Notice: Someone felt like posting in thread, even though it was 1.5 years old,
so please, don't post here. Just let it die and stay dead. That means no posting here, at all!
I had thought about this along time ago, "Could God make a hamburger so
hot, that it could not eat it?"
For some reason I thought about it again a yesterday and I came upon this
conclusion: An omnipotent being's existence would paradoxical. It could do
anything imaginable.
However, this would include being able to overcome itself. But since it is
omnipotent it could overcome whatever means the being tried to overcome itself,
but that would not be possible since that would be contradictory to its ability
to be omnipotent. And if wasn't able to overcome this, that would also be
contradictory to its omnipotency. Thus creating a paradox. Either way the being
is proven to be non-omnipotent. The only answer would be that an omnipotent
being does not exist and cannot exist. So my question is, how can this be
explained? Does this disprove an omnipotent God?
Edit: Wow, I thought I worded this badly. Looks like I did a decent job.
-2006-6-17
Edit 2: Huh, you're right me from a year ago. It's not important though since
obviously God isn't supposed to be omnipotent. -2007-07-23
That's an interesting question. However, being God, I don't think he needs to
eat. Wonder if He even has a mouth or stomach since he doesn't have to sustain a
physical bod.
being infinitely wise, i dont think he would need to overcome himself, thus
eliminating the paradox. I mean, why would god be stupid enough to risk
destroying or disabling himself.
I think that should God exist he would be soooo powerful that he could make
logical paradoxes be true. For example, he could make a spherical cube or even
an invisible pink unicorn. His power is so great that even things that defy the
laws of physics and reality can be done by God. That is the traditional theistic
argument to this paradox theory. Of course being atheist I cannot believe in a
entity that makes logical paradoxes true because that defies reason.
Quote by ReleasEThat's an interesting
question. However, being God, I don't think he needs to eat. Wonder if He even
has a mouth or stomach since he doesn't have to sustain a physical
bod.
You get the concept, don't you...? =P
Quote by PhoenixNoxbeing infinitely
wise, i dont think he would need to overcome himself, thus eliminating the
paradox. I mean, why would god be stupid enough to risk destroying or disabling
himself.
If God were both omnipotent and omniscient then God would know what the result
of an omnipotent being trying to overcome itself would be. And because it is
omnipotent that would still leave that possibility. And the possibility of a
paradox cannot exist, according to reasoning, atleast.
Quote by CyberDragoonI think that
should God exist he would be soooo powerful that he could make logical paradoxes
be true. For example, he could make a spherical cube or even an invisible pink
unicorn. His power is so great that even things that defy the laws of physics
and reality can be done by God. That is the traditional theistic argument to
this paradox theory. Of course being atheist I cannot believe in a entity that
makes logical paradoxes true because that defies reason.
The problem with this (besides the fact that they are stating that reasoning is
flawed) is that then I could say to the theist that their reasoning for
believing in God could also be flawed if human reasoning could be
flawed.
Quote by jasaiyajinwhy ask why? it
only wastes your time!
We can't do anything else more useful then find answers to questions, except for
finding answers.
Such questions are meaningless, because onmipotence is not a well-defined
concept, it's an extension of ideas which only make sense in the presence of
severe limitations.
I mean, you could always say "yes he could, it would just mean destroying
his own omnipotence." But then, what does it mean ultimately do be able to
do something but be such a being which would never do it? Basically if you start
getting what look like paradoxes, you're probably thinking about something in a
way that doesn't really make sense.
Of course, most gods of legend are not omnipotent, they're just powerful.
The omnipotence atribute of God is not to do nonsense things. God made us very
similar to him with a great capacities like exploring, undestanding, learning
and creating. But one of the things that WE DON'T LIKE TO HEAR is that really
mysterious thing: why God has rules even to Himself for all things? So, that is
something that we cannot explain but we know that is logic. If I am a total
stranger and hit the door of your house and tell you that I want to take all
that is yours, because I feel like it and I want to kill you because I feel like
it, you will say that I'm nuts, but believe me, will not be because there is a
law that tells me that I cannot do it, or a law that says that you can kick me
out. Before laws there is something inside you that tells you "Hey wait a
minute these are my belongings, this is my life, who said you can do whatever
you want?". Then again been that I am a human been with all capacity and my
limit is the sky, why do I cannot do whatever I want? Simple, rules... been able
to be smart does not mean or justify my to be an idiot. So... going back to the
subject. Why God been so poweful needs to do nonsense stuff, and if you are not
impress with all He has done so far... then what kind of human are you? I rest
my case....
Homer Simpson asked the same question to Ned Flanders (except it was a burito).
Ned Flanders could not answer the question either.
To answer your question. God can not create something that is boyound his own
ability. No matter how hot the hamburger will get he will be able to consume it.
God adapts to his own ability, no matter how his powers exceed him he adapts
that same instant. There is no limit to what he can create and be able to handle
the creations.
Quote by CyberDragoonBUt if God is
able to consume it then how does he ever make a hamburger that is too hot for
him to eat?
God can not make a hamburger so hot that even he couldn't eat it. The moment he
makes the hamburger hot enough that same moment he is able to eat
it.
i have been lurking, all i ask is what is your evidence for such a statement,
are u stating that God can be generalize for making what he makes because he
can?
Or are you simply speculating that God, like humans, think like us, and will
make the hamburger just right for that particular heat.
Of course He can; He is omnipotent. However, He never would, because to make
such a mistake would be a mistake. ...And God is perfect, so... ...He never has,
never will.
So you saying it's impossible for him to make a food item so hot that he could
not eat it because it is a mistake for him to do so? Thus no matter how powerful
he will never be able to make a mistake which means he cannot be all powerful
because he should be able to do anything include make mistakes?
I do not think you people understand what I am saying.
Let me put it this way. Lets say you are able to lift 100 lbs. That is your
maximum, you can't lift no more. Then you decide to lift 150 lbs. That moment
you are trying to lift the 150 lbs. you gain the ability to do so. Your limit
increases the second it is required. Making it impossible to reach your limits.
Thus if it is impossible to reach your limit because of that God could not ever
reach his limits. Therefore God could not create a situation where he reached
his limits and proves his nonexistence.
Quote by CyberDragoonThus if it is
impossible to reach your limit because of that God could not ever reach his
limits. Therefore God could not create a situation where he reached his limits
and proves his nonexistence.
It can go both ways. It can be said that God has no limit to his ability. Either
way it depends whether God or a person wants to exceed the limitation or not.
Well, usualy is Mother Nature who makes the food, in that case, She made on
porpose to hurt God... who's her half and good part.
Mother Nature rocks! she's so evil, beautiful and perfect
Well, God is also Beautiful and perfect, but, on the other hand, He's good.
so... if God get burned eating that hamburger, it as because of Mother Nature
simple god can overcome himself but thats it he knows everything so nothing else
can hurt him unless he purposly falls into a trap to do something like when zeus
fell into the titans trap to lure his son hercules to defeat them saying they
could only be defeated by the combined forces of a human and a god attacking at
once (hint demi-god is both like half and half) well unless you go with the nors
mytholgy where every good had a counter part that was pure evil compared to
their good and they both will destroy each other in ragnorok
so basicaly he can overcome himself but thats aboput it something might rise up
and stub his toe but he could choose to stub his toe to stop himself from being
shoot. but if you go back into greek mytholgy then you could say that anything
in the omnipoint would be able to kill him as if you soak an iteam inthe blood
of eather a god or a higher form demi-god(the ones that look like weird
creatures not humans)
then your arows would become extreanly poisones and be able to kill a demi or
make a full god mortal but that wouldn't realy be overtakeing but knoching out
so then he could be over come by something else but that isn't the question at
hand
*SUMMARY* GOD can over take himself or fall into a trap onpurpose wich probly
wouldn't kill him, he can be destroyed by a nemisi that is exactly as stong as
him (an evil counter-part), he can't be over come by an othe omi point being
unless it was greater than or equal to his power, and finaly he could be knoched
out of the omni point or at least weakened by a omni point being as to change
the entire facts of the problem causeing the third ru;e to be come almost
absoulute unless the new foe is some type of accended mortal
true... true..... why should gods always be omnipotent.....
we have other words for the term "gods" like "higher beings"
or "higher entity" or some others following other cultures and
religions.....
but it is interesting when it comes to the idea of an omnipotent god.....or
higher being.... it is human nature to seek perfectness and
"perfectness" refer to omnipotent which is having no limits.... so one
can be perfectly evil or perfectly good or perfectly anything in a sense.... and
having no limitations usually means no certain pattern or rules that it will
have to follow... but that will eliminate desire or motives to change or
exist.... so in the end..... an omnipotent god will not exist and even if it
exist..... it wont have any reactions to watsoever stuff happening to it.....
unless we want to talk about separating the essence of omnipotency which is
another subject.....
so in another word.... the god(s) (if one or many do exist) who create or
manage the world or nature will not be omnipotent orcannot be omnipotent coz
everything they do will require a motive and must abide by the rule of time and
space.....
to sum it up: the idea of amnipotence is impossible however you look at it. But
i think (even as an atheist) that it goes too far to say with this we have the
absoloute proof for gods nonexistance.
It just shows that the church is talking shit and making things up as they want
it to be (once again), or that we just dont understand how it really works (in
case it would be true).
But somehow i think its funny how some believers here talk about god as if theyd
know him 100% and as if he would be their old buddy...they give detailed
information like it would be fact, about something every believer have a
different idea about.
but funny statements that come from believers is nothin new for meh...
Zax, if God was omnipotent it would not be able to become any better. Ergo, God
could not overcome itself because it was already perfect. If your argument was
correct that would be saying that God isn't as omnipotent as God could be. One
of the many flaws with this idea is that God could not become omnipotent because
there would still be room for improvement. Omnipotence is an absolute and cannot
be increased. Your logic is severely flawed.
CyberDragoon, this merely disproves the existence of an omnipotent God, not a
God. Atleast based on our ability to comprehend the truth, which we can only
assume to be correct.
Mephisto2k, I agree, this does not disprove the existence of a God(s) (see note
to CyberDragoon).
Archer79, that does not remove the possibility. If it is possible there is an
answer. Therefore just by the existence of an omnipotent being there in lies the
possibility of it overcoming itself. And since God is supposeadly omniscient,
too, it would know the result of such a paradox (also showing that God couldn't
be omniscient because then it would know how to cause paradoxes and the result
of such paradoxes, but paradoxes are an
impossibilityâ€ thus no being can be
omniscient).
Blueheart and beethoven, umm... your posts made close to no sense.
Notice: Someone felt like posting in thread, even though it was 1.5 years old, so please, don't post here. Just let it die and stay dead. That means no posting here, at all!
I had thought about this along time ago, "Could God make a hamburger so hot, that it could not eat it?"
For some reason I thought about it again a yesterday and I came upon this conclusion: An omnipotent being's existence would paradoxical. It could do anything imaginable.
However, this would include being able to overcome itself. But since it is omnipotent it could overcome whatever means the being tried to overcome itself, but that would not be possible since that would be contradictory to its ability to be omnipotent. And if wasn't able to overcome this, that would also be contradictory to its omnipotency. Thus creating a paradox. Either way the being is proven to be non-omnipotent. The only answer would be that an omnipotent being does not exist and cannot exist. So my question is, how can this be explained? Does this disprove an omnipotent God?
Edit: Wow, I thought I worded this badly. Looks like I did a decent job. -2006-6-17
Edit 2: Huh, you're right me from a year ago. It's not important though since obviously God isn't supposed to be omnipotent. -2007-07-23
no
Why would that be?
That's an interesting question. However, being God, I don't think he needs to eat. Wonder if He even has a mouth or stomach since he doesn't have to sustain a physical bod.
being infinitely wise, i dont think he would need to overcome himself, thus eliminating the paradox. I mean, why would god be stupid enough to risk destroying or disabling himself.
I think that should God exist he would be soooo powerful that he could make logical paradoxes be true. For example, he could make a spherical cube or even an invisible pink unicorn. His power is so great that even things that defy the laws of physics and reality can be done by God. That is the traditional theistic argument to this paradox theory. Of course being atheist I cannot believe in a entity that makes logical paradoxes true because that defies reason.
why ask why? it only wastes your time!
You get the concept, don't you...? =P
If God were both omnipotent and omniscient then God would know what the result of an omnipotent being trying to overcome itself would be. And because it is omnipotent that would still leave that possibility. And the possibility of a paradox cannot exist, according to reasoning, atleast.
The problem with this (besides the fact that they are stating that reasoning is flawed) is that then I could say to the theist that their reasoning for believing in God could also be flawed if human reasoning could be flawed.
We can't do anything else more useful then find answers to questions, except for finding answers.
Such questions are meaningless, because onmipotence is not a well-defined concept, it's an extension of ideas which only make sense in the presence of severe limitations.
I mean, you could always say "yes he could, it would just mean destroying his own omnipotence." But then, what does it mean ultimately do be able to do something but be such a being which would never do it? Basically if you start getting what look like paradoxes, you're probably thinking about something in a way that doesn't really make sense.
Of course, most gods of legend are not omnipotent, they're just powerful.
The omnipotence atribute of God is not to do nonsense things. God made us very similar to him with a great capacities like exploring, undestanding, learning and creating. But one of the things that WE DON'T LIKE TO HEAR is that really mysterious thing: why God has rules even to Himself for all things? So, that is something that we cannot explain but we know that is logic. If I am a total stranger and hit the door of your house and tell you that I want to take all that is yours, because I feel like it and I want to kill you because I feel like it, you will say that I'm nuts, but believe me, will not be because there is a law that tells me that I cannot do it, or a law that says that you can kick me out. Before laws there is something inside you that tells you "Hey wait a minute these are my belongings, this is my life, who said you can do whatever you want?". Then again been that I am a human been with all capacity and my limit is the sky, why do I cannot do whatever I want? Simple, rules... been able to be smart does not mean or justify my to be an idiot. So... going back to the subject. Why God been so poweful needs to do nonsense stuff, and if you are not impress with all He has done so far... then what kind of human are you? I rest my case....
Homer Simpson asked the same question to Ned Flanders (except it was a burito). Ned Flanders could not answer the question either.
To answer your question. God can not create something that is boyound his own ability. No matter how hot the hamburger will get he will be able to consume it. God adapts to his own ability, no matter how his powers exceed him he adapts that same instant. There is no limit to what he can create and be able to handle the creations.
BUt if God is able to consume it then how does he ever make a hamburger that is too hot for him to eat?
God can not make a hamburger so hot that even he couldn't eat it. The moment he makes the hamburger hot enough that same moment he is able to eat it.
i have been lurking, all i ask is what is your evidence for such a statement, are u stating that God can be generalize for making what he makes because he can?
Or are you simply speculating that God, like humans, think like us, and will make the hamburger just right for that particular heat.
Of course He can; He is omnipotent. However, He never would, because to make such a mistake would be a mistake. ...And God is perfect, so... ...He never has, never will.
So you saying it's impossible for him to make a food item so hot that he could not eat it because it is a mistake for him to do so? Thus no matter how powerful he will never be able to make a mistake which means he cannot be all powerful because he should be able to do anything include make mistakes?
I am cunfuzzled.
I do not think you people understand what I am saying.
Let me put it this way. Lets say you are able to lift 100 lbs. That is your maximum, you can't lift no more. Then you decide to lift 150 lbs. That moment you are trying to lift the 150 lbs. you gain the ability to do so. Your limit increases the second it is required. Making it impossible to reach your limits.
Thus if it is impossible to reach your limit because of that God could not ever reach his limits. Therefore God could not create a situation where he reached his limits and proves his nonexistence.
It can go both ways. It can be said that God has no limit to his ability. Either way it depends whether God or a person wants to exceed the limitation or not.
Well, usualy is Mother Nature who makes the food, in that case, She made on porpose to hurt God... who's her half and good part.
Mother Nature rocks! she's so evil, beautiful and perfect
Well, God is also Beautiful and perfect, but, on the other hand, He's good.
so... if God get burned eating that hamburger, it as because of Mother Nature
simple god can overcome himself but thats it he knows everything so nothing else can hurt him unless he purposly falls into a trap to do something like when zeus fell into the titans trap to lure his son hercules to defeat them saying they could only be defeated by the combined forces of a human and a god attacking at once (hint demi-god is both like half and half) well unless you go with the nors mytholgy where every good had a counter part that was pure evil compared to their good and they both will destroy each other in ragnorok
so basicaly he can overcome himself but thats aboput it something might rise up and stub his toe but he could choose to stub his toe to stop himself from being shoot. but if you go back into greek mytholgy then you could say that anything in the omnipoint would be able to kill him as if you soak an iteam inthe blood of eather a god or a higher form demi-god(the ones that look like weird creatures not humans)
then your arows would become extreanly poisones and be able to kill a demi or make a full god mortal but that wouldn't realy be overtakeing but knoching out so then he could be over come by something else but that isn't the question at hand
*SUMMARY* GOD can over take himself or fall into a trap onpurpose wich probly wouldn't kill him, he can be destroyed by a nemisi that is exactly as stong as him (an evil counter-part), he can't be over come by an othe omi point being unless it was greater than or equal to his power, and finaly he could be knoched out of the omni point or at least weakened by a omni point being as to change the entire facts of the problem causeing the third ru;e to be come almost absoulute unless the new foe is some type of accended mortal
true... true..... why should gods always be omnipotent.....
we have other words for the term "gods" like "higher beings" or "higher entity" or some others following other cultures and religions.....
but it is interesting when it comes to the idea of an omnipotent god.....or higher being.... it is human nature to seek perfectness and "perfectness" refer to omnipotent which is having no limits.... so one can be perfectly evil or perfectly good or perfectly anything in a sense.... and having no limitations usually means no certain pattern or rules that it will have to follow... but that will eliminate desire or motives to change or exist.... so in the end..... an omnipotent god will not exist and even if it exist..... it wont have any reactions to watsoever stuff happening to it..... unless we want to talk about separating the essence of omnipotency which is another subject.....
so in another word.... the god(s) (if one or many do exist) who create or manage the world or nature will not be omnipotent orcannot be omnipotent coz everything they do will require a motive and must abide by the rule of time and space.....
my 20 cents
to sum it up: the idea of amnipotence is impossible however you look at it. But i think (even as an atheist) that it goes too far to say with this we have the absoloute proof for gods nonexistance.
It just shows that the church is talking shit and making things up as they want it to be (once again), or that we just dont understand how it really works (in case it would be true).
But somehow i think its funny how some believers here talk about god as if theyd know him 100% and as if he would be their old buddy...they give detailed information like it would be fact, about something every believer have a different idea about.
but funny statements that come from believers is nothin new for meh...
Zax, if God was omnipotent it would not be able to become any better. Ergo, God could not overcome itself because it was already perfect. If your argument was correct that would be saying that God isn't as omnipotent as God could be. One of the many flaws with this idea is that God could not become omnipotent because there would still be room for improvement. Omnipotence is an absolute and cannot be increased. Your logic is severely flawed.
CyberDragoon, this merely disproves the existence of an omnipotent God, not a God. Atleast based on our ability to comprehend the truth, which we can only assume to be correct.
Mephisto2k, I agree, this does not disprove the existence of a God(s) (see note to CyberDragoon).
Archer79, that does not remove the possibility. If it is possible there is an answer. Therefore just by the existence of an omnipotent being there in lies the possibility of it overcoming itself. And since God is supposeadly omniscient, too, it would know the result of such a paradox (also showing that God couldn't be omniscient because then it would know how to cause paradoxes and the result of such paradoxes, but paradoxes are an impossibilityâ€ thus no being can be omniscient).
Blueheart and beethoven, umm... your posts made close to no sense.