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Category Corruption

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Astara

Astara

Scanner, Artistic

I am trying to post some pictures related to the Anime Series.

I just had a picture deleted from the Series category claiming it was a dup -- but since there was no category for the series, it's hard to see how there could be dup.

There is a MESS of a category that needs to be separated out and cleaned up.

Queen's Blade Game, Queen's Blade Rebellion Game -- maybe the games could be in their own group. There are stylistic difference in the characters -- but the worst problem,

Someone is tagging all the Queens **GATE**, images with QB, -- and those are completely separate!

I tried to contact one person who was doing it but they insist that the children's game and the adult anime are the same ...

Needless to say, at 1000+ images in the scanDB, it's impossible to find anything -- especially when MT has been very slow for me over the past few days -- network problems.

Can this category be split up and clean -- it makes finding anything impossible --
Especially when unrelated categories like Queens GATE (a children's game) gets added into the mix.

Someone deleted at least one of my Series pictures -- but I know thre were no dups in the Series category. How do I explain to them that in order for me to find dups, they need to be in a non-messed up category? ;^)....I can't search by keyword in this case....

Help...and can someone clean the queens gate out of the QB category? I can't delete all the bad tags, but of the first few pages I looked at, nearly 60% were not even from the queens blade series.

would really appreciate some help in cleaning up this mess...

A*a

angelxxuan

angelxxuan

ぬいぐるみ !

I looked into it and saw what you mean. since I don't know what's what, because I don't really know much about it, I'll pass this message onto a mod in that area so they can look into it. thanks for bringing this to the attention of the site. I can't see who's doing the mass tagging, it just shows a blank section on my end, but I'm certain a mod can see it. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they are trying to work on obtaining credits by tagging things wrong.

BuBbLeS!


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kayurachan

Retired Moderator

kayurachan

Mado&Fen are my Gods.

...Queen's Gate a children's game?! O_O
Come on Astara, please tell me you're joking.
Thanx God regular member can't delete tags or this would be a BIG big mess...
I'm taking personally care of Queen's Blade (and other child games) tags so please refer to me for tagging this game, since you don't clearly know it.
Just use some Wikipedia and you'll see all "Queen's" brands are linked. Our tagging is correct.

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!Death to J-Rock scans! >.<
What is Kayurachan doing? Just see it on my userpage :3
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Astara

Astara

Scanner, Artistic

Quote by kayurachan...Queen's Gate a children's game?! O_O
Come on Astara, please tell me you're joking.
Thanx God regular member can't delete tags or this would be a BIG big mess...
I'm taking personally care of Queen's Blade (and other child games) tags so please refer to me for tagging this game, since you don't clearly know it.
Just use some Wikipedia and you'll see all "Queen's" brands are linked. Our tagging is correct.

According to wikipedia:
Queen's Gate is a supplement to the game that uses licensed characters from other games and series.


1) since they are are separate and different characters would be 1 good reason to put them in their own category. No one can find just "queens blade' characters from the anime. They get the anime, the game AND some other cast of characters.

The drawing styles are different enough between the anime and the game that I'd split them too. At over 1000 pictures its too difficult to scan through the topic -- and as such, it's "unorganized" it's not broken down by the specific show or game.
It IS a mess. If regular members had the time to do your work, it would at least be done.

Even Inuyasha which ran for 7-10 years depending on how you count, only has a third as many.

Please use common sense when managing categories -- when they get too large, people can't find artwork related to a specific series -- which was/is the case here. It took nearly an hour due to the same network problems causing large images to never complete, to go through and find the supposed dupes -- that were smaller fuzzier and had more junk on them.

The reason people are getting timeouts on the images is they are getting low download rates from static -- which also makes searching take forever. I got an average 6.94K/s downloading a 4mb image -- taking ~ 10 minutes. At 15mb, that would take ~30+.
I'm sure something is timing out and breaking the connection.

But 6.94K/s is a bit low -- seems to drop packets up in Europe when I do a traceroute.

Meanwhile, please don't conflate separate casts of characters. They aren't the same (at least not ccording to wikipedia). I never said, BTW that Queens Blade was a childrens game. Queens Gate didn't look nearly so racy from the pics I saw in the DB -- which was why brought them up as being from a different series.

How many people would categorize the tv show "Angel" in the same category as "Buffy"?


kayurachan

Retired Moderator

kayurachan

Mado&Fen are my Gods.

I see your problem is QB's gallery is *too*big.
Then just browse Vocaloid, Touhou, Bleach, Naruto, Evangelion... should we "categorize" them in other ways? How could it be possible?
All other QB's expansion games are related to the original and therefore they're linked and tagged together. Just like we do for Gundams or other series with multiple spin-offs. Nothing else to say.
MT's download/upload speed is another problem and should be handled by our Admins. I'll forward your complain to them.

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!Death to J-Rock scans! >.<
What is Kayurachan doing? Just see it on my userpage :3
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Astara

Astara

Scanner, Artistic

Quote by kayurachanI see your problem is QB's gallery is *too*big.
Then just browse Vocaloid, Touhou, Bleach, Naruto, Evangelion... should we "categorize" them in other ways? How could it be possible?

Use common practice in organizing.

The purpose of tagging / sorting is to be able to find things more easily. If categories get too large, they they become cumbersome and not easy to use. Conversely if you start out with many tiny sub-categories that only have a few objects in them, that also impedes find the information or object you want.

So in this case, too many objects in one basket...well how is basket arranged...oh, it's already the case that it combines multiple smaller baskets. Well lets break apart as many as needed along some logical lines for the 'object family' so we can again find things more easily.

You could break things down by sub-series, in this case -- especially where the sub-items have different characters.

If someone is looking for a particular character or characters from a series, they could then go there and goto the subseries, and more easily find them. The same could be done for any other Evangelion could be broken down into indy-art/official art, "2.0 art", etc. Code Geass could be broken down between the two seasons -- there's probably enough -- that and official (by clamp?) and non-official. Any of these ways would reduce the overall size of each
category and make finding anything much more simple.

You seem to think it's completely impossible...but there are tons of books on organizing. IF you need me to recommend one for you, I could probably find one on amazon, or maybe off one of my book shelves...(not that I follow them religiously, but I have read them and am familiar with the concepts and use them occasionally).

None of this is rocket science if you get down to it, I'm sure you could come up with the perfect categories to address the problem, if you put your mind to it! And don't think about it as, "well if we done one then everything has to be done NOW"....take it one step at a time...no need to rush everything...just aim at the areas where people are experience problems first.

In my case -- I've *only* watched the anime.

I don't know anything about a game. Since this is a *anime* wp board first, maybe the anime could be given its
own category and characters that are only seen in the games would go in the games character. If a character is in both, they could be listed in both, OR, more ideally, if the picture is FROM the anime -- the same style as the anime, then under the anime group, but if the pic is from how they look or are drawn in the game, then list them under the game category. I've seen some pics from the game since I started watching the anime (being in Japanese, it's slow slogging), and there are notable stylistic differences...

Make any sense, or are you feeling contrarian today? :-)

A*a

fireflywishes

Retired Moderator, Linguistics

fireflywishes

Calgon, take me away~!

Astara,

Why would we make the tags MORE complicated? We already have Queen's Gate as a subcategory of Queen's Blade (Because it IS related to the bigger franchise). Why do we need to separate it further into anime vs. game images? They're still of the same characters. If you're looking for a particular scan, just search by character. Additionally, why should we differentiate between stylistic differences? There are mangaka who will do tribute pieces to other series... should we make a separate category for those too?

Re: Code Geass-- Again, if they have the same characters, why should we have two different tags? then we'd have to create a second tag "Lelouch (Code Geass 2)" for each character. I would think that THAT would be more convoluted. And especially more difficult for scanners, who would have to consider which season their scan is from in order to determine which character tag to use.

Additionally, you can also search scans using MORE THAN ONE TAG to narrow your search. Say you want clean Queen's Blade scans... just search "Queen's Blade, -ecchi". We did notify members of this option in the MTM.

Honestly, what you're asking us to do is too much. You seem to think that we are being paid to Moderate on this site and that we have all the time in the world to make things perfect and to YOUR liking. We are just normal people with normal lives, who help out on the site out of the goodness of our hearts and love of anime/Japanese culture. There is no need to "talk down" to us or for snide remarks ("Make any sense, or are you feeling contrarian today?", use of the word "lazy" in other posts). You appear to have no respect for us since you continue to argue and complain after we've made our positions clear.

As the site continues to evolve, so will the tag system. If you were around a number of years ago, scans were only broken up by male, female, couple, and group scans. Be glad that you can at least search by series and character now.

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Astara

Astara

Scanner, Artistic

Quote: There is no need to "talk down" to us or for snide remarks ("Make any sense, or are you feeling contrarian today?", use of the word "lazy" in other posts). You appear to have no respect for us since you continue to argue and complain after we've made our positions clear.


I don't have any innate disrespect for anyone. I try to communicate to them in the style they use with me. It's called mirroring. It's not conscious -- it's purely unconscious with me. If someone treats me nicely you'll see me bend over backwards to do the same to them. If someone talks down to me, I can't help but respond in kind. look at the notes i was replying to...which started:

Quote:
"Thanx God regular member can't delete tags or this would be a BIG big mess...
I'm taking personally care of Queen's Blade (and other child games) tags so please refer to me for tagging this game, since you don't clearly know it.

Can't imagine why someone reading that might have felt talked down to, can you?
I don't start, but I'm not a doormat. Just like interaction with Madawhateverznameis, she was polite at first and I was bending over backward to please, then an artisitic differnce on one picture and it was all doodoo after that. But before that she was surprised at how easy I was to deal with -- because she was polite/nice to me.

I'm not sure that what I'm asking for is that complex -- or at least I don't see why.
Since you can have multiple tags in the database on an item, why not allow a tag for art that is from the anime that wouldn't be applied to art purely from the game? It's a label. The existing tags can stay, but images I added that were from the anime could have the anime tag on them and if I or anyone else got industrious, they could add tags to other art that's from the anime, but only if they were feeling extra industrious.

So what's so complicated about that? That's what I tried to do, only to have the tag
aliased to 'game' -- which makes the whole thing pointless. Again, the issue of 'respect' -- I try to create new information to allow more precise searching, and someone deletes it without a word -- is that respectful? How does adding where the art comes from make it harder for someone to find it? Or is my explanation clearing anything up (or are we still talking different dialects of a common language?)?

MapleRose

Retired Moderator

MapleRose

likes rainbows :D

Like firefly said, just search by the characters if the series has too many scans. Separating say, manga images from anime images, would mean you need to search twice for all images of a certain character. Or you'd need a complex tagging tree to parent stuff under each other, which would make it needlessly complicated.

If you want to search for say, Vocaloid scans done by redjuice, just search multiple tags, like "redjuice vocaloid"

Astara

Astara

Scanner, Artistic

Why not the ability to search either way?

What I suggest wouldn't preclude searching by name -- if you searched by name you'd get them from both categories (manga+anime), but if you want just images from the anime, how do you do it? If you want them from one, you'd have to select name and category keywords. "mary manga". If you only have two categories, then
"mary" = "mary manga OR anime". I wanted a way to differentiate images from the series in this case vs those from the game. I don't see the reason for all the griefing I'm being dealt. It's not that big a deal for there to be this level of resistance and antagonism, so I don't get it?

kayurachan

Retired Moderator

kayurachan

Mado&Fen are my Gods.

Separating galleries into anime vs manga (or game, or whatever you like) has already been discussed with our admins and rejected.
It would require a hard and time consuming work. Since there's no script or such "trick", we should tag all 300.000+ gallery items manually. And that would be in charge of our staff since members could make mistakes and create further mess in our galleries. Our staff has lives outside MT so there's no way we could use that system.
Please remember browsing MT before the tagging system was even harder, since you could just do it with series or mangaka/studio. Tag system is a great progress... but it has rules and you must follow them in order for it to be working nicely.
I've been rude with you at the beginning because I didn't like your attitude of PMing a member telling him/her to change QB tagging on his/her scans. That member just followed nicely our rules. You could just try with your idea with this thread FIRST.
And since you don't get what "bad tagging" is, you got answers from a lot of people in the staff here. You should know why now.

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!Death to J-Rock scans! >.<
What is Kayurachan doing? Just see it on my userpage :3
Sheq says: XD one sec, eating an egg XP

Morrow

Scanner

Morrow

...is in stealth mode.

Just my two cents:
What I noticed is that, when I tag a character who appears in Queens Gate, it automatically adds the Queens Gate tag. For example, I tagged an old Dead or Alive scan with "Kasumi", and Queens Gate was added too. I just deleted it, since the image itself did not belong into the Queens* series.
The problem is, if not everyone does that, the Queens* category will be full of images that, while showing a character that appears in it, actually don't belong there.

kayurachan

Retired Moderator

kayurachan

Mado&Fen are my Gods.

@hitodama: thanx for reminding me, there's a way to skip that out so that a character won't be added to multiple series/games/etc. I'll ask Sheqel to fix it :3
But please let's not go off-topic, ok? Issues on tags can be directed here: Tag Admin Thread.

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!Death to J-Rock scans! >.<
What is Kayurachan doing? Just see it on my userpage :3
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Astara

Astara

Scanner, Artistic

Quote by kayurachan@hitodama: thanx for reminding me, there's a way to skip that out so that a character won't be added to multiple series/games/etc. I'll ask Sheqel to fix it :3
But please let's not go off-topic, ok? Issues on tags can be directed here: Tag Admin Thread.


I don't think this is off-topic at all -- it could be one reason for the problem, why there are many images that get multiple tags that may not apply?

I don't know about the instance the person was referring to, or if it should have applied, but it sounded like they were surprised that it had been automatically added and that maybe it was not appropriate.

If that's the case, then what I've been complaining about is a bug and I've been getting harassed for reporting the symptoms of the bug. (And maybe the admin in charge of that section is merely defending the status quo and wasn't aware of the bug, until now?, but why deflect the comment as not relevant to this thread when it might be a contributing factor to the problem?)

Also, this whole topic is about tag confusion between "Queen's Gate" and "Queen's Blade", so it _seems_ the comment may have some direct bearing on this problem.


merged: 04-26-2010 ~ 03:31am

Quote by fireflywishesAstara,

Honestly, what you're asking us to do is too much. You seem to think that we are being paid to Moderate on this site and that we have all the time in the world to make things perfect and to YOUR liking. We are just normal people with normal lives, who help out on the site out of the goodness of our hearts and love of anime/Japanese culture.

It's not that they need to be perfect to my liking, but that run into problems --- but to add insult to injury (hyperbole), I get slammed for any attempts to fix the problem:

Quote by kayurachanThe tags you created for the QB gallery just don't make ANY sense.
First warning for bad tagging. Any more and you'll be restricted.
If you don't like our tagging system then just look for another anime community that meets your standards.


I asked exactly which tags on which images were a problem, and she gave no response.

I mentioned the irony of the situation, of her threatening to restrict me from tagging my images-- as she was the one who wanted me to tag them in the first place. I DID try to please, and then get this. Ya wonder why I might be a teensy eensy bit miffed?

So honestly? What might be great for you to do? Is to not do so much and mangle my tags -- you claim I'm asking you to do too much, it's what I'm asking you not to do -- like mangle my tags and throw restriction notes at me -- for trying to do what you say is to much for you to do (the more specific category tagging on my images) -- it's not that I was asking you to do it for me, but to let me do it for my images -- and hopefully allow it for future images and stop merging my tags for the series into aliases for the game.

Maybe you weren't aware of the the full situation?
Astara


merged: 04-26-2010 ~ 03:50am
------------------

Quote by kayurachanSeparating galleries into anime vs manga (or game, or whatever you like) has already been discussed with our admins and rejected.
It would require a hard and time consuming work. Since there's no script or such "trick", we should tag all 300.000+ gallery items manually. And that would be in charge of our staff since members could make mistakes and create further mess in our galleries.


Just because it might not have been a good idea in the past, doesn't mean it might not be now (or in the future). The landscape is constantly changing. It seems that that amount of items in an anime DB will constantly be increasing going forward.

It will be the case that eventually categories will become unweildy -- too large to be useful to narrow down to find an image.

Now this is also, partly in light of bandwidth and server constraints. If my line speed to static.minitokyo.com wasn't as low as 5-10KB/s on a slow hour, then that would help -- but congestion is what is, for now -- whether there, here or in the middle.

Meanwhile, I have the same problems in my file system. I sometimes need to find new ways to break apart existing categories so I can still find things.

And while it seems impossible to go back and deal with past images -- as I tried to say before -- it doesn't have to be done now or at any point -- but there's no reason to stop the opening of the category specific labels for future inclusion -- which is what is happening. I've not pushed for anyone to go through and relabel everything from the past -- though double-labeling everything in queen's gate with queens blade seems consfusing, at least I'm now aware of a way of working around that -- the
new query syntax is very helpful in that regard (aka queen's blade -queen's gate).

As for the idea of staff being overworked, maybe more members need to be made staff. Either ask for volunteers who are willing to take a 'light touch approach' or volunteer them, but at the least stop giving demerits to people who are trying to help the system and telling them they make no sense (especially when you can't give examples).

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