This thread seems more philosophical than some of the other threads I have created. Though there were threads created on the subject already, they are outdated, but this thread has a deeper goal. Recently, I had numerous thoughts about the differences about male and female and wanting to get a better understanding of the role of each gender, and all of my thoughts were incurred in the relationship that I currently have which I'm very proud of. I do know basics about the roles of men and women in society, but however, through our reasoning, some of us just can't really seem to grasp that deeper meaning (at least that's what I think).

All sorts of thoughts have been established overtime that today entail some of the physical and emotional differences between male and female, like for example how men aren't really supposed to cry and that women feel pain during pregnancy and giving birth. There are people who ask why men can't feel the same pain as females in pregnancy or why men are more susceptible to being killed or thrown in jail because of certain circumstances. It is as if men are destined to do one thing and women are destined to do something else.

Was female really set out to feel more pain then males? Was male really set out to take care of their families by going to work and providing for his wife and possibly children? These are some of the questions that I have been asking myself lately, and though I know that some of the "rules" have changed over the years, it does not mean that they're completely a mindset for all people as there are some who "live in the past".

I truly wish to elaborate more based on the responses received, and forgive me if the topic is a bit daunting. Your thoughts on the subject are most welcome. ^_^

There are a few bits of hard wring for these processes I think (only women can become pregnant) but on the whole it would appear that a lot of these behaviours are learnt. Men don't cry because thay are discouraged at an early age. People say things to them like "Only girls cry" and suddenly it becomes fact. In my experience as a man gets older he (sometimes) relearns the ability to be emotional and therefore cry. Men on the whole are encouraged by both genders to remain emotionless.

On the whole it would seem that men are much more aggressive, which can be seen by the history of wars, a view around the school playing areas, bars, sports etc. etc. I guess that's the higher testosterone levels. When women drink alot, their testosterone levels rise to that of a man and the change in personality is obvious. I presume that most behaviours are brought about by natural selection (sorry to all you scientologists etc.) Some birds can't fly anymore because their wings have been adapted for courting. The female may prefer some attribute in the wing and before you know it, that attribute has rendered the poor bird flightless. In the same way I think men and women have been driven a bit to their respective roles. Ultimately though, humans (people) are very adaptable and that's why a woman can raise a child by herself as a man can when he's cornered (and sometimes prefered).

As far as the female ability to feel more pain goes, I don't know about that one. Perhaps it's cultural. Or perhaps you meant emotion. Women feel pain during child birth but the memory of it seems to be entirely erased. Men feel pain when they get a bad tooth ache and then again when they go to the dentist (but the memory of that severe tooth ache pain seems to be erased entirely and is only given lip service to after that) or when they get truly flattened while playing sport. So I don't know of this pain seperation of which you speak. Men cannot feel the same pain in pregnancy for purely biological reasons. Firstly they are not pregnant and secondly the baby is not trying to bust out of them. I'm sure a lot of men suffer the anxiety and the empathy. If I stamp on some one elses toe it doesn't make my toe hurt at all. How could it?

i see that you have brought up our topic from yesterday.
as i have said and i am sure you remember that somewhat females will go for the nook and crannies of society, not just because of the pain, but more, so i am sure they remember things better and therefore what they feel is actually deeper. there are more wifes staying with abusive husbands than men the other way round. you can see here is that they all have more power to take and take, but one thing, they feel not only deeper but can take more, so in this sense, yeah they can take more pain than men.#

for men, the age has come for change, and passed again with the fast competing world, and the rising market of women workforce of the world, we see that in this sense, the world has become a very competitive place, with such there is only one possible way to describe it, we are losing out. it can be said in my estimation, if men continue to follow theuir feminine side, we will soon become fully metrosexual and eventually, it is said that we will die out.

but back to here, i believe that it is natural for men to take more credit for the society, since we did most of the hard work as we forced women to stay home, but that was forced, we are no changing, there is a relative trend of more men staying home for the family nowadays.

our agressive nature can soon be settled, but only once women have taken over the power of a nation. so far there has been few. and even lesser that make relevant differences

I think that it is partly because of our parents that we are this way!
The boys see there father and he is stronge and not weak or at least doesn't show it. While for girls we see our mother as someone who is kind and caring. That is what influences us the most! I think that we all weather we admit it or not view our parents as our role models. There are those families that the kids really don't have good or any parents to be role models and look to themselves and their friends! I think that in a way that is how we are all made out like this!

In my family I have no brothers only sisters so my dad treats us like boys, but my mom treats us like girls! It made us each different in our own way! My oldest sister is the tuff big sister, My other sister is the soft one, and I'm a mix of the two! I really don't now all that much about the guys role in life becasue my dad provides for my family but my mom does also! My dad has only cried once in front of me and that is when his grandma died(my great grandma). Other than that my dad has always been stronge! But if my dad was more sensitive I don't think he would be my dad! I like how he doesn't cry, becasue I will always no that no matter what he is my backbone the person who will get me to stop crying! I think that we each play a role in someones life and influence the way that they act! There are a lot of differences in men and women weather it be that women cry and suffer through the pain of birth but in the end of all that pain we would do it again! Men may not cry or be as sensitive as some women can but there are those who can and I believe that everyones role in life is determind by our parents adn how we are raised! There is so set role of women adn men though there are the roles that are most common but we are each different and each person does have a different role in life no matter how similar the roles may seem!

i gree ... so longgg because my points over e not know give more?

*sigh* Well, might as well put in my opinion.

Evolution deems certain roles for males and females; the male was to be stronger to he could adequately protect the female (i.e. the child giver), and thus pass on his genetics and make sure that his species could survive as a whole. Obviously this relied on the fact that predators would be wanting to go for the pregnant creature, or, the creature that was disabled but had more nutrition.

We have, as a society and as creatures, evolved beyondd that. While other animals adapted and became stronger, faster, and more resiliant, humans became smarter. Eventually, most predators were physically stronger than humans, but we could defend ourselves with primitive weapons. At that time period, however, females were still unable to defend themselves, as most weapons were shaped to the physique of a man, and therefore were heavier, requiring more muscles.

Fast forward to today.

People now have no fear of predators eating them or there children. In fact, pretty much the only thing that threatens a family line is impotency. However, these beliefs of Men's superiority over Women still persist...because old habits die hard. After all, (though I'm not saying it's OK) if Men dominated Women in society regularly since pre-technology (pulley, wheel, etc...) days, our society will naturally be inclined to remain the same.

Although this is not an appropriate belief, most Men (and even some Women) believe subconciously that Males are better than Females. It can be traced from being a child, where boys naturally were stronger than females, to adulthood, where the women express emotions more naturally than men. Whatever you believe, society is perpetuating this belief with media, hard-wiring these beliefs into our system.

Now that I've given abit of background, how about what I believe?

Well, I'm not sexist. I think that Women and Men can easily be on equal grouhds...just not in the same manner.

-Men are naturally stronger. We have not evolved to the point where Women NEED to be as strong or stronger than a Man, Men will develope more muscles.

-Women are more beutifal. Sounds weird...but more adaptation here. Wider hips in the animal world means more ease when delivering babies, means more likelihood to deliver multiple babies. This translates into Men fealing more lust towards women with wider hips. In addition, the hips are essentially one long curved line on either side, so Men start to become more attracted to otehr curves on a Womens body; the legs, the stomach, the breasts, the shoulders, the neck, etc... This means that while Women won't necasarily always be looked down upon, it means that Men will be staring at Womens boobies alot more than Women at Men.

-Men automatically show less emotion. This isn't just something the media drills into us, it's something that peers drill into us. Think of it like a really smelly version of Chicken: if you can take a bullet and not cry, than there are going to be less people who will shoot at you, because they know that it's not gonna do much. Obviously not a fluent example, but you get the point. In this case, emotion=fear=weak=bad protector. In fact, it is possible that Men's nerves have been dulled slightly more than Women's, so that they can take more pain and therefore dish out more damage without stopping. So, in essence, Men are hardwired (alot of that word today, eh?) not to show pain because it is more attractive to a potential mate. Er...I should say was, I guess.

-Women automatically show more emotion. A child is more likely to survive if it's parents pay more attention to it. It is never smart to get between an emotional mother and her child. Women show more pain (childbirth). Those three statements taken alone are GENERALLY correct. However, we make the mistake of associating all three of those togethor, and thus create a mindset where emotional Women are good people. An example: Emotionless Men=cool, while Emotionless Women=cold. Cool and Cold are synonemns that have entirely different connotations.

I've gotta go to my class in five minutes, so maybe I'll post more after that, but that's what I've got so far.

Last thing, just because I write it does not mean they are not beliefs I hold to be true. These are all just analyzations I have made based on personal experience and studying. Tell me if I've pissed anyone off, 'cause I really, really didn't mean to if I did.

Was male really set out to take care of their families by going to work and providing for his wife and possibly children?

Back in the old days, people thought that males were more stronger than women.
For that belief, males most likely think that they have to have less emotion than females would show. The belief made poeople think that the "strong" have to work to support their families. Today, women are technically stronger than men because the majority of females usually last longer in their lives than males.

Was female really set out to feel more pain then males?

Females were not really set out to feel more pain than males because the males try to hold their emotins back. Since males believe that they were strong, they try to hold back their emotions if something painful happens... So if they never believe in "strong" and "weak," they would mostly likely to feel and equal amount of pain as to women.

Off topic: So much stuff to say...
I don't know if anything that I
wrote makes sense

ah... here i am procrastinating studying for my social science exam and here is a thread on exactly what i am procrastinating on!

well, like griffin-san said, some things are hardwired for males and females. (ie: pregnancy). and like others have already stated in the early days of man, men were built for strength-- to protect but mainly to hunt. women were built to bear progeny. but other than physical differences i think most of the emotional things are learned. women are not hardwired to feel more pain than males, they just learn to express their feelings more effectively. males are taught that they have to be tough and not show weakness. when we are young we learn what is expected of us -- from parents, books, television. all those stories with the women staying at home and taking care of the kids while the male goes to work. it's a form of conditioning. if something is repeated over and over it starts to be seen as the norm.

ok... i guess i should get back to studying now... (sry if my post is confusing and random... too many thoughts in the head... )

Despite claims that gender behaviors are learned, the real evidence shows just the opposite. Give a little girl in a gender-neutral household a few toy trucks, and it is likely it will result with a mama truck, papa truck, and baby truck. Give a boy dolls in the same situation and he is likely to use them for target practice or something of the sort.

The gender-obliterating views of much of society these days are a pipe-dream.

i feel the women should relax while the man takes care of her,if i had it my way i would never make ma girl work,cept cleaning the house,thou i would gladly help,better yet i feel if both work together then more can be acomplished ^_^

Some have said that men often take the initiative when it comes to going for girls, but why is that the case? Why can't girls often go to men? I saw some replies that men have to be able to prove themselves to others, but I don't see why men have to go all out just to prove their worth to someone else. It's as if the men have to change themselves, especially if the men aren't quite social and would like for girls to approach them. It's true that men are pleased when girls approach them, but when a man approaches a girl, she may not be pleased as she may be looking for specific qualities in the man. Why isn't it really vice versa though?

A lot of what's being said is not backed up by any evidence, but I can't fault the process of coming to such conclusions. For the person who said that the male is better than the female in natural selection, I'd have to disagree, not on any feminist basis, but on the basis that during the pre-natal period, a fetus is naturally female. It is nature's tendency to create females over males. If there is no interference of chemicals during the pre-natal period, the fetus would follow its natural course and develop into a female.

As to the role of males and female in society, some of the charactistics that define males from females can be influenced by the environment, but a majority of the gender roles comes down to the genes and specifically androgens. I refuse to go into that because I don't feel like writing out a lecture, but what it comes down to is that the pre-natal developmental period is crucial in creating the male and female personalities/charateristics that defines a gender, and if something were to go wrong it would be responsible for giving female attributes to a male, and male attributes to a female not just physically but emotionally as well.

Humans are social animals, but it has been the female throughout the history of society and evolution that have been the backbones of their community. Since they've been the nurturer, females are more familiar with social settings and the enactment of communications. This can be seen by the by the male's usage of mostly only his left frontal lobe for language and communications while a female's brain activity for language and communications is more devided up in the left and right hemispheres. This is why men seem so more logically, and women -if you must put it- more emotional.

Birth for a woman and the pain that goes with it is purely the consequences of evolution. It is not there to devide the genders into males or females, but is the after-effect of humans becoming upright creatures.

The role of males in society as the provider is backed up not only by evolutional history but also the history of man-made standards as to women being the less able of the two in any agressive field, but society's gender principles throughout history was more of a justification for opression than anything else.

For the whole "guys having to take the initiative" thing, I really can't understand that either. If you look at historical studies of the mating process and how it's evolved over time, you can probably come to some sort of viable conclusion for it, but right now... I don't want to. XP

Quote by luckymousei feel the women should relax while the man takes care of her,if i had it my way i would never make ma girl work,cept cleaning the house,thou i would gladly help,better yet i feel if both work together then more can be acomplished ^_^

RELAX? Not in this day and age! I am what some call "old fashioned"......my wife stays home, and don't work. Thats cool, until you look at your bank account! But it ticks me off that sometimes things don't get done, she sleeps VERY late, and suggests that I help out around the house! And to top it all off, she frowns at me when I buy something expensive, because she wants something for herself! So I simply tell her to get a job and she won't have to worry about it! You see the role here is now reversed; before she used to work while I looked for a job. I had to clean the house, pick up the son, pick her up from work, and cook the food. Nothing better be out of place either! >=0000000~~~~~! Since the blood of a soldier was still flowing in my veins, and the civilian workplace was becoming more racially biased, I decided to re-join the Army. I remember telling her, "you don't have to work IF you don't want to." I don't know how she took it but it was a choice; work or don't work! When it gets hard to pay bills, run low on food, and can't get the thing you want, its best that both should work (unless they have children that can't take care of themselves). I know that there will be times that it is hard, but thats life. As for my wife she still don't work, and its cool with me. Having extra loot would be nice too......:D

If women want to be equal, then fine.....be my guest. But you gotta roll with lifes punches or go back to the kitchen and shut up!

Edit: Oh by the way I still have to cook and clean or she'll get mad! Guess I'll never win!

I'm not sure I like the way some people approach this topic. Men and woman are biologically different. That is a fact. These physical differences are evolutionary adaptations designed to allow the human race to survive in a competitive environment. Because our mental and emotional capacities are influenced by our biological make up there are modern day ramifications in these evolutionary differences.

However, the actual position of women in society has nothing to do with these differences. Human civilization has advanced (i hope) to the point that we can escape the biological controls in our make-up. If you can control your anger enough not to get in fight at a ballgame, then you have enough sense not to blindly accept the cultural biases impressed on you. A child's environment does much to force certain thought patterns into his or her developing mind, but any mature adult is capable of escaping those handicaps. Certain cultures do much to encourage men to be emotionally stunts and women to be over-excitable; however, many men learn to express themselves and many women learn to have a poker face.

What gets me is that you are all still thinking in "roles" or "places." Is homemaker a role or a job description? It should be nothing more than a job description. Making a home is work right? Is protector a role? It is a job. If you can see these situations as any other positions, then you can take a step towards equality. Equality doesn't mean conformity or sameness. Equality in the truest sense is a conception of worth. If you are equal to someone, then you are as valuable. Historically speaking women have been severely oppressed as a special type of property; however, they have also been considered more valuable than men. Durring the Middle Ages the Church (yes the Church) might have considered women inferior; it might have demanded that women be beaten and such to make them worthy of god; however, they have also been kept in shelters and prevented from fighting. Men went out to fight because they were in actuality less valuable because they lacked the potential to breed. It is a very great contradiction if you look at the situation closely. Women had no rights, but they also had no responsibilities in some respects (obiviously being required to clean the house, do all the cooking and cleaning, work in the kitchen garden, etc... is a great deal of work, but they didn't fight and they didn't deal with property or politics either [I'm not saying this was good. I'm suggesting that it is strange to ponder]). Equality is not in men and women fulfilling the same roles; it is men and women preforming the jobs they [independent of cultural biases] are most suited for. Is a teacher as valuable as a street sweeper?

Silent: As to your query about the gender "roles" in initiating relationships, well some of it is biological. It takes nine months to bring about a live birth and then a great deal of care to ensure that baby survives. Therefore women were more valuable in arachic societies. They might have been severely abused, but they were still more valuable. Humans by biological nature are scavengers. If a woman must remain in a relatively secure area to insure race survival, then men must be sacrificed to bring in non-immediately available resources. Hence, men will need to be stronger to survive farther from their "dens." There is an aspect of hunter or searcher in the male make-up which carries over into modern day relations. However, it is the deeper programing which really causes problems. If a man can breed with many women and thereby ensure his genetic survival, but a women can only ensure her genetic survival by choosing the best possible secondary genetic donor, then there are going to be problems in any relationship. There are lots of types of relationships, but those of attraction will be strained by two varying conceptions of value.

I'm so tired I'm not sure I actually made any sense or even really addressed the issue. Maybe I'll come back when I'm sane again and edit my message for coherence.

It took me 1 hour to read all the above post and understand it well....for my way of view

There is onli 1 things i shud say....God Knows

i've got to ask this: is it really that important?
male and female just ARE. that's the way things are and, presumably, were meant to be.

i think men and women can easily switch social roles if they wanted. but obviousley not if their sex gets in the way. like you cant have a woman in the nfl(yet), and you cant send a pregnant woman to Iraq.

and this is just a thought, does anyone know if there are any woman nascar drivers? im not sure but i dont think there are so im just going to assume that there are'nt. any ways, IF many women were to suddenly have the urge to race proffessionally, would nascar put them with the men immediately? or would they put them in a female division?

well when you think about it our society has change and will continue to so roles will differ to. but as for male and female current roles i think when a child is born the women should nuture it. I AM NOT SEXIST SO DO NOT QUOTE ME SAYING I AM! the men should work and provide. that is how it is in most animal kingdoms do it, and we are not to much different from animals when it comes to family. i am not saying that is how it always should be. if a women has a very high paying job, and man is unable to work or something like that it would change. but the way our bodies are made pretty much tell us. but that's just for family. in life most anything a man can do a women can do just as fine. but that does not mean they should. but as i said before as life changes the roles will change to.