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A question in regards to Loli-con Material and Minitokyo

Should Loli-con material be allowed on Minitokyo?

We have an ecchi filter, if you don't like it turn it on!
10 votes
I want to browse Minitokyo without underage content.
11 votes
We should accept certain material within reason.
7 votes

Only members can vote.

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CyanideBlizzard

Retired Moderator

CyanideBlizzard

Margarita Time!

I'm creating this thread because it seems that the Complaint section has largely turned into a collection of people agreeing with Myri-chan's initial post. Since the response has been getting larger, a separate thread will be better suited to address the issue. This way, people can feel free to express their thoughts on the matter while still keeping that section open to other complaints.

As a former staff member, one thing we have always tried to inform the community is that if there is something you do not like, voice your opinion. This is actually an issue that came up with the staff several years ago, and the verdict was ruled since there was no complaints from the members the content would be up to the scan staff to decide what is acceptable and what isn't.

If you have any thoughts on either direction of the matter, please post in here.

Quote by myri-chanI love a lot Minitokyo. i never find a place like this before. i feel so welcome and comfortable here. Home sweet Home :) I like the atmosophere , such lovely people! the Mods and the Admin are so friendly and humble. i feel like staying with family :)

I have only one complaint there are a lots scans of Little Girls Ecchi ...Lolicon... it's really disturbing !

just an examples ....... i dislike "Only" these types of hentai wich depicts "fantasy" children (lolicon/shotacon/babykon)

Kore wa Zombie Desu ka?#647768


Tsubame Nozomi#648016

( not a personal attack)

I do love Ecchi with Sexy Women, Pretty Young Ladies (Lolitas) , but Not Children!

I know a lot people will hate me after reading this ...

No more creepy scans!

Thank you .

Feel free to discuss this matter however you see fit, but please be respectful of every opinion and every individual.

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akiranyo

akiranyo

Astraea Kisaragi

First we are going to dump ecchi tag on every woman with a rack and now we are throwing loli on every girl whos small and flat. Did somebody got until the basic conslusion that we are talking about fictive animated characters? Believe me, real pedophiles don't know what anime actually is.
I will be blunt, MT was fine as it was for a whole decade. I could understood the ecchi strikedown, losing revenue, means losing being a free site. I got over with.
But now somebody tries to make a mountain from a molehill. A site which gives access to art from the latest anime shows and artbooks of all sorts, will always hold some spicy material. With current popularity of fanservice in anime you simply cannot be 100% family friendly. Not even 50%. Some may look underage and some will be underage. We didn't allow hardcore material anyways and sometimes even scans on the edge are filtered out, our scan mods do a great job and also our regular scanners already know what they can and cannot submit.
Mass-deleting material will lead to loss of many great art pieces and also to loss of members which view such things as normal.
If somebody has sexual-related side thoughts by looking at such a picture, the problem lies in the person and not in the picture itself. He should see a specialist. Nuff said.
So, if you find those offensive, turn your ecchi filter on and call it a day. Out there you have anime galleries with the craziest hentai stuff and they don't even require registration to view everything just as it is.

Since I write satires, my whole life is one huge inspiration. (Horatius)
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well Cy Ninja is right about the fact that we should have a democratic debate on the matter .......feel free to expose your opinion.


first of all i want to clarify some points about my position........

i like ecchi ......i like hentai......i have nothing against sub-categories like yuri or yaoi or futanari .....as long they 're not showing pre-pubescent characters........

let me first expose my perception on lolicon/shotacon/babykon ..........


these scans are depicting "stylized" children .....

yes these drawn children are just anime characters......

so we should let people fantasize about anime children.......

so a lolicon/shotacon/babykon must be pemitted in the name of "freedom"..........


let me ask you another question........if these kind of pictures showing naked "anime" children in a suggestive pose are tolerated and get popular do you think really it's harmless ?.....


do you really believe that they are not subconsciously promoting sexual desires towards children ?............


Valuna

Retired Moderator

Valuna

Naughty Artist

The answer to your questions:

1. It is the exact reason why Japan's birthrate is in decline. In fact, it is lower than the deathrate. So yes, they do get satisfaction from whatever crazy fantasy they might have and not want any of it in real life, regardless of it being legal or not.

2. It is harmless as they are put in the Ecchi Gallery. For purely PG-13, we have an Ecchi Filter to avoid harmful exploits. It is entirely up to the person him/herself and we don't plan on playing parental control.

3. No, it does not. Better yet, they lessen the sexual desires towards children. That is the line between fiction and reality. These things feed their desires so there is no longer need for the actual ones. Of course, there are always exceptions, but that is not our responsibility. In other words, we have porn for a reason. Childpornography is illegal, so people with interests are better off moving entirely to fictional characters, rather than the real deal as that is legal. You can't just tell them not to, to each his/her own desires and fantasies of course.

These beautiful, fragile days are reborn, unfaded
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well sincerly valuna my dear i dont think that lolicon fans content theirselves in fantasizing for all the rest of their lives.......a lifetime is a quite long...... period......

i think on the contrary that we all here have responsibility ......doing nothing means that we are all "guilty" of encouraging and promoting pedophilia...

CyanideBlizzard

Retired Moderator

CyanideBlizzard

Margarita Time!

Quote by Minitokyo Terms of ServiceMinitokyo strives to be a family-friendly community. Minitokyo is concerned for the safety and well-being of all of its users, regardless of age, nationality, ethnicity, religion, or gender.

Honestly, I sincerely believe different strokes for different folks. I also well know the different between fiction and reality.

Yet, within all that I also do believe there needs to come a point when certain lines are drawn, regardless of filtered material. The biggest problem MInitokyo faces is putting a blanket over anything that's regarded as ecchi so either you're stuck browsing with content you may not exactly want to see, or else you completely turn it all off. That's not necessarily a good way to go about doing something.

Like for Myri's examples, I feel we're left with two different things. One one side, you have a girl who's actually in high school but has a childish-like body (Kore wa Zombie Desu) and you have another that is clearly a girl that hasn't even remotely started developing yet. While I can definitely see the former as being more acceptable, both in terms of age as well as a fetish itself, the latter comes across as a bit more eye-brow raising. Even more so given how revealing it is.

Given the fact that this was a topic matter that was heavily discussed between the staff several years prior, I think it's important to find a good solution to the problem.

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pandemonium91

Retired Moderator, Tagger

pandemonium91

*raises hand* I admit that I am squicked by seeing flat-chested, young anime girls and younger-looking anime boys in provocative poses. People may explain it as "you're wrong in the head" or "they're actually 3000 years old, so they're not kids" all they want. No. Looks like a kid = might as well be a kid, to someone who doesn't know the backstory (if any). And I certainly start off with that assumption when coming across the image linked in the almost-last line of this post.

I know the difference between lolita and lolicon. I think the person who said they didn't want "lolita" in the complaints thread and was subsequently pelted with definitions, actually meant "lolicon"; that was clearly understood. We're getting bogged down in select details instead of seeing the bigger picture.

The problem with a lolicon tag would be figuring out which images fit under it. Lolicon is, by definition, based on sexual content, and MT doesn't allow explicit sexual content. So Lolicon / Shotacon tags wouldn't be feasible. However, I do understand people's concerns. I saw no appeal in images with ultra huge boobs/over the top poses, but I just tuned them out eventually.

Quote by akiranyoIf somebody has sexual-related side thoughts by looking at such a picture, the problem lies in the person and not in the picture itself. He should see a specialist. Nuff said.

From Wikipedia: "Lolicon art often blends childlike characteristics with erotic undertones." Images drawn in that style are meant to elicit a type of response from certain types of people - arousal, disgust, disinterest etc. And while one can argue "artistic expression", you won't be able to convince me with that argument for images like this one.

I've been rethinking of implementing a "Hard Ecchi" tag. It would help differentiate better between the type of ecchi content.

P.S. there are different types of people with paedophilic tendencies out there, not just those who touch kids IRL; there are also those who don't act out on their urges. And I'll stop here because I don't know a lot about the topic and don't want to say something stupid.

If you can't handle me at my best, then you don't deserve me at my worst!

Nothing disturbs me.... but the sexualization of the infantile body...... even when the character is supposed to be "older" the most important thing is his childlike appearence wich clearly suggest infantile "sex-appeal"......hope we can solve this problem...

Valuna

Retired Moderator

Valuna

Naughty Artist

Eh..too much to reply on.

As Panda says, a "hard ecchi" tag might do the job.
But how do we define it? Do we basically seperate what wasnt ecchi before and now is and perhaps keep the regular panty shots?
I'm not sure if the Hard Ecchi tag would do, it is basically ecchi as an ecchi subcategory. I was more thinking of just being able to filter your Ecchi content out on what you want to see and what not as there are several fetishes around considering Ecchi and they all can pretty much be categorized. Surely, it would be a little bit more work to tag, but it would do good to unsee things you don't want to see at all in the Ecchi category.

These beautiful, fragile days are reborn, unfaded
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Falbare90

Falbare90

(=>益<=)

I say post a Wiki with the Character plus an age of the Character to explain if it's a child or not, more info the better, if we can allow that it would easily be done, so characters like Pan from GT age 10 won't be used as ecchi, but those that are above 16+ which I guess would be fair like Naruto. (Don't know his age in Shipodin) But as for those that have flat-chest just put down flat-chest to explain to the public.

(\ /)
( . .)
c()()

I agree that a filter such as "lolicon ecchi" may be a good solution and that it and "ecchi" could well be set to "filtered" as the default setting for new members. Also a new set of standards for what is allowed as "lolicon ecchi" should be defined and used by scan, wallpaper, and Indy Art staff, just as the rules for what is permitted as per the current ecchi guidelines. There are simply some things that a truly "family friendly" site should not store for viewing and download.

Cirru

Cirru

Interstellar Force

Agree with Valuna.

Myri-chan, you've been a member for almost 4.5 years on this site. Why wait so long to bring up this issue that you have such a problem with?

Mmmm... cake
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CyanideBlizzard

Retired Moderator

CyanideBlizzard

Margarita Time!

Quote by CirruAgree with Valuna.

Myri-chan, you've been a member for almost 4.5 years on this site. Why wait so long to bring up this issue that you have such a problem with?

Bear in mind that Myri has only been active amongst the community for about half a year.

Also keep in mind that the majority of any community general prefer to stay silent. Especially in regards to when it comes to staff confrontations. Also, the nature of content in scans has gradually gotten more and more revealing with more and more younger content in the ten years that Minitokyo has been running for.

I don't think duration of membership should have any reflection, in any aspect, on what someone chooses to bring up with. Please, let us try to keep this constructive and within the confines of this topic, not the individual who suggested it.

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moritz

Scanner

moritz

the cursing hedgehog

All that is amazing ! Everyone can see that most of the main characters, in mangas or japanese animation, are very young females. 80% are wearing school uniforms, swimsuits and gym clothes and are consequently aged between 12 and 18. It's not the size of the breast that makes difference. Worse, big breast on a teenage character could be considered as a sexual phantasm. This worship of the youth is a part of japanese culture, and doesn't mean that japanese people are pedophile. There are less sexual crimes in Japan than in the rest of the world. So, if you want to add a new tag like "lolicon", why not. It should apply to all school age feminine characters. And do not forget "shotacon", as some members might be disturbed by the presence of young boys... Will there be a debate concerning the presence of guns and weapons, which are a part of american culture ?

I'll give you a spoonful of ecchi with a pinch of humor ^_^
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What I learned from this topic is that excessive use of ".........." annoys me more than ecchi loli scans.

On more serious note, I pretty much agree with Hooyaah. There could be a similiar option in configuration to "hide ecchi content" and you could call it "hide lolicon ecchi", I just hope such tag won't be abused and used on every scan with young girl character :O The ones provided as examples in main post is something that could have such tag added imho, and I could totally survive without seeing them. I wouldn't say they make me feel disturbed but just kinda awkward.

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akiranyo

akiranyo

Astraea Kisaragi

It can be very easily solved with a possibility to hide scans which are tagged both "ecchi" and "children" or create a new tag in addition to those two. I don't remember the registration process anymore, but it would be also great if the active filters could be selected right there.
Also I have no intention to sound like a elitist, but is hard for me to accept such a weakly backed proposition by somebody who is still barely familiar with the site itself.

Since I write satires, my whole life is one huge inspiration. (Horatius)
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pandemonium91

Retired Moderator, Tagger

pandemonium91

In regards to filtering out certain content, you can do that by searching for "gallery you want -tag you want to hide" (e.g. "C.C. -Doujinshi").

Quote by Falbare90I say post a Wiki with the Character plus an age of the Character to explain if it's a child or not

Sure, if members are willing to write descriptions for the character tags they create or know information about. We've always been eager to have tag descriptions - not wiki-length, but brief ones will suffice.

Lolicon/Shotacon tags would be difficult to define. They would refer to preteen characters, so teens would obviously not be tagged with this. However, we already have the Children tag, and the solution Aki proposed is the best for filtering out content you want to avoid. Furthermore, what if a character looks young but isn't (see the 3000-years-old example I gave above)? Going by looks, they'd be lolis/shotas, but going by age, they're more adult than the most adult person on the planet! Deto is right that the two tags would be abused; some people seem to have a natural aversion to reading tag descriptions.

Implementing a tag filter (i.e. the one accessible from the "Site Options" menu, not via search) for each and every subtag of ecchi would not be feasible because:
1) a high amount of ecchi scans aren't tagged properly and thus wouldn't be caught by the filter;
2) since we might create more ecchi subtags to better filter content (see X-ray Vision and Human Present for the two most recent examples), we'd need to create a filter for every new tag. And then, of course, we'd need to make filters for other things as well: shounen-ai, shoujo-ai, doujinshi etc. and it would all snowball into chaos. All these can be resolved with the search option I mentioned at the beginning of this post.

Hard Ecchi would be used for more extreme content. See some Queen's Blade scans (not all of them, of course).

If you can't handle me at my best, then you don't deserve me at my worst!

btw, I think "borderline hentai" sounds better than "hard ecchi"

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CyanideBlizzard

Retired Moderator

CyanideBlizzard

Margarita Time!

Quote by akiranyo
Also I have no intention to sound like a elitist, but is hard for me to accept such a weakly backed proposition by somebody who is still barely familiar with the site itself.

If it helps, a similar proposition was suggested several years ago by over half the staff. The entire situation was internally done, though.

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Ak1r0

Ak1r0

a xenomorph in heart

Quote by akiranyoFirst we are going to dump ecchi tag on every woman with a rack and now we are throwing loli on every girl whos small and flat. Did somebody got until the basic conslusion that we are talking about fictive animated characters? Believe me, real pedophiles don't know what anime actually is.
I will be blunt, MT was fine as it was for a whole decade. I could understood the ecchi strikedown, losing revenue, means losing being a free site. I got over with.
But now somebody tries to make a mountain from a molehill. A site which gives access to art from the latest anime shows and artbooks of all sorts, will always hold some spicy material. With current popularity of fanservice in anime you simply cannot be 100% family friendly. Not even 50%. Some may look underage and some will be underage. We didn't allow hardcore material anyways and sometimes even scans on the edge are filtered out, our scan mods do a great job and also our regular scanners already know what they can and cannot submit.
Mass-deleting material will lead to loss of many great art pieces and also to loss of members which view such things as normal.
If somebody has sexual-related side thoughts by looking at such a picture, the problem lies in the person and not in the picture itself. He should see a specialist. Nuff said.
So, if you find those offensive, turn your ecchi filter on and call it a day. Out there you have anime galleries with the craziest hentai stuff and they don't even require registration to view everything just as it is.

@akiranyo if i could upvote your comment, i would do it like 100 times so i'm sure the site got my upvote


as for anyone who thinks this is wrong, bad or whatever dont search for these kind of pictures or just turn on your ecchi filter and be done with it. Minitokyo is a place for anime art and this is definitely into that section in my books. its a little more spicy than usual, big deal! there is a filter for it, you can always opt not to search for this kind of art or dont click on it or go see a specialist.

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whoever wins...we lose.

i will skip some digressive remarks about the my writing particularity or whatever is unrelated to the subject ........

i know that my frankness had made some of the members angry ....

let us know people that crime rate in japan has nothing to do with anime....... that's nonsense....

like pande said we must not confuse the word lollita and lolicon they are not synonimous.....

for me these appelations like lolicon/shotacon/babykon are too "euphemistic" we must cleary identify them as "children ecchi" wich is more honest ...

so people might be betterly informed that way .....and the rest is between their conscience and them.......

Valuna

Retired Moderator

Valuna

Naughty Artist

The crime rate in Japan is related to what you stated earlier in this thread, Myri. The keyword for that is "Pedophiles". I have already answered that part and someone else did it aswell.

Thing with the children part is that if you are going to do one thing to seperate them from Ecchi, then you should do it for more. The only way to avoid it is being able to categorize them as "borderline hentai" or "extreme/hard ecchi". But is this really the solution? Do you really only care about the cases that are nearly hentai? They all belong to the sexualization of little children.

Basically, I don't really care what is done. I just think it is a hassle to add more categories as you should be aware that turning off the Ecchi Filter there might be content you are not so pleased with. I mean...When you go outside in a big mall or something, it's not like you are going to filter out all the rotten apples. You are aware of the chances and are prepared to face the consequences yourself by choosing to enter the area.

Now, another suggestion might be adjusting the rules a bit. Thing is, Ecchi is Ecchi and as long genitals aren't involved it remains Ecchi.
Aside from that, for filtering, there could be combination filter for Ecchi + <insert category> ?
Then again..Panda already mentioned you can search "Ecchi -children" already.

All in all...some prefer them big and large and others small and fragile or perhaps midway. Even if they are children, you should not forget Japan's age of legality, which is only 14. It really is just art and I think you should respect the fantasies and desires of others as everyone has their own taste. There is a large group that loves being a lolicon, but dislikes real lolis.

These beautiful, fragile days are reborn, unfaded
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Quote by ValunaThe crime rate in Japan is related to what you stated earlier in this thread, Myri. The keyword for that is "Pedophiles". I have already answered that part and someone else did it aswell..

Valuna , i'm afraid that i really don't understand what are you meaning...? can you please be more explicit?

Quote by ValunaAll in all...some prefer them big and large and others small and fragile or perhaps midway. Even if they are children, you should not forget Japan's age of legality, which is only 14. It really is just art and I think you should respect the fantasies and desires of others as everyone has their own taste. There is a large group that loves being a lolicon, but dislikes real lolis.

i never reffered to "pubescent" people (14 years) wich classify them as lolitas not lolicons.....there's a misunderstanding....

if you are saying that an art about naked children is just innocent.....well i'm sorry but i disagree....

sorry i can't respect fantasies about children fictional or not......


Valuna

Retired Moderator

Valuna

Naughty Artist

- Read number 1 & 3 in my first post.

14 years old tend to be shown as flat girls. Not to mention that people these days tend to become sexually active in either pornography, self-satisfaction or even the act itself once they reach the 2-digit number. I said this to lower the tension on the lolis age-wise.

No matter how you look at it, it is a pain to write biographies for all lolis. Not to mention that there are many unnamed ones. Take them all or just take none. It will become a mess if you don't take every loli, regardless of age but merely by looks into consideration.

Basically..Myri. Who are you to say what is right and wrong? Good and bad? You, and you only have a certain view of things. Other people have other views and may consider what you call wrong, right. To each his/her own. You enter the gallery knowing the risks. I don't really think you have the right to complain, but as Minitokyo will try to cope with what members say, I will take back on my actual thought.

Important information for you Myri: There exists a lot of art representing naked men and women which is not considered as a sexual thing, but art. I am sorry to say this but...Art itself has no boundaries by law. It is an expression of history or fantasies. One can interpret a girl with cream as innocent, an almost naked girl as innocent and one can see those things, for the same reason as naughty. It depends on each individual. I'm not trying to make an excuse. I just said I agree with Aki, saying that there is something wrong with the person viewing it.

These beautiful, fragile days are reborn, unfaded
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