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God's Power...

Can he?

Yes
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No
21 votes
Head explodes
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Check your grammar people. "don't know nothing" is a double negative and thus causes misconceptions. The proper way of saying it is "knows everything" which sounds better and makes more sense.

For the topic, God is perfect in the ultimate sense of the word. Enough said. That's all there is to it.

In my theory, God made interventions during the time of the old testament which was included in the sixth day(Era or some period of a long time) of creation. With Moses, he found the tablets at the top of Mt. Sinai (don't know speeling). The commandments were already written. But I believe that God never enters the physical plane, thus using nature to perform his acts. i.e. parting of the red sea and the great flood.

I'm using nothing as a subject, not an adjective. So it isn't made into a double negative.

Plus, if god is so perfect and omni-whatever, (typing out the words seemed weirder everytime I type it now...) then that means it should be able to know everything including the things he doesn't know, and do anything including making things that exceed his power.

And... yet again, it doesn't mean that it was of divine interventions...

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Puddl3

Puddl3

The Vampiric Fork

aexiel,
yeah... the 'Nothing' thing sounds confusing, but you just have to understand the context.
Once again. Well if you are following the script of the Bible, Moses didn't just find the tablets there, he watched 'God's Hand' write them, twice. The first set he threw at all the sinning Israelites and then went back up to get a second, I'm sure God was happy about that... X-P

DarkRoseofHell,
If God is omni--- why does there have to be anything he doesn't know? Facts he doesn't know don't have to exist.
as for the making things that exceed even his power... well... I guess he could... but then... he'd... yeah that one is kind of a paradox.

and lastly the Biblical God does not exist in our realm meaning in his view outside of ours all this could make sense and our logic just can't comprehend. Or maybe it is just a bunch of paradox-mumbo-jumbo that disprove it. I don't know for sure. You decide for yourself.

I see you're wondering about my nationality. I'm Chinese. And I have a charming dispositions. That is, until someone pulls that old crack about Confucius Say, at which I go completely berserk and bite little children.

Umm... if I remember correctly, no Moses didn't watch "god" but rather like aexiel said, found it.

Anything omni pretty much comes with a paradox, which is why omniscient and omnipotent has issues.

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Puddl3

Puddl3

The Vampiric Fork

we're off-topic with this Moses thing...
but... uh... pick up a Bible and read Exodus for a little while... you'll see that Moses was up on Mount Sinai for over a month talking to God, as He informed Moses of all the laws He wanted the Israelites to follow, and the Tabernacle and the Ark and whatnot, and carved out the Ten Commandments on two stone tablets. that Moses then proceeded back down to the Israelites who were partying and worshiping statues they made and threw the stone tablets at them and destroyed the Golden Calf and got all pissed off, and then went back up to the top of Mt. Sinai and talked to God again came back down got two more stone tablets and brought them back up to have God write out the Ten Commandments again...
Come on, have you seriously never seen the old Charlton Heston movie?

I see you're wondering about my nationality. I'm Chinese. And I have a charming dispositions. That is, until someone pulls that old crack about Confucius Say, at which I go completely berserk and bite little children.

ProgramZERO

ProgramZERO

The Lost Generation

Quote by Puddl3Yeah... I guess He could make another God... Not sure why He'd want to do that... I mean look at the Greek/Roman Gods... You put a couple of them together and they start killing each other. Yeah... I don't think he'd want to do that...

Yeah, but could he make another power greater than himself. If he can, that means his powers aren't infinite since infinity is unsurpassable and if he can't, his powers aren't infinite.

Quote: You're just trying to sound intelligent (sorry for the Liberal tearing down your debatee part there, just how I saw it) by using a 'clever' little paradox... If God is omniscient why does there have to be a question in existence he doesn't know the answer to?

No, I'm being reasonable. It is a reasonable paradox. And the unanswerable question could be one God himself would pose.

Quote:
DarkRoseofHell,
If God is omni--- why does there have to be anything he doesn't know? Facts he doesn't know don't have to exist.

Could he make it so they exist? And facts aren't physical objects.

Quote: as for the making things that exceed even his power... well... I guess he could... but then... he'd... yeah that one is kind of a paradox.

Yes, it is.

Quote: and lastly the Biblical God does not exist in our realm meaning in his view outside of ours all this could make sense and our logic just can't comprehend. Or maybe it is just a bunch of paradox-mumbo-jumbo that disprove it. I don't know for sure. You decide for yourself.

What's there to be misunderstood? They're simple questions.

Sleeping peacefully on the edges of No Man's Land... Not all good is rewarded, not all evil is punished.

Puddl3

Puddl3

The Vampiric Fork

"Could he make it so they exist? And facts aren't physical objects."
ah... see that makes sense... yes... and then you get into the paradox...
but the original question doesn't force you into the whole paradox... I can't remember the original question now because you've both bent it in so many ways and I'm too lazy too search for it. so...

"What's there to be misunderstood? They're simple questions."
I don't know... that's what I mean... to us it makes perfect sense for them to be paradoxes but if you look at the question from God's viewpoint it may all make sense... sorry about the cliche saying here (just cover your eyes) "the only way you can know for sure is through faith in Christ." GAH! ACK ACK! sorry! It is true... but don't worry I think that's the end of it... at first I had left out the 'in Christ' part and felt it was still lacking the full on sickening feeling... it just seemed to give slight nausea. once again sorry if any of you puked your pants on that one.

I see you're wondering about my nationality. I'm Chinese. And I have a charming dispositions. That is, until someone pulls that old crack about Confucius Say, at which I go completely berserk and bite little children.

Quote: we're off-topic with this Moses thing...
but... uh... pick up a Bible and read Exodus for a little while... you'll see that Moses was up on Mount Sinai for over a month talking to God, as He informed Moses of all the laws He wanted the Israelites to follow, and the Tabernacle and the Ark and whatnot, and carved out the Ten Commandments on two stone tablets. that Moses then proceeded back down to the Israelites who were partying and worshiping statues they made and threw the stone tablets at them and destroyed the Golden Calf and got all pissed off, and then went back up to the top of Mt. Sinai and talked to God again came back down got two more stone tablets and brought them back up to have God write out the Ten Commandments again...
Come on, have you seriously never seen the old Charlton Heston movie?


Movie? Where'd that come from? Now I really wonder what you're talking about... anyways, I'm no bible freak so I don't know if I really care, but you seriously have yet to prove its of divine intervention, well, whatever. Its off topic anyways.

Quote: but the original question doesn't force you into the whole paradox... I can't remember the original question now because you've both bent it in so many ways and I'm too lazy too search for it. so...


The original question, can god become more powerful than itself? Umm, that itself is already a paradox.

O.o CLICHES! I hate cliches sometimes... or a lot of times... >.>

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I wrote this in philosophy class long ago:

The omnipotence paradox is a family of related paradoxes, having to do with the question of what an omnipotent being can do. These paradoxes are particularly concerned with whether or not an omnipotent being can perform an action that would limit its own ability to perform actions. The argument states that if the being can perform such actions, then it can limit its own ability to perform actions and hence it cannot perform all actions, and if it cannot limit its own actions, then it could never have performed all actions. This paradox is often formulated in terms of the God of the Abrahamic religions, though this is not a requirement. One version of the omnipotence paradox is the so-called paradox of the stone: "Could an omnipotent being create a stone so heavy that even that being could not lift it?" If so, then it seems that the being could cease to be omnipotent; if not, it seems that the being was not omnipotent to begin with.

??

If we refer to omnipotence, we should extend beyond the physical realm. An omnipotent being therefore exists both beyond the physical and spiritual realms. Asking that question only narrows the thought about an omnipotent being as a stone is a physical object and cannot possess a mass of infinity as it will occupy the same amount of space. An omnipotent being can perform all actions including those that can limit its own actions. This does not mean that the being will inflict itself with an inhibiting action for if it does(and only if it does) will certainly be incapable of performing actions. Just because an omnipotent being can perform all actions, doesn't mean it would. If it is all knowing, it knows what he can do and its underlying consequences. An omnipotent being possess abilities equal to infinity and so he can create a being only equal his own as there is nothing is greater than infinity. As nothing can surpass infinity, nothing else can surpass an omnipotent being but it can only equal it.

An omnipotent being can indeed create a being that surpasses it. Similarly It can create a rock that it cannot carry. By inhibiting itself a number of actions it can definitely be inferior to its creation since the omnipotent being can have power less than infinity if it inflicts itself with an inhibitting action thus its creation that originally equalled it can be superior. In the same sense, by inhibiting its own actions, a rock can be made that it cannot carry.

Here's the final statement: Just because one can do it, doesn't mean he will. Thought will always be put first before action. No paradox can exist without meaning. It's called a paradox because no one is yet to find a loop hole in it.

If you find something lacking (otherwise a hole) in my explaination please inform me as I may have missed some parts.

ProgramZERO

ProgramZERO

The Lost Generation

Quote by Puddl3"Could he make it so they exist? And facts aren't physical objects."
ah... see that makes sense... yes... and then you get into the paradox...
but the original question doesn't force you into the whole paradox... I can't remember the original question now because you've both bent it in so many ways and I'm too lazy too search for it. so...

The original question was "can God become more powerful than himself". I don't care what 'realm' you reside in, something being greater than itself is an impossibility.

Quote: "What's there to be misunderstood? They're simple questions."
I don't know... that's what I mean... to us it makes perfect sense for them to be paradoxes but if you look at the question from God's viewpoint it may all make sense...

I doubt the questions would look differently if viewed from God's eyes.

Quote: sorry about the cliche saying here (just cover your eyes) "the only way you can know for sure is through faith in Christ." GAH! ACK ACK! sorry! It is true... but don't worry I think that's the end of it... at first I had left out the 'in Christ' part and felt it was still lacking the full on sickening feeling... it just seemed to give slight nausea. once again sorry if any of you puked your pants on that one.

Christ? That will not help. I once had 'faith in Christ' and these unanswerable questions remained unanswerable.

Sleeping peacefully on the edges of No Man's Land... Not all good is rewarded, not all evil is punished.

priincess

priincess

?doing fun

if u have a big faith in Christ then u should know the answers by reading bible. bcoz evrything is there. but God hides the meanings n words by parables, bcoz it's useless for people who cant believe Him. it's like giving money for pigs.
God also wants us to think hard about His words, so that He cant know how hard we try to undestand Him.

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ProgramZERO

ProgramZERO

The Lost Generation

Quote by priincessif u have a big faith in Christ then u should know the answers by reading bible. bcoz evrything is there. but God hides the meanings n words by parables, bcoz it's useless for people who cant believe Him. it's like giving money for pigs.

Parables are unreliable. Even 'True' Christians have different interpretations of these parables. I doubt 'big faith' will make these parables any different.

Quote: God also wants us to think hard about His words, so that He cant know how hard we try to undestand Him.

...What?! o_0

Sleeping peacefully on the edges of No Man's Land... Not all good is rewarded, not all evil is punished.

priincess

priincess

?doing fun

spamming... wut's what?
yeah, many people who trust Him have different meanings of God's words. but almost all of them are the same. actually God guide us to know the meanings-if u hav big faith, of course

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onyhow

Survivor...

Quote by priincessGod also wants us to think hard about His words, so that He cant know how hard we try to undestand Him.

This is self-contradictory...

And I am totally confused...

Plus...god don't have all power...or he can control time...which he can't....(in Bible, when did you see god try to reverse time at all? Or stop it?)

ProgramZERO

ProgramZERO

The Lost Generation

Quote by priincessspamming... wut's what?

It means you talk about stuff that has nothing to do with the topic... I think...

Quote: yeah, many people who trust Him have different meanings of God's words. but almost all of them are the same. actually God guide us to know the meanings-if u hav big faith, of course

Yeah, that's why there exist several sects in Christianity.

Sleeping peacefully on the edges of No Man's Land... Not all good is rewarded, not all evil is punished.

Did no one read my previews most?!

priincess, I never read read the Bible thoroughly and I have a mere strand of faith in God. But then how come can I prove that he can do these actions with referral to physics and math? I have interpretted many of his miracles without using the Bible as basis. What the Bible contains cannot be referred to as God's words as they were written by man.

onyhow, God can control time as I have previously said that he is omnipotent and therefore can control time. In accordance to this he exists beyond time. If he did stop time, we wouldn't know because he is the only one excluded from it. Also time is a human concept and thus cannot apply to omnipotent beings as by definition. Meaning it is in every place, and every time.

onyhow

Survivor...

Quote by aexielDid no one read my previews most?!

priincess, I never read read the Bible thoroughly and I have a mere strand of faith in God. But then how come can I prove that he can do these actions with referral to physics and math? I have interpretted many of his miracles without using the Bible as basis. What the Bible contains cannot be referred to as God's words as they were written by man.

onyhow, God can control time as I have previously said that he is omnipotent and therefore can control time. In accordance to this he exists beyond time. If he did stop time, we wouldn't know because he is the only one excluded from it. Also time is a human concept and thus cannot apply to omnipotent beings as by definition. Meaning it is in every place, and every time.

Then why don't he turn back time to eliminate the evil? Why don't he stop his loved angel to be fallen? And such and such...

Omnipotence is impossible...the paradox itself is more than sufficient to say...that god is not even omnipotent to begin with...

You miss the point of free will. The angels were born with free will as to us humans. God did not create evil so we could suffer. But it was there so we know what is good. He let Lucifer fall because that is what Lucifer wanted, his own kingdom, Hell. If he went back to eliminate evil then there would be no point in creating other living creatures. Evil exists so that there will be balance. God created evil which sprouted in Lucifer, if God created it in the first place then why would he try to destroy it?

priincess

priincess

?doing fun

eliminate the evil? lol, wut for?
the devils r used in His plans.
nothing's useless from wut God has been created

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Quote: You miss the point of free will. The angels were born with free will as to us humans. God did not create evil so we could suffer. But it was there so we know what is good. He let Lucifer fall because that is what Lucifer wanted, his own kingdom, Hell. If he went back to eliminate evil then there would be no point in creating other living creatures. Evil exists so that there will be balance. God created evil which sprouted in Lucifer, if God created it in the first place then why would he try to destroy it?


Yeah but then theres that whole loop of omniscient and omnipotency which gets really annoying now...
Well, people do destroy their own creations sometimes, like if something doesn't go as plan, chances are they terminate it if it gets too out of hand.

Quote: eliminate the evil? lol, wut for?
the devils r used in His plans.
nothing's useless from wut God has been created


So, nothing is useless? So, what about that huge rock that sits there and do nothing? Its not useless? Oh sure, it has uses, like chucking it at someone and giving them a concussion...

And wow... does god use everything as its tool?

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royaldarkness

royaldarkness

Restless Soul

Quote: And wow... does god use everything as its tool?


Apparently.
Very manipulative indeed, God.

Quote: You miss the point of free will. The angels were born with free will as to us humans. God did not create evil so we could suffer. But it was there so we know what is good. He let Lucifer fall because that is what Lucifer wanted, his own kingdom, Hell. If he went back to eliminate evil then there would be no point in creating other living creatures. Evil exists so that there will be balance. God created evil which sprouted in Lucifer, if God created it in the first place then why would he try to destroy it?

If God knows everything that's going to happen, then there is no freewill because every decision that we make will eventually and inevitably lead to one conclusion. Hence the omniscience and omnipotence. Unless of course, He isn't omniscient and omnipotent then yes, there is freewill, and our future is unknown. And if God created Lucifer=evil, then Lucifer shouldn't be blamed for all things evil - God should be.

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onyhow

Survivor...

Quote by royaldarknessIf God knows everything that's going to happen, then there is no freewill because every decision that we make will eventually and inevitably lead to one conclusion. Hence the omniscience and omnipotence. Unless of course, He isn't omniscient and omnipotent then yes, there is freewill, and our future is unknown. And if God created Lucifer=evil, then Lucifer shouldn't be blamed for all things evil - God should be.

Really true...god is evil...for this...

Oh...and if god is all-knowing...then god's sadist...create beings to suffer...and enjoy watching...because it know that what it create will be good or evil...and just inflict pain on beings that it create that will go to hell...

beyondmeasure

From the mind comes the query.

I'll answer that with a question:

Can God create a rock which he cannot lift?

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