Scan Providers vs Scan Finders

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Wraith

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Wraith

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Couldn't think up a better name ... sorry.

This has been bothering me for quite some time. I really don't know if any other scanner feels the same as I do when it comes to buying and scanning art books. It comes down to this, when I get my art books, I scan some images out of them, sometimes destroying the book in the process, but that's ok, for the most part. Normally I can live with that, the books I don't want to ruin I don't scan from them. Anyway, I do some post processing, usually de-screening and filtering etc. etc. and post the image on MT and other places. So I am all happy with my accomplishment, get some praise for my efforts (sometimes) and sooner or later a scan finder comes along with a bigger (I'll use that term loosely) but not necessarily better (in my opinion, usually no processing at all) scan that they have found and mine gets replaced. I normally don't care if the scan is actually better than mine.

So, should I continue to scan my art books when it takes very little to replace them? Is size all that matters to MT? When does quality come into play if at all? (not saying mine are any good just the ones that have been replacing mine lately are terrible. Again my opinion) Do other scanners feel the same as I do? Do you feel like you are wasting your time and money? I could certainly start making horribly large scans but they would be exactly that. Horrible.

It will be interesting to see the opinions of scanners and scan finders, plus MT staff.

But the question still remains, should I continue to scan my art books?

MadoshiKurefu

Retired Moderator, Scanner

MadoshiKurefu

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I like your good quality scans and yes we replace the smaller ones with bigger scans. Your scans are smoothed, I guess with blurrig or similar effects. Other scanners use little blurring effects and some doesn't use any effects at all. So of course your scan will look better compared to a very big scan without any filters or a different scanning option. But that doesn't mean that the other scan is low quality. If it has no jpeg artifacts and if it is saved in a big size it's good enough. It just looks different from yours. If you however resize that new scan to a smaller version it does look smooth enough.
As a scanner I know how much time and money you waste for artbooks but the source doesn't matter. I also delete my own self scanned images if someone submits a bigger size or a more complete version but I still scan new stuff. And like you, I scan some images smaller because I think it doesn't look that good in a very big size if the original print isn't good enough. But I've also learned while choosing one scan over another that scan quality can be subjective. I've met a member who insisted that a overfiltered scan were all the details were lost would look better than a normally scanned image. Of course I disagreed and didn't choose those overfiltered scans for the gallery. But like I said if the new scan is bigger, has no jpeg artifacts and didn't lose details it will replace the smaller scan. In the end it is your choice to scan or not to scan. :)

Roses are red / Dean’s blood too / On his knees begging / “Please, this isn’t you” (SUPERNATURAL)

Wraith

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Wraith

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I figured that's how it was. But I did have a scan replace by another that was only 100x76 dpi bigger. Where's the justification in that? I am just trying to figure out what guide lines or methods are used to determine what scans are acceptable. In an unprocessed scan how do you determine if that image has artifacts in the moire pattern? Unless it is plainly obvious I never see it. I guess it's the extra effort I put into the scans that would be in question here. I de-screen using my scanner to remove as much moire pattern as possible, then I use Noise Ninja to remove the rest. Photoshop is used to do slight surface blur and sharpening then I do dust removal and sometimes touch ups with clone stamp. So the time I spend on a scan seems like a waste of effort if the scan that replaces it is just a scan. I feel bad for those that do more than me. I guess a good recommendation would be not to do any post processing? I can see people starting to scan at 1200dpi because it can be resized to 600dpi and it will look good but they will have posted the larger scan. Not that that'll be a good idea because the size in mb will be large.

Any scan that is resized smaller will look better. I've scanned images at 1200dpi before and scaled them down to 600dpi and 300dpi. They look great. But if I scan the same image at 600 or 300dpi it looks the same. So larger dosen't mean better, it's just bigger. I haven't been able to de-screen a 1200dpi image yet that looked good at 1200dpi. The only way scans can be different is if the source is different. An example would be a half page image as compared to a full page. The full page image will be larger if scanned at the same dpi. That much is obvious. Or if I don't debind and the other does. Those will be different, more complete as you say. So lets say I take my 600dpi image, do my 'fixes' and resize 25% smaller, and submit it. Some one else comes along with the same 600dpi scan not resized, no fixes and submits it, from the same source, will the smaller scan be replaced even though in the beginning it was the same size? Or comparably close lets say in size. Just asking because some of my scans have been resized smaller from 600dpi. I am just trying to understand here. It just seems sometimes what I thought was how things were done seem to change from time to time.

Thanks for the reply Madoshikurefu (that's a mouthful)

MadoshiKurefu

Retired Moderator, Scanner

MadoshiKurefu

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Quote by WraithSo lets say I take my 600dpi image, do my 'fixes' and resize 25% smaller, and submit it. Some one else comes along with the same 600dpi scan not resized, no fixes and submits it, from the same source, will the smaller scan be replaced even though in the beginning it was the same size?


Yes, the smaller scan will be replaced with the bigger in almost all cases. Some exceptions would be that the uncleaned scan has too much dirt or creases or something like that.
I agree with you that larger doesn't mean better quality but actually we must have a guideline that is useable for us. Sometimes it's really hard to choose one scan over another and sometimes I even need a second opinion. If we would start to judge more patterns and every dust particle and color correction it would complicate things too much. If it is from the same source and a member does some cleaning the cleaned version will not stay unless for example you can see some effort in the cleaning. Not just removing some dust. If you remove a page fold, repaint missing parts in a good way your version will stay. Otherwise members would take scans with moire patterns and would do some filtering and resubmit the same scan again. Although we don't keep such a easy cleaned or filtered scan some members still try it to fill their own gallery. So if you ask me you should do scan cleaning but actually you don't have to do as much as you do. Of course you can do it but the extra work you do to make the scan look perfect won't be considered for choosing one scan over another. Of course we delete a scan that is too dirty but those are the ones you don't even notice if we are quick with gallery checking.
And about your last sentence that sometimes things change: Just take the ecchi scans as an example. The previous scan mods deleted even scans with panty shots but then with a new mod things changed. It is the same with scans. With new staff members we get new input and new ideas so some rules (unofficial or official) change from time to time.

Roses are red / Dean’s blood too / On his knees begging / “Please, this isn’t you” (SUPERNATURAL)

Fenafir

Moderator, Scanner

Fenafir

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Wraith, we appreciate all the wonderful scans that you share with us in the minitokyo community and I know it can be quite disheartening to see all the hard work you put into scanning your scans get replaced by something not up to par in your standards. Adding on to what Mado said I hope I can give you some more insight in what we look for.

We keep the more complete version of a scan hence I think this was one of your main concern?

Quote by WraithI figured that's how it was. But I did have a scan replace by another that was only 100x76 dpi bigger. Where's the justification in that? I am just trying to figure out what guide lines or methods are used to determine what scans are acceptable.

I think I know what scan you were talking about and the reason it was deleted was because at the bottom of the scan there were more parts of her shoe or leg shown in the other scan than in your scan. My apologies for not making it clearer for you in the deletion PM. I admit the "new" scan that replaced yours isn't that great but we tend to keep scans that show the more complete version of a character(s) like extra hair, body parts and clothing extensions despite the size difference. Now if you didn't have that missing part on the character then of course yours would have stayed. However, even if his version was smaller than yours, yours will still be deleted none the less because the character was incomplete. We do reject larger scans if character(s) body parts are cut off than in the smaller scan. We also keep the same scan twice if both have certain differences or extensions that is present in the other scan but not the other.

You are welcome to report a reason why you think a scan should be kept or deleted. We will consider it and might help us in our judging.

I've made myself a little guideline to help me in my judging, maybe it would help you in some way.

If you have a larger scan make sure its follows one or more of these reasons:
1. Significantly larger BUT not heavily littered with scanning artifacts or is dirty.
2. Not extremely over-filtered that your will eyes hurt and that most details are not lost or is fuzzy. I will delete large scans if I don't see the nice details I would see in the smaller version.
3. Subject or character(s) does not have any parts of them missing or cut off compared to the smaller one. Background does not count unless otherwise. However, the extra extension must be significantly large. Just a tiny extra hair or leg length does not usually count and will get deleted. #3 is probably the main reason for many deletions we make.
4. We accept large scans with creases over smaller scans with no creases as long they follow all the above rules AND that it does not have a huge chunk missing in its picture or does not have binding discoloration and vice versa.

I hope these tips can give you an idea whether or not its worth your time and effort to scan any of your artbooks or magazines.

Wraith

Scanner

Wraith

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Quote by MadoshiKurefuIf we would start to judge more patterns and every dust particle and color correction it would complicate things too much.

Yes it would and there is at least one site I know of that does do that. Or at least it seems like it.

Quote: If it is from the same source and a member does some cleaning the cleaned version will not stay unless for example you can see some effort in the cleaning. Not just removing some dust. If you remove a page fold, repaint missing parts in a good way your version will stay.

So cleaned versions don't stay, they get replaced. Gotcha.

Quote: Otherwise members would take scans with moire patterns and would do some filtering and resubmit the same scan again. Although we don't keep such a easy cleaned or filtered scan some members still try it to fill their own gallery.

I had thought of that and that's one of the reasons I decided to try cleaning my own scans.

Quote by FenafirWe keep the more complete version of a scan hence I think this was one of your main concern?

Actually no, it was more of a scan that wasn't cleaned or fixed in any way replacing one that was. I see what you meant by that other scan. I never noticed for all I looked at that scan. I normally look to see if there is more to the other scan than mine.

Thank you for your insight Fenafir and MadoshiKurefu. Hopefully this little discussion will help others or give them a chuckle. But I do think I realize my problem now. And that's trying to please too many sites. I think I will just stick to one or two sites and that'll be it. Trying to make one scan that pleases everyone is not realistic.

popoluska

Scanner

popoluska

Artbook addict!

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Oh I jump in here aswell since Iam also one of the slowly going to die spiecies call'd selfscanner. So far Iam pleased with the work the admins in the gallery section do. I think i didnt got any of my selfscanned scans removed. My guideline is simple. if i see s scaned with the title "self scanned" Iam not gonna reupload it and even if I could deliver a slightly better quality. I have respect for the scanner that as said above in many cases destroying or damaging the book along with the scanning process and therefore I dont want to get his "effort" being removed or replaced. Since I very good know what a pain in t he ass is the whole process and there are scans iam "photoshoping" with for hours. In this case it should be always like selfscanned > Not my scan. ofc only in the case is the selfscanned scan has better quality or higher resolution.

Minitokyo's selfscanner addict ! ^_^

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