Ok.... got fed up lately about an argument... decide to post it here
Now... as we all know about the Christian religion is that they all love their
god and also believe in their god...
now i am going to challenge it with psychology...
So 1st question to all Christians....
1. do you LOVE and BELIEVE in your GOD?
if yes... proceed
2. why do you say yes in the 1st question...?
Choice:
1. izzit becoz He is powerful?
2. or izzit because by believing in Him and loving Him will bring you to
Heaven?
3. because He helps you spiritually in your daily life?
4. you believe in Him because you believe he can improve your life?
now choose one of the choice that suited you best....which the choices i think
are all the answer i summed up from alll the variations i got fromt he
argument...
Now... for those who answer yes for (1) & (2).... prove your love...
-Will you be willing to go to Hell eternally for God? in the condition that
there will be no heaven for you eternally?
I found some Christians saying that God will bring them back from Hell to
Heaven... but wat if for eternal? and they are struck speechless....
For (3) & (4)... did you really read ad understand the bible and use your
own interpretation on it? or you just listen to wat ppl say and think that it is
good....?
I found most of them not understanding anything at all... and just follow
blindly wat other ppl say....
So coming up to the topic....(sry have to use Christian's faith as an example
but got more understanding for it than other religions)
how do you believe? blind or true?..... hope to get positive arguments and
comments, and also very constructive replys
I grew up in a Southern Baptist upbringing, but I was also told to find my
beliefs myself. I have ended up being Agnostic. For those that don't know what
that means its simply that I don't believe in anything that can't be proven. If
you can prove to me that there is a God, then I will believe it, but until then
I will seek out the truth. My reason behind this is that I was kind of tired of
not being able to live the way I want to and be proud of myself and I was tired
of being told that feeling good was bad.
How many times do I hear someone after a hard time say "I was able to do it
because of God?" My thing is what about me? Wasn't I the one that got
through the hard times? Wasn't it me who studied for that test and passed it? It
wasn't God taking that test for me, it was me... I did it. I think many believe
this is because it is hard to believe that humans may just be the most powerful
being. We have bombs that could end civilization as we know it, and knowing that
scares the hell out of a lot of us. But if we believe that there is someone more
powerful, it takes the pressure off of our shoulders. God gave me the strength
to do it, and since he did it makes sense.
Also I tend to believe that many just want to believe so that death has a
justification. If there is heaven after death, then there is no need to fear it.
Being able to tell a child that their grandmother has gone to a better place is
easier than telling them she is in the ground. As of right now I believe once
you are dead, its simply game over. Dirt nap-o-rama... nothing more.
And thats my two cents. Commence the rock throwing.
I think to honestly believe in any religion, there has to be a very profound
experience. Myself and shoujoboy probably have not experienced such an eye
opening event; thus, we continue to question our world around us and make use of
the knowledge that the tree has bestowed upon us.
It's funny, but I remember the implicit declaration that worldly knowledge does
not fit the criteria for faith... meaning, that faith is not provable by science
one bit... unless you throw in stuff like statistics and other approximation
tools in the mix.
Hmph. There's been a study about this. They made a MIT scan to a buddhist monk
when he's medetating. They found his mind actually kind of... gains a large of
substance that is used in perception..... Meaning he could actually feel of
other people around him without relying on his ears,sight,feeling....
In other words, he could sense a powerful being through the boundaries of our
dimension..... That must be the reason why alot of ancient people started their
religions. Meditators felt the presence of an 'etereal' being through the wall
of our universe.
Nice output Izaak.... however its more toward a human perspective when it comes
to religion.... like Buddhism is all about getting closer to this etereal
being.... Christians and Islam and alot of religions tends to worship this
etereal being.... Taoism analyze the nature of this being and use it on the
world(and also worship it)....
I personally think that all religion is a human-perspective based thing and to
really believe is to go sense it.... not follow through the
"perspective" part... That is my true believe.... how to sense it?
this s up to ourselves to "feel".....any comments?
As I raise as a Christian (Catholic), i do believe in GOD...man there's only one
god...
I believe in God coz i've the experience of His blessing...if u doubt it it's up
to u.
And,...what do U mean by this?:
--Will you be willing to go to Hell eternally for God? in the condition that
there will be no heaven for you eternally? ---
What for?...it's ridiculous thought u have here...ppls doesn't really willing to
go to HELL but they're not realize wht they have done in this world since their
still alive...humans are weak with worldly enjoynment...so ironically,if u have
to ask God: "God, i'm willing to go to HELL (or at least in purgatory
process) bcoz ima SINNER..." 'maybe only morons'
lmao
"U have ask a Christians...but why not U ask the Priest, the Evangelist,
the Pope?"
-(God) loves us and it's not a guarantee that we can go to Heaven by only believing
in Him...coz it has to be follow with our action.
--to end my talk--
A Christian believes in God because he or she has met Him and discovers that He
satisfies the heart's deepest needs. The God whom Christians have joyfully found
to exist, gives us a new perspective, new meaning, new motives, new purposes,
and new joys.
God doesn't promise a life free from trouble and conflict, but He does assure us
that He will guide and sustain us if we come into a personal relationship with
Him. And millions of Christians will testify that they would give up everything
rather than go back to life without God.
---------->
We know that human beings can't create something from nothing. We may construct
things, invent things, put things together, make things work, but with all our
wisdom, we have never brought into being from scratch even the smallest spear of
grass or the tiniest toad or the simplest flower.
Who, then, did make all things? Who created them in the beginning? Who started
them? There is only one satisfactory answer-God.
----"[God] is before all things, and in him all things hold
together."-Colossians 1:17. ----
Sorry, if i'm wrong or to be Mean to U---but i'll always have faith in God and
it's not that hard but i can
see that U got more on Christian faith so it's mean that Christian is easily to
understand.
i am saying to go to HELL for GOD!
not willingly go to HELl(like who would do that?)
and GOD is not a very good answer to who created the world... or else i would
have gotten my answer ages ago...
think about it.... if god created the world... who created god? and if another
god created god... who created the god who created god....? it will be ongoing
forever and in the end... it still falls back to the same question... who
created the beginning or wat cause the beginning...we wont have a full
answer....
When it comes to God and the scriptures...I dont spend my time endlessly
questioning of how life and all things came to be. I turn to God to help me live
my life here and now. When everything seems so wrong, when i feel like breaking
down and and giving up...The idea of God being there to pick me up, its just so
reassuring.
I can fully understand where you're coming from and honestly can kind of agree
with you, however rather than coming up with your own interpretations of the
bible your simply creating 'what if' scenarios simply to prove another person
wrong. Just because you can prove someone wrong doesn't mean your right
yourself.
Proving someone wrong without a purpose, as you seem to be doing, is simply
cruel as your degrading their beliefs and at the same time aren't offering your
own perspective on the issue. Rather than simply proving people wrong why don't
you offer a different perspective or explain why they are wrong. A simple 'what
if' wont prove your point effectively but as is being seen already, just
irritating people.
Quote by RubyDrg0nnejika... read the
question carefully.....
i am saying to go to HELL for GOD!
not willingly go to HELl(like who would do that?)
and GOD is not a very good answer to who created the world... or else i would
have gotten my answer ages ago...
think about it.... if god created the world... who created god? and if another
god created god... who created the god who created god....? it will be ongoing
forever and in the end... it still falls back to the same question... who
created the beginning or wat cause the beginning...we wont have a full
answer....
everyone in the world wouldn't know who created GOD...well, if i have answer
here i assure u that i'll tell ya abt that. so if u keep questioning who created
God why don't U ask yourself...it's your opinion who created God and who created
the another God...and so on....
why do we have to keep arguing wwho created the beginning or what cause the
beginning if no one know that.
i don't think your arguments really work, because u can't ask somebody whether
he would stay in hell or not just for god's sake, if u know what i mean. If u
believe in god, then it doesn't matter why u do it, u just do it and u lay ur
fate in the hands of god. The question: would you be willing... ? is not in the
hands of the Christian anymore, so he should not worry about and just try to
live up to gods values the best way he can.
errhem.... if you wanna argue about the existance of god... fine...lemme make
another thread on that.....
In this thread... i wan to talk about the basic of Christian's faith....
If you Christians!(refering to nejika and hoturi and littejohnny100) ever see
things as the whole.... you will notice i am directing my arguments at how
unrealistic the Christian faith is... which is that Christians based their
believe on God juz to get into Heaven......... coz when questioned if they ever
love God enough to go to hell forever for him..... no one give me a good
answer....
Ok...for the sake of the arguments
littlejohhnny100....you should realize you cant fully understandwhere i coming
from coz you already made a mistake about the whole thread thing... im not here
to argue about the existance of god.... just a critic on human
behavior....Christian is not bad... in a sense it do help ppl... just that ppl
screw it up through bad faith.... even when the bible stated so many times that
human are imperfect... their pride juz kick in and keep wanting to be
"perfect" like... having the perfect religion or something....
really.... then... they started to stop learning.... thinking everything is
enough...... then they become a bit fanatics when it comes to "wat they
think is rite".... i have been to most of these situations... and is very
tired of it...... now i juz disprove anything that i think is too
"fanatical" and "im-practical"...... and to tell you the
truth... with the bible..... you can have so many interpretation on the facts on
god that it is up to the believers to find them.... but most ppl just stop in
the first phase..... like when god says that he/she/it made human from his own
image.... does that mean that we really look like god? no... it could also mean
that we look like part of god... or juz that our system of thinking and movement
look like god.... god may juz look like a planet with distinct facial features
which look abit like us....... so wat kind of believer are you?
nejika: it is obvious you dunno the answer and wanna runs from it... i know it
is kinda meaningless to think about this...... but i am against blind faith...
which is no think and full pursue toward an ideology just to keep yourself
content..... c'mon.... my ideologies isn't perfect either... i juz keep on
thinking about them... until i come to that state i that i got all possibilities
i want... you should do half the same or something..... use your brain to think
about all wats out there... dont spend time uselessly trying to stop ppl from
thinking..... support he human evolution...!... ok , back to topic.... wat kind
of believer are you?
hoturi: hm... you are juz repeating the question yourself.... "are you
willing to go to hell eternally for god?".... is the basis of my
querstions... scroll up and read the first posts.....
and now now... sry if anyone got misled by the direction of the arguments.....im
not criticising Christian religion..... juz human behaviour..... on how blindly
ppl follow their religion and Christianity have lots of examples.... i only have
those im afraid coz i suffer and understand most from it in my life..... so back
to question.... hoturi... you statement just tells that you think all Christians
should just only live up to godly values and stop thinking?.....im sry to say
this but....pls STOP using religion as an excuse when asking about your
opinions! its unfair to do so... coz you are stopping all thoughts on a subject!
not only for yourself but everyone else too.....
back to question.... so wat kind of believer are you?
I also happen to be a Baptist, though I don't really believe I fall under any
denomination. I believe in God and love him because I believe he has changed my
life for the better. He's blessed me with many things I probably don't deserve
and believe that he truly loves me. I can't say I've been devoted to reading my
Bible every day, but if I ever come into question about something someone says,
I do look for proof to back it up. I'm still working on reading the Bible one
time thought.. though I keep putting it off like most other things.
As to the basics of Christian faith, a Chrisitan is defined as one who believes
that Jesus died to pay for our sins and ressurected from death on the third day.
Christians believe in an all powerful god who created everything and put humans
in charge of running it. Many Chrisitans in name, as they are reffered to, don't
really know what they believe in and also act in a way that defames Chrisitans
in general. I believe in my religion and believe in the God I worship because I
believe that I can feel him guiding me.
As to those scenarios, I believe that I would go to hell eternally for God
because thats where we belong to begin with. "For the wages of sin is
death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Romans 6:23. So if I have to go to hell eternally, then so be it.
I totally agree with you about reading the Bible. You should never go into
something blindly in life, and I believe that in order to truly believe in
something, you have to know what you believe first. I have also seen many people
who claim to know Christianity, and can't even begin to answer the simplest
things about it. I am no expert on Christianity, but I do endeavor to know what
it is I believe in.
@RubyDrg0n: i assume u didn't got what i wanted to tell u and i'm
not repeating ur question!
I'm not trying to use religion as an excuse, so let me get to the point: If u
are a christian, and u believe in god, than u also accept that there could be
hell and that u could probably get there in the end.
But i think that is not ur choice if u get there or not, and that is what
bothered me in ur argumentation, because if u believe that god existed than it
wouldn't help u to turn ur back on him, just because ur afraid of probably
ending in hell.
I don't think u should stupidly believe in everything the pope or anyone else is
telling u, but if u come the conclusion that it is right for u than try to live
up to it the best way u can.
hmm.... still havent answer any of my questions yet... out of the 8
ppl(excluding myself) in this thread... only 1 answered.....
anyway...
hoturi...you didnt get me either... in your previous post... you state about its
not about given the choice of going to hell for god....but for the willingness
of it...
In my question... I ask if you Christians will be willing to go to hell for
god.....
tell me why it isnt the same?
And also... i wanna add something....coz Hoturi(thx) remind me of something that
need clarifying...... there are ppl in the world who really believe in god just
because of the sake to go to Heaven.... its not about wat they do... but in the
bible, it is writtten that if those who dont believe in Him will not go
heaven....
so i post this thread to check out who and how many have the true faith of
Christians... tigerofthebow(thank you for cooperation) have given me a
sastisfactory answer.... any others?... argue about it too... its good for
further thinking into this matter.....(juz dont do meaningless arguments)
Do I love and believe in my GOD? Yup.
Both counts. Reason: For belief: Because that faith
helps me in my everyday life. For love: *frown* Because. Why do you love your
girl/boyfriend? :p Sacrifice: Yes, I'd be willing to
sacrifice a lot to hold on to that faith (although exactly where I'd draw the
line, I can't say). Did I read and understand the mandates of my
belief and use my own interpretation on it or listen to someone else? I
read and accepted the mandates of my belief, no interpretations, no second-hand
beliefs.
If you love and believe in someone, it's usually because of what they've done
for you. If God personally helped you, you wouldn't be a Christian, you'd be
someone who KNEW... religion is about beliefs. It's about your faith helping
you. - Not God.
"you believe in Him because you believe he can improve your life?"
lol, that would be a pretty dumb belief really...
Would you be willing to sacrifice yourself to help/save someone you loved and
believed in? I sure would. But not because they told me to do it, if that's what
you're asking... but rather, if it was necessary for some (unforseen) reason.
The same goes for faith, it was necessary to hold on to my faith that I do
something, I would bear that burden willingly...
"For (3) & (4)... did you really read ad understand the bible and use
your own interpretation on it? or you just listen to wat ppl say and think that
it is good....? "
Christian's believe the bible's teachings... not what Bob down-the-road says
about the bible!
There see, I answered all of your questions (some twice or more), so
:-p
'course, I'm not a Christian... is insanity really a necessary attribute for
filling out your questionnaire?
Quote by MichaelW"For (3) &
(4)... did you really read ad understand the bible and use your own
interpretation on it? or you just listen to wat ppl say and think that it is
good....? "
Christian's believe the bible's teachings... not what Bob down-the-road says
about the bible!
There see, I answered all of your questions (some twice or more), so :-p
'course, I'm not a Christian... is insanity really a necessary attribute for
filling out your questionnaire?
some ppl do not really interpret the bible by themselves... they rely on other
ppl's idea... hope you luck in achieving true believe... and that your
interpretation works for you...
also...yea insanity seems to be part of the essence of my reasonings... I still
wonder am I insane yet? but thats just a human perspection... so I dun think i
can do much about it...
Yes, your questionnaire is flawed. Take time to redraft it, preferably with
correct reasoning, spelling and grammar and it could be a useful point. There's
a lot of excellent books you can read to help you. "Philosophy, The
Basics", by Nigel Warburton would be a good start.
That is afterall what is important, Ruby... can't have a question with poor
spelling and grammar! What are you thinking? Go back to the basics damnit!
:-p
lmao.
I thought it was fun, and well written(sp's and grammer notwithstanding), and I
do agree with your perceptions.
As to the insanity, I'd say you're more or less as crazy as the rest of
humanity, welcome to the club
lol... I was basically trying to make Christians think of questions contradicted
to their own religion...(seems like i failed)
sry about my bad way of expressing myself.... i am still learning
afterall!
anyway, I believe that by continuous questioning ourselves on what we do is one
of the main drive to evolution nowadays, some religions nowadays actually live
in the past when it is neccessary to have certain thoughts or ideas which do not
fit in the modern society and this create flaws...
the only problem with this is because they dont think for themselves
anymore...
I admit i am accusing Christianity have this problem now and that i really hope
ppl can start learning for themselves and really put a thought into their
believes to archieve true believing.....
by the way, i am so happy that i found religions that actually let their
believers get closer to true believing....
the Buddhist society i just got myself involved with have lots of ppl who
actually think and keep on thinking.... about life and the nature of the
world......(have good debates with them)
Next, i am going to check out the Muslim society here...
I'm impressed! Even though I must admit that I haven't read through each and
every discussion and argument I can clearly say that you at least has given
this, despite your agnostic conviction, more thought than most believers (not of
any particular faith, but believers in general). For the record, I'm not gonna
do the questionaire, but I do have some comments:
Most believers start with the assumption that their religion is the one and
only. I mean, how are you going argue the existence of any deity to a kid who's
being admited for the first time? Its usualy more a case of "if you miss
Sunday school one more time you're going to be grounded for a week!" Kids
can't argue against that. During my final year at school our minister stated
arguments for the validity of the Christian faith. He said: "if
Christianity isn't the only religion, what are we doing here (in the church).
We'd be wasting our time. But we are here, so that means it is the only
one." What kind of argument is that?
Anyway, it would be unfair to single one silly reason out as the sole basis of
one's agnosticism. In general I have found that Christians tend to be more
agresive and arogant when it comes to their faith (I'm not pointing the finger
to anyone here - I'm making a generelisation). I know that there is a command in
the Bible: "Go to the nations and convert them in My name" (don't
quote me on this, I'm translating here ^^). But is that a reason for
missionaries and old ladies to be so self-righteous about it? I know that
Muslims did nasty things to Christians and Jews during and after the Crusades,
but it wasn't as if the Europeans were behaving themselves in Arab countries.
But there is no instance of Muslims or any other religion that I am aware of
that is as vehement in converting other nations and cultures than Christians. I
don't even start with all the inter-religion fighting.
I repeat: I'm generelising. Most Christians tend to be more laid-back. As are
most Muslims (there are more Muslims in Africa than any other place in the world
- ever seen a black Muslim burning America's flag?). But Christians want to
convert the world. Have you noticed that almost only Christians wants to discuss
their faith on MT. The other religions couldn't care less. Because most other
religions are culture-based. Christianity, despite its strong Judeaen / Greek
foundation should be culturally and chronologically based as well. Too much time
have passed for any layman to claim he or she understands the Bible fully. What
do you think theologians and translators and exegists are for?
Can I just add that this was not an accusation (worst things have happened in
history, some of which had little to do with religion), merely an observation.
I, um, *used* to be what I thought was an idealistic Christian, so I know more
of our own gory history and tendencies.
I seem to have gotten a bit carried away. My apologies to Ruby Dragon if I'm the
cause for ruining his thread.
I think you have a basis for an entire thread of your own there! :-p
You can't start with the belief that all religions are valid and you can pick
which one you'd like, else you'd've effectively eliminated belief in any of
them! :-p
Therefore, you HAVE to believe that there is one true religion and all the rest
are *edit* rubbish.
So the question becomes: What're ya gonna choose?
Are you going to go to the effort of looking through every religion ever
invented, and are you really going to simply pick what is most PLAUSIBLE to
you?
Hell no. You're going to pick out of the biggies at most and work with what most
APPEALS to you.
More likely still, you just go with what Mom & Pop are doing.
But let's say you check 'em out...
Muslims... hmm, lots of prayer... funny hat... no meat? Next.
Christians... not much of anything... Christmas presents... eat what you want...
chocolate on Easter... yeah, we could do that.
Hindu... umm? Dunno, can't be assed to go to the library today.
And there we have it. Mom and Dad are Christians... they clearly get the best
deal... I'll be a Christian!
None of the four proposed replies. I believe in Him because I have seen Him
moving in my life, and in others. ...I worship Him because he is generous,
loving, and charitible, when I am just... ...pathetic. ...I pray to Him because
He listens. ...And replies in ways of incredible intimacy. ...Mericles may not
be apparent to all, but when He moves in grace, His provisions touch you very
deep. The four answers you proposed only scratch the surface of what's really
involved.
I saw a comment earlier on here that said the whole idea of Budhisim is to get
closer to an eternal being but i'd like to correct that, not all sects of the
budhist faith belive in a supernatrual being, they are not in the majorty but
none the less they exist. I'm not trying to be critical to the person who stated
that.
Ok.... got fed up lately about an argument... decide to post it here
Now... as we all know about the Christian religion is that they all love their god and also believe in their god...
now i am going to challenge it with psychology...
So 1st question to all Christians....
1. do you LOVE and BELIEVE in your GOD?
if yes... proceed
2. why do you say yes in the 1st question...?
Choice:
1. izzit becoz He is powerful?
2. or izzit because by believing in Him and loving Him will bring you to Heaven?
3. because He helps you spiritually in your daily life?
4. you believe in Him because you believe he can improve your life?
now choose one of the choice that suited you best....which the choices i think are all the answer i summed up from alll the variations i got fromt he argument...
Now... for those who answer yes for (1) & (2).... prove your love...
-Will you be willing to go to Hell eternally for God? in the condition that there will be no heaven for you eternally?
I found some Christians saying that God will bring them back from Hell to Heaven... but wat if for eternal? and they are struck speechless....
For (3) & (4)... did you really read ad understand the bible and use your own interpretation on it? or you just listen to wat ppl say and think that it is good....?
I found most of them not understanding anything at all... and just follow blindly wat other ppl say....
So coming up to the topic....(sry have to use Christian's faith as an example but got more understanding for it than other religions)
how do you believe? blind or true?..... hope to get positive arguments and comments, and also very constructive replys
I grew up in a Southern Baptist upbringing, but I was also told to find my beliefs myself. I have ended up being Agnostic. For those that don't know what that means its simply that I don't believe in anything that can't be proven. If you can prove to me that there is a God, then I will believe it, but until then I will seek out the truth. My reason behind this is that I was kind of tired of not being able to live the way I want to and be proud of myself and I was tired of being told that feeling good was bad.
How many times do I hear someone after a hard time say "I was able to do it because of God?" My thing is what about me? Wasn't I the one that got through the hard times? Wasn't it me who studied for that test and passed it? It wasn't God taking that test for me, it was me... I did it. I think many believe this is because it is hard to believe that humans may just be the most powerful being. We have bombs that could end civilization as we know it, and knowing that scares the hell out of a lot of us. But if we believe that there is someone more powerful, it takes the pressure off of our shoulders. God gave me the strength to do it, and since he did it makes sense.
Also I tend to believe that many just want to believe so that death has a justification. If there is heaven after death, then there is no need to fear it. Being able to tell a child that their grandmother has gone to a better place is easier than telling them she is in the ground. As of right now I believe once you are dead, its simply game over. Dirt nap-o-rama... nothing more.
And thats my two cents. Commence the rock throwing.
I think to honestly believe in any religion, there has to be a very profound experience. Myself and shoujoboy probably have not experienced such an eye opening event; thus, we continue to question our world around us and make use of the knowledge that the tree has bestowed upon us.
It's funny, but I remember the implicit declaration that worldly knowledge does not fit the criteria for faith... meaning, that faith is not provable by science one bit... unless you throw in stuff like statistics and other approximation tools in the mix.
my 2 pennies...
Hmph. There's been a study about this. They made a MIT scan to a buddhist monk when he's medetating. They found his mind actually kind of... gains a large of substance that is used in perception..... Meaning he could actually feel of other people around him without relying on his ears,sight,feeling....
In other words, he could sense a powerful being through the boundaries of our dimension..... That must be the reason why alot of ancient people started their religions. Meditators felt the presence of an 'etereal' being through the wall of our universe.
-Izaak, Lord of the Lotus Clan.
Nice output Izaak.... however its more toward a human perspective when it comes to religion.... like Buddhism is all about getting closer to this etereal being.... Christians and Islam and alot of religions tends to worship this etereal being.... Taoism analyze the nature of this being and use it on the world(and also worship it)....
I personally think that all religion is a human-perspective based thing and to really believe is to go sense it.... not follow through the "perspective" part... That is my true believe.... how to sense it? this s up to ourselves to "feel".....any comments?
As I raise as a Christian (Catholic), i do believe in GOD...man there's only one god...
I believe in God coz i've the experience of His blessing...if u doubt it it's up to u.
And,...what do U mean by this?:
--Will you be willing to go to Hell eternally for God? in the condition that there will be no heaven for you eternally? ---
What for?...it's ridiculous thought u have here...ppls doesn't really willing to go to HELL but they're not realize wht they have done in this world since their still alive...humans are weak with worldly enjoynment...so ironically,if u have to ask God: "God, i'm willing to go to HELL (or at least in purgatory process) bcoz ima SINNER..." 'maybe only morons'
lmao
"U have ask a Christians...but why not U ask the Priest, the Evangelist, the Pope?"
-(God) loves us
--to end my talk--
A Christian believes in God because he or she has met Him and discovers that He satisfies the heart's deepest needs. The God whom Christians have joyfully found to exist, gives us a new perspective, new meaning, new motives, new purposes, and new joys.
God doesn't promise a life free from trouble and conflict, but He does assure us that He will guide and sustain us if we come into a personal relationship with Him. And millions of Christians will testify that they would give up everything rather than go back to life without God.
---------->
We know that human beings can't create something from nothing. We may construct things, invent things, put things together, make things work, but with all our wisdom, we have never brought into being from scratch even the smallest spear of grass or the tiniest toad or the simplest flower.
Who, then, did make all things? Who created them in the beginning? Who started them? There is only one satisfactory answer-God.
----"[God] is before all things, and in him all things hold together."-Colossians 1:17. ----
Sorry, if i'm wrong or to be Mean to U---but i'll always have faith in God and it's not that hard
but i can
see that U got more on Christian faith so it's mean that Christian is easily to
understand.
nejika... read the question carefully.....
i am saying to go to HELL for GOD!
not willingly go to HELl(like who would do that?)
and GOD is not a very good answer to who created the world... or else i would have gotten my answer ages ago...
think about it.... if god created the world... who created god? and if another god created god... who created the god who created god....? it will be ongoing forever and in the end... it still falls back to the same question... who created the beginning or wat cause the beginning...we wont have a full answer....
When it comes to God and the scriptures...I dont spend my time endlessly questioning of how life and all things came to be. I turn to God to help me live my life here and now. When everything seems so wrong, when i feel like breaking down and and giving up...The idea of God being there to pick me up, its just so reassuring.
I can fully understand where you're coming from and honestly can kind of agree with you, however rather than coming up with your own interpretations of the bible your simply creating 'what if' scenarios simply to prove another person wrong. Just because you can prove someone wrong doesn't mean your right yourself.
Proving someone wrong without a purpose, as you seem to be doing, is simply cruel as your degrading their beliefs and at the same time aren't offering your own perspective on the issue. Rather than simply proving people wrong why don't you offer a different perspective or explain why they are wrong. A simple 'what if' wont prove your point effectively but as is being seen already, just irritating people.
why do we have to keep arguing wwho created the beginning or what cause the beginning if no one know that.
Well,
i don't think your arguments really work, because u can't ask somebody whether he would stay in hell or not just for god's sake, if u know what i mean. If u believe in god, then it doesn't matter why u do it, u just do it and u lay ur fate in the hands of god. The question: would you be willing... ? is not in the hands of the Christian anymore, so he should not worry about and just try to live up to gods values the best way he can.
Greets Hoturi
errhem.... if you wanna argue about the existance of god... fine...lemme make another thread on that.....
In this thread... i wan to talk about the basic of Christian's faith....
If you Christians!(refering to nejika and hoturi and littejohnny100) ever see things as the whole.... you will notice i am directing my arguments at how unrealistic the Christian faith is... which is that Christians based their believe on God juz to get into Heaven......... coz when questioned if they ever love God enough to go to hell forever for him..... no one give me a good answer....
Ok...for the sake of the arguments
littlejohhnny100....you should realize you cant fully understandwhere i coming from coz you already made a mistake about the whole thread thing... im not here to argue about the existance of god.... just a critic on human behavior....Christian is not bad... in a sense it do help ppl... just that ppl screw it up through bad faith.... even when the bible stated so many times that human are imperfect... their pride juz kick in and keep wanting to be "perfect" like... having the perfect religion or something.... really.... then... they started to stop learning.... thinking everything is enough...... then they become a bit fanatics when it comes to "wat they think is rite".... i have been to most of these situations... and is very tired of it...... now i juz disprove anything that i think is too "fanatical" and "im-practical"...... and to tell you the truth... with the bible..... you can have so many interpretation on the facts on god that it is up to the believers to find them.... but most ppl just stop in the first phase..... like when god says that he/she/it made human from his own image.... does that mean that we really look like god? no... it could also mean that we look like part of god... or juz that our system of thinking and movement look like god.... god may juz look like a planet with distinct facial features which look abit like us....... so wat kind of believer are you?
nejika: it is obvious you dunno the answer and wanna runs from it... i know it is kinda meaningless to think about this...... but i am against blind faith... which is no think and full pursue toward an ideology just to keep yourself content..... c'mon.... my ideologies isn't perfect either... i juz keep on thinking about them... until i come to that state i that i got all possibilities i want... you should do half the same or something..... use your brain to think about all wats out there... dont spend time uselessly trying to stop ppl from thinking..... support he human evolution...!... ok , back to topic.... wat kind of believer are you?
hoturi: hm... you are juz repeating the question yourself.... "are you willing to go to hell eternally for god?".... is the basis of my querstions... scroll up and read the first posts.....
and now now... sry if anyone got misled by the direction of the arguments.....im not criticising Christian religion..... juz human behaviour..... on how blindly ppl follow their religion and Christianity have lots of examples.... i only have those im afraid coz i suffer and understand most from it in my life..... so back to question.... hoturi... you statement just tells that you think all Christians should just only live up to godly values and stop thinking?.....im sry to say this but....pls STOP using religion as an excuse when asking about your opinions! its unfair to do so... coz you are stopping all thoughts on a subject! not only for yourself but everyone else too.....
back to question.... so wat kind of believer are you?
I also happen to be a Baptist, though I don't really believe I fall under any denomination. I believe in God and love him because I believe he has changed my life for the better. He's blessed me with many things I probably don't deserve and believe that he truly loves me. I can't say I've been devoted to reading my Bible every day, but if I ever come into question about something someone says, I do look for proof to back it up. I'm still working on reading the Bible one time thought.. though I keep putting it off like most other things.
As to the basics of Christian faith, a Chrisitan is defined as one who believes that Jesus died to pay for our sins and ressurected from death on the third day. Christians believe in an all powerful god who created everything and put humans in charge of running it. Many Chrisitans in name, as they are reffered to, don't really know what they believe in and also act in a way that defames Chrisitans in general. I believe in my religion and believe in the God I worship because I believe that I can feel him guiding me.
As to those scenarios, I believe that I would go to hell eternally for God because thats where we belong to begin with. "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23. So if I have to go to hell eternally, then so be it.
I totally agree with you about reading the Bible. You should never go into something blindly in life, and I believe that in order to truly believe in something, you have to know what you believe first. I have also seen many people who claim to know Christianity, and can't even begin to answer the simplest things about it. I am no expert on Christianity, but I do endeavor to know what it is I believe in.
@RubyDrg0n: i assume u didn't got what i wanted to tell u
and i'm
not repeating ur question!
I'm not trying to use religion as an excuse, so let me get to the point: If u are a christian, and u believe in god, than u also accept that there could be hell and that u could probably get there in the end.
But i think that is not ur choice if u get there or not, and that is what bothered me in ur argumentation, because if u believe that god existed than it wouldn't help u to turn ur back on him, just because ur afraid of probably ending in hell.
I don't think u should stupidly believe in everything the pope or anyone else is telling u, but if u come the conclusion that it is right for u than try to live up to it the best way u can.
hmm.... still havent answer any of my questions yet... out of the 8 ppl(excluding myself) in this thread... only 1 answered.....
anyway...
hoturi...you didnt get me either... in your previous post... you state about its not about given the choice of going to hell for god....but for the willingness of it...
In my question... I ask if you Christians will be willing to go to hell for god.....
tell me why it isnt the same?
And also... i wanna add something....coz Hoturi(thx) remind me of something that need clarifying...... there are ppl in the world who really believe in god just because of the sake to go to Heaven.... its not about wat they do... but in the bible, it is writtten that if those who dont believe in Him will not go heaven....
so i post this thread to check out who and how many have the true faith of Christians... tigerofthebow(thank you for cooperation) have given me a sastisfactory answer.... any others?... argue about it too... its good for further thinking into this matter.....(juz dont do meaningless arguments)
Do I love and believe in my GOD? Yup. Both counts.
Reason: For belief: Because that faith helps me in my everyday life. For love: *frown* Because. Why do you love your girl/boyfriend? :p
Sacrifice: Yes, I'd be willing to sacrifice a lot to hold on to that faith (although exactly where I'd draw the line, I can't say).
Did I read and understand the mandates of my belief and use my own interpretation on it or listen to someone else? I read and accepted the mandates of my belief, no interpretations, no second-hand beliefs.
If you love and believe in someone, it's usually because of what they've done for you. If God personally helped you, you wouldn't be a Christian, you'd be someone who KNEW... religion is about beliefs. It's about your faith helping you. - Not God.
"you believe in Him because you believe he can improve your life?" lol, that would be a pretty dumb belief really...
Would you be willing to sacrifice yourself to help/save someone you loved and believed in? I sure would. But not because they told me to do it, if that's what you're asking... but rather, if it was necessary for some (unforseen) reason. The same goes for faith, it was necessary to hold on to my faith that I do something, I would bear that burden willingly...
"For (3) & (4)... did you really read ad understand the bible and use your own interpretation on it? or you just listen to wat ppl say and think that it is good....? "
Christian's believe the bible's teachings... not what Bob down-the-road says about the bible!
There see, I answered all of your questions (some twice or more), so :-p
'course, I'm not a Christian... is insanity really a necessary attribute for filling out your questionnaire?
Thats a good answer...
unfortunately...
some ppl do not really interpret the bible by themselves... they rely on other ppl's idea... hope you luck in achieving true believe... and that your interpretation works for you...
also...yea insanity seems to be part of the essence of my reasonings... I still wonder am I insane yet? but thats just a human perspection... so I dun think i can do much about it...
Yes, your questionnaire is flawed. Take time to redraft it, preferably with correct reasoning, spelling and grammar and it could be a useful point. There's a lot of excellent books you can read to help you. "Philosophy, The Basics", by Nigel Warburton would be a good start.
Drills
*sniggers*
That is afterall what is important, Ruby... can't have a question with poor spelling and grammar! What are you thinking? Go back to the basics damnit! :-p
lmao.
I thought it was fun, and well written(sp's and grammer notwithstanding), and I do agree with your perceptions.
As to the insanity, I'd say you're more or less as crazy as the rest of humanity, welcome to the club
lol... I was basically trying to make Christians think of questions contradicted to their own religion...(seems like i failed)
sry about my bad way of expressing myself.... i am still learning afterall!
anyway, I believe that by continuous questioning ourselves on what we do is one of the main drive to evolution nowadays, some religions nowadays actually live in the past when it is neccessary to have certain thoughts or ideas which do not fit in the modern society and this create flaws...
the only problem with this is because they dont think for themselves anymore...
I admit i am accusing Christianity have this problem now and that i really hope ppl can start learning for themselves and really put a thought into their believes to archieve true believing.....
by the way, i am so happy that i found religions that actually let their believers get closer to true believing....
the Buddhist society i just got myself involved with have lots of ppl who actually think and keep on thinking.... about life and the nature of the world......(have good debates with them)
Next, i am going to check out the Muslim society here...
@RubyDrg0n
I'm impressed! Even though I must admit that I haven't read through each and every discussion and argument I can clearly say that you at least has given this, despite your agnostic conviction, more thought than most believers (not of any particular faith, but believers in general). For the record, I'm not gonna do the questionaire, but I do have some comments:
Most believers start with the assumption that their religion is the one and only. I mean, how are you going argue the existence of any deity to a kid who's being admited for the first time? Its usualy more a case of "if you miss Sunday school one more time you're going to be grounded for a week!" Kids can't argue against that. During my final year at school our minister stated arguments for the validity of the Christian faith. He said: "if Christianity isn't the only religion, what are we doing here (in the church). We'd be wasting our time. But we are here, so that means it is the only one." What kind of argument is that?
Anyway, it would be unfair to single one silly reason out as the sole basis of one's agnosticism. In general I have found that Christians tend to be more agresive and arogant when it comes to their faith (I'm not pointing the finger to anyone here - I'm making a generelisation). I know that there is a command in the Bible: "Go to the nations and convert them in My name" (don't quote me on this, I'm translating here ^^). But is that a reason for missionaries and old ladies to be so self-righteous about it? I know that Muslims did nasty things to Christians and Jews during and after the Crusades, but it wasn't as if the Europeans were behaving themselves in Arab countries. But there is no instance of Muslims or any other religion that I am aware of that is as vehement in converting other nations and cultures than Christians. I don't even start with all the inter-religion fighting.
I repeat: I'm generelising. Most Christians tend to be more laid-back. As are most Muslims (there are more Muslims in Africa than any other place in the world - ever seen a black Muslim burning America's flag?). But Christians want to convert the world. Have you noticed that almost only Christians wants to discuss their faith on MT. The other religions couldn't care less. Because most other religions are culture-based. Christianity, despite its strong Judeaen / Greek foundation should be culturally and chronologically based as well. Too much time have passed for any layman to claim he or she understands the Bible fully. What do you think theologians and translators and exegists are for?
Can I just add that this was not an accusation (worst things have happened in history, some of which had little to do with religion), merely an observation. I, um, *used* to be what I thought was an idealistic Christian, so I know more of our own gory history and tendencies.
I seem to have gotten a bit carried away. My apologies to Ruby Dragon if I'm the cause for ruining his thread.
lol@Joemighty.
I think you have a basis for an entire thread of your own there! :-p
You can't start with the belief that all religions are valid and you can pick which one you'd like, else you'd've effectively eliminated belief in any of them! :-p
Therefore, you HAVE to believe that there is one true religion and all the rest are *edit* rubbish.
So the question becomes: What're ya gonna choose?
Are you going to go to the effort of looking through every religion ever invented, and are you really going to simply pick what is most PLAUSIBLE to you?
Hell no. You're going to pick out of the biggies at most and work with what most APPEALS to you.
More likely still, you just go with what Mom & Pop are doing.
But let's say you check 'em out...
Muslims... hmm, lots of prayer... funny hat... no meat? Next.
Christians... not much of anything... Christmas presents... eat what you want... chocolate on Easter... yeah, we could do that.
Hindu... umm? Dunno, can't be assed to go to the library today.
And there we have it. Mom and Dad are Christians... they clearly get the best deal... I'll be a Christian!
None of the four proposed replies. I believe in Him because I have seen Him moving in my life, and in others. ...I worship Him because he is generous, loving, and charitible, when I am just... ...pathetic. ...I pray to Him because He listens. ...And replies in ways of incredible intimacy. ...Mericles may not be apparent to all, but when He moves in grace, His provisions touch you very deep. The four answers you proposed only scratch the surface of what's really involved.
I saw a comment earlier on here that said the whole idea of Budhisim is to get closer to an eternal being but i'd like to correct that, not all sects of the budhist faith belive in a supernatrual being, they are not in the majorty but none the less they exist. I'm not trying to be critical to the person who stated that.