Warning: Undefined array key "HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE" in /var/www/minitokyo/www/includes/common.inc.php on line 360 What's wrong with Evolution? - Minitokyo

What's wrong with Evolution?

Do you believe in Evolution?

Yes, Evolution is a fact.
77 votes
No, Evolution isn't false.
5 votes
Your head explodes.
4 votes
Lightning strikes OP.
2 votes
Rolls eyes and leaves thread.
11 votes
Doesn't like OP.
1 votes

Only members can vote.

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Quote by DarkRoseofHell

Quote: Speaking scientifically, evolution is NOT fact. Which is why it is called Evolutionary THEORY. Don't think this means I don't hold evolution to be true or the most likely reasoning for change in species and its other claims, however, science declares very, very, VERY little to be FACT. Science only can say that one hypothosis is more likely than other hypothoses given the data so far. A theory is a strong hypothosis, which is backed up by much data and is generally held to likely be true based on the evidence.


That sounds umm... weird... If science declares little fact, so... me chucking a bottle and it flying away isn't true? Me punching the wall and making a dent isn't true? We typing on our computers or laptops and make sensible letters because we can see isn't true? I mean come on... if it's that little... then what the heck are we doing alive?

First, you're interchanging two words that are not interchangable: true and fact. These two words have different meanings, and thus, if i say it declares little fact, it has little to do with whether chucking a bottle is true.

Anyway, you're right, I may have worded that wrong or something. What we usually think of with scientific information which is applicable, such as evolution, is not scientific fact. The law of gravity isn't actually fact either, but its got a stronger basis than, say, a theory, and thus is a law, and is very very very likely true.

Now, science may say that, once you have dropped a book and it falls to the ground, the book moved from one point where you're hand was to another point where the ground is. This may be concidered a fact, and would be classified under data. That it fell is a bit of a conclusion, that gravity is the reason is as well, and that more would and do is closer to a matter of truth, which science doesn't usually declare so concreatly, but instead may say "based on the evidence, it seems the most likely explination and this happened do to this, and that it will occure again..."

However, it allows that at some future time, more data might declare that conclusion false, and also there is some doubt, however small, that the thing happened as recorded anyway. After all, I said the BOOK moved in my example, but later analysis MIGHT yield the conclusion that the universe around the book moved and it simply appeared to me that the book moved when in fact the book stayed where it was. This, right now, seems the less likely conclusion, which is why we, for now, go with the other.

Whether the book factually exists generally isn't a matter science declares one way or the other either, but it does appear to, and we don't have evidence to the contrary at the moment, so the best conclusion now is that it does and that it has acted as we think it did, assuming we are properly seeing it happen, which there is no evidence to the contrary again.

ProgramZERO

ProgramZERO

The Lost Generation

Quote by kingray100I guess i didnt didnt say anything on this thread,same with mishmash,about evidence.Go look on the other popular threads and you will find loads of evidence that me and other people have pointed out because this thread isnt exactly my favorite.(not to mention theres too much things to say in this thread to mention ALL of the evidence.

Please post the evidence in this thread. Thanks.

Sleeping peacefully on the edges of No Man's Land... Not all good is rewarded, not all evil is punished.

kingray100

kingray100

Ryu,the half demon

Quote by ProgramZERO

Quote by kingray100I guess i didnt didnt say anything on this thread,same with mishmash,about evidence.Go look on the other popular threads and you will find loads of evidence that me and other people have pointed out because this thread isnt exactly my favorite.(not to mention theres too much things to say in this thread to mention ALL of the evidence.

Please post the evidence in this thread. Thanks.

Did I not say the evidence is elsewhere?If I tell you that it is elsewhere,and you are involved and interested with this subject,then I'm sure you have the energy to look a little in the popular religious threads.you will find your answers there.Thank you.

EternalParadox

Retired Moderator

EternalParadox

.:Enigma Mod:.

Quote: Did I not say the evidence is elsewhere?If I tell you that it is elsewhere,and you are involved and interested with this subject,then I'm sure you have the energy to look a little in the popular religious threads.you will find your answers there.Thank you.

That's a rather convenient way to avoid providing evidence isn't it, to tell others to find it themselves? The logical ramification of your argument is that you can't be proven wrong, because you can always come back and say that the evidence you mentioned has not been found by your opponents.

In any case, if I understand you correctly, the evidence you speak of is actually not evidence for the existence of God but merely evidence that certain physical events recorded in the Bible did in fact occur. We have geological evidence showing that indeed there was a massive flood in the fertile crescent region which could very well have inspired the Biblical story of Noah's Ark, but that physical evidence is not evidence that the flood was ordained by God. We also have followed the etymology of Biblical terms and came up with a close approximation for the location of the Garden of Eden. However, that a location which inspired the Eden story exists is also not evidence, in the scientific sense, for God's existence or intervention.

By its very nature, religion has no physical evidence. God is a matter of faith, and faith cannot be tested or measured. That Christianity may perhaps be the religion with the most physical evidence supporting that certain events recorded in its holy text did in fact occur does not make Christianity a "better" or "truer" religion than any other. Faith alone justifies itself, and no amount of physical evidence can prove or disprove it.

On a different note, Gau is correct to point out that the scientific method does not prove any theory true. Science can only prove something false, because it is physically impossible to test every single permutation of the variables that can affect the outcomes of a theory or hypothesis. Any theory is taken to be the currently accepted theory until the time when a case is discovered that negates such theory. At that point, a new theory emerges and the cycle continues. The theory of evolution in its current form is humanity's current best attempt at explaining how species change in their environment to ensure survival. We cannot prove it true, but until we find evidence that negates it, evolution will be the currently accepted theory.

And once again, to drive the point home, Evolution does not make any statement about a higher being and is therefore not mutually exclusive to the existence of God.

EternalParadox
Previously the Forum, Vector Art, and Policy Moderator

Quote: However, it allows that at some future time, more data might declare that conclusion false, and also there is some doubt, however small, that the thing happened as recorded anyway. After all, I said the BOOK moved in my example, but later analysis MIGHT yield the conclusion that the universe around the book moved and it simply appeared to me that the book moved when in fact the book stayed where it was. This, right now, seems the less likely conclusion, which is why we, for now, go with the other.


Aside from the fact that if the universe was to move because of a book.
1. That makes absolutely no sense.
2. Gravity is in which a piece of mass has a force of attraction and the bigger the mass, the stronger.
3. If we were to throw a book up and the universe was to move so it would see that it was going up, then we would literally be floating in air because we are an object like the book, an object like a star, earth, everything.

Though a theory is a theory, but it is backed up by evidence. But, an actual thing proven over and oven and nothing to prove it wrong is a fact. Such as me punching a wall and making a dent as I've said. Given I do punch the wall again, a dent would appear. Such thing as gravity does not exist, please tell me, what is causing us to fall? Please tell me why there's such thing as a solar system. Also, please tell me why the galaxies are formed in an eliptical shape if gravity was not in effect.

?(/??)?
?? ???
????????
????????

kingray100

kingray100

Ryu,the half demon

Quote by EternalParadox

Quote: Did I not say the evidence is elsewhere?If I tell you that it is elsewhere,and you are involved and interested with this subject,then I'm sure you have the energy to look a little in the popular religious threads.you will find your answers there.Thank you.

That's a rather convenient way to avoid providing evidence isn't it, to tell others to find it themselves? The logical ramification of your argument is that you can't be proven wrong, because you can always come back and say that the evidence you mentioned has not been found by your opponents.

In any case, if I understand you correctly, the evidence you speak of is actually not evidence for the existence of God but merely evidence that certain physical events recorded in the Bible did in fact occur. We have geological evidence showing that indeed there was a massive flood in the fertile crescent region which could very well have inspired the Biblical story of Noah's Ark, but that physical evidence is not evidence that the flood was ordained by God. We also have followed the etymology of Biblical terms and came up with a close approximation for the location of the Garden of Eden. However, that a location which inspired the Eden story exists is also not evidence, in the scientific sense, for God's existence or intervention.

By its very nature, religion has no physical evidence. God is a matter of faith, and faith cannot be tested or measured. That Christianity may perhaps be the religion with the most physical evidence supporting that certain events recorded in its holy text did in fact occur does not make Christianity a "better" or "truer" religion than any other. Faith alone justifies itself, and no amount of physical evidence can prove or disprove it.

On a different note, Gau is correct to point out that the scientific method does not prove any theory true. Science can only prove something false, because it is physically impossible to test every single permutation of the variables that can affect the outcomes of a theory or hypothesis. Any theory is taken to be the currently accepted theory until the time when a case is discovered that negates such theory. At that point, a new theory emerges and the cycle continues. The theory of evolution in its current form is humanity's current best attempt at explaining how species change in their environment to ensure survival. We cannot prove it true, but until we find evidence that negates it, evolution will be the currently accepted theory.

And once again, to drive the point home, Evolution does not make any statement about a higher being and is therefore not mutually exclusive to the existence of God.

But your forgetting another piece of evidence.The reliability of the bible.Everyone who opposes the bible and God is usually stuck with the idea of the bible"not being reliable".It is in fact proven that the bible's new testament is historically correct and accurate.The manuscripts recovered from around 100ad are definitely reliable and was not tampered with.There were also things that just about confirm God's existence and his works.There was a man named Josphus who was born in 37ad and he wrote was found out to ave written about Jesus himself.He says that there was a man named Christ and how he had many followers.He also mentions seeing him after his supposed death 3 days later,describing him as refreshed and healthy.Another man from around that time named Tacitus wrote about how crucifixion was in use at the time and how it was the most painful death one could go through.This all adds up to everything Christ did little by little.The jews at the time described him as a sorcerer of israel and how he made miracles for people.There are many types of evidence supporting Christianity but the best evidence is the thing we all doubt,the bible.Since we are all so skeptical of it,we turn and look for other explanations,and yet the bible is here.The reason I didnt want to mention the evidence here is because I am not only attached to other threads at the moment but also i didnt want to repeat ALL of the research and evidence again just because people dont want to search a little on the popular threads that i comment on.You people are so interested in this topic,and yet its too much for someone to look up something on the same site.Well, i gave you some information and I hope God speaks to you.
oh,and also,I already know that evolution doesnt mention a higher being,but its not like it isnt feasible.For all we know,it could be true!

naeylin

naeylin

Reya's spirit

Evolution of species is connected to DNA and environment, but I don't know why the Nature choose this system to create life. Only error of replication and mutation linked to environment allow evolution of species. It is not predictable because of environment.
The problem of Evolution is the human being and its capability to think.
Because of this the cycles of evolution are broken, the nature can't anticipate and counter ours noxious action. Try to think on what I've said, if human was not on earth don't you think evolution is a matter of cycles.
I don't follow the debate above so excuse me.
For what I've said I hope I'm not wrong and consequently I apologize for it.

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EternalParadox

Retired Moderator

EternalParadox

.:Enigma Mod:.

Quote: But your forgetting another piece of evidence.The reliability of the bible.Everyone who opposes the bible and God is usually stuck with the idea of the bible"not being reliable".

I'm not opposing the Bible. You fail to understand my point. My point is that the historical accuracy of the events in the Bible is merely physical accuracy and does nothing to show that God was the cause.

Even if you find physical evidence that indeed there was a parting of the Red Sea, even if you have accurate proof that indeed there was a flood that covered the entire world for 40 days, you cannot prove, in the scientific sense, that God exists or that those events were his doing. It does not mean that God doesn't exist, but that you cannot prove anything about him.

"God" is not a scientific construct, and therefore has no proof either in support or negation of that construct.

EternalParadox
Previously the Forum, Vector Art, and Policy Moderator

ProgramZERO

ProgramZERO

The Lost Generation

Quote by kingray100Did I not say the evidence is elsewhere?If I tell you that it is elsewhere,and you are involved and interested with this subject,then I'm sure you have the energy to look a little in the popular religious threads.you will find your answers there.Thank you.

I don't know of this evidence so how am I supposed to find it? These threads are HUGE and EXTENSIVE! You can't exactly expect me to comb ALL of the thread posts do you?

merged: 08-11-2007 ~ 09:03am

Quote by kingray100But your forgetting another piece of evidence.The reliability of the bible.Everyone who opposes the bible and God is usually stuck with the idea of the bible"not being reliable".It is in fact proven that the bible's new testament is historically correct and accurate.

How do you know this? How do you know the resurrection actually occurred?

Quote: The manuscripts recovered from around 100ad are definitely reliable and was not tampered with.

Doesn't mean they are true.

Quote: There were also things that just about confirm God's existence and his works.There was a man named Josphus who was born in 37ad and he wrote was found out to ave written about Jesus himself.He says that there was a man named Christ and how he had many followers.He also mentions seeing him after his supposed death 3 days later,describing him as refreshed and healthy.

Writing it doesn't prove it actually occurred.

Quote: Another man from around that time named Tacitus wrote about how crucifixion was in use at the time and how it was the most painful death one could go through.This all adds up to everything Christ did little by little.The jews at the time described him as a sorcerer of israel and how he made miracles for people.There are many types of evidence supporting Christianity but the best evidence is the thing we all doubt,the bible.

Again, a book isn't proof. You're basically using the bible to prove the bible. Are you reading what you're posting?

Quote: Since we are all so skeptical of it,we turn and look for other explanations,and yet the bible is here.The reason I didnt want to mention the evidence here is because I am not only attached to other threads at the moment but also i didnt want to repeat ALL of the research and evidence again just because people dont want to search a little on the popular threads that i comment on.You people are so interested in this topic,and yet its too much for someone to look up something on the same site.Well, i gave you some information and I hope God speaks to you.

Well, maybe we are also tied up in other threads.

Quote: oh,and also,I already know that evolution doesnt mention a higher being,but its not like it isnt feasible.For all we know,it could be true!

Yeah, nothing to indicate that beyond pure conjecture.

Sleeping peacefully on the edges of No Man's Land... Not all good is rewarded, not all evil is punished.

smileagain

Keep smiling! :D

Quote by EternalParadox

Quote: But your forgetting another piece of evidence.The reliability of the bible.Everyone who opposes the bible and God is usually stuck with the idea of the bible"not being reliable".

I'm not opposing the Bible. You fail to understand my point. My point is that the historical accuracy of the events in the Bible is merely physical accuracy and does nothing to show that God was the cause.

Even if you find physical evidence that indeed there was a parting of the Red Sea, even if you have accurate proof that indeed there was a flood that covered the entire world for 40 days, you cannot prove, in the scientific sense, that God exists or that those events were his doing. It does not mean that God doesn't exist, but that you cannot prove anything about him.

"God" is not a scientific construct, and therefore has no proof either in support or negation of that construct.

John 3:8
The wind bloweth there it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is ever one that is born of the Spirit

John 3:12
If I have told you earthy things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas because thou has seen me, thou has believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed

(all passages from KJV bible)

I think John 3:12 explains some of your thoughts, hopefully you will understand

XD

kingray100

kingray100

Ryu,the half demon

Quote by EternalParadox

Quote: But your forgetting another piece of evidence.The reliability of the bible.Everyone who opposes the bible and God is usually stuck with the idea of the bible"not being reliable".

I'm not opposing the Bible. You fail to understand my point. My point is that the historical accuracy of the events in the Bible is merely physical accuracy and does nothing to show that God was the cause.

Even if you find physical evidence that indeed there was a parting of the Red Sea, even if you have accurate proof that indeed there was a flood that covered the entire world for 40 days, you cannot prove, in the scientific sense, that God exists or that those events were his doing. It does not mean that God doesn't exist, but that you cannot prove anything about him.

"God" is not a scientific construct, and therefore has no proof either in support or negation of that construct.

But it proves the bible to be accurate,therefore saying the account of Jesus Christ and his works are true!Your saying just because the bible may be true on this and if it was true on this,then there still is no God.Of course there is!The bible was made to tell people about him.If all the accounts of history is correct,then that means the parts mentioning God is also true.Its not like a history book where its all history,and then suddenely a fake person comes out of nowhere just to change the pace of the bible.The bible is GODS WORD.so if you find God's word correct,would that mean God is there?

merged: 08-11-2007 ~ 08:38pm

Quote by ProgramZERO

Quote by kingray100Did I not say the evidence is elsewhere?If I tell you that it is elsewhere,and you are involved and interested with this subject,then I'm sure you have the energy to look a little in the popular religious threads.you will find your answers there.Thank you.

I don't know of this evidence so how am I supposed to find it? These threads are HUGE and EXTENSIVE! You can't exactly expect me to comb ALL of the thread posts do you?

merged: 08-11-2007 ~ 09:03am

Quote by kingray100But your forgetting another piece of evidence.The reliability of the bible.Everyone who opposes the bible and God is usually stuck with the idea of the bible"not being reliable".It is in fact proven that the bible's new testament is historically correct and accurate.

How do you know this? How do you know the resurrection actually occurred?

Quote: The manuscripts recovered from around 100ad are definitely reliable and was not tampered with.

Doesn't mean they are true.

Quote: There were also things that just about confirm God's existence and his works.There was a man named Josphus who was born in 37ad and he wrote was found out to ave written about Jesus himself.He says that there was a man named Christ and how he had many followers.He also mentions seeing him after his supposed death 3 days later,describing him as refreshed and healthy.

Writing it doesn't prove it actually occurred.

Quote: Another man from around that time named Tacitus wrote about how crucifixion was in use at the time and how it was the most painful death one could go through.This all adds up to everything Christ did little by little.The jews at the time described him as a sorcerer of israel and how he made miracles for people.There are many types of evidence supporting Christianity but the best evidence is the thing we all doubt,the bible.

Again, a book isn't proof. You're basically using the bible to prove the bible. Are you reading what you're posting?

Quote: Since we are all so skeptical of it,we turn and look for other explanations,and yet the bible is here.The reason I didnt want to mention the evidence here is because I am not only attached to other threads at the moment but also i didnt want to repeat ALL of the research and evidence again just because people dont want to search a little on the popular threads that i comment on.You people are so interested in this topic,and yet its too much for someone to look up something on the same site.Well, i gave you some information and I hope God speaks to you.

Well, maybe we are also tied up in other threads.

Quote: oh,and also,I already know that evolution doesnt mention a higher being,but its not like it isnt feasible.For all we know,it could be true!

Yeah, nothing to indicate that beyond pure conjecture.

Can you stop being so doubtful?people back in those days werent interested in telling lies about history since they were fascinated with it.If there is a book written near the living of Jesus,then its most likely reliable since people arent as stupid as today to write fictional history.Yes it does mean its true!truthful+during Jesus's life=truthful manuscripts.The reason also why Josephus didnt write much about Jesus is because he was a very political person and really only interested in his political opponents at the time.So stop being so doubtful of everything and realize that it wasnt the same as today where we dont care of what we do.

Quote by kingray100Can you stop being so doubtful?people back in those days werent interested in telling lies about history since they were fascinated with it.


Do note, yes they are. Mainly because back then, there were many wars, there were a lot of conflicts and oh do they love to control people...

?(/??)?
?? ???
????????
????????

kvlitz

kriegsage

The fact that Evolution plays ijime on Christianity and other non-senses.

To kill or not to kill? That is not the question.

Saa-chan

Saa-chan

ninja medical student

Just went through the thread and thought it was rather amusing. I have to say I agree with DarkRoseofHell. Don't forget that the Bible were written by men. I believe the Bible was written and put together to be a moral guide and of course to spread Christianity. It's easier to control/fool highly religious people by holding "God" over their heads since faith is pretty blind.

I've had so much science, so of course I believe in evolution. It's still occurring on many different levels everyday. For people who'd like to contradict this, please read any scientific article concerning new strains of antibiotics resistant bacteria. However, this belief in scientific theory does not prevent me from believing a God does exist. To reiterate what Eternalparadox has so nicely put already, God is based on belief, faith. It doesn't need any scientific evidence to support it. All I need to believe in God is my faith. On the other hand, I support evolution and all scientific discoveries, as long as there is scientific evidence. I don't hold them to be in conflict at all. I personally can't stand how creationists try to point to "evidence" that punches holes in evolution when they have hardly have any evidence to support their own theory. It's analogous to declaring "well, you don't have this 1911 dime" when the collection is only missing a few pieces, from someone who has nothing but talks of having some pieces. I have nothing against religion itself, just creationists who believe their theory can be supported by scientific evidence and that evolution isn't real.
Yes, the Bible can be used as historical evidence. It says some events occurred. It is still written by men, not peer-reviewed. Take it with a grain of sand. Yes, for all we know, maybe God did speak to those people, but it could also be propaganda. There's no evidence. I'll just leave stuff like that up to my faith. Scientific evidence isn't taking it anywhere. ^_-

priincess

priincess

?doing fun

the bible were written by 'special men'bcoz God chose them. n there r no mistakes in it.

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ProgramZERO

ProgramZERO

The Lost Generation

Quote by kingray100Can you stop being so doubtful?

Only if you stop being so gullible.

Quote: people back in those days werent interested in telling lies about history since they were fascinated with it.

No, people back then were just as capable of lying as people are today. It isn't difficult to lie. In fact, it was easier to lie back then than it is today.

Quote: If there is a book written near the living of Jesus,then its most likely reliable since people arent as stupid as today to write fictional history.

People back then were even more gullible as they were today. That may not be saying much but back then, people were stupid by today's standards.

Quote: Yes it does mean its true!truthful+during Jesus's life=truthful manuscripts.

Again, you state the manuscripts are truthful but you have yet to present convincing evidence to back up your claim. No, the bible isn't evidence.

Quote: The reason also why Josephus didnt write much about Jesus is because he was a very political person and really only interested in his political opponents at the time.So stop being so doubtful of everything and realize that it wasnt the same as today where we dont care of what we do.

Politicians back then were just as filthy as many today, perhaps even more so. They were after power so if they had to appease to the Christian masses, they would.

Sleeping peacefully on the edges of No Man's Land... Not all good is rewarded, not all evil is punished.

kingray100

kingray100

Ryu,the half demon

Quote by DarkRoseofHell

Quote by kingray100Can you stop being so doubtful?people back in those days werent interested in telling lies about history since they were fascinated with it.


Do note, yes they are. Mainly because back then, there were many wars, there were a lot of conflicts and oh do they love to control people...

you know nothing on this subject,darkrose.You assume that just because there were conflicts in their time means that they lie all the time when it comes to history.Wrong.

merged: 08-12-2007 ~ 05:07am

Quote by ProgramZERO

Quote by kingray100Can you stop being so doubtful?

Only if you stop being so gullible.

Quote: people back in those days werent interested in telling lies about history since they were fascinated with it.

No, people back then were just as capable of lying as people are today. It isn't difficult to lie. In fact, it was easier to lie back then than it is today.

Quote: If there is a book written near the living of Jesus,then its most likely reliable since people arent as stupid as today to write fictional history.

People back then were even more gullible as they were today. That may not be saying much but back then, people were stupid by today's standards.

Quote: Yes it does mean its true!truthful+during Jesus's life=truthful manuscripts.

Again, you state the manuscripts are truthful but you have yet to present convincing evidence to back up your claim. No, the bible isn't evidence.

Quote: The reason also why Josephus didnt write much about Jesus is because he was a very political person and really only interested in his political opponents at the time.So stop being so doubtful of everything and realize that it wasnt the same as today where we dont care of what we do.

Politicians back then were just as filthy as many today, perhaps even more so. They were after power so if they had to appease to the Christian masses, they would.

Being observant in the patterns of evidence is anything but gullible,ok?And people maybe capable of telling lies but thats not the point!Its been researched already and proven of how people were very serious about making history and retelling it to the best of their ability,no lies.People's intelligence does not involve the writing of the bible.It doesnt take much effort to write down something someone said to them.They might have been different ways they said things such as "God is holy" to "Holy is God" but that is understandable since the greek language back then was able to switch words around in a manor and still be correct.Yes i do have evidence of why these manuscripts are truthful!werent you reading my post?Im gonna point this out one last time!
1.People were serious about retelling the facts of history,no thoughts and lies are included into manuscript at the time unless the author says so in some type of way.In this case for the bible,it is true.
2.People who didnt believe in Jesus such as Josephus who was born in 37ad and the Jews of the time,mentioned seeing Christ and even some of his works!
3.It is proven that the bible IS HISTORICALLY CORRECT.When this is said,that is already half of the picture!
4.This evidence is presented by Scholars who are some of the most educated men in the entire world about Christianity.
5.Even atheists who go through evidence and studying have found the bible to be reliable and truthful.
The bible is far away from a fantasy novel or a book of lies.It is the truth written so people may understand things.The world has truly gotten the best of us but you can still change.

Saa-chan

Saa-chan

ninja medical student

I don't think darkrose meant they lie all the time. Don't twist what other people are saying, kingray100. People back then were by no means all virtuous and truthful. People were just as cunning and deceitful as they are nowdays... well, probably way more than now since there were no popular media outlets and rulers controlled everything.

merged: 08-12-2007 ~ 05:27am

Quote by kingray100
Being observant in the patterns of evidence is anything but gullible,ok?And people maybe capable of telling lies but thats not the point!Its been researched already and proven of how people were very serious about making history and retelling it to the best of their ability,no lies.People's intelligence does not involve the writing of the bible.It doesnt take much effort to write down something someone said to them.They might have been different ways they said things such as "God is holy" to "Holy is God" but that is understandable since the greek language back then was able to switch words around in a manor and still be correct.Yes i do have evidence of why these manuscripts are truthful!werent you reading my post?Im gonna point this out one last time!
1.People were serious about retelling the facts of history,no thoughts and lies are included into manuscript at the time unless the author says so in some type of way.In this case for the bible,it is true.
2.People who didnt believe in Jesus such as Josephus who was born in 37ad and the Jews of the time,mentioned seeing Christ and even some of his works!
3.It is proven that the bible IS HISTORICALLY CORRECT.When this is said,that is already half of the picture!
4.This evidence is presented by Scholars who are some of the most educated men in the entire world about Christianity.
5.Even atheists who go through evidence and studying have found the bible to be reliable and truthful.
The bible is far away from a fantasy novel or a book of lies.It is the truth written so people may understand things.The world has truly gotten the best of us but you can still change.


The Bible may be accurate in documenting that events occurred. The fact that events occurred doesn't not necessarily point to divine intervention. Things happened. The men who wrote the Bible recorded them with their own touch, and that's all we know. The Bible writers weaved the stories to be interesting and to carry moral values.

Thanks Saa-chan, I did not say anything in the note of they all lie and I never even said anything about lying, though it does imply it. I never assumed anything, stop twisting my words to your fitting kingray100.

If I do remember correctly, I've heard on (I think History Channel, or was it Discovery... I forgot) that during the time of the "Moses" thing, the sky that rained fire and whatever, and the sea that split, nearby a super volcano had erupted (note, nearby does not mean neighboring because if it was neighboring, Moses and the other followers would be dead) in which as the majority should know, earthquake like situations and volcanic eruptions can cause tsunamis, at that time, in which the effect was able to "pull the seas apart".

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EternalParadox

Retired Moderator

EternalParadox

.:Enigma Mod:.

Quote: But it proves the bible to be accurate,therefore saying the account of Jesus Christ and his works are true!Your saying just because the bible may be true on this and if it was true on this,then there still is no God.Of course there is!The bible was made to tell people about him.If all the accounts of history is correct,then that means the parts mentioning God is also true.Its not like a history book where its all history,and then suddenely a fake person comes out of nowhere just to change the pace of the bible.The bible is GODS WORD.so if you find God's word correct,would that mean God is there?

The Bible is NOT God's word in the sense that someone wrote down a list of direct quotations. The Bible is human interpretation of what they believe a benevolent higher being would have directed them to do.

Quote: Your saying just because the bible may be true on this and if it was true on this,then there still is no God.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that just because the Bible can be historically accurate, you cannot KNOW that God exists the same way you would know a scientific theory given the same level of accuracy.

The Bible's historical accuracy does not prove God's existence. Instead this historical accuracy strengthens the faith of those who believe in God. The Bible merely recorded physical events, and these events cannot be directly and physically linked to God. When the Bible records that Christ performs a "miracle," it records that 1) Christ was present, 2) Christ performed certain actions, and 3) a subsequent event occurred. You assume, via your faith, that the existence of the parts automatically indicate the existence of a greater, cohesive whole. That is not always the case. Historicity of physically testable events cannot prove the existence of a physically untestable entity; historicity of testable events cannot prove anything about a non-physical cohesive whole.

Quote: 5.Even atheists who go through evidence and studying have found the bible to be reliable and truthful.

Think of it like this. You yourself would believe in God regardless whether there was any historical evidence about what's recorded in the Bible because you have faith in the existence of God. That is how Christians maintained their faith throughout the centuries before anthropologists discovered historical sites and documents. The counterpoint to your belief in God is that another individual does not believe in God. Using ONLY the historical events, you cannot prove that God exists to that person because the accuracy of those events only prove that those events themselves occurred. An atheist would find the Bible historically accurate, but because he never had the faith in God you have to begin with, all the Bible would prove to him is that an event X took place on day Y in the past.

You seemed to confuse the very different definitions of evidence with respect to God and to science. "Evidence" for the existence of God is not the same as evidence for a scientific hypothesis. Evidence for God are merely events that strengthen you faith in God, not directly proving God's existence. Evidence for a scientific hypothesis is directly supporting or negating that hypothesis. Furthermore, one of the first criterion of scientific evidence is that the experiment has to be repeatable. Repetition of a religious experience is nonexistent because religion is at its core a personal relationship between an individual and his faith in a higher being. Your faith in God is different than my faith in God, and your reasons for your faith will be very different than my reasons. Yet you and I will do the same experiment to test the boiling point of distilled water at one atmospheric pressure and sea level altitude. The evidence in these two scenarios are very different in nature.

Ultimately, the Bible is not the same type of text as a scientific journal. The Bible helps people believe in God by strengthening their faith in something untestable and unknowable. A scientific text reports the results of experiments directly testing the validity of a falsifiable claim.

EternalParadox
Previously the Forum, Vector Art, and Policy Moderator

kingray100

kingray100

Ryu,the half demon

Quote by EternalParadox

Quote: But it proves the bible to be accurate,therefore saying the account of Jesus Christ and his works are true!Your saying just because the bible may be true on this and if it was true on this,then there still is no God.Of course there is!The bible was made to tell people about him.If all the accounts of history is correct,then that means the parts mentioning God is also true.Its not like a history book where its all history,and then suddenely a fake person comes out of nowhere just to change the pace of the bible.The bible is GODS WORD.so if you find God's word correct,would that mean God is there?

The Bible is NOT God's word in the sense that someone wrote down a list of direct quotations. The Bible is human interpretation of what they believe a benevolent higher being would have directed them to do.

Quote: Your saying just because the bible may be true on this and if it was true on this,then there still is no God.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that just because the Bible can be historically accurate, you cannot KNOW that God exists the same way you would know a scientific theory given the same level of accuracy.

The Bible's historical accuracy does not prove God's existence. Instead this historical accuracy strengthens the faith of those who believe in God. The Bible merely recorded physical events, and these events cannot be directly and physically linked to God. When the Bible records that Christ performs a "miracle," it records that 1) Christ was present, 2) Christ performed certain actions, and 3) a subsequent event occurred. You assume, via your faith, that the existence of the parts automatically indicate the existence of a greater, cohesive whole. That is not always the case. Historicity of physically testable events cannot prove the existence of a physically untestable entity; historicity of testable events cannot prove anything about a non-physical cohesive whole.

Quote: 5.Even atheists who go through evidence and studying have found the bible to be reliable and truthful.

Think of it like this. You yourself would believe in God regardless whether there was any historical evidence about what's recorded in the Bible because you have faith in the existence of God. That is how Christians maintained their faith throughout the centuries before anthropologists discovered historical sites and documents. The counterpoint to your belief in God is that another individual does not believe in God. Using ONLY the historical events, you cannot prove that God exists to that person because the accuracy of those events only prove that those events themselves occurred. An atheist would find the Bible historically accurate, but because he never had the faith in God you have to begin with, all the Bible would prove to him is that an event X took place on day Y in the past.

You seemed to confuse the very different definitions of evidence with respect to God and to science. "Evidence" for the existence of God is not the same as evidence for a scientific hypothesis. Evidence for God are merely events that strengthen you faith in God, not directly proving God's existence. Evidence for a scientific hypothesis is directly supporting or negating that hypothesis. Furthermore, one of the first criterion of scientific evidence is that the experiment has to be repeatable. Repetition of a religious experience is nonexistent because religion is at its core a personal relationship between an individual and his faith in a higher being. Your faith in God is different than my faith in God, and your reasons for your faith will be very different than my reasons. Yet you and I will do the same experiment to test the boiling point of distilled water at one atmospheric pressure and sea level altitude. The evidence in these two scenarios are very different in nature.

Ultimately, the Bible is not the same type of text as a scientific journal. The Bible helps people believe in God by strengthening their faith in something untestable and unknowable. A scientific text reports the results of experiments directly testing the validity of a falsifiable claim.

I see your point but not just the historical events correct,but the books of Matthew,mark,Luke and john are also proved truthful and reliable.Now get this straight.If these books are true,then you must know that these books not only mention Jesus's birth,but his life and resurrection.Since these books are proved reliable,then Jesus exists(we know this without this evidence).Secondly,we know of him talking about God and him being the son of God.Now the only obstacle in an atheist's way is,was Jesus telling the truth when he said he was the son of God.this is where we will come up with our own opinions,but I will believe that he is and that he died on the cross for us.But all and all,I suppose there will be things we will not know of,and things we question.But to end this thought,I want to say that humans werent meant to know EVERYTHING about EVERYTHING,especially God since he is a higher being that cannot be seen,and that fact tends to turn people the other way.But never lose faith,and he will reward you,I promise on my life.

EternalParadox

Retired Moderator

EternalParadox

.:Enigma Mod:.

Quote: ,I want to say that humans werent meant to know EVERYTHING about EVERYTHING,especially God since he is a higher being that cannot be seen,

That is exactly why God's existence cannot be proven or tested in the same way we test a scientific hypothesis. A central tenant in nearly all religions is that the deity is beyond humanity's capacity to know and understand. Given that, no matter how reliable or "factual" a spiritual text's records are, in the scientific sense they will always prove nothing beyond that those events themselves occurred. The intersection between physical events and a God moves those events beyond human ability to test and analyze, and thus God exists to those who have faith in him and does not exist to those who lack that faith.

Let me move this discussion back to the topic of this thread, since I think you and I have gotten quite a bit off track. I think one main reason Evolution strikes more people as flawed than, say, kinematics, is because it is difficult to conduct an experiment to test evolutionary theory. Changes in a species, at the macro level, do not occur during a human lifetime, so scientific experiments are more difficult to conduct. Kinematics is easy to test - every auto accident is an example in force and momentum. In some ways, evolution to certain people is like creationism - to them, neither has any physical evidence they can see and touch, so why should they believe evolution to be a better theory? The difference, however, is the evolutionary theory ultimately can be tested as a scientific theory, and creationism cannot. One is based on experimentation and the other faith. Neither is a "truer" construct to explain how we came about because they exist in different domains of knowledge.

I personally feel that we shouldn't even have this debate about evolution versus creationism in the first place due to that very fact. Science and religion are not mutually exclusive, and because we cannot know God the way we know science, it may well be true that science is merely God's method of organizing the universe. God created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th in Genesis, but hey, God could have been using an allegory and each of his "days" is actually 200 million human years. God created life, and for all we know he could have done it using the evolutionary process.

So I see no point in arguing science versus religion. Science seeks to answer "how," and religion seeks to reveal "why." In many ways, they work well in tantum.

EternalParadox
Previously the Forum, Vector Art, and Policy Moderator

kingray100

kingray100

Ryu,the half demon

Quote by EternalParadox

Quote: ,I want to say that humans werent meant to know EVERYTHING about EVERYTHING,especially God since he is a higher being that cannot be seen,

That is exactly why God's existence cannot be proven or tested in the same way we test a scientific hypothesis. A central tenant in nearly all religions is that the deity is beyond humanity's capacity to know and understand. Given that, no matter how reliable or "factual" a spiritual text's records are, in the scientific sense they will always prove nothing beyond that those events themselves occurred. The intersection between physical events and a God moves those events beyond human ability to test and analyze, and thus God exists to those who have faith in him and does not exist to those who lack that faith.

Let me move this discussion back to the topic of this thread, since I think you and I have gotten quite a bit off track. I think one main reason Evolution strikes more people as flawed than, say, kinematics, is because it is difficult to conduct an experiment to test evolutionary theory. Changes in a species, at the macro level, do not occur during a human lifetime, so scientific experiments are more difficult to conduct. Kinematics is easy to test - every auto accident is an example in force and momentum. In some ways, evolution to certain people is like creationism - to them, neither has any physical evidence they can see and touch, so why should they believe evolution to be a better theory? The difference, however, is the evolutionary theory ultimately can be tested as a scientific theory, and creationism cannot. One is based on experimentation and the other faith. Neither is a "truer" construct to explain how we came about because they exist in different domains of knowledge.

I personally feel that we shouldn't even have this debate about evolution versus creationism in the first place due to that very fact. Science and religion are not mutually exclusive, and because we cannot know God the way we know science, it may well be true that science is merely God's method of organizing the universe. God created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th in Genesis, but hey, God could have been using an allegory and each of his "days" is actually 200 million human years. God created life, and for all we know he could have done it using the evolutionary process.

So I see no point in arguing science versus religion. Science seeks to answer "how," and religion seeks to reveal "why." In many ways, they work well in tantum.

Ok.But let me ask you this simple question.Your saying that even if the entire bible was proven correct,that you would still doubt God and not accept it unless some type of event happened when you were there to see it,proving it in a scientific way?If so,then thats truly sad...(no offense)...I understand that you would want other types of proofs but when its this long ago,you can on really rely on historical documents and so on...Science isnt very good with dealing with things in the past,but let the paper work and the work of reliable people be accepted at least to a moral extent. If the person isnt reliable,then some evidence would have to support why and from then on will be done.

Just to put it, you don't know if a document is true or not. For example, let's say during the Roman times, during the crucifixion and all that. For all you know, it might not have been the Romans, for all we know, whoever was "writing" this down might have thought it was the Roman, but in fact, it might be these Persians or some other group of people. Plus, for all you know, the crucifixion might have never happened. This is just one idea of how we see history as than what it happened can be altered by just one person.

If every physical evidence was proven true, it doesn't mean god did it... as I have stated in my previous post, an example was during the Moses period.

Quote by DarkRoseofHellIf I do remember correctly, I've heard on (I think History Channel, or was it Discovery... I forgot) that during the time of the "Moses" thing, the sky that rained fire and whatever, and the sea that split, nearby a super volcano had erupted (note, nearby does not mean neighboring because if it was neighboring, Moses and the other followers would be dead) in which as the majority should know, earthquake like situations and volcanic eruptions can cause tsunamis, at that time, in which the effect was able to "pull the seas apart".


Oh yeah, also, if you don't know how a super volcanic eruption can cause the "seas to part" just think of how a tsunami is formed, then you kind of get the picture.

?(/??)?
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