Okay guys and gals, everyone, please don't run away right now, i know this thread is kinda huge, but it is very
interesting, and trying to make you react and therefore improve MT community and life.
Well as a representative of the Order-of-Reason, i'd like to introduce the "how this
project came to life", by combining all the posts that have been made in the Order GB, so you get a clear (more or
less) idea of what the goal of this thread. Please keep in mind that this project is huge, and this only a
'preprint', because we agreed that it would have to be splitted into multiple threads to be effective.
After that, i'll make a quick summary for all those who're lazy to read all this.
We will first try talk about the questions, topics or issues that we want to raise. That is called 'framing the
discussion' or setting the scope and limitations of the paper/s.
Quote by charaznableamurorei (brace yourselves for a Yomiko Verbosity Attacku... sorry again if I am being too imposing or dominating, or if I imposed too much on miketto's post ...)
This idea was inspired by some whispers that I've seen in threads/GB posts (now enhanced with the recent moves of mods to close down Game threads and the current campaign to ensure quality of submissions for the site)... I know the admonition, "If you don't like the rules, then leave", but I just feel that as fellow members of this online community (which we all love!), we as responsible and MT-loving addicts have to seriously address these sentiments -- let them out into the open and seek solutions/alternatives if need be, however passe or these may seem. I just don't feel that "The mods have spoken!" or "Obey the rules or perish!" is the end-all and be-all of solutions, however rational the reasoning that the MT mods/admin have the final say and ruling on the matter. I just feel that sometimes when one enforces the rules too much, all one gets is more resistance, and even the one who accomplishes the enforcement becomes corrupted or loses a part of their humanity (so to speak) in a way. Also, sometimes I feel that technical measures in order to prevent 'user/member abuse' just doesn't work; heck, the IMF/World Bank (offline world) recommends lots of "technical, structural adjustment programs" in many poor countries in order to fix their economies, but these technical measures only promote more poverty and do more harm than good! It doesn't hurt to "look in the mirror" sometimes -- "reflection" as a valid and potent analytical tool. I know that there is a Suggestions & Complaints section that is already provided for these types of rants/complaints, but I somehow sense that that section only provides release (?), and, sometimes, leaves hurt feelings. (well, some argue "Get over it!", but that's very insensitive and impersonal.)
Minitokyo claims to be a "community", and I believe that something has to be done in order to promote or enhance that "community" because we love it to death. ^_^
I propose that we (or, if appropriate, someone else) initiate a "virtual working paper" on a thread or even here that will attempt to analyze the various trends and relationships among the various types of members/groups/cliques in MT and synthesize/collate/bring together facts, opinions and perceptions. It will be like a sort of social research. This paper will aim to synthesize or gather together the various experiences/solutions/problems in MT. Of course, that would mean identifying who the 'actors/players/stakeholders' in MT are: you have MT member (here we have lots of sub-types), artist, mods/admin, leecher, etc.a lot of questions, hopefully, will be posed and, hopefully, answered in the "virtual working paper". Here are just some examples that popped out of my head:
(1) What are the roles MT members/mods/admin generally play in MT?
(2) What are the major problems plaguing MT right now? Either 'perceived' or 'real'? Technical or social?
(3) What are the reasons why people come here and stay in Minitokyo?
(this particular question already breeds a lot of sub-questions...) Do these reasons reflect in the actions that these people undertake in MT?
(4) Do the majority of people participate in the various going-ons of MT, or are they primarily just here for the scans/walls? Is this "leecher" tendency necessarily detrimental to the community?
(5) Are some cliques/groups/members being alienated or isolated - is this perceived or a direct-indirect kind? Why?
(6) What are MT members/groups/mods' initiatives in improving MT? Technical-wise and social-wise? (By improving MT, I believe that one does not only mean 'cleaning up clutter/spam' or implementing technical measures, but it also means 'increased participation/communication/understanding through projects, collabs [social measures]', etc.) Are these technical and social initiatives working?
(7) Are there gaps in the community that need to be addressed?
Hopefully, during the course of the working "virtual paper", we can detect/quantify/qualify tendencies and patterns that may be helpful not only to the mods/admin, but also insightful to ourselves as well. "To know oneself," in essense. A romantik description of this endeavor is that "we attempt to look into the mirror which reflects who or what we are, and see for ourselves the flaws and merits we have, and seek to promote our merits, and do something about our flaws." The important thing about this "virtual working paper" is that it might serve as a cumulative guide and might better understand why this group/clique/trend behaves likes this, etc.
Also, it might be a way of building bridges or strengthening links among the community. Oh! Think of this as the 'empirical', 'analytical' version of the doujinshi contest I proposed a while back! ^_^
Here are some trends in MT that are pretty much interesting, to give some ideas: (at least, what I observed so far....)
i think that there is a developing trend that some responsibilities officially designated to the mods/admin are actually being "devolved", consciously or unconsciously, to the othe sections in MT. Many, I feel, are so concerned with the various problems of MT that they are offering various solutions, like regularly posting suggestions to the forums. The Chaos Cross patrol is commendable for actually helping out the mods/admin in maintaining the site by cleaning the forums and advising new members. I've seen many MT members who are acting on their own/indidually to remind noobs to read the Noob Bibles and Help threads before plunging into the galleries/forums. Even the 'seemingly-marginalized' sections of MT like the Hispanime group are making their own efforts by translating the FAQs into their vernacular Spanish in order to deepen understanding and, hopefully, promote cooperation/community building. Also, there are pretty helpful groups that have recently sprung up that have the potential to be "social measures/solutions" to the wallpaper deletion problem: check out & support the MTNoobClub!!!
Other trend is the tendency of MT mods/concerned members to always undertake/suggest "technical solutions" to problems. Re: wallpaper deletion. While the mods cannot be discounted or questioned for their decisions which wall is done with/without effort, one has to understand the pain of knowing that your artwork was rejected. That, I feel, is the problem of applying "technical solutions" to problems of a social nature. That is why I feel that groups such as the MTNoobClub group just might be a good "social solution" to a "social problem".
Umm, I'm not sure if this is the right group to present this proposal (haha, me into Yukinon mode again)... but I'd really love to hear the opinions of people on this proposal, if it is worth undertaking or anything. Anyway, we have lots of 'empiricists' and more senior MT members (who might be able to contribute factual, concrete observations) on board in Order of Reason, so for them, this type of research might be exciting. I offer this proposal as a challenge of sorts. ^_^
Quote by shinsengumiHowever, embarking upon such a project would help further the intellectual aims of the group while providing for something that is of tangible benefit to the greater Minitokyo community, and thus I think that the idea in itself is a very interesting one that should be seriously considered.
Quote: Hopefully, during the course of the working "virtual paper", we can detect/quantify/qualify tendencies and patterns that may be helpful not only to the mods/admin, but also insightful to ourselves as well. "To know oneself," in essense. . . The important thing about this "virtual working paper" is that it might serve as a cumulative guide and might better understand why this group/clique/trend behaves likes this, etc.
That's an ambitious goal, and a good way to tie it back to the group.
This is a very interesting notion that I've really never considered before. On the one hand, I can see why it may not make sense to apply a technical solution to a social problem, but in the context of Minitokyo, technology provides the foundations upon which everything else exists, and thus the technical problems may be the root causes for the social issues. At the very least, it's definitely something we can discuss and debate, and if we do some research and observation, it may be a question that we may be able to eventually answer.
In a nutshell, I think it's a good idea and would personally be interested in helping out on such an ambitious and intellectually rewarding endeavor. If there's enough interest, I don't see why we couldn't (or shouldn't) try to get this project going.
Quote by SWPIGWANGOMG, charaznableamurorei attacku stronngggg!!!!111!1
since I don't oppose statistics, especially when I'm not doing the collecting but can trace though the methology and data if need....
Quote: (2) What are the major problems plaguing MT right now? Either 'perceived' or 'real'? Technical or social?
Social: Repeat threads, probably due to high n00b influx compared to some other forums.
Technical: maybe it is just me, but I can't post replies to reviews.
Quote: (3) What are the reasons why people come here and stay in Minitokyo?
(this particular question already breeds a lot of sub-questions...) Do these reasons reflect in the actions that these people undertake in MT?
Well, I started out here since I want to leech the nice scans.... bleh....but finding people to talk to is a nice bounse. I guess we need a poll......
Quote: (4) Do the majority of people participate in the various going-ons of MT, or are they primarily just here for the scans/walls? Is this "leecher" tendency necessarily detrimental to the community?
We need polls for this sort of stuff.....but note that leechers probably won't reply to them resulting in distorted results. As for "leecher" harm, I guess the spam they bring in could be annoying, but they also do bring in new influxes of people that could freshen up debates and become long lasting members. Maybe a leech-post ratio statistic would help.
Quote: (5) Are some cliques/groups/members being alienated or isolated - is this perceived or a direct-indirect kind? Why?
MT doesn't seem to be any different from most other online communities. Any alienation probably stems from lack of certain types of topics to draw the lurkers out into a group.
Quote: Also, sometimes I feel that technical measures in order to prevent 'user/member abuse' just doesn't work;
It works well enough, if just isn't perfect. Flood control works, IP banning known destructive posters work, and any functional site uses them, but it can't solve everything.
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There is one problem that haven't been completely addressed here however, and is that what kind of community do we really want here? After all different places have different dyanmics and sense of community, as some are founded by endless battles between trolls, others are founded upon common ideology and a sense of prosecution from the outside (especially true for forums of issue-based websites) and there are those that revolves around a few members-gods of forums controlling most of discussion though either wisdom, longevity, force of will or mod powers, and there are those that live on random posts from a glancing population. There are places I've seen where people are all completely nice with each other (certain girl forums...) and there are those that people do flaming as spot. There are places where discussion involves uncritical sharing of individual feelings, and there are those that thrive on slamming people down with inpersonal logic.
So what is demanded here, if there is any demand to start with?
or maybe I've been reading the flamewarrior website too much?
Quote by charaznableamuroreiSecond issue: Proposal re: Virtual Working Paper (it's somewhere at the bottom of the GB)
Hikarujm-friend and jasmine-friend (from Hispanime and an Elite Member, respectively) have also expressed interest in the proposal via this thread: http://forum.minitokyo.net/showthread/13646/ .
So, anyway, I do not know; since if we are working via 'consensus' here, then would it be safe to assume that since there is lack of interest in the proposal, it goes out the window? If we vote on it, I don't know either if that would reflect all the sentiments of the Order's members. charaznableamurorei
(or for the benefit of your tired fingers: chararadadasd, char-chan, rei-chan, or Yomiko )
Quote by Mordin
Quote by charaznableamuroreiProbably the main question that needs to be tackled is, "Is Order-of-Reason" the proper forum for this proposal?" I would love to know if people in Order are willing to undertake the proposal/project or not.
That is a very ambitious project you propsed there Yomiko. First thing you have to deal with is apathy, second do you want an uniform effort or just people do inputs to the master director of the project. Once you go those things iron out, I believe the Odder is the perfect forum for you to spread the agenda. Just the fact the mt is predominately for anime related stuff doesn't mean the community can't have a social conscious. It is very important for you to state the thesis and the boundary of the project as it deals with social values might create undue conflict.
If everything goes right, this project would be an important step toward the goal of the Order. It would also involve members that are previously indifference toward this type of issues.
Quote by RevueKeh, I call for a quasi-Inquisition in S&C; that place is full of snobby, get-over-it posts. Those posts, my friends, can be considered spam: they are irrelevant, not helpful and highly annoying.
Rants aside, I’m sooo right behind you, Yomiko. This might result in a very potent wake-up call for both members and mods of MT and it might somehow ease the growing tension between the two said parties. People tend to ignore the questions you raised and rarely realize that these merit more discussion than, say, what we ate for breakfast. Yet though MT is filled with all sorts of characters, ranging from leechers to die-hard posters, a lot of members are still willing tackle those issues. So yeah, this study will gain support from different “sectors� of MT; one need not be a genius to foresee the benefits members and mods alike could reap from this undertaking.
Quote by kimifoxI think that one of the most interesting aspects of MT is the ability to "network" - you find people you think are cool, add them to your friends list, and that makes navigating the tons and tons of posts a bit easier because presumably the people you think are interesting will keep on being interesting when they make posts and submit scans or art. The groups achieve this to some extent - when I'm looking for posts I want to read, I hit this group page first. The Groups page is a bit scary, too, from a sheer amount of data standpoint. What do you think about a post that asks "Tell us the most interesting post/s in the groups you belong to"? That would give prospective groupies (*giggle*) a perspective that may say more about the actual construction of the group than the description can. Asking people what the most popular post in the groups they belong to might be interesting as well.
Quote by MordinHey Kimi oneichan, that is very interesting idea you post there. The aspect that you describe are very true in mt's networking, the friendlist just make mt more user friendly in terms of locating people of similar interest. Analogy for that is it makes mt less of a country more of a small town. I would also like to see a some type of polling data to gather Yomiko's idea, so we could isolate our goal one step at a time.
Quote by DeusIthIn math, there's always the idea of spliting the problem to solve into smaller problems, until atomic ones appear, and then tackle each one to eventyally get a solution to the problem. I think Yomiko's idea can be (and must be) splited in many different threads and then, as the communty responds to them, we, as the "intelectual" group of MT, will analyze the results and then come up with a PDF explaining everything
Okay so here come the SUMMARY. "virtual working paper" on a thread or even
here that will attempt to analyze the various trends and relationships among the various types of members/groups/cliques
in MT and synthesize/collate/bring together facts, opinions and perceptions. It will be like a sort of social
research. This paper will aim to synthesize or gather together the various experiences/solutions/problems in MT. Of
course, that would mean identifying who the 'actors/players/stakeholders' in MT are: you have MT member (here
we have lots of sub-types), artist, mods/admin, leecher, etc.
Basically, this means that with everyone’s help, we’ll create something like a ‘social
thermometer’ here on MT, focusing on the problems (not technicall problems, these are dealt with in the help /
tech lounge) that we feel are important in the community. So this is only an introduction thread to the project, which
will later have to be split into multiple threads.
Brought to you by Order-of-Reason
Original idea by charaznableamurorei
Supported by Hispanime
Thanks to ratkin45, shinsengumi the boss, mordin, kimifox,
revue,
knight-of-lain, swpigwang, DeusIth, Danal
Bowing very low to biriwilg fro making this thread a red
dot one. Thx a lot, i think this will help a lot.
Please everyone, go through the trouble of reading all this one day. And then for your reactions, i don't want
things like *oh good idea, sounds great* etc......... and then leave. What i want, as the representative of the Order,
is contructive debate that will help the mods and every member to improve the life of MT.
Thanks again to everyone, and have fun.
And here are thread that we think should be interesting, debating problems about walls, behaviour on MT and other various subjects
