Suggestion: referencing scans

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DREAM

DREAM

Lord of Dreams

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i have a couple suggestions in which i would like to see implemented or at least seriously considered.

ALL WALLPAPERS MUST REFERENCE THE ORIGINAL SCAN USED IN THE DESCRIPTION AREA, UNLESS THE ART WAS 100% CREATED BY THE WALLER OR ARTIST. IF THE SCAN DOESN'T EXIST ON MT OR THE WALLER FORGETS THE SOURCE LINK; THEN HE/SHE MUST HOST IT ON A FREE PHOTO SITE LIKE PHOTOBUCKET.com OR IMAGESHACK.com.

far to often - wallers [even elite ones at that] frequently take original artwork which was created by another artist and do not reference the original art. although my knowledge of art is pretty solid; there are times when i wonder where the art came from etc. and more importantly if say an MT member created an original work- wouldn't he or she expect the work to be referred to and acknowledged by someone else whom used it in their artwork?

this is a fair and simple request.

i can also put out an analogy.
if a student writes a paper for a class and uses the words of another author / poet / writer etc. then they are expected to correctly acknowledge the said author.

i see no reason why this should not apply to wallpapers.

for the record- every single scan i have submitted and artwork correctly refers to the original artist. and of course my website contains the same information.

Tama-Neko

Tama-Neko

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I think this is a great idea. It's something I strive to do on all my walls because I feel it's a great resource for others to see what scan was used and to compare that with the final result.
However, I think this should be implemented as another field, where you would paste in the link to the source image (this is how I do this on DA!) because otherwise it's easy to loose the link in long descriptions (the only sort I tend to write). There would need to be some happy medium for allowing of multiple source scans though.
The only problem is that links will go stale after some time. I know a bunch of my old walls reference scans on MT that were eventually deleted (replaced by a newer scan, etc.) leading to 404s, and imagehosts tend to remove images periodically as well. In the short term, though, there shouldn't be too big an issue.
EDIT:
Also, I don't think this sort of thing should be required. I'm all for encouraging waller responsibility, but I don't think forcing it on everyone is the optimal solution.

candy-chan

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candy-chan

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Even more importantly I think wallers should credit the original artist or animation studio in the wallpaper's signature. Because after all, wallpapers go onto desktops, they are not meant to be looked at as an art gallery. But we cant force people to write certain things in their wallpapers, or force them to upload to hosting sites. It is their responsibility to credit correctly the artist.
However I do think we can add a line in the submission page saying we highly encourage to give proper credit.

MapleRose

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MapleRose

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Yes I agree, because I like to compare the original to see what is done. Also, it kinda annoys me that some people just put a tiny blurb at the end saying 'brushes are from devART'. Yes deviantART brushes are created for you to use, however, deviantART is a community, not an artist, so wouldn't it be more correct to link to the actual artist and/or deviation? (a lot of the artists do want you to do that). But I do understand that sometimes you forget where or who made the brushes if they're in the collection long enough. But we should properly credit the artist so that their art is recognized.

Same with the scans category. Some people upload doujinshi (usually cover art) they either bought or found somewhere. I'm not sure if this is covered under the policy or not...

Also, some people use other people's fanart (with or without knowing that it's fanart). And without knowledge, they don't give credit to the original artist. Question if anyone can answer: is fanart allowed in wallpapers even if you have the artist's permission?

Tama-neko brings up a good point though, because when I browse through some of the older wallpapers and try to compare the scans to the walls, the link doesn't work anymore...and there's probably no way around that.

However, I don't know how we can enforce this, quaranteen the wall if they don't do it? Seems a bit harsh, and people will get angry and complain.

asinine

asinine

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Quote by MapleRose
Tama-neko brings up a good point though, because when I browse through some of the older wallpapers and try to compare the scans to the walls, the link doesn't work anymore...and there's probably no way around that.

However, I don't know how we can enforce this, quaranteen the wall if they don't do it? Seems a bit harsh, and people will get angry and complain.


I agree really, i do think that it is a good idea.
But counting on the past threads and the mood of MT members nowadays... i have to say that most of them are unhappy and angry with the recent system and rules that applies to the new MT. I am not saying that those rules should not be implemented. But i think we should take a slower pace and let members try to adapt to now steaming situation that we have.

At the end of the day, i would always turn around and say.... "Egao Saku... "
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DREAM

DREAM

Lord of Dreams

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Quote by candy-chanEven more importantly I think wallers should credit the original artist or animation studio in the wallpaper's signature. Because after all, wallpapers go onto desktops, they are not meant to be looked at as an art gallery. But we cant force people to write certain things in their wallpapers, or force them to upload to hosting sites. It is their responsibility to credit correctly the artist.
However I do think we can add a line in the submission page saying we highly encourage to give proper credit.

i must disagree- putting the original artists name in the sig really doesn't help much as the toolbar will cover the text and i personally don't care for long rambling passages of text on walls.

since "something" must be typed into the description before submitting a scan or wall why not include a reference to the original artwork?

i assume a waller enjoyed another artist[s] work enough to devout a good amount of their free time to making a wall then they could be expected to link to the original artwork. it would only take them a matter of seconds to do so.

also the ideal spot is the description area; since that is what the viewer looks at when they view and download the wall. the wall is fresh on their mind and they may be inclined to view more of the artist's work.

Quote by MapleRose Also, it kinda annoys me that some people just put a tiny blurb at the end saying 'brushes are from devART'. Yes deviantART brushes are created for you to use, however, deviantART is a community, not an artist, so wouldn't it be more correct to link to the actual artist and/or deviation? (a lot of the artists do want you to do that). But I do understand that sometimes you forget where or who made the brushes if they're in the collection long enough. But we should properly credit the artist so that their art is recognized.

Same with the scans category. Some people upload doujinshi (usually cover art) they either bought or found somewhere. I'm not sure if this is covered under the policy or not...

Also, some people use other people's fanart (with or without knowing that it's fanart). And without knowledge, they don't give credit to the original artist. Question if anyone can answer: is fanart allowed in wallpapers even if you have the artist's permission?

well brushes, etc are in my estimation infrequently referrred to. i think that should be optional. i have several hundred brushes but i don't remember all of the authors and they make them available for people to use and create their own works. referring to a stock image is a good idea.

the artist on the other hand is different. Abe-san isn't creating art to be used in wallpapers- of that i am certain. so if i make a wall then i have an obligation to give credit the original artist.

re: scans- a description of the artist and artbook should be provided as well.
for instance "Artwork is by Rain from "IO Art of the Wired" etc.

fanart- it could be argued that all walls that aren't totally created by the waller are fan-art.
but if the artist is say someone on deviantart then they ideally should be given permission verus a famous artist. it is a quasi- grey area.

i remember a wall that i viewed on MT and it was a fan-art of Motoko from GITS. i recognized the art from deviantART and researched it and provided the waller with a link and he then got the artists permission to use it. In the original description the waller wasn't sure whom created the artwork, so i looked into it. he updated the link etc.
but it could be a potentially bad situation if the Deviant came unto MT and recognized a wall that used his art but didn't reference the artist or work nor ask for permission.

i really do think we can easily enforce this and at the very least highly encourage a reference since some text must be inputted into the description to upload a wallpaper, doujinshi or scan.

Quote by Tama-NekoHowever, I think this should be implemented as another field, where you would paste in the link to the source image (this is how I do this on DA!) because otherwise it's easy to loose the link in long descriptions (the only sort I tend to write). There would need to be some happy medium for allowing of multiple source scans though.

another field is a great idea but i suggested just providing a link in the the description area to save Shequel additional programming duties.

re: broken links. that is true but i think providing a valid link or reference when the wall is submitted will provide the maximum benefits- since the first few days of submission is the window when a wall is viewed most. if a wall is of the utmost quality and highlighted then the window is obviously increased.

w00tazn

w00tazn

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I think crediting the original artist on the wallpaper itself is something that should be required in all instances.

Who cares if you can't see it all the time? It's there to give credit, not something to add any meaning to the wallpaper itself.

I don't really see a point in linking the original scan in the posts as a requirement. Sometimes people like to show off the differences between the original, but other times people would rather not have the scan shared. You wouldnt want to see 20 wallpapers all using the same scan would you?

What about the people who don't even use art from scans? The kind of people that vector images from screenshots or other sources. Do you expect them to upload them to an image host so everyone can see? It's obvious they probably copied whatever source image they used verbatim so i don't see a reason to link it.

If you are angry because YOU yourself arnt getting credit for scanning in the image, then you should reevaluate sharing the scans. You didn't draw the images in the scans yourself. You are just taking someone else's work and sharing it for everyone else with or without the original creator's permission. Plus a lot of times people don't take the time to make note where everything used comes from. I have brushes and scans that I downloaded over a year ago that I may or may not use in the future. How am I supposed to know who the heck uploaded the scan I'm using? What if I downloaded a scan previously from someone else and you come and upload the same image at a later date. Do I credit both of you? It just doesnt make sense.

EDIT:
Oh yeah.

Another thing about wanting credit.
How about the 70% of Minitokyo that has uploaded scans with the only description as "not my scan."

Why should we give them credit for stealing something from someone else?

candy-chan

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Quote by DREAMalthough my knowledge of art is pretty solid; there are times when i wonder where the art came from etc.


Quote by DREAMevery single scan i have submitted and artwork correctly refers to the original artist. and of course my website contains the same information.


Quote by DREAMand i personally don't care for long rambling passages of text on walls.


Quote by DREAM i think that should be optional. i have several hundred brushes but i don't remember all of the authors and they make them available for people to use and create their own works. referring to a stock image is a good idea.


Quote by DREAM
i remember a wall that i viewed on MT and it was a fan-art of Motoko from GITS. i recognized the art from deviantART and researched it and provided the waller with a link and he then got the artists permission to use it. In the original description the waller wasn't sure whom created the artwork, so i looked into it. he updated the link etc.


Quote by DREAMi have always used 1600x1200 as my canvas on a 1024x768 and 1280x1024 monitor.

I see a pattern here.

DREAM

DREAM

Lord of Dreams

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Quote by w00taznI think crediting the original artist on the wallpaper itself is something that should be required in all instances.

Who cares if you can't see it all the time? It's there to give credit, not something to add any meaning to the wallpaper itself.

I don't really see a point in linking the original scan in the posts as a requirement. Sometimes people like to show off the differences between the original, but other times people would rather not have the scan shared. You wouldnt want to see 20 wallpapers all using the same scan would you?

a very strange response indeed. your first 2 sentences contradict each other. by "sharing the scan" do you mean allowing a viewer to see how much or how little work when into the wall?

Quote by w00taznWhat about the people who don't even use art from scans? The kind of people that vector images from screenshots or other sources. Do you expect them to upload them to an image host so everyone can see? It's obvious they probably copied whatever source image they used verbatim so i don't see a reason to link it.

in answer to your query, yes if a screencap is used then it should be hosted. if someone has the mental capacity to use VLC to snapshot a GIF image, then wall it- he/she should be able to find a way to host it on a free photo site. if they are unable they can email me and i will provide a half dozen or so links.

Quote by w00taznIf you are angry because YOU yourself arnt getting credit for scanning in the image, then you should reevaluate sharing the scans. You didn't draw the images in the scans yourself. You are just taking someone else's work and sharing it for everyone else with or without the original creator's permission. Plus a lot of times people don't take the time to make note where everything used comes from. I have brushes and scans that I downloaded over a year ago that I may or may not use in the future. How am I supposed to know who the heck uploaded the scan I'm using? What if I downloaded a scan previously from someone else and you come and upload the same image at a later date. Do I credit both of you? It just doesn't make sense.

i will make one thing very clear - wallers not referencing my scans is not my intention or purpose. i did not say a scanner must be acknowledged. i said an artist whom, created the artwork should be acknowledged.
should i apologize that yes, i have indeed posted over 700 scans of which many have been used to make walls? without a scan you wouldn't have a wall to make. if i happen to see a scan of mine which is used and the artwork isn't acknowledged then i will provide a link in the comment section since i obviously recognize the artwork. and i have done [and continue 2] do it with scans i didn't submit but know.

if you wish not to acknowledge the scanner or do not know where it came from etc. that is perfectly fine. i am suggesting that you
1) resize your scan, wOOtazn
2) then host it on photobucket.com or imageshack.com et al
3) and provide a link in the description section.

you are a very skilled digital artist so i suspect you could accomplish this task in say 30 second or so. is that 2 much to ask or suggest?

Quote by candy-chanI see a pattern here.


points not patterns.

candy-chan

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candy-chan

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points about your personal preferences and life experiences, yes. MiniTokyo is a community.

Quote by DREAMi said an artist whom, created the artwork should be acknowledged.


As far as I know wallpapers using copyrighted material are all posted in categories where you can already get information, an official site for most of all, and find lots of other scans and walls.

DREAM

DREAM

Lord of Dreams

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Quote by candy-chanpoints about your personal preferences and life experiences, yes. MiniTokyo is a community.

Quote by DREAMi said an artist whom, created the artwork should be acknowledged.


As far as I know wallpapers using copyrighted material are all posted in categories where you can already get information, an official site for most of all, and find lots of other scans and walls.

candy-chan what are you talking about? of course MT is a community.
life experiences? talking of personal preferences -may i ask why you, yourself a highly regarded Mt "Moderator" sometimes reference source material and other times don't? yet after i provide a link then your description magically gets updated.

the thread is about referencing artwork which you, me and other waller's use in our works.

you "fail" on your assumption of applicable information on artists.
take: Kaori Yuki:
no link to her website, no biography and 384 gallery items. so a member could possibly look thorough 16 pages of images to find a scan. or could follow a link provided in a description and take 5 seconds, perhaps a few more if MT is slow.

just imagine if i picked a very "popular" artist.

candy-chan

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candy-chan

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then maybe instead of complaining you could pm a moderator and submit them the missing information?

Quote by dreammay i ask why you, [...] sometimes reference source material and other times don't? yet after i provide a link then your description magically gets updated


Because sometimes I submit things at 5 am and forget some details? Or maybe because sometimes I don't think it's necessary to show the original scan as it is obvious what is "my" part and "the original scan"? These matters are personal choices wallers should have the right to make on their own. Enforcing one more useless rule will not help MT become more legal on the copyright issue.

bromithia

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bromithia

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It should be encouraged that the original scan is posted, but not required. Artists already get credit by the categories, unless the waller doesn't know who created the original scan, and puts it in the Unknown section.

This really isn't worth arguing over.

Saikusa

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Saikusa

~ scan-holic ~

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Credit is just polite, but nothing can be enforced.

For example, we had a devil of a time for two years to get people to credit where they got their scans from. TWO YEARS and people submitting scans still didn't understand the concept of credit where credit's due.

Honestly I like your idea, but I can not see it being enforced practically.

So yes it is nice to give credit, but no it can not be enforced. All that can be done is to continue leading by example.

MapleRose

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MapleRose

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Quote by w00taznI think crediting the original artist on the wallpaper itself is something that should be required in all instances.

Who cares if you can't see it all the time? It's there to give credit, not something to add any meaning to the wallpaper itself.

I agree there, it doesn't matter if you can see it while it's on your desktop. But since you're going to post a piece of work on the Internet that contain's other people's work, it's best to at least mention the original source, otherwise, that'd be like plagiarism (more on that later).

Quote by DREAMi must disagree- putting the original artists name in the sig really doesn't help much as the toolbar will cover the text and i personally don't care for long rambling passages of text on walls.

If the text is covered by the toolbar, then the 'long rambling passages of text' shouldn't be an issue.

Quote by w00taznI don't really see a point in linking the original scan in the posts as a requirement. Sometimes people like to show off the differences between the original, but other times people would rather not have the scan shared. You wouldnt want to see 20 wallpapers all using the same scan would you?

What about the people who don't even use art from scans? The kind of people that vector images from screenshots or other sources. Do you expect them to upload them to an image host so everyone can see? It's obvious they probably copied whatever source image they used verbatim so i don't see a reason to link it.

If you are angry because YOU yourself arnt getting credit for scanning in the image, then you should reevaluate sharing the scans. You didn't draw the images in the scans yourself. You are just taking someone else's work and sharing it for everyone else with or without the original creator's permission. Plus a lot of times people don't take the time to make note where everything used comes from. I have brushes and scans that I downloaded over a year ago that I may or may not use in the future. How am I supposed to know who the heck uploaded the scan I'm using? What if I downloaded a scan previously from someone else and you come and upload the same image at a later date. Do I credit both of you? It just doesnt make sense.

I think the original issue brought up in this thread isn't crediting the scanner but rather the scan itself, so that people know which part you've done and which part was done by the original artist. Otherwise, you may be inadvertently taking credit for something you didn't do, which is kinda like academic theft... in other words, plagiarism.

Okay, I admit that walling with someone else's work without giving credit isn't as serious an issue as plagiarism in the academic sense. But think about it, when you're writing an essay or research paper, it's okay to quote other sources and look at other people's ideas and build on it. But you must cite your sources, otherwise, you'd be taking credit for something you didn't come up with. Same with wallpapers. If you use someone else's art and built on it, without permission, you should cite your sources too. And while submitting in the correct category does in a way credit the artist (usually the creator(s) of the series, or the artist etc), it doesn't specifically lead to exactly where you got your ideas from. It's like citing the book in the bibliography, but not the page where the exact quote came from (which according to my teachers also constitute as plagiarism.

A guide on citing art and references can be found here: http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/46849943 (it takes a while to load though, since the file is big, but it's broken into parts in the description.

Now I realise a lot of that doesn't apply to MT, because we as wallers and scanners have no way of getting permission from the original artists of those scans, so we should at least give some credit by showing the original scans.

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