Warning: Undefined array key "HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE" in /var/www/minitokyo/www/includes/common.inc.php on line 360 Rationality isn't always a good thing - Minitokyo

Rationality isn't always a good thing

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Darthas

Retired Moderator

Darthas

レキシコン

Time to destroy the lives of everyone that ever agreed with me.

Definition of Rationality -> A process of decision making to characterize belief of action to be a norm concept of reasoning.
In other words, things that make sense to more than 3 people who aren't a group of friends in any part of thinking.

Has anyone ever noticed that being rational is another way mankind coins a term to control people? By accepting the fact that you are rational, you are actually just following a conveyer belt of standard choice just because everyone else does the same thing. That at the end of it, in reality, you aren't really being rational.

I'll start with a description, the whole point of rationality and choice. The whole point of the word rational was to somehow understand how people made choices and decisions in their lives with circumstances they were in or were given WITHOUT the word rational being used when things were being told to them. Rationality was not so much something used to govern your way of thinking.. but more of a term used to label you as being rational because of the answers you gave. In this sense, lately people have been doing things because they believed it was rational.. where did this belief come from? Norm of choice. Just because half the world does it.. it somehow appears as the rational thing to do.. therefore you did it. This is the problem, and once again mankind has messed up another term just like they messed up the term 'Stupidity'.
With this situation being given, people believe that this 'rationality' is good, therefore they do it. Society is not being rational but rather being shown how to behave by these standard.. common choices.

Here's an example of people failing an aspect of being rational.
Let's say you're at your best friends wedding. You naturally prefer a cup of orange juice to rose syrup, and prefer rose syrup to apple juice (because apple juice sucks (emphasis)). There's a cup of orange juice and apple juice on the table, and your sisters kid loves orange juice.. but can drink apple juice just the same.
Now most reasonable people would take the orange juice instead of the apple juice, it is 'rational' that you take things that you prefer when offered to you. However, politeness requires you to take the apple juice instead for the sake of your sisters kid. So you take the apple juice and probably end up never drinking it. Is this irrational? Because of being polite.. most people would tell you that you aren't.

So what does this really mean? Pretty much that the circumstance changed the reason why you did something. You aren't taking the orange juice, not only because you're being polite, but because if you took the orange juice from the kid.. it says something about you and the kind of person you are. How can you know something so well and disregard it.. right? Reflects badly on you.
In this sense, you have been irrational by not taking something that you like and instead lived with something you didn't like, but because of the situation you were in, you have been rational in what you did. It was rational of you to put aside your own likes for a kid 30 years younger than you, and it also says good things about the kind of person you are (at least.. -you- think it does, to most people that's common courtesy).

Because of simple things like politeness, independence and other personality or societal factors, rationality of choice does not really apply to anything. If you remove politeness from the given example, you would have done what you wanted to do. In essence, everything in the world doesn't matter and only doing what you like is what is rational. But because of that 1 factor, your preference no longer applies, because it does not exist any more now that you have politeness in the equation. Therefore 'rationality of choice' can not be applied by relating what we would initially do to what we do subsequently.

So given this overview, what does anyone conclude from this? This is surely not the act of a rational man, because a rational man will do what he thinks is 'rational' to him without regard from other factors. Basically this is not how rationality is judged by people who view rationality axioms, but instead becomes more of a problem with it being rational in sense of conformity. We think it's right because it is what the majority does. If the majority says being polite is taking only what you want, then doing what you did in the example is reversed, and you were not being polite at all. Where is this 'rationality' that people talk about then?
I believe this whole rationality thing is used to predict how people behave, knowing he's going to do it for the sake of being polite or independent. So once again the definitions have been.. destroyed. An interesting note is that rationality itself is also not defined by being polite or anything of the sort either.

So once again it's a problem with society having extremely gimped standards on what exactly being rational is.. just like how there are extremely gimped standards on what being stupid means.

[20:54] Lexicon: I may be 3rd place in the popularity poll but at NASA, the # order is 3>2>1.
[20:56] DXBlair: its a placement poll..not a countdown idiot
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UsagixKitsune

UsagixKitsune

nsɐƃıxʞıʇsnuǝ

Surly one does what's best for oneself in these situations. In your example, being perceived as considerate by others is more important than preference in beverage. It's only coincidence that some of these choices are dictated by what others would do.

In the case of a trick question like 1+1*0=? most people will answer 0 but does that make it the rational choice?

Darthas

Retired Moderator

Darthas

レキシコン

You're right, I should clarify. I wrote that example to show that external factors affected rationality, it's not a coincidence because external factors are considered in everything you do. There's never not an external factor when you do something.Technicalities are never used to define anything because they only work with the basis to derive true meaning, because these coincidences are ad hoc. Furthermore, you're right in the sense that this example is coincidence, whereas objectively defined characteristics do not show any form of meaning or context of choice and that this factor of politeness is static and never always there.

However.. definitions only really apply strictly to a single instant in time with everything considered to be unchanged. But in this sense (and most), you have a change in both meaning and knowledge of rationality because of circumstance. You are no longer able to choose between 2 options that are unchanged and consistent, because they are not there. By that logic, there is no transitivity basis for claiming it is a norm for rationality, or the fact that independence and/or politeness have any such basis as well.

So for once it isn't a people problem, but more a problem on what our standards are.

[20:54] Lexicon: I may be 3rd place in the popularity poll but at NASA, the # order is 3>2>1.
[20:56] DXBlair: its a placement poll..not a countdown idiot
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angelxxuan

angelxxuan

ぬいぐるみ !

yeah and yet they unleash their demon side online, another showing of rational perhaps, or because they are too afraid to vent this thought process outside of the net. using the net as a poor excuse to be a jerk is possibly another labeling of rational thinking. I prefer to be the opposite, if people can't handle me, then walk away. I prefer to do things that I prefer, if I want that orange juice I'm going to take it. and then wonder why the heck am I even at a boring wedding. I don't even go to funerals because they're so boring ! I am me, I broke the record and mold long ago and continue to do so, is this rational thinking? who knows, I just don't care. if people see my demon side, then they should realize they've done something to tick me off, I don't bottle it in and be all lovey dovey about it, I have seen where that gets me and I've seen the true nature of the human psyche. if that is rational, give me gaming and movies anytime and keep the human population away from me.

BuBbLeS!


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Darthas

Retired Moderator

Darthas

レキシコン

Quote by angelxxuan yeah and yet they unleash their demon side online, another showing of rational perhaps, or because they are too afraid to vent this thought process outside of the net. using the net as a poor excuse to be a jerk is possibly another labeling of rational thinking. I prefer to be the opposite, if people can't handle me, then walk away. I prefer to do things that I prefer, if I want that orange juice I'm going to take it. and then wonder why the heck am I even at a boring wedding. I don't even go to funerals because they're so boring ! I am me, I broke the record and mold long ago and continue to do so, is this rational thinking? who knows, I just don't care. if people see my demon side, then they should realize they've done something to tick me off, I don't bottle it in and be all lovey dovey about it, I have seen where that gets me and I've seen the true nature of the human psyche. if that is rational, give me gaming and movies anytime and keep the human population away from me.


My dear, I don't get what this means.. I know you hate people but the OP is regarding something else entirely.

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I can make a 'why people fail' thread for you next week though :D

[20:54] Lexicon: I may be 3rd place in the popularity poll but at NASA, the # order is 3>2>1.
[20:56] DXBlair: its a placement poll..not a countdown idiot
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angelxxuan

angelxxuan

ぬいぐるみ !

you do know you are the op right? making a point, rationalizing how things is: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rationalize or possibly this http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rational when one cannot do either then they approach things in a different light, when people know what they are doing and are thus, faced with the notion to think outside the box because this is how they see rational is, then this is what it becomes. without fail people are going to see rational as this or that, depending on how they see it in society used. like a child mimicking what they see, they know no better. we can either wonder into that path and be as we should, or be as we shouldn't. this is how things are, we either see it as an illusion or we see it as it is. and no, I do not hate people they are my entertainment, go play in the crowded streets sometime to see this. there's rational methods and then there are methods where people don't know any better and are going to do things they think is rational, when in fact, it is not, yet in their eyes/mind it is rational.

BuBbLeS!


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Rational decision: a decision made by putting some thought into things
Irrational decision: a decision made out of
- Love
- Anger
-Fear
- Insanity
- Etc.
that does not involve a thought process.

Rational decisions often end up working; irrational ones, on the other hand, usually fail.
However, we can't judge someone else's decisions as rational or irrational because they may have reasons for doing things that we don't see, or they may have made an irrational choice at a very appropriate time. And we most likely won't admit that we were being irrational outselves, so rationality and irrationality can seem indistinguishable at times.
Also, depending on personal values and your idea of personal gain, specific actions may have different rationality levels for different people.

Legionary

Legionary

Ramen Loving

I think if a person can explain his reasoning for doing something in which his reasoning includes why his particular choice had more pros than cons, it was a rational choice. The demands of society play a role in what we think is 'rational' because we want to live in that society. To just ignore society based on the 'rationality' of meeting every preference and appeasing every need regardless of consequences, but while also wanting to actually function in that society, deson't seem rational at all.

With the orange juice/apple juice fiasco, lol, the person just realized that his immediate pleasure of drinking the juice was not worth the trouble or possible guilt of taking the drink from a child, especially given the circumstances of it being his sister's kid.
I suppose of course, the opposite might be true. The guy could just be damn thirsty and say, the heck with it, and just drink the orange juice. He might be 'scolded' for it, but to him, it was worth it. It just depends on the situation and there's always different factors to consider and social norms are one of those factors. :P

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"I wish the real world would just stop hassling me" - MB20

awkwardusername

awkwardusername

(」・ω・)」うー!

Quote by DarthasHas anyone ever noticed that being rational is another way mankind coins a term to control people? By accepting the fact that you are rational, you are actually just following a conveyer belt of standard choice just because everyone else does the same thing. That at the end of it, in reality, you aren't really being rational.

Haha. Well said. Very well said. Actually, there is this fact that in doing arguments is doing persuasion. It's just practically having more people to like your idea in saying what is pragmatically reasonable for the most of them.

--

I have this philosophy. I call it the egotistic existence philosophy. The fundamental beliefs are as follows:

> What the self know (seen, heard, etc.), is the only ones that exist. Otherwise, non-existent. In the context of knowing, that is, everything that has been defined is regarded as known. I cannot abstract this more because I believe my explanation is already atomic.
> A truth is formed by determining the existence with context to what the self knows. That is, if I could make a logical conclusion with the propositions from the existent.

Now, why did I say that? Think of this. From the start, everything has been laid upon us. The present world has defined the basic fundamentals of living, as to which is fundamentally right, and which is fundamentally wrong. That comes to the argument that, which is fundamentally right, or fundamentally wrong? Nothing. As per se, they are fundamental. Postulates if we define it mathematically. If we go against them, we are called as nonconformists. Unorthodox. Rebels in layman.

Now, we start to think; if what is fundamentally right, is fundamentally wrong, and vice versa. So we deduce arguments, in order to find truth. But that begs the question; if ever we conclude to a truth, will it be fundamental?

e.g. An animal is on a box. Inside the box is a cat. Therefore, the animal is a cat.

A simple categorical proposition. The conclusion is valid, but is it the truth? What if, the animal is not really a cat? Or, the cat is not inside the box? Or, the box doesn't exist at all. Absurd, yes, but do a valid conclusion make up a truth? No. A truth must be evident. It is a fact. Likewise, the earth revolves around the sun. But what if we never observed the stars? That is, we will hold on the truth that the sun, revolves around the earth, because of the reasoning that the sun rises and sets on the east and west respectively.

I now come back to my egoistic existence philosophy. What is existent to us, that is, fundamentally true, is on the context from what the self only know.

--

I believe I am rational. And that is a fundamental truth I hold. I actually don't care if being rational is good or not, because, we are still to define, what is actually good, and what is not. Goodness, is never fundamental and so is evil. They cannot be defined in logic after all.

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Actually, call me a douche. There is this contradiction: I hold logic, while I am existent as a human. Being human is actually being or having the sense to become illogical. This is actually funny. Haha. Make me a god then. XD

Spoiler (show)

those who could count how many times i have use the word 'fundamental' will be given a great good pat on the back by, yours truly, awkwardusername

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Then what role am I to play in this farce? Should I be the slave? The villager? The knight? The protagonist? No, I am them all! A hero who’s role is to consume everything in sight, dancing while tearing the theater apart. A drama. A drama whose audience is the drama itself.

Well i never thought about it that way but what your doing isn't 'rationality' and thinking that the meaning of 'rationality' was gimped by society isn't that 'rationality'. I mean if ever one agrees with you then you yourself are being 'rational'

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sharonz

小姐

I can not agree more with you! Rationality isn't always a good thing to some degree!

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