Original Sin's invalidity.

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Evolution challenges the belief that humanity arose from two people known as Adam and Eve. Now, since Evolution has pretty much been proven, Adam and Eve are obviously products of fiction. One should next ask themselves "what does this mean for Original Sin?" Does Original Sin still apply if Adam and Eve never really existed and therefore never ate the apple God commanded them not to eat? I think that it does invalidate Original Sin but that's just me. I'm interested in what other people think.

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What aspect of the belief does evolution challenge specifically?

  • Dec 26, 2006

joemighty16

joemighty16

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It basically undermines the whole Original Sin buisiness. I never had any tuck with the "born in sin" thing, so I'm biased.

Religion for me isn't about technicalities like this...it consists of two parts - human relationships and deity-of-choice-relationship. I.e. (most) religions dictates fellowship and taking care of other people. Thats a basic way of life that everyone should have. Then its your relationship with your god of choice. That is determined by yourself.

I don't get the point of a lot of christian fundamental points, but I do believe in caring for other people. In principle I don't like the concept any original sin.

Life is a game played by gods who are bored and who fight over the rules.

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Quote by alexjohnc3What aspect of the belief does evolution challenge specifically?

Pretty much the whole Adam and Eve tale. Evolution states we evolved from other organisms, Adam and Eve don't fit in this explanation for the origin of humanity.

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This has to be taken as a story if you want to accept both this aspect of Christianity and reality. I can imagine how one could assert that the Eve and Adam's sin for eating the apple was just a story that was meant to show that humans shouldn't be go against authority or they'll suffer. That's just off the top of my head, so it may not be how people would interpret it given that the story doesn't fit with reality (especially if you realize that listening to authority unquestioningly is stupid).

The "original sin" doesn't need to be invalidated just because the story never took place. Couldn't it just be that it was a way of trying to show people that they are inherently bad (a belief held by the Church for a while, at least towards children until the Enlightenment) and thus have to work to be good, or something else possibly?

  • Dec 31, 2006
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Technically evolutionary theory does not contradict the Adam & Eve story. By definition evolution is a change in frequency of genetic traits through the generations. It is an ongoing process, so while it provides an alternative origin for mankind other than creation myths, it does not necessarily invalidate creation myths on the spot. It is Darwinsm that specifically states that humanity evolved from earlier lifeforms.

I do not believe in Original Sin because I reject religion in the first place. However, I do feel that the concept is utterly ridiculous. It implies that any human born to this Earth is automatically considered to have sinned simply because his/her 'ancestor', namely Eve, committed an offence. Only an immature and petty being could possibly come up and uphold the concept of Original Sin as both fact and law. It is akin to judging a person evil solely on the grounds that his ancestor was Adolf Hitler.

  • Dec 31, 2006

phoenixalcott

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actually, evolution hasnt been proven. sure, many facts prove to it, but how do scientists kno that such a form of the human body may hav happened to simply be a genetic mutation within the human beings DNA or possibly the RNA? u rly dont kno. evolution in animals, well thats a given. i believe that life on this planet started from simple creatures, such as single strands of nucleic energy, and then further evolved. so no1 rly knows if evolution in humans specifically is rly proven. and like espada sed, if evolution in humans is proved, it still doesnt contradict the adam and eve story.

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  • Dec 31, 2006
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Espada, if we know evolution to be true, then God didn't make Adam out of mud and then make Eve out of one of his ribs. Evolution doesn't directly contradict the story, but it's one of the implications of its validity.
Also note that evolution doesn't provide "an alternative origin for mankind other than creation myths". Origins aren't something dealt with in evolution as far as I know.

There are other times when God condemns people for several generations because of the sin of their ancestors (I'll try to find an example of this if someone wants it). The society that developed the Abrahamic religions probably felt that at the time if you screwed up it was fair for your children to suffer. I guess this could be a good way to stop people from being criminals.

  • Dec 31, 2006

phoenixalcott

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I definitely agree with ur pt alexjohnc3.

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  • Dec 31, 2006

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Quote by alexjohnc3Origins aren't something dealt with in evolution as far as I know.

Actually, Evolution does deal with the origins of humans on Earth. We have two ideas as to the origins of man, Adam and Eve, and Evolution. AE claims we were already in this form, Evolution claims we weren't originally in this form. This is why there are people who call themselves evolutionary scientists and creation scientists (if you could call them that).

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Quote by phoenixalcottactually, evolution hasnt been proven. sure, many facts prove to it,


You just said many facts proved to it. And then there is the fact that evolution is considered a scientific fact already.

Quote: but how do scientists kno that such a form of the human body may hav happened to simply be a genetic mutation within the human beings DNA or possibly the RNA? u rly dont kno.


Your statement is extremely weak, akin to saying "but how do you know the Sun DOESN"T revovle 'round Earth? Have you been into space? Have you actually watched the Earth move in orbit around the Sun?". Yes, we do not have 100% flawless certainty - that would require absolute omniscience. But evolutionary theory is the single best explantion for the origin of humanity, one that is supported by facts (evolution, natural selection), laws (Mendelian inheritance) and evidence (fossil record, carbon dating). If one wishes to denounce evolution, one should produce evidence/facts that refute it rather than simply claiming that a level of uncertainty exists. A level of uncertainty will ALWAYS exist, just as how you cannot be 100% certain that you are not the adopted son of your dad's dead twin or something equally fantastic.

Quote: animals, well thats a given. i believe that life on this planet started from simple creatures, such as single strands of nucleic energy, and then further evolved. so no1 rly knows if evolution in humans specifically is rly proven.


I think you mean nucleic ACID. Energy cannot evolve. Only living things evolve.
That said, evolution occurs in all living things. This is a scientific fact and it is an inevitable occurence arising from reproduction, natural selection, and other facts/laws/factors. To say that animals evolve while humans do not is perposterous. It implies that humans must be special in some way that they are exempt.

Quote by alexjohnc3Also note that evolution doesn't provide "an alternative origin for mankind other than creation myths". Origins aren't something dealt with in evolution as far as I know.


Incorrect. Evolutionary theory and the fact of evolution enable one to explain how an advanced lifeform can develop from even more primitive lifeforms over the course of a suffeciently large number of generations, i.e. how Homo Sapiens could have developed from Homo Erectus. This allows one to explain the origin of the human species.

  • Jan 01, 2007
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Quote by ProgramZERO

Quote by alexjohnc3Origins aren't something dealt with in evolution as far as I know.

Actually, Evolution does deal with the origins of humans on Earth.


Sorry, I was thinking about the origins of life itself on Earth, not human origins. You're right though, evolution does deal with the origins of human beings.

Quote by ProgramZEROWe have two ideas as to the origins of man, Adam and Eve, and Evolution. AE claims we were already in this form, Evolution claims we weren't originally in this form.


We have more than two concepts of how humans were created. Don't forget about the many other mythologies besides the Abrahamic ones.

Quote by ProgramZEROThis is why there are people who call themselves evolutionary scientists and creation scientists (if you could call them that).


No, some creationists call themselves creation scientists in order to try to be credible even though they don't adhere to scientific principals, like methodological naturalism.

  • Jan 01, 2007

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Quote by alexjohnc3No, some creationists call themselves creation scientists in order to try to be credible even though they don't adhere to scientific principals, like methodological naturalism.

LOL! Scientists only by name.

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adam and eva... pure fiction.
I believe in science and evolution.
And i wonder... what about before big bang, god and pre universe? hehehhehe

  • Jan 24, 2007

Zyndarius

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A sin has its meaning by your believs and way of living, if u do not consider things as a sin then they are hardly called like it.

Obviously there are certain conceptions of reality that threaten the human integrity, those could be called original sins.

"Every spilled tear, feeds the roots, of a tree which the heavens will reach."

  • Jan 24, 2007

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Quote by krow666adam and eva... pure fiction.
I believe in science and evolution.
And i wonder... what about before big bang, god and pre universe? hehehhehe

I don't know. Maybe the universe is just a series of big bangs and big crunches?

Sleeping peacefully on the edges of No Man's Land... Not all good is rewarded, not all evil is punished.

DarkIngram

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Quote by ProgramZEROEvolution challenges the belief that humanity arose from two people known as Adam and Eve. Now, since Evolution has pretty much been proven, Adam and Eve are obviously products of fiction.

Are you sure?

A rejection of the Adam-and-Eve account in Genesis starts a chain reaction that ends up in almost total rejection of everything the Bible teaches. But rejecting the Bible leaves us with some rather puzzling questions, questions that only the Bible can satisfactorily answer. For example:

I. WHY DO PEOPLE DO BAD THINGS?

The Bible account about Adam and Eve says that they were given a threefold commission: to populate the earth; to cultivate and beautify it; to lovingly care for its animal population. (Genesis 1:28) Along with this commission, they were placed under one restriction. It was imposed as a test of their obedience to God, for obedience to his instructions would be absolutely necessary in order for them to carry out their duties successfully...

But Adam and Eve disobediently chose to do things their own way, ignoring God and his instructions. The result? Romans 5:12 explains: "Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned." So, according to the Bible, the basic reason why people do bad things is inheritance--we have inherited sinful, wrong tendencies from our first parents, Adam and Eve...

Now, if we do not accept the Bible account of Adam and Eve as factual, then how do we satisfactorily explain why people, despite the fact that they may want peace and happiness, continue to do bad things?

II. WHY DO PEOPLE GET SICK AND EVENTUALLY DIE?

Does science have the answer? In commenting on the findings of science one reporter admitted that Tubingen professor Friedhelm Schneider has established that "nothing supports [the view] that death is tied to the concept of life as a physical necessity."

However, the Bible explains that Adam and Eve's rebellious course resulted in their losing God's favor and the opportunity of living forever in an earthly paradise. The perfect bodies that God had given them began to deteriorate, finally to the point of death. Now prone to sickness and death, they could only bring forth children similarly handicapped. "Who can produce someone clean out of someone unclean?" Job once asked and then went on to answer: "There is not one." (Job 14:4) As each generation gets farther away from mankind's perfect start, imperfections increase...

If we do not accept the Bible's account of Adam and Eve, then how do we explain why, despite technological and scientific progress, man continues to get sick and die?

III. WHY HAS GOD PERMITTED WICKEDNESS FOR SO LONG?

In effect Adam and Eve rejected God-rule for man-rule. To what did this lead? Some 3,000 years later King Solomon explained at Ecclesiastes 8:6-9: "The calamity of mankind is abundant upon them . . . during the time that man has dominated man to his injury."

German Chancellor Helmut Schmidt backed up the truthfulness of those words in a television interview in June of 1981 when he said: "We humans . . . have always only partially governed the world, and most of the time very badly. . . . We have never governed it in total peace."

By permitting man to rule himself for 6,000 years, God has allowed time for it to be demonstrated that man is unable "to direct his step"; God-rule is to be preferred. (Jeremiah 10:23) Thus, God stands vindicated. So it is quite apparent that Adam and Eve made a disastrous choice...

But without the Genesis account of Adam and Eve, what reasonable explanation is there for why God has permitted wickedness for so long?

IV. IS THERE ANY HOPE FOR THE FUTURE?

Yes, there is hope. Immediately after Adam and Eve rebelled, God promised that not all was lost. He foretold a "seed" who would eventually restore righteous conditions and do away with badness. (See Genesis 3:15; Romans 16:20; Revelation 12:7-12; 20:1-3.) This "seed" turned out to be Jesus Christ, who ransomed mankind and prepared the way for restoring God-rule for the benefit of obedient people. When will this happen?

Bible chronology and world conditions indicate that God will act shortly. His established kingdom, which Jehovah's Witnesses are busily preaching as mankind's only hope, will restore to obedient mankind the prospects of everlasting life in the perfect state originally enjoyed by Adam and Eve. If we reject what the Bible says about Adam and Eve, then, in the face of worsening world conditions, what hope for the future would we have?
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Sin put man out of harmony with his Creator. It thereby damaged not only his relations with God but also his relations with the rest of God's creation, including damage to man's own self, to his mind, heart, and body. It brought consequences of enormous evil upon the human race...

The conduct of the human pair immediately revealed this disharmony. Their covering portions of their divinely made bodies and thereafter their attempting to hide themselves from God were clear evidences of the alienation that had taken place within their minds and hearts. (Genesis 3:7, 8) Sin thus caused them to feel guilt, anxiety, insecurity, shame. This illustrates the point made by the apostle at Romans 2:15, that God's law was 'written on man's heart'; hence a violation of that law now produced an internal upheaval within man, his conscience accusing him of wrongdoing. In effect, man had a built-in lie detector that made impossible his concealing his sinful state from his Creator; and God, responding to the man's excuse for his changed attitude toward his heavenly Father, promptly inquired: "From the tree from which I commanded you not to eat have you eaten?" (Genesis 3:9-11)

To be true to himself, as well as for the good of the rest of his universal family, Jehovah God could not countenance such a sinful course, on the part of either his human creatures or the spirit son turned rebel. Maintaining his holiness, he justly imposed the sentence of death on them all. The human pair were then expelled from God's garden in Eden, hence cut off from access to that other tree designated by God as "the tree of life." (Genesis 3:14-24)

Romans 5:12 states that "through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned." (Compare 1 John 1:8-10.) Some have explained this as meaning that all of Adam's future offspring shared in Adam's initial act of sin because, as their family head, he represented them and thereby made them, in effect, participants with him in his sin. The apostle, however, speaks of death as 'spreading' to all men, which implies a progressive rather than a simultaneous effect on Adam's descendants...

Additionally, the apostle goes on to speak of death as ruling as king "from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression by Adam." (Romans 5:14) Adam's sin is rightly called a "transgression" since it was an overstepping of a stated law, an express command of God to him. Also, when Adam sinned, it was of his own free choice, as a perfect human who was free from disabilities. Clearly, his offspring have never enjoyed that state of perfection. So, these factors seem out of harmony with the view that 'when Adam sinned, all of his as yet unborn descendants sinned with him.' For all of Adam's descendants to be held accountable as participants in Adam's personal sin would require some expression of will on their part as to having him as their family head. Yet none of them in reality willed to be born of him, their birth into the Adamic line resulting from the fleshly will of their parents. (John 1:13)

The evidence, then, points to a passing on of sin from Adam to succeeding generations as a result of the recognized law of heredity. This is evidently what the psalmist refers to in saying: "With error I was brought forth with birth pains, and in sin my mother conceived me." (Psalm 51:5) Sin, along with its consequences, entered and spread to all the human race not merely because Adam was the family head of the race but because he, not Eve, was its progenitor, or human life source. From him, as well as from Eve, his offspring would inescapably inherit not merely physical characteristics but also personality traits, including the inclination toward sin. (Compare 1 Corinthians 15:22, 48, 49)

Paul's words also point to this conclusion when he says that "just as through the disobedience of the one man [Adam] many were constituted sinners, likewise also through the obedience of the one person [Christ Jesus] many will be constituted righteous." (Ro 5:19) Those to be "constituted righteous" by Christ's obedience were not all immediately so constituted at the moment of his presenting his ransom sacrifice to God, but they progressively come under the benefits of that sacrifice as they come to exercise faith in that provision and become reconciled to God. (John 3:36; Acts 3:19) So, too, progressive generations of Adam's descendants have been constituted sinners as they have been conceived by their innately sinful parents in Adam's line...

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Quote: I. WHY DO PEOPLE DO BAD THINGS?

The Bible account about Adam and Eve says that they were given a threefold commission: to populate the earth; to cultivate and beautify it; to lovingly care for its animal population. (Genesis 1:28) Along with this commission, they were placed under one restriction. It was imposed as a test of their obedience to God, for obedience to his instructions would be absolutely necessary in order for them to carry out their duties successfully...

But Adam and Eve disobediently chose to do things their own way, ignoring God and his instructions. The result? Romans 5:12 explains: "Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned." So, according to the Bible, the basic reason why people do bad things is inheritance--we have inherited sinful, wrong tendencies from our first parents, Adam and Eve...


I already destroyed your concept of sins inheritance... and so I shall again. As you stated before, the more sins we cause the lesser our life span, if so why shall people during the middleages live a shorter life rather than people during these current times? If sin is inherited, also if so then wouldn't everyone just be doing bad things...

Quote: II. WHY DO PEOPLE GET SICK AND EVENTUALLY DIE?

Does science have the answer? In commenting on the findings of science one reporter admitted that Tubingen professor Friedhelm Schneider has established that "nothing supports [the view] that death is tied to the concept of life as a physical necessity."

However, the Bible explains that Adam and Eve's rebellious course resulted in their losing God's favor and the opportunity of living forever in an earthly paradise. The perfect bodies that God had given them began to deteriorate, finally to the point of death. Now prone to sickness and death, they could only bring forth children similarly handicapped. "Who can produce someone clean out of someone unclean?" Job once asked and then went on to answer: "There is not one." (Job 14:4) As each generation gets farther away from mankind's perfect start, imperfections increase...

If we do not accept the Bible's account of Adam and Eve, then how do we explain why, despite technological and scientific progress, man continues to get sick and die?


As stated above, if we "humans" continue to deterioate, then shouldn't we be living like what... for 1 year then dieing like a fly...

Quote: III. WHY HAS GOD PERMITTED WICKEDNESS FOR SO LONG?

In effect Adam and Eve rejected God-rule for man-rule. To what did this lead? Some 3,000 years later King Solomon explained at Ecclesiastes 8:6-9: "The calamity of mankind is abundant upon them . . . during the time that man has dominated man to his injury."

German Chancellor Helmut Schmidt backed up the truthfulness of those words in a television interview in June of 1981 when he said: "We humans . . . have always only partially governed the world, and most of the time very badly. . . . We have never governed it in total peace."

By permitting man to rule himself for 6,000 years, God has allowed time for it to be demonstrated that man is unable "to direct his step"; God-rule is to be preferred. (Jeremiah 10:23) Thus, God stands vindicated. So it is quite apparent that Adam and Eve made a disastrous choice...

But without the Genesis account of Adam and Eve, what reasonable explanation is there for why God has permitted wickedness for so long?


There's no such thing as pure peace, also why would god favor so much of humans? If god did create everything, if he at first favored humans, why bother making animals? There's no judgement...

Quote: IV. IS THERE ANY HOPE FOR THE FUTURE?

Yes, there is hope. Immediately after Adam and Eve rebelled, God promised that not all was lost. He foretold a "seed" who would eventually restore righteous conditions and do away with badness. (See Genesis 3:15; Romans 16:20; Revelation 12:7-12; 20:1-3.) This "seed" turned out to be Jesus Christ, who ransomed mankind and prepared the way for restoring God-rule for the benefit of obedient people. When will this happen?

Bible chronology and world conditions indicate that God will act shortly. His established kingdom, which Jehovah's Witnesses are busily preaching as mankind's only hope, will restore to obedient mankind the prospects of everlasting life in the perfect state originally enjoyed by Adam and Eve. If we reject what the Bible says about Adam and Eve, then, in the face of worsening world conditions, what hope for the future would we have?


You do realize that this "seed" just created more chaos... also if you truly believe that there is hope in the future, you seriously have issues. Our whole planet is falling apart because of US.

Quote: Sin put man out of harmony with his Creator. It thereby damaged not only his relations with God but also his relations with the rest of God's creation, including damage to man's own self, to his mind, heart, and body. It brought consequences of enormous evil upon the human race...


If we at first was in harmony with "god" then adam and eve wouldn't have eaten the apple...

It's a sad thing you haven't learned from your past mistakes...

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  • Jan 27, 2007

ProgramZERO

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Quote by DarkIngramI. WHY DO PEOPLE DO BAD THINGS?

The reason people do bad things are numerous. You don't need the bible to answer that question and the belief that you do is simply dumb. The reason people do bad things like kill or steal is because, depending on the circumstances, people want something they can't get or they are being wronged. For example, if I was feeling greedy, a natural human emotion, I would be more prone to stealing.

Quote by DarkIngramII. WHY DO PEOPLE GET SICK AND EVENTUALLY DIE?

Diseases are caused sometimes by micro-organisms and sometimes by detrimental genes. Simple science. As for death, it's a tough puzzle to crack but for you to point towards Genesis for the answer is silly. Many other different religions and cultures have an explanation for death but they are unsubstantiated just like the Adam and Eve explanation.

Quote by DarkIngramIII. WHY HAS GOD PERMITTED WICKEDNESS FOR SO LONG?

Because God is in reality NOT benevolent. Science doesn't deal with questions like these since such questions involve a fictional character. Scientific minds would not bother with the question "why doesn't Peter Pan wear blue?" I find it evil to blame all humanity for the actions of two individuals. Is that truly benevolent? I think not.

Quote by DarkIngramIV. IS THERE ANY HOPE FOR THE FUTURE?

Yes, there is. During the Cold War Era, everyone asked that question and we have been able to get along and we have avoided WWIII. It's the same today, we can still make friends out of our enemies.

Sleeping peacefully on the edges of No Man's Land... Not all good is rewarded, not all evil is punished.

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Ooooh, man, the extremist again.

Science doesn't contradict Religion. Neither the other way around. UNLESS YOU WANT TO GO TO THE EXTREMES.

Adam- "The Man"
Eve- "The Woman"
That's the direct translation from Hebrew.

That means that they represent Humanity. They are simbols.

If you read the Genesis, you'll see that there were other humans. (otherwise, who married Set?) Cain and Abel were actually a separated oral tradition,
but later, when the Genesis was written, they were Adam and Eve first children.

Some books of the Bible are simbols. The original sin story is a true reflection of a true Human condition.

We are inclined to do evil. Survival is encripted in our genes. My own survival, your own. The survival of our own genes trougth our children. That's the origin of selfishness. The origin of murder, infanticide, destruction of the ones who are different from us, war.

Take male lions as an example. They are excellent fathers, but they kill the cubs of others males.

But lions aren't evil. Humans are able to make evil out of a nature inclination. Why? Because WE ARE INTELLIGENT. What makes us different is the capacity to reach other person, a stranger, and make him or her our FELLOW, our brothers and sisters.

About the tie between original sin and death... I have asked seminarist and nuns that once in a while councel us in the cathechism... Haven't got an answer that satisfy me, because I'm faithfull, but I also read Science and History... as hobbies (really!)

How does religion explains death under the ligth of modern science?

What I have more or less understood is that it refers to the death of the soul. Trougth soul is inmortal, being lost from the destiny meant for it, the return to God, is like a second, eternal death.

Death, illness, entrophy, stars dying, black holes, massive extinctions... death is part of life. It means new begginigns.

ORIGINAL SIN (DEATH) IS A STEP FOR REDEPTIOM (ETERNAL LIFE).

Man, you're hard. You have got to be flexible in your beliefs.


  • Jan 30, 2007
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Gotta love Religious debates, they always end up in one side or both sides calling the other sides belief stupid. The more refined the person, the more eloquently they attack the other side.

Now, mireya2 has the right idea, constructive ideas, without attacks. This is the way debate should be, no matter the topic, but it is unfortunate that this is usually not the case, especially in religious debates.

There are many proofs for evolutionary theory, as well as a lot of holes. The same can be said for Creationism. Since I have neither the time nor patience to read a book of Evolutionary theory, or finish reading the Bible, I'll leave it at that.

  • Jan 30, 2007

cyberfrogX

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There has been a slight misunderstinding when people think of what the "apple" gave us... First of all, this story has been taken far too literally. As mireya2 hinted, it is a general story, not as specific as most seem to think. The "apple" represents the advent of man getting the "knowledge of the angels". Many seem to think that this was science and reason. It was not. Humans already possessed such capabilities. The knowledge that the Bible is talking about is the ability to distinguish "Good" from "Evil". This is not in the subjective sense of being wronged, for many mammals possess that. This is the ability to judge an action of being wrong regardless of who goes through with that action. In the very nature of coming to know these things, Man and Woman fell to sin.
It was not simply something that could be taken away from their descendants, so all humans were under the veil of this sin by their upbringing into a sinful society. Unlike the angels, we did not have the discipline and wisdom to refrain from doing what we knew to be wrong. This is heavily because of our physical bodies and their instincts. These instincts, that were originally meant to keep us safe, now had to be regulated so that humans could co-exist. The new perspectives of good and evil, virtue and vice, order and chaos all put a bit of a bad spin on some of the more primitive acts of instinct.
There is another misconseption about the nature of sin. Instinct itself does not lead to evil, it is when one knows the disposition of their actions and decides to go ahead with an action that one knows to be "looked down upon" that one commits an evil.
Sin isn't inherited through blood, it is inherited through society. Sin spread as does a disease, not like our genes.

To Darkroseofhell: Woman didn't "eat" because she suddenly felt to eat, she was decieved by the reasoning of another being whom she believed trustworthy at the time. Likewise, Man didn't eat Just because Woman told him to, but because she reasoned the same way with him as she had been reasoned with.

The lesson to be learned is not "Thou shall not eat apples from the tree of knowledge" but instead "Thou shall not disobey God"

I hope that one who asks for the opinion of others also has the decency to respect those opinions. Good night.

  • Jan 30, 2007

BladeSummers

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  • Jan 30, 2007

DarkIngram

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Quote by DarkRoseofHell I already destroyed your concept of sins inheritance... and so I shall again. As you stated before, the more sins we cause the lesser our life span, if so why shall people during the middleages live a shorter life rather than people during these current times? If sin is inherited, also if so then wouldn't everyone just be doing bad things...

The first human couple reaped the consequences of their own harmful course, but their offspring were affected too. (Galatians 6:7) Their progeny inherited imperfection, leading to death. Some find this more understandable when they consider the scientific fact that even now children may inherit diseases or defects from their parents. This can be so with hemophilia, thalassemia (Mediterranean anemia), coronary artery disease, one type of diabetes, and even breast cancer. The children are not personally at fault, yet they may suffer as a result of what they have inherited...

Quote: As stated above, if we "humans" continue to deterioate, then shouldn't we be living like what... for 1 year then dieing like a fly...

Some of the main hurdles, or factors, affecting man's life expectancy are habits, environment, and medical care...

Quote: There's no such thing as pure peace, also why would god favor so much of humans? If god did create everything, if he at first favored humans, why bother making animals? There's no judgement...

God-fearing men see in animals part of God's generous provision for human welfare. Animals have served man as burden bearers, as sources of food and clothing, as sanitation agents, and as helpers in the vital activities of plowing and harvesting. Their variety of form and color has delighted his eye; their habits and instincts have been and still are an extensive field for inquiry into the marvels of God's creative work. Though animals die in the same manner as man, they do not share his hope of a resurrection. (2 Peter 2:12)

In view of God's granting perfect man dominion over the various creatures of the earth, it was most appropriate that Adam be privileged to name these creatures. (Genesis 1:26; 2:19, 20) Man's having the animals in subjection placed upon him a stewardship for which he would always be accountable to God. (Luke 12:48)

Quote: You do realize that this "seed" just created more chaos... also if you truly believe that there is hope in the future, you seriously have issues. Our whole planet is falling apart because of US.

What chaos? Reason tells us that God must soon act to save the earth from man's ruinous activities, and Bible prophecy confirms this. But what will he do? The Bible says that he will "bring to ruin those ruining the earth." (Revelation 11:18) Just as a landlord ejects a destructive tenant, so God will "eject" those who ruin his beautiful creation, the earth...

The Bible states: "As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it." (Proverbs 2:22) This coming divine action the Bible calls Armageddon. (Revelation 16:16) Jesus also called it "great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world's beginning until now, no, nor will occur again." (Matthew 24:21) It will be even greater than the Flood...

Quote: If we at first was in harmony with "god" then adam and eve wouldn't have eaten the apple...

It's a sad thing you haven't learned from your past mistakes...

Did perfection require that Adam and Eve be unable to do wrong? The maker of a robot expects it to do exactly what he has programmed it to do. But a perfect robot would not be a perfect human. The qualities viewed as essential are not the same. Adam and Eve were humans, not robots. To humankind, God gave the ability to choose between right and wrong, between obedience and disobedience, to make moral decisions. Since this is the way humans were designed, the inability to make such decisions (and not an unwise decision) is what would have indicated imperfection. (Compare Deuteronomy 30:19, 20; Joshua 24:15)

For Adam and Eve to qualify as being created perfect, must all their decisions thereafter be right? That would be the same as saying that they had no choice. But God did not make them in such a way that their obedience would be automatic. God granted them the ability to choose, so that they could obey because they loved him. Or, if they allowed their hearts to become selfish, they would become disobedient. Which means more to you--when someone does something for you because he is forced to do it or because he wants to? (Compare Deuteronomy 11:1; 1 John 5:3)

How could such perfect humans become selfish, leading to acts of sin? Although created perfect, their physical bodies would not continue to function perfectly if not provided with proper food. So, too, if they let the mind feed on wrong thoughts, this would cause moral deterioration, unholiness. James 1:14, 15 explains: "Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin." In the case of Eve, the wrong desires began to develop when she listened with interest to Satan, who used a serpent as his mouthpiece. Adam heeded the urging of his wife to join her in eating the forbidden fruit. Instead of rejecting the wrong thoughts, both nourished selfish desires. Acts of sin resulted. (Genesis 3:1-6)

It's a sad thing you haven't learned from my post...
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Quote by ProgramZEROThe reason people do bad things are numerous. You don't need the bible to answer that question and the belief that you do is simply dumb. The reason people do bad things like kill or steal is because, depending on the circumstances, people want something they can't get or they are being wronged. For example, if I was feeling greedy, a natural human emotion, I would be more prone to stealing.

See James 1:14, 15 "Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin."

Even rich man may steal because of his greediness...

Quote: Diseases are caused sometimes by micro-organisms and sometimes by detrimental genes. Simple science. As for death, it's a tough puzzle to crack but for you to point towards Genesis for the answer is silly. Many other different religions and cultures have an explanation for death but they are unsubstantiated just like the Adam and Eve explanation.

Yup, many other different religions and cultures have an explanation for death.. but none of them can give satisfying answers...

Colossians 2:8: "Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ."

What a sad mistake it would be to choose such deceptive human philosophy in preference to acquiring true wisdom as a disciple of Jesus Christ, the second-greatest person in the universe, next to God himself!

Quote: Yes, there is. During the Cold War Era, everyone asked that question and we have been able to get along and we have avoided WWIII. It's the same today, we can still make friends out of our enemies.

Jeremiah 6:14: "They try to heal the breakdown of my people lightly, saying, 'There is peace! There is peace!' when there is no peace."

Jeremiah 8:15: "There was a hoping for peace, but no good came; for a time of healing, but, look! terror!"

And the threat of a nuclear holocaust still hangs over mankind. Clearly, the UN is not the messenger of peace that mankind needs...

At 1 Thessalonians 5:3, it is said of the wicked: "Whenever it is that they are saying: 'Peace and security!' then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape." These are the ones of whom Isaiah said: "Look! . . . Messengers of peace will weep bitterly." (Isaiah 33:7) Indeed, as we read at Isaiah 48:22, "'there is no peace,' Jehovah has said, 'for the wicked ones.'"
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Quote by mireya2Adam- "The Man"
Eve- "The Woman"
That's the direct translation from Hebrew.

That means that they represent Humanity. They are simbols.

Acts 17:26: "[God] made out of one man every nation of men, to dwell upon the entire surface of the earth."

Jude 14: "The seventh one in line from Adam, Enoch, prophesied."

(Enoch was not the seventh in line from all early mankind.)

Luke 3:23-38: "Jesus himself, when he commenced his work, was about thirty years old, being the . . . son of David . . . son of Abraham . . . son of Adam."

(David and Abraham are well-known historical persons. So is it not reasonable to conclude that Adam was a real person?)

Genesis 5:3: "Adam lived on for a hundred and thirty years. Then he became father to a son in his likeness, in his image, and called his name Seth."

(Seth certainly was not fathered by all early men, nor did all early men father sons at 130 years of age.)

1 Corinthians 15:45, 47: "It is even so written: 'The first man Adam became a living soul.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven."

(Thus denial that Adam was a real person who sinned against God implies doubt as to the identity of Jesus Christ. Such denial leads to rejection of the reason it was necessary for Jesus to give his life for mankind. Rejection of that means repudiation of the Christian faith.)

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