only to Israel and ended with Mosaic Law
* A clergy class and special titles are improper
* Man did not evolve but was created
* Christ set example that must be followed in serving God
* Baptism by complete immersion symbolizes dedication
* Christians gladly give public testimony to Scriptural truth

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My religion is originalluy Christianity...though I am not really a Christian, I'm actually atheist. Therefore I don't have any preferences over bible versions.
I do believe however Jesus existed, just not the way Christians and other religions like to believe. I mean, come on, who can actually tell us Jesus was a virgin! And I am sure he DID start the Christian move but I do believe people have changed many of its principals over time.
I believe I would be a Christian if not for the Church. In my opinion Christian Church is the most contradictory, manipulative and unhuman institution ever.
The Christian Church is contradictory specially when it comes to their believes, for they preach to love all and all that but what can you tell about the Inquisition?! That was absulutely unhuman and totally contradictory to their believes! Or how about the crusades and the time when they expelled muslims out of Europe. History has proved far too many times the Christian Church to be one of the most unhuman religion ever!

But Christian Church has also proved to be quite manipulative. It has gotten to the degree that they have degradated the image of women to the eyes of men. Women were believed sacred, and now we're believed to almost be the devil himself! The Church introduced this concept probably because of their wish to control everything and the best way is to threat people. To make them believe they're sinners, and what best sin than that of the flesh? Therefore, if Jesus himself, had committed that crime the sin wouldn't be strong enough, so they made people believe Jesus was in fact a virgin, with no proof whatsoever. Women were 8and still are) considered threats for the Church, for they were able to seduce and conquer men easily, so if they made them the worst sin ever the vission of men would change to start to see women as sinners and as unpure which was totally opposite to the sacred image women once had. Women became to be sinners and threats instead of the creators of life and sacred femine.

Those are just the first things the Church started with, for later came the Inquisition.

So, after analizing many aspects of the Christian Church I decided that I couldn't possible support such atrocities and decided I would atheist...

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  • Aug 09, 2006

Shinsengumi89

Shinsengumi89

The Watcher of Movies

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Okay well, i'm an Athiest, i lack a belief in God. basicly for many of the reasons stated in the post above( no offense to any belivers) also for their view against Homosexuals, and how most religons don't tolerate changes over time.

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  • Aug 09, 2006

embershadow

embershadow

Quincy Archer Hates You

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Well, I consider myself more "agnostic" than "atheist"--I don't believe in God or any sort of supreme, conscious deity, but I do think that sometimes things happen for a reason; that destiny is not preordained but that there are certain occurences that were meant to happen. Decided by who? I don't know. I don't think any conscious decision by any deity is involved; in fact, the very idea of a conscious deity, of heaven and hell full of angels and demons and a God up there that is omniscient and omnipresent and somehow can make decisions for the entire earth is nothing short of ridiculous for me. I think the concept of such a thing is fascinating; my love for the manga Angel Sanctuary can show that... but the idea of it existing in reality is kind of absurd.

I think that the "spiritual elements" of this world could have just been created by humans--like, ghosts, deep-seated grudges, telepathic vibes, mind-reading and foresight and stuff... I don't really believe in it per say, but I think that there's some truth to the idea that there is a "supernatural". But I think it's because of humans... like... the emotions of humans would create it, not any sort of God.

Sometimes I think that after death we're reincarnated, or maybe our "soul" goes into a sort of dreamlike state.

And sometimes, when I look out the window, I find the idea of any spiritual or fantastical elements existing on this earth full of logic and science incredulous.

So sometimes I'm not really sure what I believe at all.

However, I don't ponder the existence of God and such all that much; I'm of the strong opinion that we can never know whether there's a God or whatever or not. There is no actual, solid proof for or against the existence of such a God, and there never will be. So no one has the right to say "There's a God because I know there is," because you don't, but nor do they have the right to say "There's no God because that's obvious and you're stupid" for the same reason.

The Bible was written by humans, of course, everyone knows that. And it's been greatly altered and translated and amended and etc etc etc over the long, long years of its existence. And it's sketchy from the start--people interpreting other people's interpretations of what they have interpreted to believe is a message from God, which they had to interpret (do I hear an echo in here?). I think that some of those people were delusional, some of them were misunderstood, some of them misinterpreted things, and some of them were liars. Others were just writing stories.

I think the Bible can be appreciated as a trove of history and literature, but to believe any of its allegations of God as fact just because they're written down is silly. The Bible saying there's a God does not equal proof of God.

The thing that bothers me the most about religion in general is the intolerance and refusal to be open to other beliefs and ways of life that seems to be present in not just Christianity, which is the target of almost all religion-bashers, but almost all other religions (and cults) out there. All this bias against women, homosexuals, other races, etc, makes me sick.

People have a tendency to settle into one way of thinking and refuse to see things any other way, and when things or people are different from them, it tends to scare them, and they get defensive and arguments and wars erupt. Which, when you think about it, is really, really sad (in all meanings of the word).

I won't say that I'm not closed-minded at times, because obviously I'm not perfect and have no delusions of being so, but I try to be open to other people's thoughts and opinions and try to accept people for who they are. But you know, sometimes that's pretty hard to do.

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This is my second post so I don't see the point in telling which faith I follow but anyways I'm atheist

I really agree with the post above...and before I just expressed myself about Christians because that's a faith I'm quite familar with, so I don't dare talk about things I really don't know.

But I most agree in the sense that many cults and religions are not what one can call open-minded, specially when it comes to topics like homosexuality. I really hate people who like to classify others according to their cultures or their sexual inclinations. People shouldn't judge others because what one may like another may dislike. We're different and we have a right to be different.

I also agree with the fact that this discrimination happens around world. Which is really idiotic to be blunt about it. I mean there's no point whatsoever in discriminating peolple for we are all different! So nobody should be discriminated for simply being different! It's absurd and to be honest it makes me want to cut someone's tongue when that someone's discriminating another person, come on get life and stop minding other people's business.

Sometimes you are the windshield. Sometimes you are the bug.

  • Aug 09, 2006

Omikami

Omikami

Ruler of the Plane of Heaven

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Quote by DarkIngram I believe in Almighty God, Jehovah, Creator of the heavens and the earth.

Why? What eleminates the possibility of an alien or something creating us accidently?

  • Aug 10, 2006

Shinsengumi89

Shinsengumi89

The Watcher of Movies

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My guess is they like being comforted because they know the " Truth ".

Shinsen89

* I do not mean to offend anyone, this is the last time i will say this.

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  • Aug 10, 2006

Omikami

Omikami

Ruler of the Plane of Heaven

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Quote by DarkIngramBible is God's Word and is truth
Christ died on a stake, not a cross
Only a little flock of 144,000 go to heaven and rule with Christ

How can you know that it is the word of God and the truth when it was written by human hands?
How do you know 144,000 will go to heaven?
How did you comme up with Christ dying on a stake?

  • Aug 10, 2006

CyberDragoon

The Prince of Nothing

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Quote: The Bible tells us that "his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world's creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made." Also, without voice or words, "the heavens are declaring the glory of God."--Romans 1:20; Psalm 19:1-4.

First off let me say this. How do you know that God exists and those are his qualities? Because the bible said so. How do you know the bible is true? Because the bible was inspired and or written by God. You see your circular reasoning now? Now extend that to everything you just said.

Personally, I belong to a very radical sect of the Chunch of the FSM. If you don't know what that is please refer to the following websites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_spagetti_monster
http://www.venganza.org/


The particulars of my belief involves the following.

* An invisible and undetectable Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, starting with a mountain, trees and a midgit.

* All evidence pointing toward evolution was intentionally planted by the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The FSM tests Pastafarians' faith by making things look older than they really are.

* Pastafarian heaven includes at least one beer volcano and one stripper factory.

* "Ramen" is the official conclusion to prayers.

One of the reasons for my sect's radical difference from mainstream FSM is that we dispute the idea that the lack of pirates in today's time causes global warming. Despite the vast body of evidence (see below)

http://www.venganza.org/piratesarecool4.jpg

We find that that idea is absurd. Instead, we have concluded that it was the increase in the amount garbage masquerading as "real" science people are trying to have taught next to evolution. As we all know if you pump air into a tire it gets hotter. We suspect that a similar effect is occuring now only that the "tire" is the earth and the "air" is all that junk.

I'm sure by now I've converted all of you over so please feel free to spread the word if you like. And if you laugh at my beliefs I'll be forced to rip your viscera and use it to strangle you. Then I am required by scripture to insert candy into your hollowed out corpse and give it to orphans.

This is also another reason why my sect is considered radical by mainstream FSM.

Peace be with you brothers! Ramen!

  • Aug 10, 2006

j0n0

j0n0

Increadibly Cute

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I am a Pastafarian. Why, do you ask matie. It's simple, BEER VOLCANO and STIPPER FACTORY, arr. What deck scrubing, village burning, rum drinking man would want anything more. Now if you'll excuse, I have to an "english man" what sharks like for breakfest. hehe hahaha

An eye for an eye brings justice, but it is compassion that changes a man.

Another point of view doesn't necessarily make yours more or less right.

  • Aug 10, 2006

Shinsengumi89

Shinsengumi89

The Watcher of Movies

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Don't mind them ther just proving that as normal human being can create their own religon, and it be almost as sensible as the bible!

merged: 08-11-2006 ~ 01:33am
But again this is Freedom of Religon right? My question is why do people need the belief in a God?

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  • Aug 10, 2006
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well I am an atheist...I don't believe in God. It's just hard for me to base my life on a book and to believe in something that seems so fake. It just seems like some guy was tripping on something and wrote the Bible...but I'm not gonna rant on and on..each to their own

  • Aug 10, 2006
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First off...I am an evangelical Christian and these are the basics of what I believe.

1. I believe in one God and the Trinity: God the Father, God the Holy Spirit, and God the Son (Jesus Christ)

2. I believe Jesus was born a virgin birth by Mary and was therefore without sin. He had to be, otherwise His death is meaningless. Its this thought that is under so much attack today, because it is one of the main facet of salvation through Christ.

3. I believe that ALL (Christians too!) are born with sin and are in need of Christs redemptive work on the cross.

4. I believe that the only way into heaven is not by being a good person or doing lots of works, but by simply accepting God's gift of salvation through the blood that was shed on the cross by His son.

5. I believe the Bible is the only Word of God.

6. I believe we live in a fallen world, brought on by the work of Satan.


...I believe Christian's today, mostly in America, have caused alot of damage to the name of Christ by simply passing judgement and damnation onto those who don't believe or share our same moral convictions. Understand that Jesus was very clear on what God expects

We are so easily able to dish out damnation on the homosexual community. The reality is I think its really sad that alot of society reject God because their view of Him has been severly tainted by the bad behavior and judgement of "Christians" today. Ultimately judging others is not our job...its God's. He is the one and only perfect Judge.

Instead of winning people to Christ through love and compasion we stand on the street corner and tell people they are going to hell for not believing or repenting. I will state that God is clear in His Word that there are consequences to sin, but that doesn't mean He doesn't still love us. He loves EVERYONE!

The bottom line is this. Everyone wants to feel good about themselves. No one wants to hear that they have sin in their life or that they need a savior.

I think that's why alot of people reject Him, and try to disprove Him. They think "Hey! If I can just believe there is no God then I don't have to deal with sin or I don't have to be accountable for my actions through life.

They don't want to deal with the ugliness in their life...the great thing is they don't have to. Christ can take anything and make it beautiful!

  • Aug 10, 2006

Shinsengumi89

Shinsengumi89

The Watcher of Movies

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I'll disagree, i do know i am not perfect, i do know, i have done " bad things", but i don't need some God telling me that. I have myself to tell me what right and whats wrong. And if i do wrong and it is illegal then i have the police to arrest me! Thats what we call Law and Order.

Also i do not like the treatment, of women, homosexuals, colored peoples, and other minorty groups in the past, by religous organizations such as Chrisitanity.

Oh and you say people don't want to deal with ugliness thats a total misconception, in fact it's the exact opossite, in my case i deal with my own problems, wether it be with my friends, family, doctors or most importantly myself. I am fully accountable for my actions, for every action there is a reaction.

I appricate that you think that everyone needs a god, thats your right, but to impress that idea onto others is what is the probelm... And thats why Religon should stay away from Government.


Shinsen89

Freedom of Religon is important, but so is the Seperation of Church and State

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  • Aug 10, 2006

embershadow

embershadow

Quincy Archer Hates You

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Quote by rolsonDesign
The bottom line is this. Everyone wants to feel good about themselves. No one wants to hear that they have sin in their life or that they need a savior.

I think that's why alot of people reject Him, and try to disprove Him. They think "Hey! If I can just believe there is no God then I don't have to deal with sin or I don't have to be accountable for my actions through life.

They don't want to deal with the ugliness in their life...the great thing is they don't have to. Christ can take anything and make it beautiful!

While the first line of that is undoubtably true about humans--we all prefer to believe that everything is rosy and good as opposed to opening our eyes to the bad things that are happening around us--to believe that everything will be happy and rosy just by believing in an invisible deity and an ancient book is escapism and denial of reality to the first degree.

The idea that Heaven is for people who believe in aforementioned book and deity, and that there is no correlation between your placement and how "good" you are as a person... how is that in any way a fair institution? There was a proselytizing website that I ran across one day that said "even if you kill 1000 people, you will still be able to go to Heaven if you accept Christ into your heart and believe that he is the true savior!"

That seems ridiculous and unfair to me. Your God practises favoritism.

I've chosen not to believe in God because I think that being bound my nonsensical rules and empty promises is not how I want to live my life. It's not because I'm afraid of God or the Devil. People have a hard time making the connection here, but... I don't believe in God or the Devil. I do not not believe in them because I am afraid of them. I am not afraid of them because I don't believe in them.

It really irks me when people say "you choose to not belive in God because you are afraid of the consequences and blah blah!" No. I just don't believe in him.

I'll also add again the fact (and yes, this is an undeniable fact) that as of today, there is still absolutely no solid proof whatsoever, in any way, shape or form that proves the existence of God or any gods. Thus, there is also no evidence that disproves such a notion.

You cannot go about saying that "God is real and you can only get into heaven by believing in him!"

Because you have every right to believe that, but because there is no proof supporting your belief, you do not have the right to force your beliefs on others.

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VindicatoR

VindicatoR

Greato!

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Well I'm a Christian too. And well i have some doubts about some stuff, but i still believe to be a Christian.
And I believe in God and the Trinity.

Hmm... i dunno if i should go into the homosexual thing...
I mean u have +(positive) force and a -(negative) force, when both combined u get a unity.
You dont mix a + with a +, or a - with a -.
Thats just wrong, you wont get unity that way nevermind what you do.
And this is basic on science, not a religion so this is human thinking right here.
Things are made in pairs, otherwise there would have been only one sex.

And yeah I think humans are weak/stupid beings, and why we are even here in the first place.
I dont think God is the problem, I think humans are the problem.
Well my only real mission is to probably let everyone know about God.(Meaning just hearing about him)
And then finally get this damn cursed human race to rest so this all can end.

Just my opinion...

Omikami

Omikami

Ruler of the Plane of Heaven

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Ladies and gentlemen, you cannot hope to battle the fundamenatalist god. He can do anything. He is all knowing. He is perfect in every aspect, just because the bible says so. Where is your proof that the bible is correct?

  • Aug 10, 2006

Yu-huang

Yu-huang

The Jade Emperor

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"I am the one and only god and if you don't worship me you will burn forever!"
How can you have any respect for that ?
I rather burn in hell for all eternity than worship such a god.
How can you live with that in mind?

When Darkness Falls, All is quiet in the Mist of the Night.

Shinsengumi89

Shinsengumi89

The Watcher of Movies

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I agree with Yu-huang i would rather burn in hell as well, but again i don't belive in hell.

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  • Aug 10, 2006
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Perso's thread was locked which should have been posted here, so I thought I'd cut out the middle man and respond here.

Quote by Persocom01After some research into the facinating phenomenon of Atheism, I have come to an interesting conclusion. Firstly, I have found that one of the main reasons why people choose to be Atheist is the desire to believe only in evidence rather than faith.

"I wish to propose for the reader's favourable consideration a doctrine which may, I fear, appear wildly paradoxical and subversive. The doctrine in question is this: that it is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true." - Bertrand Russell

This is an interesting intellectual position that I have examined, especially as it deals with the question of origins. Why is it interesting?

Put simply atheism is the most logical postition to take.

Quote: 1. Just because there is no examinable evidence of something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. For example, I leave a can of beer in the fridge, and leave home. When I return an hour later, I find that the can of beer is missing. I automatically infer that someone must have taken my can of beer. Now how did I do that? I come to that conclusion despite the lack of evidence because no natural explanation is adequate for explaining my missing beer. Could it have been wind? No. Bird? Nope. Earthquake? Ridiculous. Therefore it must have been a person! Of course, this is not to say that we should believe in everything but instead as Sherlock Holmes observed, "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

Your metaphor has problems. The evidence is everywhere.

1. Your beer existed, it was sitting in the fridge, you put it there.
2. You left the beer for a short amount of time
3. When you came back the beer was no longer in the position it was left.

This is what you have to work with. How do beers leave a fridge? Judging from the evidence the most likely explanation is a person took that beer.

Now if you wish to use this as an analogy for believing in god you're missing some things. The beer was taken and it's obvious it was taken, we'll equate that with life and the world, etc. (The things that are observed are the missing beer). Then we assign a person to it, say we dust for fingerprints on the fridge and find yours and some other person's, the other prints are probably the most likely suspect, we'll call him Evolution. Evolution is supported by a great deal of irrefutable evidence, I don't think that's a stretch. God, we'll dub the "Beer Napper", a person you've hypothesised about who goes door to door stealing beers and leaves no trace of himself. Now your analogy seems to be falling into place.

So who's more likely, the Beer Napper or the Evolution guy? Well both are technically possible, the question is which is more probable and actually happened. I guess the answer is up to whatever you wish to believe, keep in mind though that if you have unwavering belief in the Beer Napper he will no longer take your beers.

Quote: 2a. The most interesting part comes when an Atheist is asked about origins. By definition, an Atheist cannot believe that a supernatural existance was involved in creating anything in this world. (because there is no examinable evidence) Now the way an Atheist fills this interllectual vacuum is to ground his beliefs in scientific theory. The most common of which is Natualistic Evolution, (nothing supernatural) however as science progresses it has become increasingly apparent that Naturalistic Evolution cannot account for the incredible complexies of life. Take for example, the biomolecular processes that occur every day in one of the cells in your body. IBM spent 5 years building a petaflop supercomputer under the project name "Blue Gene" just to study them. http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/sj/402/allen.html The single process of protein folding alone takes anything up to a year for this computer to simulate. Yet in reality how long does a biological cell take to perform this incredible feat? lLess than 1 second. The absurdity of the notion that natural processes can result in the complexity we see in all life is expressed by evolutionist Franklin Harold:

"We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."

Note this he is obviously an evolutionist, however my point is adequate expressed. An Atheist who bases his belief in Naturalistic Evolution bases it on a large amount of mere speculation. (the destestable notion of faith rears it's ugly head here)

First of all calling the disbelief in the supernatural an "intellectual vacuum" is a bit disingenuous, but I'll let it slide.

Now the problem with your stance is you clump fact with uncertainty and call the whole thing faith. You see, evolution happened, what's under debate and what you're nitpicking are the MECHANICS through which evolution occured. Science is still working on figuring out these processes but we certaintly aren't completely in the dark, there is a great deal of evidence for natural selection and mutation. However, no matter how uncertain the mechanics of evolution are it does not change the evidence that evolution actually occured.

To go back to the beer analogy, we're not exactly sure HOW this beer was stolen, but certainly it was infact stolen. We have evidence that says someone opened the door and took the beer, but you say that the beer simply vanished through the Beer Napper's beer stealing portal. Apparently the evidence for stealing the beer isn't enough for you, and even if you had a tape of someone stealing it you'd find some way to reject it anyhow.

Quote: b. Now that doesn't deter most Atheists. So what if there aren't any good explanations now? It does not rule out the possibility that one will be found in the future. While this is true, it contradicts the common Atheistic stand that he only believes in things that have evidence. An even more interesting thing is what often happens when asked the question of the origins of life or the universe. An Atheist might respond in 2 ways:

i. Why does it have to be God who creates the universe? Can't the universe have always existed?


ii. I don't HAVE to believe anything. You can say you have no idea how life started and still be an atheist. You don't even have to know what abiogenesis is.

The problem with i. is that scientists agree that the universe has had a beginning 13 billion years ago, so it didn't always exist. The belief that the universe has always existed is not based on any observed evidence. Now everything that has a beginning must have a cause. To say that the universe began by itself is a statement of faith in itself.

For your universe thing, the big bang happened 13 billion years ago. What the big bang originated from could have been there much longer.

As for abiogenesis, there is evidence that supports it. We only get closer and closer to creating life ourselves. Infact a big problem is defining life, where's the line? Is a virus life? It can replicate and evolve. A prion? This only further supports that life is a natural process and not some construction or miracle.

The evidence supports abiogenesis, judging from the evidence it most likely happened. I'm the most atheistic atheist you'll ever meet and I have no faith in abiogenesis. It's belief is only held up by the evidence that supports it, and if some other reasonable explanation comes up, supported by evidence, that is better than abiogenesis then I will believe that that is the most likely explanation.

The belief that the universe always existed is just a hypothesis. Usually a method of explaining to someone like you the fault in your reasoning. Using occam's razor, it's more logical to say the universe always existed rather than to say the universe was created by god and god always existed. You're making up a magical entity to pass our ignorance to. Either way you have the same problem, but the former makes more sense. We're not sure if the universe is expanding, contracting, or pulsing but none of these have anything to do with a magical being called god. Just because you don't know something doesn't mean you should make up creatures to fill in these holes.

Quote: The problem with ii. is that this stand can only exist in an interllectual vacuum. Once one agrees with the idea that life has had a beginning 3.5 billion years ago, there remains only 2 options: life began naturally (abiogenesis) or supernaturally. (God created) However an Atheist, by definition, rejects the idea that life began supernatually. Thus taking the stand of ii. is only possible even with this knowledge by commiting the logical fallacy of invincible ignorance. http://www.cuyamaca.edu/bruce.thompson/Fallacies/invincible_ignorance.asp

No one is refusing to listen to you. I'm even going out of my way to respond. Your invincible ignorance fallacy is irrelevent and doesn't apply to anything here. Abiogenesis is supported by evidence, god is not.

Quote: Thus I conclude that the common Atheist stand of wanting only to believe only in evidence is an ultimately indefensible position. The only logical position for an Atheist to assume is to admit that he does require a certain amount of faith.

And here we have it. The purpose of your post. You don't try to raise your own religion to the logicalness of atheism but instead try to lower atheism to the stupidity of religion. That's how sad your position is. Atheism requires no faith no matter how you spin it. Deal with it.

  • Aug 10, 2006

CrazyGiirl

CrazyGiirl

*CONFUSED

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im a free thinker...wads an atheism/theism? But,i sort of believe there is a god,cuz my aunt's a Christian... but there shouldnt be any fights against this,would cause a riot....

  • Aug 11, 2006
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Believing atheism requires faith is absurd! People who are atheist are so because they do not believe in a god! Therefore atheism does not requiere faith.

I completely agree with the post above. No matter how hard you try, there's no actual way to prove God exists even less that he created all we all know. Starting with the fact that we ALREADY KNOW evolution happened, so there's no point in insisting that God created all we know.

Back to the initial point, atheism is more logical, therefore more accurate. Religion is a nice way to manipulate people to do what the heads of such want them to.

No offense, but that's what I believe. I mean, religion is way to keep people in order, by making them believe in divine powers no one actually knows they exist. If you take a look at history, you'll find out most actions of human life have a religious background. Religion has always been a way to control people, because, let's face it, it's the easiest way to do so. Faith is a thing human kind is most likely to need, 'cause without faith many can't find motivition, so in a way, religion does a good thing when providing people faith. The problem begins when religious leaders begin manipulating people with their religion. They trick them, to make them believe in the most absurd and sometimes even horrible things. All these because they want power! Really outrageous if you ask me.

Now, religion has improved that however. I mean, I must accept that religion is now less manipulative than before, but that doesn't mean the damage they've caused is now repaired.

Anyway, I really don't mean to insult anybody by saying all this, so in case I have, sorry, because that's certainly not my purpose. I'm just exposing my point of view. I really don't mean to insult anybody, because my family is completely devoted to Christianity and I'd be like insulting them, so I'm not.

The reason I say all of these things is because they are true. The Christian masacre in Rome after the big fire in Nero's time was a fight over power trying to use religion as a mean to convince people Christians and their religion were an awful and terrible thing. Upon realizing Cristianity was rising, Nero actually burned Rome and blame it on Chritians! Then of course, everybody who believed Nero, began thinking Christians were some sorts of devils and then they BURNED them or threw themn to the beasts in the Coliseum, while the romans just sat there and watched as if that was the greatest expectacle ever!

Christianity this time was a victim, however, later when they rised to power ( again it's all about power) they forgot a principle of their faith was to forgive your enemies! Didn't Jesus say that if anyone slapped one of your cheecks you should offer the other one? But Christians must have forgotten that when they burned alive tortured and did who knows what other atrocities during the Inquisition, to the herectics! Most of them didn't have a proper trial! And they might have not tortured herectics in public places, just to don't look so unhuman, they did, however, burned people at public places to let them know that all herectics would be punished. They made people fear to have other faiths, to control them and have the power!

The crusades, I cannot forget. Those "Holy Wars" were fights over territory in other words power. Muslims and Christians fought years over the Holy Land and the reason that motivated people was the fact that they should win to keep Holy Land in the right faith. Then again, religious leaders are manipulating people to do what they want them to (gain power) by using their religion and faith!

And those are just some facts out of many! Throughout human history we can find displays of this manipulation.

Sometimes you are the windshield. Sometimes you are the bug.

  • Aug 11, 2006

Persocom01

Persocom01

Seeker of the Truth

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Ok, reposting here:

After some research into the facinating phenomenon of Atheism, I have come to an interesting conclusion. Firstly, I have found that one of the main reasons why people choose to be Atheist is the desire to believe only in evidence rather than faith.

"I wish to propose for the reader's favourable consideration a doctrine which may, I fear, appear wildly paradoxical and subversive. The doctrine in question is this: that it is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true." - Bertrand Russell

This is an interesting intellectual position that I have examined, especially as it deals with the question of origins. Why is it interesting?

1. Just because there is no examinable evidence of something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. For example, I leave a can of beer in the fridge, and leave home. When I return an hour later, I find that the can of beer is missing. I automatically infer that someone must have taken my can of beer. Now how did I do that? I come to that conclusion despite the lack of evidence because no natural explanation is adequate for explaining my missing beer. Could it have been wind? No. Bird? Nope. Earthquake? Ridiculous. Therefore it must have been a person! Of course, this is not to say that we should believe in everything but instead as Sherlock Holmes observed, "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

2a. The most interesting part comes when an Atheist is asked about origins. By definition, an Atheist cannot believe that a supernatural existance was involved in creating anything in this world. (because there is no examinable evidence) Now the way an Atheist fills this interllectual vacuum is to ground his beliefs in scientific theory. The most common of which is Natualistic Evolution, (nothing supernatural) however as science progresses it has become increasingly apparent that Naturalistic Evolution cannot account for the incredible complexies of life. Take for example, the biomolecular processes that occur every day in one of the cells in your body. IBM spent 5 years building a petaflop supercomputer under the project name "Blue Gene" just to study them. http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/sj/402/allen.html The single process of protein folding alone takes anything up to a year for this computer to simulate. Yet in reality how long does a biological cell take to perform this incredible feat? 1 second or less. The absurdity of the notion that natural processes can result in the complexity we see in all life is expressed by evolutionist Franklin Harold:

"We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."

Note this he is obviously an evolutionist, however my point is adequate expressed. An Atheist who bases his belief in Naturalistic Evolution bases it on a large amount of mere speculation. (the destestable notion of faith rears it's ugly head here)

b. Now that doesn't deter most Atheists. So what if there aren't any good explanations now? It does not rule out the possibility that one will be found in the future. While this is true, it it contradicts the common Atheistic stand that he only believes in things that have evidence by commiting the logical fallacy of apriorism, that is, an assumption that a naturalistic explanation exists. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/a%20priori An even more interesting thing is what often happens when asked the question of the origins of life or the universe. An Atheist might respond in 2 ways:

i. Why does it have to be God who creates the universe? Can't the universe have always existed?

ii. I don't HAVE to believe anything. You can say you have no idea how life started and still be an atheist. You don't even have to know what abiogenesis is.

The problem with i. is that scientists agree that the universe has had a beginning 13 billion years ago, so it didn't always exist. The belief that the universe has always existed is not based on any observed evidence. Now everything that has a beginning must have a cause. To say that the universe began is, in itself a statement of faith.

The problem with ii. is that this stand can only exist in an interllectual vacuum. Once one agrees with the idea that life has had a beginning 3.5 billion years ago, there remains only 2 options: life began naturally (abiogenesis) or supernaturally. (God created) However an Atheist, by definition, rejects the idea that life began supernatually. Thus taking the stand of ii. is only possible even with this knowledge by commiting the logical fallacy of invincible ignorance. http://www.cuyamaca.edu/bruce.thompson/Fallacies/invincible_ignorance.asp

Thus I conclude that the common Atheist stand of wanting only to believe only in evidence is an ultimately indefensible position. The only logical position for an Atheist to assume is to admit that he does require a certain amount of faith.

  • Aug 11, 2006

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