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My tags are rewritten into wrong information;

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Astara

Astara

Scanner, Artistic

I've submitted some scans for Burst Angel, and it gets rewritten to the Japanese title.

This is just 'wrong'. They are two related, but separately named series -- the artwork I uploaded has inscribed in it -- IN ENGLISH, "Burst Angel", NOT Bakuretsu Tenshi. To mangle my tag or title is to destroying the real name of the product I scanned from -- it is written in English. The board's software shouldn't be presumptuous that I'm a dumb American that doesn't know how to spell, -- if it's licensed in another country under a different title, it's wrong to automatically delete the person's text under the presumption that they don't know any better -- because in this case the correct 'English' title is shown in the corner of the image -- it doesn't say it was from the Japanese version of the Video.

In regards to the artbook's -- they also should not be seen as "the same". The US version, in this case, was printed at a size 60% larger than the Japanese version resulting in a noticeably higher quality scan.

It's also difficult for people who watch the US versions to look for art related to their favorite series when it's not under a familiar title. They should be cross-title/cross-linked, because they are substantially the same, but there are differences in anime content, at times as well as differences in meaning in translation.

Can this be fixed so it won't destroy my tags? I don't mind the alternate version being added in addition to what I typed -- that's helpful information -- but both tags should be put there if it is the case that the series has been published in English with an English title.

---

Just now, the board's posting software wouldn't recognize what I am posting about -- said 'tag not found'.

A tag is something that is useful to the people entering it. It's not just a list of predefined categories. Isn't it possible that people have watched series and have tags that aren't in predefined categories? Why doesn't it add a new tag when people enter a tag -- the tag can be reviewed and deleted if it is bogus, but if is a real series, it shouldn't be disallowed.


Sheqel

Administrator

Sheqel

Quote by Athenae

Just now, the board's posting software wouldn't recognize what I am posting about -- said 'tag not found'.

A tag is something that is useful to the people entering it. It's not just a list of predefined categories. Isn't it possible that people have watched series and have tags that aren't in predefined categories? Why doesn't it add a new tag when people enter a tag -- the tag can be reviewed and deleted if it is bogus, but if is a real series, it shouldn't be disallowed.

This bit was actually a bug, the new thread form should now correctly have suggestions-dropdown. Members can only create tags when adding it to submissions; the new thread form requires the tag to be an existing valid franchise, since it is an optional field anyway.

Astara

Astara

Scanner, Artistic

Create tags when entering it into submissions? Entering a what? into what submissions?
A scan? Cause it just rewrote my tags again when submitted them. It won't take the English version of the series.

Sheqel

Administrator

Sheqel

Quote by AthenaeCreate tags when entering it into submissions? Entering a what? into what submissions?
A scan? Cause it just rewrote my tags again when submitted them. It won't take the English version of the series.


That is because Burst Angel is currently 'aliased' to Bakuretsu Tenshi.

Astara

Astara

Scanner, Artistic

Yeah...that alias thing is just 'wrong'...because the video's and artwork can be different between different regions. It should store what the user typed in as the primary and store the db's idea of 'equivalence' as a 2ndary tag. That way there's some idea if the information, scan or image was for a 'localized' version or was for the japanese version. Sometimes there are even subtle storyline differences introduced by local publishers who thought something needed to be edited to read or play differently for their local audience. I think that's happening less as markets become more global, but I'm not multi-lingual enough to know -- I do sometimes see a completely different take on scenes, even storylines, in what comes from subtitles vs. spoken text -- neither of which is the original language, so who knows what IT says.

vitaamin

vitaamin

DUKE 2010 NCAA CHAMPS!

i dont think you understand how the tag system works. Firstly, a series such a code geass has a few different names so to streamline and make sure that all scans remain in the same category, we have code geass r2, code geass r1 and all of these under one tag. so code geass r2 is an ALIAS of code geass: lelouch of the rebellion.
in the same fashion, burst angel is an ALIAS of bakuretsu tenshi.

now lets get to your point which to be frank i'm not sure i understand. are you arguing that we should allow people to choose how their tags show up i.e using which alias or are you arguing that there should be a separate burst angel tag? and if its the latter why should we have a separate burst angel tag?

right now it sounds like you are arguing for different tags because the series is presented in a different way in different regions of the world. while this is a valid argument, I still think that it would be confusing and inefficient for members to browse scans with the consideration that they are from "different regions of the world" to be frank, i dont think many members would want to search for burst angel scans from the US vs from Japan. That would just make the system much more inefficient. members would also get confused as to where exactly they should post their scans and the nuanced classification you are asking for would be moot.

but again, i'm not sure i'm understanding what your argument is.

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Astara

Astara

Scanner, Artistic

What I'm asking for is to store a data bit about how the name was entered and display it under that form of the name -- still display the alternate as another tag, but if you store the tag under which it was enter, then you have an idea about which version it was scanned from. For example. Recently I've been scanning in and entering images from 'Burst Angel'. They are from the US version of the Ugetsu artbook. It even says 'Burst Angel' on the pages -- not the Japanese title. This is of note because the two artbooks are different. The US artbook was printed at a 156% larger size and *possibly* with a different color processes (I don't have the Japanese version, so can't tell about the color process), but the ones scanned from the Japanese artbook are lower resolution (coming from a smaller print) and much darker (which may be due to the original or the scanner, don't know). The point being, it helps track where the images came from.

In no way should they _not_ be groupable and findable under the same categories -- but the category should be addressable by either name. Storing the name the way the scanner or artist (in the case of wallpaper or original art) entered it determines the source origin of the version they saw. Sometimes I see the Japanese version. My feelings or interpretation of it may be different based on the different translation.

Does that help clarify what I'm trying to say and explain why I, and I believe others, would find it to be a useful addition?


P.s. vitamin? you have the Distant something website? BTW? Thanks...for your vector tutorial -- it's the only one I've found that was detailed enough to follow. Put me on the some initial track for beginning to understand the process...:-) So been meaning to thank you. ...Thanks!...:-)


merged: 01-26-2010 ~ 10:56pm
FYI -- it's also to benefit users in the US -- I can't enter many of my titles that I am watching because the titles aren't in your database and I have no clue what code word you have in the database for them. Just like the anime I watched 'Rin Daughter of Mnemosyne' ... It has 'RIN' in big letters on the box...Mnemosyne is an afterthought, but someone decided to disallow Rin. I can't even pronounced Mnemosyne! That's the 2nd half of this problem -- I can't enter the titles of the anime I watch because their titles aren't in code. They are animes -- I am watching them -- why can't I enter their titles? Because someone else chooses to arbitrarily call them something else? By that logic, shouldn't the Japanese be forced to call their animated movies 'cartoons'? Because the US came up with the artform first? But we honor the Japanese version because of its differences, but not consistently. Everyone here uses the word Ecci, or Hentai (sp?) but from what I read they don't use that word in Japan but a more french word 'eroge'. So why don't we use the word they use in Japan -- because it doesn't sound authentic enough? But authentic is eroge, not hentai or ecci (I'm not sure I have the correct corresponding categories, but I think you get the idea).

If US titles are more familiar to US readers, why not allow them in addition to the Japanese -- I don't want to see them replace them -- I want to learn the Japanese titles, BUT it's only a little bit at a time that I can comfortably handle. Aren't most of the readers on MT from the America's?

And how do I enter what anime I am watching when it the 'I am watching box' won't let me actually enter the name of what I am watching? Do I just enter names at random then put the real title in the comments? That's not very helpful.

It's great to make suggestions -- but just to say "sorry" the anime you just watched doesn't exist. Like yeah..right. I just watched it...tell me it doesn't exist! That's just annoying if not laughable. I have it sitting in front of me. I know I watched it. I know what it is called. What type of ignorant site is it that claims to know anime yet doesn't know about 'XXYZ'...fill in the blank for whatever latest series to be rejected is -- Was going to sit down and type in all of my recent series, but it doesn't take the names of any of them... How can one claim to be an anime site yet not have all the popular anime titles?

If someone sees an anime writeup on here -- and they want to watch it -- will they be able to go to amazon and type in the name and find it? Probably not. I see this as a disservice to MT's readership. How can they find anime if it isn't in the name it's published in this english speaking area? (Yeah, I wish I knew Japanese...among a few other languages, where's a good universal translator when you need one?) :-)

A*a

vitaamin

vitaamin

DUKE 2010 NCAA CHAMPS!

i actually did not write that tutorial, you should be thanking chloe-chan =]

i understand your argument better so staff can discuss it at some point. i ask you to have patience with us on this matter since it may be a controversial one.

if you are interested to know my opinion: while i understand and empathize with your point, i am personally against is because it just means that theres an added layer of confusion for members seeing two display names for the same tag. in regards to your query serach, if you type in burst angel, the japanese title will show up and if you press enter you will be taken to the page where you can further confirm that. although i think an argument to use the english title as the main title can be made very effectively.

you have to ask sheq about the watch list thing, because while its a feature for members, they link to tags in the gallery. an option in which you can freely enter titles that are not linked to tags may be possible.

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vector-wallers tag-licious

Astara

Astara

Scanner, Artistic

If the issue is one of 'confusion', it might be that you are envisioning a confusing interface. The interface and it's result should result in less confusion for all, not more! Otherwise why would I want it? "It don't make no sense to add to people's confusion". ;-) If you need input in answering design questions, feel free to bounce questions at me (I may not always respond super quickly on board, but you could use my email for faster response). If I can't come up with reasonably good solutions to come up with an interface or design that isn't confusing and and reasonably satisfactory, then I might change my mind on the feasibility (though, unlikely the desirability) of my request.

I was just thinking about a logical addition -- which brings its own obvious consistency question/issues. If one refers to the Latinized spelling of the Katana or Kanji (or hirogana? Which is it? Is that consistent?) words for the series, then should we also use (or is it already so?) that MT uses the Latinized spellings of the (whatever alphabet) of each of the characters in the series? If I only ever hear the names of the characters in English -- how would I have a clue as to their Latinized Japanese names? Is the answer different for the Series?

Why are some series in English names, (Eureka 7, Wolf's Rain), but others in Latinized Japanese? It seems a bit arbitrary from my perspective -- is it just MT's staff's "collective personal experience" of what they encountered first? Cause as I'm sure you can figure out, my personal experience wouldn't be (isn't) the same. But the point being is the personal experience of more senior members being used as the base line? Does that make objectiive sense? Does anyone know the Latinzed Japanese for 'AstroBoy'? :-) (that's meant rhetorically).

First trial balloon suggestion (I'm not sure of all the places where this is used, as different style rules would probably apply in different locations), BUT, in a series reference, if reference is to a series published in English, print the English title in Bold 16pt (4/9") type. If series first was published and available in Japanese with a Latinized spelling, print the Romanji in Itallcs Bold 15pt (5/36") type. If both are widely known and used, print the English version 1st, as described, with the Romanji following it in parens. 'Shana (Shaka no Shana)' **.

**-Note. A more flexible approach would be to store the string to display in the user's profile.
I.e.let Default=whatever is in DB 1st for series (or whatever is there now). Then let 'EnglishName'=English name[if not found, then Default];, and 'Romanji''=Romanji name[if not found then Default].

To user: choices? or Free format(I much care).
a) English (Romanji)
b) Romanji (English)
c) English only
d) Romanji only
(e) Free format?

For each 'name' style how? (using curly for square brackets)
English: "{b}English{/b}"
Romanji: ({b}{i}Romanji{/i}{/b})


II. In displaying series display:

a) format a, b) format b...e) free format (with note that 'default' is displayed for DB
entries with only 1 name, but that the 'free format name' will only be shown once/display,

I.e. if only 1 entry is found 'Default', you won't see 'Default (default)', you'd just see
the first instance word displayed. The software would detect that there is only 1 DB variation
and would only display the first item (if the display location would normally have displayed
two). Optionally, could display empty parens "()" as an NIL value but that might confuse
some people as well :-). (Reference to Lisp value for an empty list)
----
Etc....
Yeah, I've just made the issue more complex -- but this is only to provide flexibility to make (hopefully) everyone happy... If it was just making me happy, I'd like to see the English names when available followed by the (Romanji) in parens if that's the title for how it was released in Japan....

But just in case anyone was "asking"...I thought I'd give a stab at some design details...:-)...
(Not that'd I'd know anything about anything, of course, just being a dumb, ignorant 'user' :-) ...).

vitaamin

vitaamin

DUKE 2010 NCAA CHAMPS!

actually the display names are sometimes random and every once in a while we get requests to change them. but we are not going to have a system which allows people to choose how they want their tags to display. even within the english list of names there can be different names that are perfectly valid.

furthermore, if tags are displayed differently based on user input this will lead to more confusion because we wont know if the tags are actually merged or not upon first glance among other reasons.

I am not trying to imply that you don't understand the basics of interface design. but you need you contextualixe your design based on your users and your site. while I am willing to debate this issue further, I don't want to point out what I see as flaws in your argument if we clearly aren't on the same side about how tags are used/should be used

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vector-wallers tag-licious

Astara

Astara

Scanner, Artistic

I wasn't proposing an 'anything goes' tag system. I was proposing (at this point) 2 tags total. One for the English name of the series and one for the (what I am guessing) is the (if I have the term correctly) Romanji name, which (if my assumptions are not woefully clueless),l I am guessing is the name of the series as it was first named/used in Japan(?). I am under (again, perhaps incorrect, but hopefully not too much so) assumption, that there is one Romanji name that would be used to group the titles related to that series, and that there would be one English name to group the related English titles. I.e. in the case of Bleach, I'm not asking for entries for 'Memories of Nobody', to be a separate entry (though an 'alias' as MT uses aliases would be helpful if not already in there).

By addressing some of the implementation possibilities/details, I was *hoping*, to help assuage some potential problems or objections to allowing such a system. As for allowing the user the choice of how to display the database data for a series, would Microsoft be similarly ill advised to provide localized values for "My documents' /me files" (~french) in Windows? It's not exactly the same, but not entirely different. Microsoft even publishes that a user can call 'My Documents', just 'Documents' if they don't like
the prechosen name (the examples might be switched depending on OS level). However, in this case, I'm desiring a choice of how to display information that appears to already be in the database. Not a format to display 'Care Bears' for 'Bleach'.

I don't know your objections, and presumably, if you wanted to air them, you would have, so I'm not prying, but I was attempting to propose solutions to possible objections, as I'm not 'in the loop' to internal discussions. My only role is that of supporter/cheerleader of the idea or as idea 'espouser'...:-).

I don't know anyone or their skills and am probably dealing with people with more specialized skills than myself (usually the case), so I can only speak in generalities, please accept my apologies if I accidently offended anyone -- I was trying to speak clearly (algorithmically) about possible solutions to problems.

Hopefully, gratiously bowing out again...
*gulp*
A*a

vitaamin

vitaamin

DUKE 2010 NCAA CHAMPS!

ok sorry if i sound really curt and ungracious right now. i am grateful that you are proposing suggestions. but i am repeating myself here.

my objection is not the implementation although these are issues that staff takes into consideration. my objection is to the fundamental idea. i do not want the same tag being displayed under different names in the gallery. you can make the argument for english as primary display name, or japanese as primary display name. but i am not in agreement about allowing both, because it is confusing to have two different display names floating around in the gallery.

again this is a contextual argument. i dont think you understand that this tag system is not the same as in other communities. our tags allow users some freedom in assigning tags, but it is also moderated esp when it comes to series + mangakas and studios. this is because, among other reasons, we want to mirror sites like AP or other sites which have SPECIFIC categories for different series, mangakas and studios. for example at AP you do not get to choose whether your scan/wall gets to be put under the category in their english name or their romanji counterpart. a similar argument is applied to merged tags such as graveyard & cemeteries.

you are also getting your arguments confused. one argument is about the freedom to choose how your tag is displayed which i have addressed above. the second issue is about lettings members know where your source is from. addressing the second will not be solved by your proposed system, so i advise you to name where your source is from in the submission.

please also be advised that if i dont respond to this post, its not that im trying to ignore your argument. i think that i've spent a disproportionate time answering your request. i will read responses to this thread but only answer if i have something new to say.

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vector-wallers tag-licious

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