I would like to open a public debate about the new highlighting system on MT3.
The situation:
I have to say I was extremely happy about this new system when MT3 first
arrived. I was assured by my close "in power" friends that artworks
would be wisely chosen and that Finally walls could be featured because they
were GOOD and deserved a place at the front page. But what I have been seeing
these days is quite the contrary. Wallpapers are most of the time not that
great, or look good but do not show any sign of work (i.e. cropped scans and the
likes)
Also, I find riddiculous that vectors that only RECG original scans are
highlighted. Yes, they can be very good and all, but vectoring a scan without
altering it is not art, but only a cleaning technique. Are scans highlighted?
no, and I hope they never will be. Isn't highlighting a concept reserved to good
artworks? ARTworks?
In other words: More than half of the picked submissions do not deserve their
place.
The problem:
Probably many of us do not realise that right now, only ONE OR TWO moderators
have the power to highlight anime wallpapers, in a community that holds more
than 191 780 members. Now I know MiniTokyo is not a democracy, but somewhere I
think the fact that one of the most important part of the site is decided by
only two moderators is obsolete. Not only this, but nowadays active MT mods are
not what they used to be. I am of course not saying that they are not doing
their job or are bad moderators, but that they simply are not experienced
wallpaper artists. I am myself friend with some of them and have absolutely
nothing to say about their partiality about rips and scan quality, etc. But the
fact that art pieces, if we can call wallpapers that, are chosen by mods who
have probably not the best eye for art
is deplorable. Now let's compare with other art communities I am familiar with
and that have the same system. AnimePaper has a highlight system that is
basically the same as ours, allthough there is only one highlight at a time. The
thing that makes it work there is that every highlight is chosen correctly and
for acceptable reasons like originality, beauty and visible hard work. The
majority of AP's moderators are experienced and good wallers. Another example is
the very known DeviantArt monster ( as in big place, not horrible). Their system
is of course adapted to a bigger scale. But the Daily Deviations can be
suggested by members and are therefore, probably closer to the public opinion.
The Deviations are also chosen rightly amongst a multitude of great pieces.
The Solution?
I have of course none that is perfect and could be applied right away. But
slapping a big question like this demands an answer. I beleive that the
highlighting system can work, I truly do. But for that MiniTokyo has to change.
For once, experienced wallpaper artists like I've said before could be chosen to
pick the highilghts. Not only this but they should be more than two for the
whole anime wallpapers section, and should have some sort of meeting to accept
the highlights together. Also, we could create a new category of members who
would be suggesting works to the highlights, or if it's too much trouble have
the Elite members do it. With this, the choosing would be quite fairer in my
opinion, than how it is right now.
The Debate..
now it's up to the MT members to ask themselves what system do they want, and
how they want it to be organised. Afterwards the people in power can make an
enlightened decision about this. So I'm asking you: What do you truly think of
this situation?
I would like to add the fact that I was asked by more than one to start the thread, consequently I am not
the only one thinking about this, maybe it should be time for "us" to
type out loud our thoughts
Not all mods are active.
So im thinking one the mods would think "Ah what the heck, no other mods
aren't on.*clicks to move it to highlight* < thats just an example.
I vote for NON-BIASED indiviual who has alot experience as an artist to pick the
highlights.
I.E That doesnt highlight a work from a friend as a favor.
When a mod highlights a wall, there should be something to identify which mod
highlighted it so we can at least see whose doing the work.
I don't think you could just pick experienced artists to pick highlights since
it'd be hard to make it fair. Though i might be wrong, seems like it might
create more problems with fairness, but oh well, lets the dutch god decide :P
Fairness? dont start, haha.
All of us had to bear of looking at "Walls that doesnt reach the
requirements on top favs" before mt3 came.
Now, you tell me which is fair, and which isnt! heh.
I don't see why wallers that have the
eye would make it harder not to be partial. Partiality is about the
individual, not his/her "class". A mod that doesnt wall can choose
only submissions from his/her friends just as an artist could.
And I do not believe the mods are currently highlighting things because the
members are their friends. This is nt the main issue here D:
Quote by DayBreakFairness? dont start,
haha.
All of us had to bear of looking at "Walls that doesnt reach the
requirements on top favs" before mt3 came.
I have to agree with DB there.
But I also kinda in agreement with Candy-chan as well. But since the highlighted
submissions are mostly pretty/acceptable, I have no complains about it.
I agree with Candy.. you cannot just give power to people who are unable to see
good art when it is right in front of them. Of course... I am not saying that
anyone on the staff has bad artistic taste, but that is what it will become
eventually if this goes on. Heck, even if it was the most talented waller ever
picking all of the wallpapers, it would still be unfair. 191,780 members, and
even more wallpapers, put on the weight of this ones[ssss] shoulders? Not
really. How about 10 people, how about the 5 people having to overlook the
wallpaper before it be highlighted? Just to make sure it is good.
Maybe those sort of people are something Minitokyo doesn't have right now, but
it is something that should seriously be considered even so.
EDIT: Stop posting before me fools >:/
Quote by DaybreakThat doesnt highlight a
work from a friend as a favor.
I don't think any of the highlights have been like that, or would get like that,
so far atleast. I hope that it doesn't turn into a system like that, alone that
would be a good enough reason for me to get-on-out-of-here.
Quote by bromithiaI agree with Candy..
you cannot just give power to people who are unable to see good art when it is
right in front of them. Of course... I am not saying that anyone on the staff
has bad artistic taste, but that is what it will become eventually if this goes
on. Heck, even if it was the most talented waller ever picking all of the
wallpapers, it would still be unfair. 191,780 members, and even more wallpapers,
put on the weight of this ones[ssss] shoulders? Not really. How about 10 people,
how about the 5 people having to overlook the wallpaper before it be
highlighted? Just to make sure it is good.
Maybe those sort of people are something Minitokyo doesn't have right now, but
it is something that should seriously be considered even so.
EDIT: Stop posting before me fools >:/
Quote by DaybreakThat doesnt highlight a
work from a friend as a favor.
I don't think any of the highlights have been like that, or would get like that,
so far atleast. I hope that it doesn't turn into a system like that, alone that
would be a good enough reason for me to
get-on-out-of-here.
Your point is just as same as Chopstickz, but longer. "lol"
To clarify, any time any moderator highlights anything, he or she will leave a
comment clearly explaining why that piece is highlighted. This comment is
required of the moderators to ensure that there is a clear understanding of the
reasons for highlighting any piece of work and to help prevent the perception of
highlighting friends.
Of course, moderators are human too, and art is certainly quite subjective. I
doubt that any system will make everybody happy because for each piece one
person finds ugly, there would be another who finds it beautiful, and vice
versa. But I think the comments the gallery directors leave when they highlight
works are fair and reasonable, and I have not personally noticed any friends
highlighting favoritism.
Quote by candy-chan
And I do not believe the mods are currently highlighting things because the
members are their friends. This isnt the main issue here
D:
Like I just said, I'm not questionning the partiality of the moderators. I do
not think your carification was necessary.
weird, i read your whole text and all i saw is "walls, walls,
walls"... what about doujinshis? they are also an important part of MT,
though more invisible... (and here, i don't mean vectors, i mean actual drawings
people did) and i also noticed that doujinshis are rarely highlighted.. which is
sad, coz' there are some great doujins... then again, i don't even know if there
is a mod that is a doujinshi artist
i also noticed something, the highlights remained the same for a very long time,
i know the mods are very busy, i understand that, that's why maybe this new
system wasn't for the best, but there are no perfect system... there will always
be some kind of subjectivity... whether it was the old system or this new one..
i guess having a team would be good, but it would just give everyone more work,
when lots of people already have more than enough to do
the thing i didn't see though is favoritism due to FL... what i do realize
though, is that people who have a mod on their FL probably have more chance of
seeing their work highlighted, after all, mods can't see the whole gallery
anymore than we can...
anyways, just thought i'd bring in my 2 cents... i don't mind the new system,
there could be improvement, but it can't be worst than the previous system where
all kind of walls made it to the highlights, due to FL whoring, and especially
ecchi walls
I indeed did not talk about doujins because I do not browse that category that
much and consequantly have not much to say about them. But if you're interested
you could probably bring this aspect on the table by a more lenghted
observation/analysis.
Quote: they are also an important
part of MT, though more invisible...
That makes no sence.
It cannot be important if unnoticed. Doujins are important to MT I agree, but
the main heart is, frankly, anime wallpapers.
unnoticed... depends by who, i personnally tend to look more at doujins than
walls...
yes, walls are definitely more important, that's not the point, after all, this
is why MT was created...
what i meant by more invisible is only walls are being advertized through the
highlights... and if a doujin makes it up, as you said, it's usually a vector...
but go see artists pages like toujin1, pegassuss, SilentNymph and oh-so-many
more, there are great doujinshi artists on MT but we almost never see their art
appear on the main page, which i find a little sad... maybe that's just me
though
Quote by DayBreakSo im thinking one the
mods would think "Ah what the heck, no other mods aren't on.*clicks to move
it to highlight* < thats just an example.
Now this is just not true ^^ ..nor is the thing about mods highlighting because
it's a friend's work. As far as I know, mods consult each other, most likely the
ones who are responsible for moderating the wallpapers section (or vectors, if
the potential highlight is a vector), before actually going through with a
highlight.
Quote by candy-chanBut the fact that
art pieces, if we can call wallpapers that, are chosen by mods who have probably
not the best eye for art is deplorable.
I can't lie and say I agree with all the highlighted items, but that is not
grounds for doubting the mods' ability for judgment.. But I do think those who
highlight a gallery item should put more effort in explaining in further detail
why it is being highlighted.
And on doujinshi.. Ayamael has a point. MT is an anime art community - doujinshi
is just as much of a form of anime art as wallpapers, though we do have many
more walls than doujins. And doujins don't get enough attention they deserve.
The time and effort required to achieve virtuosity in producing good (as in original, not drawing off an image
or imitating other artists) doujins can be just as long/much as it would be for
walls, perhaps even longer. And the reason why they're more 'invisible' than
walls is probably because, frankly, walls are nicer to look at as they can be
much more visually stimulating, and its usually easier to see the lack of polish
in a doujin.
Not to be harsh, but how can this vector art be considered
for being highlighted. It just baffles me.
The curves are uneven and have sharp edges, pixellation on the black lines, and
the back is just plain white. It's doesn't look like vector art but more like
tracing from a scan. And considering the size, it's more appropriate for it to
be considered a re-CGed scan.
I believe the most important thing would be that the reason for being
highlighted shouldn't be just a simple single or two sentence but should cover
other aspects like effort, creativeness, background planning/composition, and
skill as well. The mod highlighting a work should show passion in why he/she
highlighted it and not just make it seem like he did it just for the sake of
highlighting. A good example would be to look at all the highlighted wallpapers in
Animepaper. You can clearly feel the excitement when the mod/admins choose their
Highlights. Even if the explainations are short, there's clearly enough
enthusiasm in it to entice others to agree with the choice. It's all about
marketing.
At least that would put all doubts regarding the selection of a particular work
to rest.
PS: The mod's reason for highlighting a work should not be placed among the
other posts. It would be too unnoticeable.
Quote by Ayamaelunnoticed... depends by
who, i personnally tend to look more at doujins than walls...
yes, walls are definitely more important, that's not the point, after all, this
is why MT was created...
what i meant by more invisible is only walls are being advertized through the
highlights... and if a doujin makes it up, as you said, it's usually a vector...
but go see artists pages like toujin1, pegassuss, SilentNymph and oh-so-many
more, there are great doujinshi artists on MT but we almost never see their art
appear on the main page, which i find a little sad... maybe that's just me
though
I agree with Ayamae. As an artist myself, I do find that wallpapers have more
attention and I'd say it's a little...unfair? What about us artists ;___; It's
like...super rare to have a doujin as highlighted or top fav that is not a vector. And I do agree that vectors
are just a technique of cleaning up a
scan. It's not really yours if you don't do anything about it. yes, you do need
some skill to vector something, but not doing anything else to it isn't
really...art.
People don't really look at the doujins out there. There are so many great
artists that people don't know about all because they are focused on wallpapers
Maybe wallpapers are more popular and useful, but I think doujinshis should have
the same umm....well I can't think of the word right now, but I hope you guys
get what I mean.
Well, I've already talked about this "unequality" between doujin and
wallpapers several times. I kind of gave up because no one listened or
cared.
changes have been made to the highlighting system just now. elite members and
higher ranked members can propose items for highlighting, and mods and higher
ranked can highlight the proposed items.
merged: 11-25-2005 ~ 06:21am
and the reason is stated under the description
I would like to open a public debate about the new highlighting system on MT3.
The situation:
I have to say I was extremely happy about this new system when MT3 first arrived. I was assured by my close "in power" friends that artworks would be wisely chosen and that Finally walls could be featured because they were GOOD and deserved a place at the front page. But what I have been seeing these days is quite the contrary. Wallpapers are most of the time not that great, or look good but do not show any sign of work (i.e. cropped scans and the likes)
Also, I find riddiculous that vectors that only RECG original scans are highlighted. Yes, they can be very good and all, but vectoring a scan without altering it is not art, but only a cleaning technique. Are scans highlighted? no, and I hope they never will be. Isn't highlighting a concept reserved to good artworks? ARTworks?
In other words: More than half of the picked submissions do not deserve their place.
The problem:
Probably many of us do not realise that right now, only ONE OR TWO moderators have the power to highlight anime wallpapers, in a community that holds more than 191 780 members. Now I know MiniTokyo is not a democracy, but somewhere I think the fact that one of the most important part of the site is decided by only two moderators is obsolete. Not only this, but nowadays active MT mods are not what they used to be. I am of course not saying that they are not doing their job or are bad moderators, but that they simply are not experienced wallpaper artists. I am myself friend with some of them and have absolutely nothing to say about their partiality about rips and scan quality, etc. But the fact that art pieces, if we can call wallpapers that, are chosen by mods who have probably not the best eye for art is deplorable. Now let's compare with other art communities I am familiar with and that have the same system. AnimePaper has a highlight system that is basically the same as ours, allthough there is only one highlight at a time. The thing that makes it work there is that every highlight is chosen correctly and for acceptable reasons like originality, beauty and visible hard work. The majority of AP's moderators are experienced and good wallers. Another example is the very known DeviantArt monster ( as in big place, not horrible). Their system is of course adapted to a bigger scale. But the Daily Deviations can be suggested by members and are therefore, probably closer to the public opinion. The Deviations are also chosen rightly amongst a multitude of great pieces.
The Solution?
I have of course none that is perfect and could be applied right away. But slapping a big question like this demands an answer. I beleive that the highlighting system can work, I truly do. But for that MiniTokyo has to change. For once, experienced wallpaper artists like I've said before could be chosen to pick the highilghts. Not only this but they should be more than two for the whole anime wallpapers section, and should have some sort of meeting to accept the highlights together. Also, we could create a new category of members who would be suggesting works to the highlights, or if it's too much trouble have the Elite members do it. With this, the choosing would be quite fairer in my opinion, than how it is right now.
The Debate..
now it's up to the MT members to ask themselves what system do they want, and how they want it to be organised. Afterwards the people in power can make an enlightened decision about this. So I'm asking you: What do you truly think of this situation?
I would like to add the fact that I was asked by more than one to start the thread, consequently I am not the only one thinking about this, maybe it should be time for "us" to type out loud our thoughts
I thought a mod selects a wall to be highligthed then a certain number of mods approve before it's actually posted.
Not all mods are active.
So im thinking one the mods would think "Ah what the heck, no other mods aren't on.*clicks to move it to highlight* < thats just an example.
I vote for NON-BIASED indiviual who has alot experience as an artist to pick the highlights.
I.E That doesnt highlight a work from a friend as a favor.
When a mod highlights a wall, there should be something to identify which mod highlighted it so we can at least see whose doing the work.
I don't think you could just pick experienced artists to pick highlights since it'd be hard to make it fair. Though i might be wrong, seems like it might create more problems with fairness, but oh well, lets the dutch god decide :P
Fairness? dont start, haha.
All of us had to bear of looking at "Walls that doesnt reach the requirements on top favs" before mt3 came.
Now, you tell me which is fair, and which isnt! heh.
I don't see why wallers that have the eye would make it harder not to be partial. Partiality is about the individual, not his/her "class". A mod that doesnt wall can choose only submissions from his/her friends just as an artist could.
And I do not believe the mods are currently highlighting things because the members are their friends. This is nt the main issue here D:
I have to agree with DB there.
But I also kinda in agreement with Candy-chan as well. But since the highlighted submissions are mostly pretty/acceptable, I have no complains about it.
Yeah as of the highlights... its quite acceptable now these days.
I agree with Candy.. you cannot just give power to people who are unable to see good art when it is right in front of them. Of course... I am not saying that anyone on the staff has bad artistic taste, but that is what it will become eventually if this goes on. Heck, even if it was the most talented waller ever picking all of the wallpapers, it would still be unfair. 191,780 members, and even more wallpapers, put on the weight of this ones[ssss] shoulders? Not really. How about 10 people, how about the 5 people having to overlook the wallpaper before it be highlighted? Just to make sure it is good.
Maybe those sort of people are something Minitokyo doesn't have right now, but it is something that should seriously be considered even so.
EDIT: Stop posting before me fools >:/
I don't think any of the highlights have been like that, or would get like that, so far atleast. I hope that it doesn't turn into a system like that, alone that would be a good enough reason for me to get-on-out-of-here.
Your point is just as same as Chopstickz, but longer. "lol"
To clarify, any time any moderator highlights anything, he or she will leave a comment clearly explaining why that piece is highlighted. This comment is required of the moderators to ensure that there is a clear understanding of the reasons for highlighting any piece of work and to help prevent the perception of highlighting friends.
Of course, moderators are human too, and art is certainly quite subjective. I doubt that any system will make everybody happy because for each piece one person finds ugly, there would be another who finds it beautiful, and vice versa. But I think the comments the gallery directors leave when they highlight works are fair and reasonable, and I have not personally noticed any friends highlighting favoritism.
Like I just said, I'm not questionning the partiality of the moderators. I do not think your carification was necessary.
whatever, it good it will be highlighting, that all.
weird, i read your whole text and all i saw is "walls, walls, walls"... what about doujinshis? they are also an important part of MT, though more invisible... (and here, i don't mean vectors, i mean actual drawings people did) and i also noticed that doujinshis are rarely highlighted.. which is sad, coz' there are some great doujins... then again, i don't even know if there is a mod that is a doujinshi artist
i also noticed something, the highlights remained the same for a very long time, i know the mods are very busy, i understand that, that's why maybe this new system wasn't for the best, but there are no perfect system... there will always be some kind of subjectivity... whether it was the old system or this new one.. i guess having a team would be good, but it would just give everyone more work, when lots of people already have more than enough to do
the thing i didn't see though is favoritism due to FL... what i do realize though, is that people who have a mod on their FL probably have more chance of seeing their work highlighted, after all, mods can't see the whole gallery anymore than we can...
anyways, just thought i'd bring in my 2 cents... i don't mind the new system, there could be improvement, but it can't be worst than the previous system where all kind of walls made it to the highlights, due to FL whoring, and especially ecchi walls
I indeed did not talk about doujins because I do not browse that category that much and consequantly have not much to say about them. But if you're interested you could probably bring this aspect on the table by a more lenghted observation/analysis.
That makes no sence. It cannot be important if unnoticed. Doujins are important to MT I agree, but the main heart is, frankly, anime wallpapers.
unnoticed... depends by who, i personnally tend to look more at doujins than walls...
yes, walls are definitely more important, that's not the point, after all, this is why MT was created...
what i meant by more invisible is only walls are being advertized through the highlights... and if a doujin makes it up, as you said, it's usually a vector... but go see artists pages like toujin1, pegassuss, SilentNymph and oh-so-many more, there are great doujinshi artists on MT but we almost never see their art appear on the main page, which i find a little sad... maybe that's just me though
No I agree copletely with you. Maybe the highlights could help the doujin section.
Now this is just not true ^^ ..nor is the thing about mods highlighting because it's a friend's work. As far as I know, mods consult each other, most likely the ones who are responsible for moderating the wallpapers section (or vectors, if the potential highlight is a vector), before actually going through with a highlight.
I can't lie and say I agree with all the highlighted items, but that is not grounds for doubting the mods' ability for judgment.. But I do think those who highlight a gallery item should put more effort in explaining in further detail why it is being highlighted.
And on doujinshi.. Ayamael has a point. MT is an anime art community - doujinshi is just as much of a form of anime art as wallpapers, though we do have many more walls than doujins. And doujins don't get enough attention they deserve. The time and effort required to achieve virtuosity in producing good (as in original, not drawing off an image or imitating other artists) doujins can be just as long/much as it would be for walls, perhaps even longer. And the reason why they're more 'invisible' than walls is probably because, frankly, walls are nicer to look at as they can be much more visually stimulating, and its usually easier to see the lack of polish in a doujin.
Not to be harsh, but how can this vector art be considered for being highlighted. It just baffles me.
The curves are uneven and have sharp edges, pixellation on the black lines, and the back is just plain white. It's doesn't look like vector art but more like tracing from a scan. And considering the size, it's more appropriate for it to be considered a re-CGed scan.
I believe the most important thing would be that the reason for being highlighted shouldn't be just a simple single or two sentence but should cover other aspects like effort, creativeness, background planning/composition, and skill as well. The mod highlighting a work should show passion in why he/she highlighted it and not just make it seem like he did it just for the sake of highlighting. A good example would be to look at all the highlighted wallpapers in Animepaper. You can clearly feel the excitement when the mod/admins choose their Highlights. Even if the explainations are short, there's clearly enough enthusiasm in it to entice others to agree with the choice. It's all about marketing.
At least that would put all doubts regarding the selection of a particular work to rest.
PS: The mod's reason for highlighting a work should not be placed among the other posts. It would be too unnoticeable.
Double standards are bound to happen no matter how good the system is, my friend.
I agree with Ayamae. As an artist myself, I do find that wallpapers have more attention and I'd say it's a little...unfair? What about us artists ;___; It's like...super rare to have a doujin as highlighted or top fav that is not a vector. And I do agree that vectors are just a technique of cleaning up a scan. It's not really yours if you don't do anything about it. yes, you do need some skill to vector something, but not doing anything else to it isn't really...art.
People don't really look at the doujins out there. There are so many great artists that people don't know about all because they are focused on wallpapers
Maybe wallpapers are more popular and useful, but I think doujinshis should have
the same umm....well I can't think of the word right now, but I hope you guys
get what I mean.
Well, I've already talked about this "unequality" between doujin and wallpapers several times. I kind of gave up because no one listened or cared.
That's my opinion.
-Pandie
Meh, the hair isnt smooth at all.
Nor does the outlines meet in each other on some parts... @_@
i seen way better recent vectors than this
changes have been made to the highlighting system just now. elite members and higher ranked members can propose items for highlighting, and mods and higher ranked can highlight the proposed items.
merged: 11-25-2005 ~ 06:21am
and the reason is stated under the description
great, thanks sheqel for supporting.
now i hope true art can be appreciated on a level where everybody gets to share their views and equality.