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On Revolting Practice.

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ttwen

ttwen

somebody

Quote by beyondmeasure
I read.

A putrid combination of dogmatic bullshit and political maneuvering, with the dogma a dominating factor in his eventual house arrest.

yes. in the end its politically motivated. you admit that yourself.

Quote:
Well, what if the Islam version of heaven - 72 virgins and all - turns out to be right? Then, you'll be joining me in hell, right?

yes i would be joining you in hell. but fortunately that is not true.

Quote: Japtheth and his daughter, anyone?

so this means we are done on abraham and now moving on the next issue? :D

beyondmeasure

From the mind comes the query.

Quote: yes. in the end its politically motivated. you admit that yourself.

I did not say that politics hammered Galileo's impious mouth. Read again - I said a combination of dogma and politics silenced Galileo, with religious dogma a dominant factor.

Quote: yes i would be joining you in hell. but fortunately that is not true.

But what criterion do you have to say that your religion's teachings on the afterlife is true? The Catholic brings out his Bible and blabbers on hell; the Muslim brings out his Koran and blabbers about his own dogma's version of it. They are mutually incompatible, with their "holy" books mutually excmmunicating members of other faiths because they do not belong to the right faith. How would you know that, out of a welter of religions, that yours is the true faith?

Quote: so this means we are done on abraham and now moving on the next issue?

I give Japtheth, one of the Judges, as my rebuttal to your answer - what is that? Oh, that Abraham was only tested by God. God, eternal jester he is.

priincess

priincess

?doing fun

Quote: who would, so that his own skin would be saved from persecution, passed off his wife as his sister (which has something of a basis in Scripture) when he went to Egypt and Gerar, and let her belong to the harems of their respective rulers;

wait a minute, i dont know which part you read, i dont see it.

Quote: And do you seriously believe that a child, bound to an altar, facing death, about to be sacrificed to whatever voice his own father claims to hear in his head; would not scream, would not cry, would not beg for his father TO STOP

of course. he wouldnt, he knew his father. Abraham prayed everyday for his sons n daughters n families, he keeped his faith stronger n stronger, he had never done anything bad; he avoided it

Quote: Dying because of theological disagreements - if Mary had indeed been born and lived as a virgin or not, over the mystery of the Trinity, over which books should be included into the New Testament canon, taking your religion for instance - is sheer stupidity.

n what is the stupid part?
dont call people stupid for u arent sure u're stupid or not.

Quote: How about the Muslims? The Mormons? Protestants? Animists? Atheists? Agnostics? How about the rest of us?

God gave u hint; read Bible n learn, trust God to save your life. every hard works will be payed in the end.


merged: 06-28-2008 ~ 11:46am

Quote: But what criterion do you have to say that your religion's teachings on the afterlife is true? The Catholic brings out his Bible and blabbers on hell; the Muslim brings out his Koran and blabbers about his own dogma's version of it. They are mutually incompatible, with their "holy" books mutually excmmunicating members of other faiths because they do not belong to the right faith. How would you know that, out of a welter of religions, that yours is the true faith?

u just have to know what is good n what is bad. everything bad comes from the devil.

Revelation 2:25Only hold on to what you have until I come. 26To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations
Revelation 2:10Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

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ttwen

ttwen

somebody

Quote by beyondmeasure
I did not say that politics hammered Galileo's impious mouth. Read again - I said a combination of dogma and politics silenced Galileo, with religious dogma a dominant factor.


well, yes and no. politics played the major role. The catholics silenced him because for their greed for power(in this case, people's faith in them). During that time, they used and approved themselves geocentricsm(which is surprisingly very accurate). Then comes Galileo exited by his discovery of venus's phases occuring while orbiting the sun. which proves, the heliocentric of copernicus's theory and at the same time proved geocentricsm to be a mistake. The church of course force him to "shut up", because the church has to save themselves from the shame of their folly. well thats the simplified story anyway. its too long to elaborate..

Quote:
But what criterion do you have to say that your religion's teachings on the afterlife is true? The Catholic brings out his Bible and blabbers on hell; the Muslim brings out his Koran and blabbers about his own dogma's version of it. They are mutually incompatible, with their "holy" books mutually excmmunicating members of other faiths because they do not belong to the right faith. How would you know that, out of a welter of religions, that yours is the true faith?

yes, i admit i say its true because the bible says its true. so? Its not like i force you to believe me. I simply stated my views on this.

oceansoul

Soulless Automaton

Quote by priincessu just have to know what is good n what is bad. everything bad comes from the devil.

Who was created by your all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good god. This means that the source of all that is bad is your god.

Watch me fault her
You're living like a disaster
She said kill me faster
With strawberry gashes all over - Strawberry Gashes by Jack Off Jill

priincess

priincess

?doing fun

Quote: Who was created by your all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good god. This means that the source of all that is bad is your god.

would u blame your parents if u were a naughty-drunker-having sex before marriage-drugs-stealing n such like that?

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oceansoul

Soulless Automaton

Quote by priincess

Quote: Who was created by your all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good god. This means that the source of all that is bad is your god.

would u blame your parents if u were a naughty-drunker-having sex before marriage-drugs-stealing n such like that?

No, but then they aren't all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good are they. I also see no problem with alcohol, pre-marital sex, or taking drugs in moderation.

Also note that an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good god would not create a being capable of evil, as to do so would mean that god could not be all-powerful, all-good or all-knowing

Watch me fault her
You're living like a disaster
She said kill me faster
With strawberry gashes all over - Strawberry Gashes by Jack Off Jill

ttwen

ttwen

somebody

Quote by oceansoul

No, but then they aren't all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good are they. I also see no problem with alcohol, pre-marital sex, or taking drugs in moderation.

Also note that an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good god would not create a being capable of evil, as to do so would mean that god could not be all-powerful, all-good or all-knowing

i do hope you do some homework before saying these statements. well never mind, this time i do it for you instead.

gen 2:16-17 - 'And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."'

man was never created to be evil. but man 'choose' to be evil. but why would God put that forbidden fruit in the middle of Eden? it is the same as what he had given to his angels when he created them - choice of free will.
therefore,

all-powerful - yes;
all-knowing - yes;
all-good - i'd say yes. but then you may say no. God destroyed pagan worship mercilessly by obliterating cities or kill the worshipers many times in the old testament. for he is a jealous God.

*edit: shame on me, i made a very big typing mistake on gen 1:26-27, should be gen 2:16-17..

oceansoul

Soulless Automaton

Quote by ttweni do hope you do some homework before saying these statements. well never mind, this time i do it for you instead.

gen 1:26-27 - 'And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."'

man was never created to be evil. but man 'choose' to be evil. but why would God put that forbidden fruit in the middle of Eden? it is the same as what he had given to his angels when he created them - choice of free will.
therefore,

However god would have known the consequences of creating both an inquisitive being such as man, and a tree that will cause him to know of good and evil. Also for man to be able to determine between good and evil both of these must exist, and given god created everything he created evil.

Quote: the same as what he had given to his angels when he created them - choice of free will.


And what did he do when they chose not to engage in mindless worship, oh that's right he damned them. He would have known the outcome before the creation, meaning he deliberately created beings with the intention of damning them.

Quote: all-knowing - yes;


Quote: choice of free will


If god is all-knowing he already knows everything that is going to happen as it all occurs as a predictable result of his creating the universe. If he knows what will happen then there is no free will as the outcome is predetermined by factors set in place by the being that supposedly created free will.

Quote: all-good - i'd say yes. but then you may say no. God destroyed pagan worship mercilessly by obliterating cities or kill the worshipers many times in the old testament. for he is a jealous God.


And you see no contradiction here? All-good yet killing those who disagree with him, denying them all chance of redemption. This strikes me as the actions of a petty despot and not some benevolent creator.

Watch me fault her
You're living like a disaster
She said kill me faster
With strawberry gashes all over - Strawberry Gashes by Jack Off Jill

ttwen

ttwen

somebody

well this will be the last time im replying to your points, because obviously, you don't know what you are debating about... yes, say anything you want.

Quote by oceansoul
However god would have known the consequences of creating both an inquisitive being such as man, and a tree that will cause him to know of good and evil. Also for man to be able to determine between good and evil both of these must exist, and given god created everything he created evil.

inquisitive? not really. refer back to gen 2:17, God did prohibit Adam to eat the fruit and told him the reason already. BUT, the serpent tempted Eve to eat the fruit

Gen 3:4-5 - '"You will not surely die,"the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil,"'

and man in the beginning does not know what's good and what's evil. all he knows is eat sleep and take care of Eden.

Quote:
And what did he do when they chose not to engage in mindless worship, oh that's right he damned them. He would have known the outcome before the creation, meaning he deliberately created beings with the intention of damning them.

he never damned the angels. he banished them.

Quote:
And you see no contradiction here? All-good yet killing those who disagree with him, denying them all chance of redemption. This strikes me as the actions of a petty despot and not some benevolent creator.

i see no contradiction. redemption? he did gave them chance. you can start doing some homework now by finding the proof in the bible yourself. you should know you are responsible of what your worship. or responsible of not worshiping anything. In that case, they are warned. yet they ignored the warnings.

priincess

priincess

?doing fun

Quote: No, but then they aren't all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good are they. I also see no problem with alcohol, pre-marital sex, or taking drugs in moderation.

well, then blame yourself if u do something bad. am i right..?

Quote: all-good god would not create a being capable of evil,

it's not us who decide God's good or not, for we are not better. but He is perfect. He let the devil to make us being good. if your parents let u do whatever you want, then they arent good parents. beside, the devil just persuades u to being bad, if u do it, then you are bad, too.

Quote: man was never created to be evil. but man 'choose' to be evil.

nice answers ^^

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samu02

Back to Basics

If the guy is doing something akin to self-gratification and I find it severely atrocious, i.e., raping/beating children, I would have him judged by his actions, and no amount of "God/the Devil made me do it" pleas would stop me from getting justice done.

Now if the guy is doing something akin to self-denial and I find it severely atrocious, i.e., extreme fasting to the point of near death, and he says that God commanded him to do so, then I guess I'd stay with him to help him when the practice he is doing is over.

The reason why I would believe the second one is because he is not doing it to pleasure himself (God doesn't need to command us to seek pleasure for ourselves; that's pretty much a given objective for the human race). And besides, if he's a masochist, he'd be moaning, and hurting him some more would do me nor him no good (I'd just call the nearest mental institution to get him).

God: As prayed by the people of the Earth. I allow you to eat ice cream breakfast, lunch, and dinner, with the occasional brunch and snack times included.

Human: ALRIGHT!

*After three days*

Human: God I don't wanna see another ice cream again!

God: *chuckles*

(Besides, my God is a God of justice first, and a God of mercy second. I would not follow a God who would forgive a sinner who did not ask or deserved forgiveness. And that's the truth, with a chocolate syrup on the side)

"If faced with a life or death situation, an average person would choose life; a hero also chooses life, just not for himself"
"Knowledge is Power. But Power unused accomplishes nothing"
[CENTER][IMG]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/11.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]

CIRCUMCISING WITH THE MOUTH?

Now that's imagination! You can write a movie script: "Jaws: the return of the evil shark-rabbi" HA! (no disrepect meant to Jews, but Icouldn't avoid it)

It would be better explained with the inhuman practice of the genital mutilation of girls, that is done by some nomad people of Somalia. It's documented in Waris Dirie's "Desert Flower" autobiographical book.

NOW THAT'S REVOLTING. You have to read the book and get trougth that amount of pain

AND IT'S EVIL. I'm not VERYfamiliar with Islam, but since it's a local practice it has to be A MISINTERPRETATION (deliberate, for sure) OF RELIGIOUS PRECEPTS (like is done by many sects, surely taken from a single, descontextualized line) done by a chauvinist society. The mutilation not done by an iman or any kind of religious leader, nor in an especial ritual. in Wari's case, it was an old gypsi woman.

If I were in Somalia, and see that something like that it's going to happen, of course I'd try to stop them. But even being in Somalia, a last-minute-rescue it's not likely to happen, since they look for a far away place in the desert to do it.

NOW, THERE CANNOT BE A VILE ACT APROVED BY GOD. NEVER.

If a vile act is happening in front of me, it's because it's meant FOR ME TO STOP IT. Under Catholicicism, not impending an evil act nor doing a good one is called a "sin of omission".

merged: 08-14-2009 ~ 08:00pm

Quote by beyondmeasureI presume you think: Why do I attack God?

... if only because God - whoever/whatever he/she/it is - has been the reason why millions die, to this very day...

... if only because God - whoever/whatever he/she/it is - has been one of the main reasons why people remain so hidebound and ignorant...

... that is why.

THAT'S HUMAN EVIL. YOU CAN USE EVEN THE BEST OF INTENTIONS TO MAKE EVIL DEEDS. "The road to hell is paved of good intentions" it's an old saying.

But that's why you and I exist. To do even the little we can in order, like you say, "to fix it".

For me, in my belief, I have the duty of being God's hands and feet. That's the reason of our existences.

NOT DOING ANYTHING IN FRONT OF EVIL... THAT'S EVIL

Northy

Northy

Guys are human as well.

Here's a little link for everyone who's bristling their feathers in this thread. I suggest you all go read it.

Also; "making a circumcision using teeth"? Are you people fucking serious?

Ha! Good one!
Humans should do good... any belief they have.
Then, if you die and there's a God, you'll go to Heaven. If there isn't God, you'll leave an good memory of yours on everyone.

samu02

Back to Basics

Quote by NorthyHere's a little link for everyone who's bristling their feathers in this thread. I suggest you all go read it.

Also; "making a circumcision using teeth"? Are you people fucking serious?

That was a very interesting read. I totally agree on this. Yey for the guy who wrote that stuff.

"If faced with a life or death situation, an average person would choose life; a hero also chooses life, just not for himself"
"Knowledge is Power. But Power unused accomplishes nothing"
[CENTER][IMG]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/11.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]

Quote by NorthyAlso; "making a circumcision using teeth"? Are you people fucking serious?

I don't think the moral implications are nearly as serious as the medical ones. Have they any idea how unsanitary that is? Any boy that undergoes that is lucky to not die. I know I got some bad stuff in my mouth but I shudder to think of the what kind of nasty pedo bacteria those dirty old men claiming to be holy men have hiding out in their mouths. Also I assume this isn't done with anesthesia those guys are doctors or anything. I think we have established that trying to chew someone's ding dong off is just flat wrong but what the heck is wrong with those poor boys' parents? Who would put their child through this kind of thing. Seriously these guys make real child molesters look like saints; at least those kid don't come back with something missing. I believe that the reasons provide within should more than justify that circumcision by mouth is both statutory rape, as well as attempted murder. The parents should be charged with reckless endangerment of a minor, as well as child prostitution.

Suxinn

Suxinn

Greatest of all Clocks

I would, like most people probably would but won't admit it, ignore it and move on.
To me, it isn't a matter of God (as I don't believe such a being exists), it would be a matter of courage and fear. Courage to stand up for what I believe is right, which I don't have, and fear of the repercussions that might follow, which I do have.

If it truly is something horrible, though, and is undoubtedly illegal, I would call 911. Let them handle it.

HikaruKage

HikaruKage

Inane Devvy

Quote by beyondmeasureI'll rephrase this in a way even you, Sherry, would understand:

Let's say I'm 57 years of age, seen circumcising - by using the mouth as a cutting device - a little boy, at some back alley.

Yes, mouth to penis. Caught in the act.

Naturally, you feel revolted. But I tell you that I am a mohel - an approved circumciser and foreskin remover. My authority comes from ancient scripture.

What do you say? Do you go on staring at me, tolerating the entire ghastly procedure? Or do you do something to stop it?

Ask the boy if he wants such a practise done on him.

If yes, ask the man why is he performing it in an unsterilised area, the boy might get infections. Ancient scripture or not, no point circumcising a child if you're going to kill him with an infection because you didn't brush your teeth.

If no, glare at the man. If he protests, tell him to provide proof that the child's parents has consent to it. If no such proof is provided, it's time to go see the police for some clarification. If he claims God to be his witness or what not, I'd still drag him to the authority.

It's okay if I have wrongly accused someone, and proven that I am wrong rather than I choose to ignore something that could be a very bad thing. I'd rather be 'smited' or punished for being wrong than punished for ignoring a wrong.

It's not personal gratification or whatever. I, personally, do not care whether there is a God or there are Gods or not, but people's belief should be respected so long as they respect the different beliefs of others. Though there's always a limit to things.

Edit: Oh yeah. I might take a video and youtube it if the man really really insists that it's not wrong but won't let me allow him to prove that it isn't.

DeviantART
People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use. -Soren Kierkegaard
Perhaps it's harder to watch the burdened that to be burdened, that is why people always look away. -M.

beyondmeasure

From the mind comes the query.

Quote by NorthyAlso; "making a circumcision using teeth"? Are you people fucking serious?

As for the OP, yes dour sir, this is serious shit.

Thanks for reading.

(Well, if ye read up, it happened in New York, right when Bloomberg's running for reelection. As i recall, he did the right thing and shut the yap of all inquiry, fearing it would rankle the Jews. Oh yeah - Jews. Orthodox Judaism had this as part of their immutable contract with whoever god designed the penis to be torn by human teeth and to be infected by microorganisms of said circumciser's mouth.)

merged: 11-15-2009 ~ 12:13pm
NOW, THERE CANNOT BE A VILE ACT APPROVED BY GOD. NEVER.

Now, I don't know what bade me forget to reply to this, but since I'm now free to reply to this, I must reply. By my sarcastic ways, sure.

Now, male circumcision (a most atrocious procedure...) is allowed by God (... but since God allowed it...) - here, in Genesis, just before Isaac was born. Circumcision involves cutting out the foreskin of the penis - thus bringing about a bountiful amount of blood - thus exposing the resulting wounds to careful scrutiny by all manner of microorganisms - thus compromising your movements for a matter of days - thus heaping bales of trouble on your urinary tract (oh, I know - I experienced that shit). Of course, removing such a part of the private part tends to be painful, right? Well, it is; before analgesics took over, and after that momentous and fortunate event, when various old men still insisted in doing the procedure, preferably with the male howlin' in agony. (No, I didn't undergo that, but I've heard enough tales in the provinces of mine country.)

Now, supposing that God exists, and the Jews have it correct, is it safe to say that he set for us a most vile procedure? Or is it that male circumcision is not such a vile activity after all, despite me losing pails of blood, my foreskin, and possibly my urinary tract, and possibly my life, for the sake of not shittin' on God's hair?

cheri-sama

cheri-sama

(◕‿‿◕)

Quote by beyondmeasure

Quote: yes. in the end its politically motivated. you admit that yourself.

I did not say that politics hammered Galileo's impious mouth. Read again - I said a combination of dogma and politics silenced Galileo, with religious dogma a dominant factor.

Quote: yes i would be joining you in hell. but fortunately that is not true.

But what criterion do you have to say that your religion's teachings on the afterlife is true? The Catholic brings out his Bible and blabbers on hell; the Muslim brings out his Koran and blabbers about his own dogma's version of it. They are mutually incompatible, with their "holy" books mutually excmmunicating members of other faiths because they do not belong to the right faith. How would you know that, out of a welter of religions, that yours is the true faith?

Quote: so this means we are done on abraham and now moving on the next issue?

I give Japtheth, one of the Judges, as my rebuttal to your answer - what is that? Oh, that Abraham was only tested by God. God, eternal jester he is.

I also have a question about this that I'm really bothered. Especially in my religion.

They keep telling me to avoid people in 'this religion this and that because of this and that' but it gives me the feeling that they're totally wrong. I've seen a portion of the world I've never encountered before and YES I love to tell these people that WE shouldn't judge them BASED on their beliefs. But I have a weak will. I respect these people even though it gives me an unpleasant feeling. I don't like condemning them too because I feel it's wrong. But either way, I'm happy but still pursuing to look for answers to my questions. I'm here to listen to your opinions too and I'd love to know them.

( ﾟДﾟﾉﾉ☆ﾊﾟﾁﾊﾟﾁﾊﾟﾁﾊﾟﾁ

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