Warning: Undefined array key "HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE" in /var/www/minitokyo/www/includes/common.inc.php on line 360 Religion or Science: Which side are you on? - Minitokyo

Religion or Science: Which side are you on?

This thread is closed for posting.

page 6 of 9 « Previous 1... 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next » 197 total items

pocksone

pocksone

Dr. Fist

wow... a lot of interesting posts on this "sensitive" subject. I have and always will side with science, and never with religion. I was raised with religion, Baha'i' Faith, and went on a pilgrimage when I was 10 with my mother to Haifa and all of that... but none of my "logical" questions were ever answered, not one. Science is the search for knowledge that can be used to explain or predict natural phenomena in a way that can be confirmed by rigorous observations or experiments. Whereas religious events and doctrine take place in the world of the supernatural, which is outside the realm of science, and tells its followers to "believe" without question. It is much easier for me to believe the "big bang" theory since I've taken college astronomy and understand that the universe is expanding at an ever increasing rate. This is supported through spectral analysis by reading "Emission Lines", which will tells us that distant stars and other observable celestial objects that are "red shifted" are moving away from the us, the observer.

Long before Christianity and Islam existed, the Egyptians wrote the book of the dead, which is the foundation of all modern religions, specifically Christianity and its "ten commandments". Religion attempts to answer the unexplainable with ridiculous archaic fables. If people choose to believe in "myths" and "wives-tales" then there is nothing that they won't believe. There is no room for question or error in religion, you either "must" believe, or take your "faith" elsewhere. Not too long ago people used to believe in the many Gods of Greek and Roman history. None of these "gods" have been disproved, yet you'll be hard pressed to find followers of that ancient polytheistic culture. I can not, in good sense, believe that "the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life". (taken directly from the King James version of the Bible). I am forced to ask " what is the basis of this claim?" When I do ask, I get no answer aside from "It's gods will". That is not enough for me, nor should it be for anyone else. I can almost understand if a child were to believe in god, because they tend to believe just about anything, including Santa, and the Tooth Fairy. However, once we reach adulthood, we usually dismiss silly childhood things, but fiercely cling on to the idea of an "all powerful God".... why....? Is it because "we" are scared that once we die, that's it... is that why the "afterlife" was invented, to make people feel comfortable about death...? I don't know... but there is no reason to add the unnecessary, non plausible, and just flat out silly notions of living after we are deceased. Remember, we are animals, mammals living in our adapted animal kingdom, with a higher intelligence than just about any other creature on the planet. Lets use our intelligence for expanding, not for control and conquering.

An earlier post said something to the effect that there really weren't any religious wars. How silly. How about the crusades, the Spanish inquisition, world war 2, etc.... the term "religious war" in itself is a contradiction, just as most, if not all religions are.

With all that being said, I cannot group all religious peoples in the same category. I have plenty of religious friends and family, of different denominations, and despite the fact that we disagree on spirituality and religion doesn't make them, or myself (for not believing in god) bad people. It is in my humble opinion that the world would be a much better place without religion.

"give evil nothing to oppose and it will disappear by itself"

sammyui

sammyui

kyoruh-neko :))

you critical thinking "pocksone" is something great. Well, it undeniable that many people do not believe in God due to their skepticism. But also, what you said that in religion, that the basis of their believing is faith. Well, compared to other God that existed long time ago, there are no proofs that they are really alive and existing. But, the God that Christians believe are really true. It can be testified by many and at the same time, there are scientific evidence that support it. Also there are still many questions that are unanswered, well, I believe that not all things is destined for us to know..

I'm glad that I've read your posts :))

<3 I love him. So much I can hardly stand it. I can't almost stand, how much I want HIM to be MINE. So much it can't be beat <3

Archer89

Archer89

Just Another Faker

Ah...the ever familiar thread of debate. Science or Religion. Again this question makes me think hard and try to reach a conclusion but as always I fail to do so.

Religion. Whomever says that God does not exist get hammered and hard by lots of people. But still, I cannot bring myself to totally believe in the existence or absence of God. First and foremost, if you do believe in what scientists say, that the whole universe was created via the "Big Bang", then you probably cannot take in that God created every living thing in this world. While what the holy scriptures' records has its own truths, what the scientists say may not be wholly wrong. As we all know, (or not know) the nuclear reaction, that as Einstein stated, is a reaction that goes on forever and ever if uncontrolled. Let's say that nuclear reaction works the same way as what they called the "Big Bang". So this doesn't rule out that the universe might have started out that way. That being said, both Science and Religion has its truths.

Wait, what? You don't buy it? Then think this. If it is as stated in the holy scriptures, that us humans are only created by the Gods, a being which in all aspects are superior to humans, then wouldn't it be possible that humans might become Gods one day? Yes, power-crazy people do exist. A very good example would be Adolf Hitler. (no offense to anyone) People claimed he was crazy but what if he was only trying to become a higher existence? I know that playing god is just humans trying to not be themselves, but who can actually deny that they want to be something else? Something better, perhaps? And who can rule out that the Gods were not once humans, who through millions of years of evolution finally reached that stage? You do hear of unbelievable feats being performed by various people but what if that was actually possible to be done by everyone through proper training? What if nothing is really impossible, that anything can be done only if we had the faith? So what do we say when we see something like that? Most people would claim it's an act of God or something of the likes. But no one can prove or disprove anything. Not even through science.

So this is my stand. God exists. And so does Science. But who can actually say that God does not exist or that God did not create the so-called Science? No one can. And that's my point. It's up to yourselves what to believe in but no one can prove anything. Not even yourself. They may compel you into believing what they say, but at the end of the day it's what you believe in that matters. I myself am stuck in between but that's only because it's my choice. Everything exists for a reason. Even Religions. And I believe, that in time, that both Religions and Science will help humanity in their own ways.

Life - it's a one-shot affair

sammyui

sammyui

kyoruh-neko :))

It's true indeed that many were stuck in between of science and religion. The reason behind this is that both of it has a positive point that can cause many people to believe in it. Both have its own proof and both can give benefits to many.

Well, like what you said, the Big Bang Theory. Maybe its true, maybe not.. No one can fully say. Because even that theory has many unanswered questions. And the main thing is that has anyone witness that Big Bang Theory happening? of course none. If we stated that a matter consist of atoms, atoms consists of nucleus and so on, then where does the very first thing start? If we say that things happened naturally, does that convinced all our doubts ? definitely no. So in that case, there lies the truth that religion stated. What the Holy Scripture say.

Regarding the question that you stated, if humans can become God because He is the one who created us. Well, that's impossible. Many will try, but more will fail. Because the pot cannot be greater than its potter. In comparison. So if there is the possibility that we can be GOD, so, we humans should know everything without a doubt. There should be no questions like this if it is really true.
The other thing that you said, that being God can be acquired through proper training, well, I will not oppose that if there is really someone who will testify this claims.. The other thing which makes it for people to believe God is the fact that no one has ever seen Him. There comes the principle of Faith.

Indeed, there are many opinions, questions and doubt in this topic. But, it is right that both Science and Religion can benefit us all. And it is true that both of them really exist, some of their principles was the same, and some were contradicting. It is our role to think of which is right and more acceptable. But because we are not perfect, there comes the idea of wrong choices..

Great thread :)) I really enjoyed this discussion .

<3 I love him. So much I can hardly stand it. I can't almost stand, how much I want HIM to be MINE. So much it can't be beat <3

Archer89

Archer89

Just Another Faker

Quote by sammyuiIt's true indeed that many were stuck in between of science and religion. The reason behind this is that both of it has a positive point that can cause many people to believe in it. Both have its own proof and both can give benefits to many.

Well, like what you said, the Big Bang Theory. Maybe its true, maybe not.. No one can fully say. Because even that theory has many unanswered questions. And the main thing is that has anyone witness that Big Bang Theory happening? of course none. If we stated that a matter consist of atoms, atoms consists of nucleus and so on, then where does the very first thing start? If we say that things happened naturally, does that convinced all our doubts ? definitely no. So in that case, there lies the truth that religion stated. What the Holy Scripture say.

Regarding the question that you stated, if humans can become God because He is the one who created us. Well, that's impossible. Many will try, but more will fail. Because the pot cannot be greater than its potter. In comparison. So if there is the possibility that we can be GOD, so, we humans should know everything without a doubt. There should be no questions like this if it is really true.
The other thing that you said, that being God can be acquired through proper training, well, I will not oppose that if there is really someone who will testify this claims.. The other thing which makes it for people to believe God is the fact that no one has ever seen Him. There comes the principle of Faith.

Indeed, there are many opinions, questions and doubt in this topic. But, it is right that both Science and Religion can benefit us all. And it is true that both of them really exist, some of their principles was the same, and some were contradicting. It is our role to think of which is right and more acceptable. But because we are not perfect, there comes the idea of wrong choices..

Great thread :)) I really enjoyed this discussion .

You may have misunderstood me there. I did not mean it as one can become God through training. What I meant with "What if you can do the impossible through proper training?" is that one could become more than what one already is. I do agree on what you say though, that the pot cannot be better than the potter but an apprentice may outdo the master. What I'm trying to say here is that humans may have not yet reached the final stage of evolution. That humans may become more. I'm not saying that we, humans, will all become gods. I'm saying that we might just become an existence of our own. And that maybe something close to God. While through Science one cannot explain the paranormal and even unbelievable phenomena, in Christian teachings, a lot have been proven. Noah's Ark. And in recent times, the existence of Goliaths, the monstrous giant that David brought down, has been proven.

Does it not occur strange to you? That throughout history, all that this era has brought forth is technology and nothing else. But look back and you'll notice that our predecessors did way more compared to us. Construction-wise, the Egyptians have made an impossible to mimic structure that we all call the pyramid. The Hanging Gardens of Babylon is another good example. But despite that, is it not strange? That they, civilizations that do not even have cars, cranes or machines could build such magnificent structures? And hereby lies my point. What I'm saying is that humans on the quest to "alleviate" their life burdens have actually made them neglect a lot of important items. Even though we're not Einsteins, it's not hard to see that our predecessors did a lot more grander things compared to us. Perhaps, that in the mass development of technology and the likes, humans have lost themselves in that.

PS - I'm writing this based on my own opinions. Even though I use language in albeit, a strange way, I consider myself to be one of those humans who are lost in the wave of development.

Life - it's a one-shot affair

sammyui

sammyui

kyoruh-neko :))

Definitely, that's a great point. That in today's generation, the people are more focused on technology and the more great and valuable things are neglected. The people are striving and doing their very best for a great place in this society, which is determined by the things that you owned, which in my perception is a sad thing. Now I get your point.

Well, in this sense, the people should know their purpose, so that being lost into confusion and just following the flow will be avoided. I also admit that me too, most of the time are also lost in the wave of development because majority of the people around is also like that. So because of that, it is hard to detect the real situation. Because the pleasure that advanced technology offers has covered the real thing. And it is really a great advantage for you that you're able to knew this things.
The sense of purpose is really the thing that should matter before everything.

I'm glad that I'm able to know your opinions regarding this matter :))

<3 I love him. So much I can hardly stand it. I can't almost stand, how much I want HIM to be MINE. So much it can't be beat <3

pocksone

pocksone

Dr. Fist

ok.... here is where one of my biggest problems with religion lies... when folks like Archer89 above make statements such as ("in recent times, the existence of Goliaths, the monstrous giant that David brought down, has been proven.")..... seriously...?! Do you have any direct evidence to support such a claim. Please, for the sake of great skeptics, can you provide any information on any testable scientific theoretical models that support any biblical reference. If so, please share.

"give evil nothing to oppose and it will disappear by itself"

Senseless101

Senseless101

Sense me

depends on the topic :s
There are many things in this world that science can only explain and vice versa :P

Signature Image[img]http://www.eggcave.com/egg/229520.png[/img]

pocksone

pocksone

Dr. Fist

...by "vice versa" do you mean to say that there are things that only religion can explain...? if so, please, enlighten me. If not, can you clarify?

"give evil nothing to oppose and it will disappear by itself"

Humankind needs both is what i think. Without science we would be ignorant. Without religion people would just fall into despair. That's my theory anyway

sammyui

sammyui

kyoruh-neko :))

Quote by pocksone...by "vice versa" do you mean to say that there are things that only religion can explain...? if so, please, enlighten me. If not, can you clarify?


Well, science answers well questions about the functioning of things, about the laws that govern the universe. It however fails to answer philosophical questions of existence, like "what is our purpose in life", "why the laws of universe are the way they are" and so on. This is not due to limitations of science, but because today's scientists have chosen not to answer such questions. Today's science has eliminated "human" from the equation and has chosen to investigate only cold matter. So when the human factors comes into the question, today's scientists are unable to say something. If - as a scientist - you have taken for granted that nothing that cold matter, atoms and electrons exist, then how can you answer the big questions of life? You simply can't. And that is why the scientific community was so much troubled by the findings of quantum physics (where the human-observer actually formulates the physics laws): they were startled to find that "human" exists! So such a question you ask is rather difficult to answer. Religion really tries to answer the big questions of life - not only based on faith but also on common sense. I think both science and religion should be used to reach the truth - they are complementary ways of thinking, not contradictory.

Science does come up with many answers, but when all else fails the miracle of faith is beyond explanation! It was once true that scientists relied on facts and not faith and few believed in faith, but, that is changing a little more all the time. Science attempts to explain how; religion attempts to explain why. Occasionally the two cross over.

My conclusion is that we should not expect one key to open every lock. We should not expect any specific type of scientific explanation to explain everything. So to say that "science explains everything" is just the hypostatisation of an abstraction. It is not so much that it is false as that it lacks meaning.

<3 I love him. So much I can hardly stand it. I can't almost stand, how much I want HIM to be MINE. So much it can't be beat <3

science. i went to a religious school

Senseless101

Senseless101

Sense me

Quote:
Well, science answers well questions about the functioning of things, about the laws that govern the universe. It however fails to answer philosophical questions of existence, like "what is our purpose in life", "why the laws of universe are the way they are" and so on. This is not due to limitations of science, but because today's scientists have chosen not to answer such questions. Today's science has eliminated "human" from the equation and has chosen to investigate only cold matter. So when the human factors comes into the question, today's scientists are unable to say something. If - as a scientist - you have taken for granted that nothing that cold matter, atoms and electrons exist, then how can you answer the big questions of life? You simply can't. And that is why the scientific community was so much troubled by the findings of quantum physics (where the human-observer actually formulates the physics laws): they were startled to find that "human" exists! So such a question you ask is rather difficult to answer. Religion really tries to answer the big questions of life - not only based on faith but also on common sense. I think both science and religion should be used to reach the truth - they are complementary ways of thinking, not contradictory.

Science does come up with many answers, but when all else fails the miracle of faith is beyond explanation! It was once true that scientists relied on facts and not faith and few believed in faith, but, that is changing a little more all the time. Science attempts to explain how; religion attempts to explain why. Occasionally the two cross over.

My conclusion is that we should not expect one key to open every lock. We should not expect any specific type of scientific explanation to explain everything. So to say that "science explains everything" is just the hypostatisation of an abstraction. It is not so much that it is false as that it lacks meaning.

Exactly... this is what I mean about my previous statement. I just read this today so I think there is no need for me to explain because sammyui already explained it... thanks sammyui :)

Signature Image[img]http://www.eggcave.com/egg/229520.png[/img]

sammyui

sammyui

kyoruh-neko :))

Quote by Senseless101

Exactly... this is what I mean about my previous statement. I just read this today so I think there is no need for me to explain because sammyui already explained it... thanks sammyui :)

you're welcome. It just happens that your way of viewing things is the same as mine.
nice idea indeed ! :))

<3 I love him. So much I can hardly stand it. I can't almost stand, how much I want HIM to be MINE. So much it can't be beat <3

Archer89

Archer89

Just Another Faker

Quote by pocksoneok.... here is where one of my biggest problems with religion lies... when folks like Archer89 above make statements such as ("in recent times, the existence of Goliaths, the monstrous giant that David brought down, has been proven.")..... seriously...?! Do you have any direct evidence to support such a claim. Please, for the sake of great skeptics, can you provide any information on any testable scientific theoretical models that support any biblical reference. If so, please share.

I get what you mean. But even if it does not actually "prove" that David did bring down something like that it does prove that Goliaths existed. And with that, the possibility that the event did take place is proven. I mean can you imagine yourself standing to something like this?

http://b.imagehost.org/t/0048/ATT00007.jpg

Plus, it's not like I'm "luring" you into believing what I'm saying. As I said in my first post, I only believe what happens to me. And as sammyui stated, occasionally the two cross-over.

I mean if ghosts actually exist, no one has been able to explain it. Scientists try to explain it via Science but they still can't explain it thoroughly. They say that ghosts are actually electrical power (or something of the sort) left over from human "will". Meaning that they are manifested from something that one regrets not doing before they die. But herein lies the problem. How then does one explain this "will". How do we even explain that everyone still alive has what we call a "soul" in their bodies? How can we be sure that we actually have something inside our bodies that make us move, talk, speak and do anything else? Even the way scientists explain dreams is dubious.

I'm not saying Science does not have its truths, I'm just saying there are a lot of things out there that can't be explained through Science. Sometimes, even the top scientists turn to God in hours of need, even if they did not believe in God. And that's my only point, that both Religion and Science exists for their own reasons.

Life - it's a one-shot affair

pocksone

pocksone

Dr. Fist

hahahahahahahahahaha.....! that pic proves nothing but your gullibility. I don't mean to disrespect you, but there is no way that I can take your "proof" seriously. No respected anthropologist would ever accept that digitally manipulated image as evidence of ancient giant humans. As a graphic designer and rational thinker, I know your provided image to be false. And "no", you can not lure me to your beliefs, especially using "proof" that lacks any and all credibility. C'mon man, please use common sense, just a little bit goes a long way. I agree that some of the worlds scientists are religious... albeit, a small percentage of them.

The truth of the matter is that religion is a man made invention. Look up the Lascaux caves in France. You'll find images of some of the first known cave paintings. In these paintings are images of animals and people. Not one religious depiction was among the images. Theology is the effort to explain the unknowable in terms of the not worth knowing.

Do yourself a favor, look around, look all around you... everything that you see that was not formed by nature,has been designed through the use of science. You might come back with a retort claiming that 'god' made nature. If your reasoning is that every natural thing was created by the "god" the creator, well then, who created the creator...? Well, until this fabled, mythological, omnipotent being shows itself, I will not succumb to its tenants. If god has "spoken", then why is the world not convinced...?

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

"give evil nothing to oppose and it will disappear by itself"

Archer89

Archer89

Just Another Faker

Ah, got caught xD Well, for starters, that pic was just put there for the fun of it. And I know what you mean when you say that Religion is a man made invention and how everything that we use in daily life is based on Science but have you ever given this a little thought? A lot of what is regarded as Science exists in nature and are all "natural reactions" so to speak. Not that I ain't giving Science credit but how then do you explain the existence of these reactions? How did they just come into existence? Someone or something must have made it that way. I'm not implying that God did that but maybe something did. Aliens, perhaps? I mean if you explain through Darwin's theory of evolution, it's still just a possibility as theory is nothing proven.

And as to why the world is not convinced? That God actually exists? Well, the answer to that is quite simple. The answer lies within you. Ask yourself the very same question and you'll find the answer. I mean if you can believe in the possibility of Science, surely you can take some time to believe in God for that matter. It would not make you a poorer person in any way.

And as a side note, I don't really dismiss all other gods. I just believe in this God more than the others truthfully because there are a few incidents regarding my life that happened. To put it short, let's just say I got "convinced". It's like an ocean of emotions just greater. And no, no words nor scientist can say what happened to me then. They may explain emotions as hormone surges but I myself simply cannot fathom it.

Life - it's a one-shot affair

pocksone

pocksone

Dr. Fist

wow.... so many contradictions to tackle, thanks for the challenge... I guess I'll begin below...

#1. You wrote - ("A lot of what is regarded as Science exists in nature and are all "natural reactions" so to speak.") ...are you speaking in circles on purpose...? Of course "what is regarded as science exists in nature"...! Science "IS" the study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

#2. You wrote - ("I mean if you explain through Darwin's theory of evolution, it's still just a possibility as theory is nothing proven.") a "theory" can't be proven, it can only be disproved, that's why it's called a "THEORY"....hypothetically speaking... :D

#3. You wrote - ("The answer lies within you. Ask yourself the very same question and you'll find the answer. I mean if you can believe in the possibility of Science, surely you can take some time to believe in God for that matter.") I have two separate responses for this one. First is the transcript of the conversation I had with myself in regards to the existence of a "god", and I didn't just ask myself, I asked Me too. Second is my response to "believing in the possibility of science."

I asks myself: 'do you believe in the existence of "god"'
myself responds: "hhhmmmmm.... there is no way to prove or disprove it, but really, there is no reason to believe it either, so we don't"
I responds: "we...? who is we...?"
myself says: "you dummy, we are me, myself and I"
I says: "oh yeah, I forgot about me. Me, what do you think...?"
me replies: "don't bother me, me is watching Inception right now"
I responds: "well f#@k me then...!" "It's not just myself and I you know..."
myself confusingly says: "You...? who in the heck is you...?!"
I says: "you are me, myself and I... that's who you are"
me responds sharply: "me thought that "we" are me, myself and I... not you..."
I says angrily: "just answer the damn question...!"
myself yells back: "well stop talking in circles then...!"
I replies: "well....?"
me then says: "well what...?'
I says: "well... just answer the question... please...?!"
me finally answered: "I do believe in god, only I call it nature"
I responds with satisfaction: "well said me, very well said... I wish I would've thought of that...!"

Thanks for suggesting that I ask myself that question Archer89, it's all so clear now... we are so relieved, whew...!

Now then... the world is not convinced because a great deal of humans chose to think for themselves, and not follow archaic ways of thought or allow ancient useless fables to dictate how they should live. Nonbelievers don't need the ten commandments or any other religious doctrine to learn moral correctness. Nonbelievers choose to do the right thing because it is the right thing to do, not because of an inherent fear of imaginary boiler rooms and furnaces tended by Freddy Krueger. Its only natural that as we progress technologically, we should progress socially and in thought as well.

As for believing in the "possibility" of science... well, I don't "believe" in science per say, I understand it, I use its process of observation with deductive reasoning. I welcome it because of the technological advancements and progression that have benefited humanity. I am, however, not so narrow minded in my vision that I am unaware of the plethora of negatives that have come from science as well, i.e; nuclear weapons, or weapons in general, carbon emissions, bible printing, and gas chambers. I don't take "time" to believe in god because there is no point. There is no need to complicate our simple existence with silly notions of the land of make believe. If you wish to believe in absurdity, be my guest, and please give Prince Tuesday and King Friday my best regards.

Finally, is this quote ("I don't really dismiss all other gods. I just believe in this God more than the others") um....... which god is "this" god.... and how many darn gods do you actually believe in...?! If you believe in one god more than the others, then you obviously must believe in all gods to a certain extent. (this is called "a logical conclusion") Tell me, what are the names of all these gods...? ( Thor, Loki, Odin, Seht, Rah, Horus, Zeus, Brahma, Buddha, Shiva, Ahthena, Poseidon... who..?) ...are they on facebook, do they tweet... are they vegetarians, carnivores, or omnivores... seriously, I would like to know so I can begin to follow them... but only through scientific, technological means of course. Do you pray...? if so, do you also send yearly Christmas lists to Ol' St. Nick...? Did you ask the Tooth Fairy for receipts when she took your baby teeth, did you tell the boogie man to "ease on down the road" and to stop sleeping under your bed...?

Do you go to church, if so, do you pay tithes...? If you do pay tithes, can you tell me why an omnipotent being needs human currency...? (perhaps god wants an XBox 360 Kinect, an iPhone 4 and a six pack of Pepsi... better yet, god can just ask Santa since the worlds economy is in the toilet) ooooh...! Speaking of omnipotence, how does a being of unfathomable powers with total control over everything, sink low enough to display petty human emotions like jealousy and anger...? How does a "god" that loves you and cares for you, force you to be eternal bed buddies with Freddy in the boiler room if you don't believe in him/her...? How and why do Christians not question the incestuous relations Kane and Able had with their mother and sisters...? Why are women oppressed in all major religions, specifically Islam...? Why are there no female priests in Catholicism...? Why are priests denied the basic human right to propagate, resulting in the molestation of innocent children...? Why are the "big three" religions so intolerant of each other when their respective doctrines supposedly teach peace...? Why do so many christian sects feel the need to go door-to-door on "recruitment" campaigns instead of allowing people to find their own way...? Why does Christianity have over 34,000 different sects or sub groups...? I'll tell you, because The Bible, The Qur'an, and The Torah and all other religious doctrine are all subject to interpretation. Remember, a church divided is no church at all.

Further more, religious belief has caused more fragmentation and conflict than any other ideology throughout recorded human history. All theistic religions operate with the same social irrelevancy and only exist as barriers to personal and social growth. Each group perpetuates a closed world view. This finite understanding that they acknowledge is simply not possible in an emergent universe. Yet religion has succeeded in shutting down the awareness of this emergence by instilling the psychological distortion of faith upon its followers where logic and new information is rejected in favor of traditional, outdated beliefs.

Once we understand that the integrity of our personal existences are completely dependent on the integrity of everything else in our world, we will have truly understood the meaning of unconditional love. For love is extensional, and seeing everything as you, and you as everything can have no conditions, for, in fact we are all everything at once.

...forget Oreo's eat Pocksone cookies, I'm Bad...!

"give evil nothing to oppose and it will disappear by itself"

Archer89

Archer89

Just Another Faker

Everything you say has its point. Truly a good thread to keep visiting because of you.

pocksone, you have answered the question very well. You don't believe in God because there's no reason to. Cause there's no proof. Everything we speak of, it has to be about proof and quite frankly I can't say nothing more bout that. I believe in God solely because of something that happened in my life but nothing has happened in yours. And this "proof" of mine simply cannot be used to explain anything to you as it is what they call a contemplation perhaps. yes, those who have experienced such moments can testify as to what they went through but that is not "proof" enough to anyone else. Am I correct in that respect? Ergo. One can only, as you say, deduct what one sees, hears, smells, tastes and touches by themselves. There simply is no other way to interpret them! Yes, there may be a group of people called Psychologists who can interpret why one goes through a certain change but there is no way that they can "read" others, oh so plainly, like books. There simply are times when even the best Psychologists and Doctors cannot explain what has happened.

Par exemple, you might have or might have not heard about this but there are cases where people are "miraculously" healed from certain diseases like incurable cancer. I do not remember when I read this news but it was a case involving a woman with incurable cancer. The doctors said that she had little less than 3 months to live, and gave her pain-relieving medication. The woman, wanting to cherish her final moments, went on a trip with her husband. And during that trip, she became quite religious after sitting through the Church one Sunday. She started praying day and night. The only thing keeping her going was her husband and the prayers. After 3 months had passed, the woman was still alive. She then proceeded to look for the doctor who diagnosed her with incurable cancer. She went through another check-up and the doctor found that the cancer cells were all gone. The doctor, thinking the machines were at fault, ran tests on other machines and they showed the same result. The woman was free of cancer. The only thing the doctor mentioned during an interview with the press was this. "This is a miracle. It simply cannot be explained." You may think I'm making this up but I'm being a 100% honest. I don't remember the details as it was an article from around 9 years ago and mind you, I was a kid.

I'm Christian and I am quite proud of it. People do ask crazy questions to me at school such as "Do you go to heaven if you're a Christian?" and "Do you get any benefits if you're a Christian?" but as I have stated, I simply cannot answer them. I can only retort to them this. "Do you get richer if you're not a Christian?" And as a matter of fact, I'm quite into the legend and myths of other religions. (Buddhism, Hinduism) As if that's not enough, I quite like Greek and Norse myth myself. But Egyptian legends are confusing. Still I do not totally rule out the idea of having gods that govern something. I mean if humans, like you and I, like to do so, why wouldn't those with power transcending ours want to? I mean nowadays if you do opt-out of a full-body scan at the airport, you'll get searched by security even though they say the scanning is optional. And they're gonna pass more laws on the internet. We might not be even able to do something like this when they do. I mean I do understand if they wanna protect kids from inappropriate content but mind you, passing one law will lead to the other. Maybe in ten years time, the internet would require tons of "paperwork" to access.

Sorry for the digression. Just had to vent that somewhere. So back to my point. Why do I believe in these myths. Well first off, the proof you like so much. There are proof left behind. Temples, monasteries, you name it. I mean if they did not exist, why, I ask thee. Why did the people of that time build something like that? Just to get themselves tired? It's not actually easy to build something of that size and fill it with carvings and such at that time. It's hard labor. If they were forced to work as slaves, then I'd understand but what Archaeologists discovered does not indicate so. Yes, Egyptians were forced to build the pyramids, we all know that but what about those runestone invocations or image stones discovered that had something to do with Thor? Oh don't forget the ardre image stones. They've got quite a detail on the Norse mythology. How would you explain that then? And while you're at it, do give me some info on Stonehenge as well because I clearly lack any knowledge of how that had come into place if "magic" and "god" do not actually exist.

And oh, Santa doesn't exist. I mean everyone knows he's just made up from Saint Nicholas's story. Christmas as a celebration is just like Valentine's day imo. You do know where the very first valentine came from, don't you?

And finally, why religions are scattered in sects? I ponder that myself. mm...let's see. Ah! You've answered it yourself.

Quote by pocksoneall other religious doctrine are all subject to interpretation.

And that is why. There exist a number of Religions throughout the world today but who can actually rule out that it started as one? Religions all share one common viewpoint and that is to teach their believers into becoming good people. Yes, there may be difference in the teachings but hey as you said, it all comes down to one's interpretation. But as to my understanding, when one person misinterprets, others are bound to follow. It's just a normal case of monkey see, monkey do. If you misunderstand something and do not realize it but you spread on the misunderstanding to others, that wave will continue for quite a while as you are certain that what you say is correct. You do understand where I'm getting at, right? I'm saying that the sprouting of new Religions and teachings is wholly humans own fault. Us, being humans have a little something called "ego". And well that's what I say.

Life - it's a one-shot affair

pocksone

pocksone

Dr. Fist

I don't want you to feel that I'm attacking you and your beliefs, I am not. I am simply questioning the world of religion and pointing out its hypocrisies, crimes and uselessness.

It's not so much "proof" or lack there of that makes me a nonbeliever, it's my understanding of human thought, and the realization that we are quite a feeble-minded species. There is no reason for me to believe. Religion is littered with too many hypocrisies, child-like fables, and false answers to questions that have no answers. It's too easy and quite lazy to mislabel something a miracle or attribute it as "gods will" if the nature of the "event" isn't understood. If we apply Occam's Razor to religious belief, we'll find that once all of the miracles, prophecies, and magical acts are stripped, all that remains are moral lessons. That is why "god" is not necessary. As feeble-minded as we are, we are still intelligent enough to know how to appropriately treat one another. Those of us who are not intelligent enough to know, need to be taught by the ones that are morally sound. (easier said than done)

As for your cancer story, its the perfect example of "subject to interpretation". You say the story says that after praying and loving her husband, the patient was cancer free. (sounds like the character "Rose" on Lost) Seeing as how this story took place around 9 years ago, and you can't place where the story was published, leaves me to take the story as is, from someone on the other side of the internet. I say that the patient was misdiagnosed from the onset. It happened in the past, and continues to happen today. A friend of my Mom's was misdiagnosed with Myeloma just three weeks ago. It turns out, after multiple tests, that he has large calcium deposits in his spine where he had spinal surgery last year, and not cancer. Whatever the reason for your story's protagonists "unknown" healing was simply missed by doctors. To conclude the incident was a "miracle" is just silly. It's much simpler to just say "I don't know". I understand that there are a great many things that I will never know, but it would be premature of me to label an "unknown" incident, or event as a miracle or an act of god. A "miracle" is nothing more than people not knowing. If and when I witness an event that I can't explain, I will continue to question it, I may never get an answer, but I certainly won't toss it in the clouds waiting for an answer from "god". I am perfectly okay with admitting when I don't know something. I'll give you an example. Can you explain gravity and how or why it works throughout the universe...? I'm sure you can not. Its not a knock against your intelligence, but no one can define gravity. Gravity is defined as a theory. It can't be seen, smelled, or touched... yet we know it exists, and we do not classify it as a "miracle" or an act of god when we toss a ball in the air and it immediately falls back down. (unless it gets stuck in a tree or on someones roof) :D

I'm humbled that you'd quote me, however, the entire quote was not used. How convenient. ALL religious doctrine, including yours, is left up to interpretation, not just the ones outside of the "big three".

Ancient ruins and temples are exactly that, ancient ruins. What they were used for and how they were built are subject to debate. To place these relics at the heart of your argument for the existence of a "god" is foolish. Archaeologists can keep digging til' their hands fall off... they won't dig up god or find him anywhere else except within the recesses of the mind of the rationally impaired. What they might find are relics that ancient humans used to worship, but nothing holier than worm tunneled dirt. The people of "that" time probably built those structures for the same reasons that people of this current era build churches and mosques. The great architecture of the Greeks and Romans is often questioned as to how they were built. I've never heard of anyone claiming that these structures are divine in nature. As for Stonehenge, I can't answer that, no one can. All we can do is speculate as to how it was constructed and what it was used for. Again, no need to categorize it in the realm of the supernatural.

Your last paragraph is confusing. Are you in agreement with me or aren't you... because truthfully, you're proving my point quite well. I don't think that I could have said it better. (I suppose I should thank you for that) According to you, "the sprouting of new religions and teachings is wholly humans own fault", which was posted after I wrote "religion is a man made invention." What about the old religions... Is that not the case with them as well...? Are you not following right along with "monkey see, monkey do" since the percentage of the worlds religious population is probably in the 90th percentile, or more. Having "faith" and leaving religious teachings open to interpretation is extremely dangerous. I say this because whenever morality is based on theology, whenever right is made dependent on divine authority, the most immoral, unjust, infamous and heinous atrocities can be justified... and that, my friend, is not acceptable at all. Can you re-read your last paragraph... because I am wondering how any religious person who is content with their convictions could write something like that...

The bottom line is this. Religion and god are not necessary requisites of becoming a good people. One thing has nothing to do with the other. It is also unintelligible to categorize the "unknown" as "miracles". The only "miracle" that I acknowledge is when I'm ready to "whip" up a ham sandwich.

Nuff' Said

Oh... you never did answer any of my proposed questions (with the exception of Santa and your revision of my own answer) I don't know if you can, can't or just refused or forgot... there were quite a few, so I'll go ahead and re-post them below...

[Do you go to church, if so, do you pay tithes...? If you do pay tithes, can you tell me why an omnipotent being needs human currency...? (perhaps god wants an XBox 360 Kinect, an iPhone 4 and a six pack of Pepsi... better yet, god can just ask Santa since the worlds economy is in the toilet) ooooh...! Speaking of omnipotence, how does a being of unfathomable powers with total control over everything, sink low enough to display petty human emotions like jealousy and anger...? How does a "god" that loves you and cares for you, force you to be eternal bed buddies with Freddy in the boiler room if you don't believe in him/her...? How and why do Christians not question the incestuous relations Kane and Able had with their mother and sisters...? Why are women oppressed in all major religions, specifically Islam...? Why are there no female priests in Catholicism...? Why are priests denied the basic human right to propagate, resulting in the molestation of innocent children...? Why are the "big three" religions so intolerant of each other when their respective doctrines supposedly teach peace...? Why do so many christian sects feel the need to go door-to-door on "recruitment" campaigns instead of allowing people to find their own way...? Why does Christianity have over 34,000 different sects or sub groups...? I'll tell you, because The Bible, The Qur'an, and The Torah and all other religious doctrine are all subject to interpretation. Remember, a church divided is no church at all.]

...tag... You're IT...!

merged: 11-11-2010 ~ 09:07am

Quote by sammyuiWell, compared to other God that existed long time ago, there are no proofs that they are really alive and existing. But, the God that Christians believe are really true. It can be testified by many and at the same time, there are scientific evidence that support it. Also there are still many questions that are unanswered, well, I believe that not all things is destined for us to know..

...proofs...? It's so easy for religious folk to claim that there is proof that "their" god exists, but provide no facts or empirical evidence to support their claims. Please, provide your "scientific evidence". I have looked, searched, and scoured all over, but you might have something that I couldn't find... aside from "faith". (...please make a better attempt than Archer89 and his petrified "Goliath" skull...) Also, how can an omnipotent being that "existed a long time ago", not exist now...?! If a god is an all-knowing, all-powerful entity, how can it die...? (perhaps "god" dies when we foolish mortals stop believing in him/her/it)

Quote by sammyuiit depends on your own understanding and accepting of facts ..

sammyui, you are so correct... I accept the facts, all of them... However, not one of those fact points to the existence of a "god", not one.... I challenge you and any other 'believer' in this forum to produce anything that can support the claim that a "god" exists...! I guarantee that I will be able to refute it with sound, logical and rational thinking... (of course, you don't have to entertain me, but, if you post that proof exists of these supernatural creatures, you should share it. You never know, you just might convince a nonbeliever to turn to the dark side) ;D

"give evil nothing to oppose and it will disappear by itself"

sammyui

sammyui

kyoruh-neko :))

After reading your post, I thought for a moment… Can I prove the existence of God -- scientifically? In my religious/moral/philosophical experience, He’s been proven to me. Not scientifically or a proof that can be measured by scientific methods. A proof that deals more in personal life. However, you hasn’t walked the same journey as me. You wants the facts --you wants the naturalistic proof for a supernatural reality.
I came to the conclusion that you're question was a fair one. You deserved my best attempt at an answer.
But before that, I need you to answer my question, Have you really thought about some of the evidences for God? Or, are you presupposing a purely naturalistic world, and closing your eyes to some of the possible evidence? If I propose some observational evidence, are you even open to examining it? Because even a million of explanations will be meaningless to a person who really doesn't want to believe.

When it comes to the question, “Does God Exist,” there are really only two possible conclusions: God either is, or He isn’t. There’s no half-way. There’s no sliding scale. Whether you’re an atheist or whether you’re a theist, there’s a certain level of knowledge, and there’s a certain level of faith.

Skeptics of Creation and evolutionists dispute, “Does God exist?” While science probes the “how” of our existence, man still ponders the “why” of his design. Science must operate within self-imposed limitations: 1) Science cannot give final, absolute answers, and 2) Science can only deal with that which is in some way observable and measurable in the physical universe. “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities -- his eternal power and divine nature -- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse” (Romans 1:20).

In any scientific debate, the theories must be tested according to the evidence. We propose that the burden of evidence should be upon the Evolutionists, since Creation has been the historic and inherent default throughout virtually all cultures and religions until roughly the last 200 years. Of course, Evolutionists, who view themselves as the only "scientists" in the debate, insist that the burden of evidence be upon the Creationists. Evolutionists reason, we cannot see the Creator, we cannot hear the Creator, and we cannot touch, taste or smell the Creator. Therefore, we are unable to test for the Creator with any form of scientific equipment developed thus far. Creationists retort, we cannot see, hear, touch, taste, or smell the human mind. We cannot test for the human mind with any form of scientific equipment developed thus far. When we run an electroencephalogram, we are measuring salt flow and electrical activity within the human brain. We cannot so much as even locate the human mind. Yet we watch as human carcasses run about, making order of disorder, conscious decisions according to subconscious criteria. We see the design and complexity that result from the operation of the brain through the invisible realm known as the mind. Thus, we know with certainty that the human mind exists. Therefore, it's absolutely logical for Creationists to postulate the existence of a Creator based upon the same "evidence." The design we see all around us came from one, grand concept, and such a concept can only come from a complex Mind. Furthermore, the mathematical and physical laws inherent in all things (including, most dramatically, the Laws of Thermodynamics and the Law of Cause and Effect) effectively validate this evidentiary claim.

Creationists believe the universe was designed to be complex by an Intelligent Designer. Evolutionists, in their effort to exclude a designer, contend that complexity has developed from simplicity over time. Evolutionists view time as their solution. However, hard science tells us that time is the enemy of complexity. This fact has been so well documented that it has obtained the stature of a physical law, the "Second Law of Thermodynamics."

Theology is ultimately concerned with ontology -- to whom, or to what, does the universe owe its existence? Questions relating to ontology, therefore, are not matters of scientific enquiry. The scientific methodology presupposes uniformity in the fundamental physical laws and constants. It can thus not answer questions pertaining to their origin without reasoning in a circle.

In conclusion, theology and science -- though related -- are fundamentally two types of enquiry. While one can certainly inform the other, one may not be misused to trump the other.

Ultimately, whether couched as scientific inquiry or purely religious/moral/philosophical faith, it’s not a matter for the laboratory. It’s a personal, investigative decision for each and every one of us.

Well, this are the answers that I can give to your questions. But, I tell you, If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away.
So to understand the point of each one of us, we should be open-minded. right ?

:))


<3 I love him. So much I can hardly stand it. I can't almost stand, how much I want HIM to be MINE. So much it can't be beat <3

kyosuke2

kyosuke2

Lazy People Gather All The World

if comes to job, work, computer, or health, i prefer science as well..

but when it comes to sense or heart or relationship, i believe religion is the best way...

I know everyone is lazy, but none would admit it. Needs big bravery to admit I am lazy, yet I would do it. Let's start a campaign of laziness, let's everyone just sleep enough everyday, without any moron jobs. Hell yeah, sleep is da best. It's lazy democracy, from lazy people, for lazy people, by lazy people, ya know!!!

Quote by CrystalEyedHyugaI am a Catholic, but I aim to mix science with religious belief.(I will give my OPINION, so if you don't agree, no need to hate me) God created the world, and he gave us all knowledge, free will and reasoning---that's where science comes in. Science is the human form of the explanation of how and why things are the way they are. Science has no room for belief of magic, right? Such an "impossible" feat is unheard of, they say. Is it because humans can't accept religion to explain everything, is that why? But, I believe, when we die and go to heaven, God will then give us all the answers.


What do you think?

I totally agree.


Peace ...

Science. They can prove everything in probably 2000 years. LOL

page 6 of 9 « Previous 1... 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next » 197 total items

Back to Religion & Science | Active Threads | Forum Index

Only members can post replies, please register.

Warning: Undefined array key "cookienotice" in /var/www/minitokyo/www/html2/footer.html on line 73
This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse the site you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Read more.