There is no doubt that Jesus was a real person. If you don't believe that then
you can't believe any Roman history because Jesus is mentioned all over the
place by Roman historians - most who didn't believe in Him. Also, His death is
recorded in multiple sources outside the Bible as death by cruxifiction. So, we
know that He lived and He died. We also know that, according to ancient Roman
historians, He was the reason for "the way" - as they referred to it
then.
Therefore, since we know that He lived, died, and lead a large group of people,
what then happened to His body?
I think that after Jesus was resurrected (we can agree that happened, right?),
he returned to heaven and taught the souls of those who didn't have a chance to
hear the gospel. He returned to Earth and met with his disciples. I think that
after he left his disciples, he went to the Americas, where he taught the people
there (now they're "Native Americans"). Afterwards, he was lifted up
into heaven like the inhabitants of the City of Enoch (do a Google search if you
don't know what that is).
Quote by finnguyI think that after Jesus
was resurrected (we can agree that happened, right?), he returned to heaven and
taught the souls of those who didn't have a chance to hear the gospel. He
returned to Earth and met with his disciples. I think that after he left his
disciples, he went to the Americas, where he taught the people there (now
they're "Native Americans"). Afterwards, he was lifted up into heaven
like the inhabitants of the City of Enoch (do a Google search if you don't know
what that is).
Ya ! He resurrected ! Stayed on for another 40 days b4 rising up to Heaven.
No, we can't all agree that Jesus was resurrected. His body was probably taken
by grave robbers or even his own followers for all we know. Ultimately, his body
would have decayed and become fertilizer, of that I can be sure. Unless mummy
Jesus turns up, but I doubt that.
He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was
preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in
glory" (1 Tim. 3:16)
"JESUS WAS A MAN WHO WAS REPORTED DEAD -BUT WHO WAS SEEN ALIVE A FEW DAYS
LATER"
The Bible does not say what happened to his physical body. When the ladies came
to put spices on his body( to honor it and make it so it would not stink) they
found his burial cloths neatly laid in the tomb. According to the Bible, Jesus
appeared in the upper room. A room with a closed, locked door. Apparently he did
not have a normal body any longer.
He was resurrected and then left his physical body (which is assumed to then
decay) and he went to heaven to join his father (god) as a spiritual creature,
an angel by the name of Michael. Thats what my religion believes.
What about this: since the disciples and other followers (those who saw Him
after His resurrection - assuming it happened) claimed He was risen and no
longer in the grave and they witnessed Him being taken up to heaven - then what
would be the ONE thing the Pharisees, Romans, etc. would have had to do to
completely destroy this theory forever? Find the body. Why isn't it reported in
ANY book of ancient history that His body was found? That is the ONLY thing
they'd have to accomplish in order to end this "idea" of Jesus being
God.
Hmm, Jesus or I more like call he Isa Almasih, he is a prompet . He reported
have been kill by people but they wrong , because the person who they have been
kill is Judas. So where is Isa as (Jesus). The GOD raie him up to the heaven (
it's mean Isa as still alive) and someday he will come down to the eart again to
finish his jobs. Thats time is when world almost ending.
Quote by codewulfThe Bible does not say
what happened to his physical body. When the ladies came to put spices on his
body( to honor it and make it so it would not stink) they found his burial
cloths neatly laid in the tomb. According to the Bible, Jesus appeared in the
upper room. A room with a closed, locked door. Apparently he did not have a
normal body any longer.
Curious to know what "Bible" you're referring to that states that the
above quote is all Jesus did? The Bible
I have tells us about how He walked with them, ate with them, and talked with
them. He appeared to over 500 people. Thomas, who didn't believe it (that Jesus
had risen) when the women told him, said that he would have to put his very own
fingers into the holes on Jesus' body. What did Jesus tell him? Basically,
"Thomas, put your fingers here. Touch my side (where the spear penetrated
Him)". Nothing fake about that. "Blessed is he who believes without
seeing."
Your Bible reference isn't necessarily inaccurate but the conclusion sure
doesn't represent the truth about the resurrection.
I can't differentiate between serious opinions and comics here.
Where is the tradition that He went to the Americas? Is that Mormon?
Neither, according to the Bible, did He return after being taken up to heaven.
Thats the whole point of Christianity, to still be waiting for Him to return and
trigger the Apocalyps.
There is no direct mention of Him by Roman authors. They only refered to a
Jewish rebel named Josua who they said was concidered the new king of the Jews,
therefore enemy of the Roman state and Emperor. Later, in the 2nd cent. the
Roman emperor Trajanus had a discussion with a Roman governor who had asked
Trajanus what he was supposed to do about these Christoi. Up to date, anyone who
was accused to be a Christian, therefore a traitor (didn't recognise the Roman
emperor as sole leader and divinity on earth), was executed. To the Romans,
Jesus onl slightly less rebellious than Simon bar Kochba, the leader of the Bar
Kochba revolution (135 AD) which led to the total destruction of the Judean
state under the Romans.
Later on the story was broadened out by apologists (Christian authers who
rewrote history and philosophy who tried to suck up to Christians such as the
first Christian emperor Constantine (330 AD) who was christened on his death
bed.
There is also no city of Enoch. Enoch is a character that appears briefly in
Genesis but there is a whole cosmology written by someone who called himself
Enoch (written in the 1st cent BC in Aramaic). It was basically another version
of how the world came to be (more mythologically based) and how the heavens were
put together. His city is one and the same as the one in Revelations.
Another point. Before Christians were taken seriously by the Jews and the Romans
several decades had passed. If someone had stowed His body away they wouldn't
have cared less (anyway, its improbable because any Jew would have been impure
after comming near a dead body, even a divine one).
Just a note. There's nothing special about crucifixion. Millions of crimminals
were crucified in the Roman Empire. Jesus, as a Jew, a non Roman and a rebell,
were crucified. Paul, the Roman citisen (remember) were beheaded, as is a Roman
citisen's right. The early sect of Christians' leader were given a humiliating
end, looked down upon by any Roman and Jew alike (also remember that
Christianity was blasphemous by Jewish standards - claiming to be the son of God
was the highest blasphemy and treason for the Jews). Also, He was crucified on
the request of the Jews (who wanted to stone him according to Jewsih law, but
couldn't since executions had to be done according to Roman law) who wanted to
get rid of a blasphemer and a possible cause for a rebellion (which they later
got anyway).
Quote by joemighty16
There is no direct mention of Him by Roman authors. They only refered to a
Jewish rebel named Josua who they said was concidered the new king of the Jews,
therefore enemy of the Roman state and Emperor.
This isn't accurate. There are several:
JOSEPHUS: (37-101 A.D.)
Josephus was born in Jerusalem only four years after Jesus' crucifixion. He was
an eyewitness to much of what he recorded in the first century A.D. Josephus
mentions many events and people from the Gospels. Josephus was an Orthodox Jew
who was commissioned by the Romans to write a history of the Jewish people and
Rome up until that point.
Mentions Jesus: Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3.
"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call
him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as
receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and
many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of
the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved
him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the
third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other
wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him,
are not extinct at this day. "
Mentions John the Baptist and Herod: Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 5, par.
2
"Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came
from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John,
that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and
commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one
another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing
[with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to
the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the
purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified
beforehand by righteousness."
Mentions James, the half-brother of Jesus: Antiquities, Book 20, ch.
19.
"Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled
the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was
called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his
companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of
the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most
equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the
laws, they disliked what was done."
TACITUS: (55-117 A.D.)
Cornelius Tactitus is regarded as the greatest historian of ancient Rome.
Writing on the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the
existence of Christians in Rome.
"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and
inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations,
called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin,
suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of
our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus
checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of
the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every
part of the world find their centre and become popular."
PLINY THE YOUNGER: (112 A.D.)
Governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor, Pliny wrote a letter to the Emperor Trajan
regarding how to deal with Christians who worship Christ. These letters concern
an episode which marks the first time the Roman government recognized
Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism, and sets a precedent for the
massive persecution of Christians that takes place in the second and third
centuries.
"They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day
before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to
a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never
to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a
trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their
custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food but food of an
ordinary and innocent kind."
BABYLONIAN TALMUD: (Completed in the 6th Century
A.D.)
The Babylonian Talmud is a Rabbinic commentary on the Jewish scriptures (Tanach:
Old Testament). They are a look into what a hostile source was saying about
Jesus. They couldn't deny his miracles so they claim that it was sorcery rather
than admit to what was a known fact. They also admit that Yeshu (Hebrew for
Jesus) was hanged (Crucified: Luke 23:39, Galatians 3:13).
"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the
execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to
be stoned because he has practiced sorcery (an admission of his miracles) and
enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him
come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought
forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!"
The Babylonian Talmud, vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a.
LUCIAN: (120-180 A.D.)
A Greek satirist that spoke scornfully of Christ and Christians, affirming that
they were real and historical people, never saying that they were fictional
characters.
"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day the distinguished
personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that
account....You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction
that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and
voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was
impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from
the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the
crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with
the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as
common property."
Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13.
LETTER OF MARA BARSARAPION: (73 A.D.)
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who lived in the first century A.D. He wrote a
letter to his son Serapion that mentions the Jews who killed their King. The
letter is now in the possession of the British Museum.
"What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine
and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos
for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or
the Jews by murdering their wise king?...After that their kingdom was abolished.
God rightly avenged these men...The wise king...Lived on in the teachings he
enacted."
Thallus: (52 A.D.)
One of the first secular writers that mentioned Christ. Thallus wrote a history
of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time.
Unfortunately, his writings are only found as citations by others. Julius
Africanus, a Christian who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus' account of an
eclipse of the sun (Luke 23:44-45).
"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks
were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were
thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as
appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun."
Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.
PHLEGON: (1st Century)
A secular historian wrote a history named, "Chronicles." This original
work has been lost, Julius Africanus preserved a small fragment in his writings.
Phlegon mentions the eclipse (Matthew 27:45) during the crucifixion of
Jesus.
"During the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during
the full moon."
Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.
suetonius: (69-140 A.D.)
A Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian.
He refers to Christ and Christians and the "disturbances" caused by
them, namely not worshipping idols and loving all, including their
tormentors.
"Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation
of Chrestus [Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from the city [Rome]."
Acts 18:2, which took place in 49 A.D.
Life of Claudius, 25:4.
In another work Suetonius wrote about the the fire which devastated Rome in 64
A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians and exacted a heavy
punishment upon them, among them covering them with pitch and burning them alive
in his gardens.
"Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and
mischievous religious belief."
Lives of the Caesars, 26.2
CELSUS: (2nd Century)
Criticizes the Gospels, unknowingly reinforces the authors and the content, he
alludes to 80 different quotes in the Bible. Admits that the miracles of Jesus
were generally believed in the 2nd century.
JULIAN THE APOSTATE: (332-363 A.D.)
Emperor of Rome mentions the Gospels, miracles and other facts about Jesus.
Julian had struggled to end the power of Christians in the Roman Empire. Since
the day fifty years earlier that Constantine conquered in the sign of the cross,
Christian influence had steadily grown. As Julian lay dying from a mortal wound
he made the following remark:
"As he bled, the dying emperor groaned, "You have conquered, O
Galilean," referring to Jesus Christ.
CLEMENT OF ROME: (100 A.D.)
Clement affirms the Resurrection, Gospels and that Jesus was sent to earth by
God to take away our sins.
"Clement was the fourth bishop of Rome, the first being Peter. Did he know
Peter and Paul? It is completely possible that those two Spirit-filled men
taught him. Clement even wrote a letter to the Corinthian church that echoed the
teachings of the apostles."
Ignatius of Antioch: (50-107 A.D.)
Disciple of the apostles Peter, Paul, and John, who was martyred for his faith
in Jesus. He was obviously convinced that Jesus really had lived and that Jesus
was all that the apostles has said He was.
"...nearness to the sword is nearness to God; to be among the wild beasts
is to be in the arms of God; only let it be in the name of Jesus Christ. I
endure all things that I may suffer together with him, since he who became
perfect man strengthens me...We have not only to be called Christians, but to be
Christians."
While the emperor Trajan was on a visit to Asia Minor, he arrested Ignatius.
When the bishop confessed his faith in Christ, the Emperor sent him in chains to
Rome to die. He was hustled to the arena at once and thrown to two fierce lions
who immediately devoured him.
QUADRATUS: (125 A.D.)
Bishop of Athens and a disciple of the apostles. Church historian Eusebius has
preserved the only work that we have from Quadratus.
"The deeds of our Saviour were always before you, for they were true
miracles; those that were healed, those that were raised from the dead, who were
seen, not only when healed and when raised, but were always present. They
remained living a long time, not only whilst our Lord was on earth, but likewise
when he had left the earth. So that some of them have also lived in our
times."
Eusebius, IV, III
EPISTLE OF BARNABAS: (130-38 A.D.)
Mentions the Resurrection, miracles, content of the Gospels and the crucifixion
of Jesus.
ARISTIDES: (138-161 A.D.)
Aristides was a second-century Christian believer and philosopher from Athens.
This portion of his defense of Christianity was addressed to the Roman Emperor
Antonius Pius, who reigned from 138-161 A.D.
"The Son of the most high God, revealed by the Holy Spirit, descended from
heaven, born of a Hebrew Virgin. His flesh he received from the Virgin, and he
revealed himself in the human nature as the Son of God. In his goodness which
brought the glad tidings, he has won the whole world by his life-giving
preaching...He selected twelve apostles and taught the whole world by his
mediatorial, light-giving truth. And he was crucified, being pierced with nails
by the Jews; and he rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. He sent the
apostles into all the world and instructed all by divine miracles full of
wisdom. Their preaching bears blossoms and fruits to this day, and calls the
whole world to illumination."
Carey, "Aristides," 68.
justin MARTYR: (106-167 A.D.)
Justin Martyr is regarded as one of the greatest early Christian apologists. He
was born around 100 A.D and was beheaded for his faith in Jesus in 167 A.D. He
mentions as facts many things about Jesus and Christianity, such as: The Magi
(wise men who brought gifts from Arabia), King Herod, His crucifixion, His
garments parted among the Roman soldiers, the apostles leaving him on the night
of his arrest, his fulfilled prophecies, His resurrection and His ascending into
heaven among many others. These quotes can be found in his debate with Trypho
the Jew.
HEGESIPPUS: (2 Century)
Eusebius draws the conclusion that Hegesippus was a Jew that wrote five books
called, "Memoirs." Only fragments remain of his original work in the
writings of Eusebius. They show that Hegesippus traveled extensively trying to
determine if the stories of Jesus and the apostles were true. He found that they
they were accurate, even in the troubled church in Corinth.
"The Corinthian church continued in the true doctrine until Primus became
bishop. I mixed with them on my voyage to Rome and spent several days with the
Corinthians, during which we were refreshed with the true doctrine. On arrival
at Rome I pieced together the succession down to Anicetus, whose deacon was
Eleutherus, Anicetus being succeeded by Soter and he by Eleutherus. In every
line of bishops and in every city things accord with the preaching of the Law,
the Prophets, and the Lord."
Eusebius, The History of the Church, 9.22.2.
TRAJAN: (53-117 A.D.)
Trajan is a Roman Emperor who wrote a letter [see letter] in response to the
Governor of Asia Minor, Pliny the Younger. Pliny needed advice in dealing with
"Christians" who renounced their belief in Jesus due to fear of
torture and execution.
MACROBIUS: (4th-5th Century)
Pascal (Pensees) mentions a quote of Augustus Caesar as an evidence to the
murder of the 7-20 male babies (this is based on the population of Bethlehem in
4-6 B.C., which was 700-1,000 people) by King Herod in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:16).
King Herod heard that a king was to be born and his fear and mental instability
caused him to kill these male children under two years of age. King Herod killed
his Wife, mother in law, and three sons. This is in character with his life of
murder and paranoia. King Herod's reign was described by his enemies as,
"He stole to the throne like a fox, ruled like a tiger, and died like a
dog."
Saturnalia, lib. 2, ch.4.
HADRIAN: (106-167 A.D.)
Justin Martyr quotes this Roman Emperor's letter to Minucius Fundanus, proconsul
of Asia Minor. This letter deals with accusations from pagans against the
Christians.
"I have received the letter addressed to me by your predecessor Serenius
Granianus, a most illustrious man; and this communication I am unwilling to pass
over in silence, lest innocent persons be disturbed, and occasion be given to
the informers for practicing villainy. Accordingly, if the inhabitants of your
province will so far sustain this petition of theirs as to accuse the Christians
in some court of law, I do not prohibit them from doing so. But I will not
suffer them to make use of mere entreaties and outcries. For it is far more
just, if any one desires to make an accusation, that you give judgment upon it.
If, therefore, any one makes the accusation, and furnishes proof that the said
men do anything contrary to the laws, you shall adjudge punishments in
proportion to the offences. And this, by Hercules; you shall give special heed
to, that if any man shall, through mere calumny, bring an accusation against any
of these persons, you shall award to him more severe punishments in proportion
to his wickedness."
Justin Martyr, The First Apology, Chapters, 68-69.
juvenal: (55 AD-127 AD)
Juvenal makes a reference of the tortures of Christians by Nero in
Rome.
"But just describe Tigellinus and you will blaze amid those faggots in
which men, with their throats tightly gripped, stand and burn and smoke, and you
trace a broad furrow through the middle of the arena."
Satires, 1, lines 147-157.
seneca: (3 B.C.-65 A.D.)
Seneca mentions the cruelties that Nero imposes upon Christians.
"The other kind of evil comes, so to speak, in the form of a huge parade.
Surrounding it is a retinue of swords and fire and chains and a mob of beasts to
be let loose upon the disemboweled entrails of men. Picture to yourself under
his head the prison, the cross, the rack, the hook, and the stake which they
drive straight through a man until it protrudes from his throat. Think of human
limbs torn apart by chariots driven in opposite directions, of the terrible
shirt smeared and interwoven with inflammable materials, and of all the other
contrivances devised by cruelty, in addition to those which I have
mentioned!"
Epistulae Morales, Epistle 14, "On the Reasons for Withdrawing from the
World."
HIEROCLES: (AD 284-305)
A quote by Eusebius preserves some of the text of this lost work of Hierocles,
Philalethes or Lover of Truth. In this quote, Hierocles condemns Peter and Paul
as sorcerers. Again, their miracles could not be denied, rather they claimed
that they used sorcery.
"And this point is also worth noticing, that whereas the tales of Jesus
have been vamped up by Peter and Paul and a few others of the kind,--men who
were liars and devoid of education and wizards."
Eusebius, The Treatise of Eusebius, ch. 2.
ANTONIUS PIUS: (86 AD to 161 AD)
A letter from the Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius to the general assembly in Asia
Minor. This letter says that the officials in Aisa Minor were getting upset at
the Christians in their province, and that no changes are to be made in
Antoninus' method of dealing with them.
"The Emperor Caesar Titus AElius Adrianus Antoninus Augustus Pius, Supreme
Pontiff, in the fifteenth year of his tribuneship, Consul for the third time,
Father of the fatherland, to the Common Assembly of Asia, greeting: I should
have thought that the gods themselves would see to it that such offenders should
not escape. For if they had the power, they themselves would much rather punish
those who refuse to worship them; but it is you who bring trouble on these
persons, and accuse as the opinion of atheists that which they hold, and lay to
their charge certain other things which we are unable to prove. But it would be
advantageous to them that they should be thought to die for that of which they
are accused, and they conquer you by being lavish of their lives rather than
yield that obedience which you require of them. And regarding the earthquakes
which have already happened and are now occurring, it is not seemly that you
remind us of them, losing heart whenever they occur, and thus set your conduct
in contrast with that of these men; for they have much greater confidence
towards God than you yourselves have. And you, indeed, seem at such times to
ignore the gods, and you neglect the temples, and make no recognition of the
worship of God. And hence you are jealous of those who do serve Him, and
persecute them to the death. Concerning such persons, some others also of the
governors of provinces wrote to my most divine father; to whom he replied that
they should not at all disturb such persons, unless they were found to be
attempting anything against the Roman government. And to myself many have sent
intimations regarding such persons, to whom I also replied in pursuance of my
father's judgment. But if any one has a matter to bring against any person of
this class, merely as such a person, let the accused be acquitted of the charge,
even though he should be found to be such an one; but let the accuser he
amenable to justice."
Justin Martyr, The First Apology, ch. 70.
Of course that's not presented from memory but quoted. Not difficult to show the
inaccuracy of the statement.
Quote: Later, in the 2nd cent. the
Roman emperor Trajanus had a discussion with a Roman governor who had asked
Trajanus what he was supposed to do about these Christoi. Up to date, anyone who
was accused to be a Christian, therefore a traitor (didn't recognise the Roman
emperor as sole leader and divinity on earth), was executed. To the Romans,
Jesus onl slightly less rebellious than Simon bar Kochba, the leader of the Bar
Kochba revolution (135 AD) which led to the total destruction of the Judean
state under the Romans.
Jerusalem was destroyed earlier but Simon did lead a revolt that lead to several
anti-Jewish measures.
Quote: Later on the story was
broadened out by apologists (Christian authers who rewrote history and
philosophy who tried to suck up to Christians such as the first Christian
emperor Constantine (330 AD) who was christened on his death
bed.
This is not accurate. There is no evidence to this point. If you are referring
to "The Council of Nicea" then you need to check your historical
facts. However, since you didn't mention it I won't assume. But, there is more
evidence that the Gospels are historically accurate and not tampered with than
there is to support your argument. Actually, there isn't evidence.
Quote: There is also no city of
Enoch. Enoch is a character that appears briefly in Genesis but there is a whole
cosmology written by someone who called himself Enoch (written in the 1st cent
BC in Aramaic). It was basically another version of how the world came to be
(more mythologically based) and how the heavens were put together. His city is
one and the same as the one in Revelations.
Never studied this so I don't know. I will say that I really don't understand
what your point is here concerning the thread's question.
Quote: Another point. Before
Christians were taken seriously by the Jews and the Romans several decades had
passed. If someone had stowed His body away they wouldn't have cared less
(anyway, its improbable because any Jew would have been impure after comming
near a dead body, even a divine one).
From a Roman standpoint, yes - they wouldn't care. From a Jewish standpoint,
they did care. For those who felt He was not their Messiah and went as far as to
persecute those Jews who did, then all they'd have to do is prove He was in the
tomb. Christianity would have come to a dead hault. But, they couldn't. And
simply being impure didn't condemn them but it did require a
"cleansing" process - as laid out in the Torah.
Quote: Just a note. There's nothing
special about crucifixion.
From the Roman perspective, correct. They were professional killers and
torturers. It was, and most likely still is, the worst way to die. From Christ's
perspective it was very significant. He had to die the worst possible death and
have His blood spilled. Also, the death by crucifixion is very significant from
the resurrection perspective. Why? Impossible to fake that death.
Quote: Millions of crimminals were
crucified in the Roman Empire. Jesus, as a Jew, a non Roman and a rebell, were
crucified. Paul, the Roman citisen (remember) were beheaded, as is a Roman
citisen's right. The early sect of Christians' leader were given a humiliating
end, looked down upon by any Roman and Jew alike (also remember that
Christianity was blasphemous by Jewish standards - claiming to be the son of God
was the highest blasphemy and treason for the Jews). Also, He was crucified on
the request of the Jews (who wanted to stone him according to Jewsih law, but
couldn't since executions had to be done according to Roman law) who wanted to
get rid of a blasphemer and a possible cause for a rebellion (which they later
got anyway).
That's true. Overall a good post but didn't really address the thread's
question.
Well I must certainly congratulate you on your extensive research. Christian
history isn't my forte, I'm more involved in Classical history and from all the
authers you mentioned (half of which aren't Roman - I thought you said that they
were the authorative sources) Tacitus is the only one worth mentioning from an
academical viewpoint. Anyway, most of these references refered to a person, or
leader of a sect known as the Christians. It doesn't say anything of His
divinity, so those can hardly be used as proof. I'm surprised at some of your
authers though. Josephus has been descredited as being a Roman lap-dog, the
Talmud's have been tampered with by apologists. Your other authers are either
too late or written by Christians or Christian apologists. I admit that I made
some sweeping statements, but the authoritve authers refers to Christians and
their executed leader in the same way that they would have refered to any
growing sect in any other place in the Empire. Go read the rest of Tacitus, even
that egomaniac Caesar - they state what they heard of local sources. As for the
gospels, even St Augustine had trouble accepting it because it was so poorly
written compared to the availible texts of that time (250 AD).
Most of the other things I mentioned is merely background. Yes I know of the 79
AD rebelion but to my mind that was political while 135 AD was
religious.
Anyway, early on there were fewer Jewish converts than Roman or Greek. Jews were
more conservative and most refused to accept Him as their Messiah. They wanted a
military leader to free them from the Romans. They wanted a king. Not a poor
philosopher or Rabbi. Thats what they thought they found in Simon bar
Kochba.
Anyway, I'm sure that during the Inqusition they had implemented worse ways to
die than crucifixion.
Just be careful for conspiracy theories concerning the body of Christ. We have
enough concerning the Ark of the Covenant, the Lance of Longinus, etc. Does it
make a difference for you as believer to find a scapegoat 2000 years ago?
Where is heaven ? Nobody knows .
Who is Jesus ? We can know him only from the history .
So , I think , Jesus , is a man , and he died .
He is a leader in history , but not now . And his body , went back to the nature
long ago .
Quote by joemighty16Well I must
certainly congratulate you on your extensive research. Christian history isn't
my forte, I'm more involved in Classical history and from all the authers you
mentioned (half of which aren't Roman - I thought you said that they were the
authorative sources) Tacitus is the only one worth mentioning from an academical
viewpoint. Anyway, most of these references refered to a person, or leader of a
sect known as the Christians. It doesn't say anything of His divinity, so those
can hardly be used as proof. I'm surprised at some of your authers though.
Josephus has been descredited as being a Roman lap-dog, the Talmud's have been
tampered with by apologists. Your other authers are either too late or written
by Christians or Christian apologists. I admit that I made some sweeping
statements, but the authoritve authers refers to Christians and their executed
leader in the same way that they would have refered to any growing sect in any
other place in the Empire. Go read the rest of Tacitus, even that egomaniac
Caesar - they state what they heard of local sources. As for the gospels, even
St Augustine had trouble accepting it because it was so poorly written compared
to the availible texts of that time (250 AD).
I am aware that many of those were in fact Christian sources but many were first
and early second century. If I were to write a book about the "real"
truth of September 9/11 and load it with a bunch of false stories and
conclusions and even mentioned actual people - it would be very easy to prove
false due to the timeframe of my writing and the event and the fact that many
people I quoted or mentioned could come out and say it wasn't true. If I lived
three hundred years from now it would be more difficult to prove my book false
due to the fact that much time has passed and all have died who experienced it.
The Bible has more documents, and early documents (secular and Christian) than
any other book in all of antiquity.
Quote: Anyway, early on there were
fewer Jewish converts than Roman or Greek. Jews were more conservative and most
refused to accept Him as their Messiah. They wanted a military leader to free
them from the Romans. They wanted a king. Not a poor philosopher or Rabbi. Thats
what they thought they found in Simon bar Kochba.
Absolutely true. That's why the Jews yelled "Hosanna" as He entered
Jerusalem on Passover. That term has political value not religious. They wanted
Him to deliver them from the Romans - Hosanna = deliverer. They also waived palm
branches which were very much a political symbol to them and very similar to us
Americans and the American flag.
Quote: Just be careful for
conspiracy theories concerning the body of Christ. We have enough concerning the
Ark of the Covenant, the Lance of Longinus, etc. Does it make a difference for
you as believer to find a scapegoat 2000 years ago?
There are many theories but all can be shown to be completely illogical if
studied. If we could show that Christ's body was not resurrected then yes it
would make a huge difference. Why? Because that's the primary foundation of His
deity - He died and rose again.
Thanks for discussing in a civil manner. It's refreshing.
There is no doubt that Jesus was a real person. If you don't believe that then you can't believe any Roman history because Jesus is mentioned all over the place by Roman historians - most who didn't believe in Him. Also, His death is recorded in multiple sources outside the Bible as death by cruxifiction. So, we know that He lived and He died. We also know that, according to ancient Roman historians, He was the reason for "the way" - as they referred to it then.
Therefore, since we know that He lived, died, and lead a large group of people, what then happened to His body?
I think that after Jesus was resurrected (we can agree that happened, right?), he returned to heaven and taught the souls of those who didn't have a chance to hear the gospel. He returned to Earth and met with his disciples. I think that after he left his disciples, he went to the Americas, where he taught the people there (now they're "Native Americans"). Afterwards, he was lifted up into heaven like the inhabitants of the City of Enoch (do a Google search if you don't know what that is).
Ya ! He resurrected ! Stayed on for another 40 days b4 rising up to Heaven.
Good question.
Ashes to ashes...
Dust to dust...
It most likely turned to dust and is blowing in the eternal winds of time.
No, we can't all agree that Jesus was resurrected. His body was probably taken by grave robbers or even his own followers for all we know. Ultimately, his body would have decayed and become fertilizer, of that I can be sure. Unless mummy Jesus turns up, but I doubt that.
He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory" (1 Tim. 3:16)
"JESUS WAS A MAN WHO WAS REPORTED DEAD -BUT WHO WAS SEEN ALIVE A FEW DAYS LATER"
The Bible does not say what happened to his physical body. When the ladies came to put spices on his body( to honor it and make it so it would not stink) they found his burial cloths neatly laid in the tomb. According to the Bible, Jesus appeared in the upper room. A room with a closed, locked door. Apparently he did not have a normal body any longer.
He was resurrected and then left his physical body (which is assumed to then decay) and he went to heaven to join his father (god) as a spiritual creature, an angel by the name of Michael. Thats what my religion believes.
What about this: since the disciples and other followers (those who saw Him after His resurrection - assuming it happened) claimed He was risen and no longer in the grave and they witnessed Him being taken up to heaven - then what would be the ONE thing the Pharisees, Romans, etc. would have had to do to completely destroy this theory forever? Find the body. Why isn't it reported in ANY book of ancient history that His body was found? That is the ONLY thing they'd have to accomplish in order to end this "idea" of Jesus being God.
Hmm, Jesus or I more like call he Isa Almasih, he is a prompet . He reported have been kill by people but they wrong , because the person who they have been kill is Judas. So where is Isa as (Jesus). The GOD raie him up to the heaven ( it's mean Isa as still alive) and someday he will come down to the eart again to finish his jobs. Thats time is when world almost ending.
Curious to know what "Bible" you're referring to that states that the above quote is all Jesus did? The Bible I have tells us about how He walked with them, ate with them, and talked with them. He appeared to over 500 people. Thomas, who didn't believe it (that Jesus had risen) when the women told him, said that he would have to put his very own fingers into the holes on Jesus' body. What did Jesus tell him? Basically, "Thomas, put your fingers here. Touch my side (where the spear penetrated Him)". Nothing fake about that. "Blessed is he who believes without seeing."
Your Bible reference isn't necessarily inaccurate but the conclusion sure doesn't represent the truth about the resurrection.
It was abducted by aliens for Experimentation and then returned at the bottom of the black sea.
I can't differentiate between serious opinions and comics here.
Where is the tradition that He went to the Americas? Is that Mormon?
Neither, according to the Bible, did He return after being taken up to heaven. Thats the whole point of Christianity, to still be waiting for Him to return and trigger the Apocalyps.
There is no direct mention of Him by Roman authors. They only refered to a Jewish rebel named Josua who they said was concidered the new king of the Jews, therefore enemy of the Roman state and Emperor. Later, in the 2nd cent. the Roman emperor Trajanus had a discussion with a Roman governor who had asked Trajanus what he was supposed to do about these Christoi. Up to date, anyone who was accused to be a Christian, therefore a traitor (didn't recognise the Roman emperor as sole leader and divinity on earth), was executed. To the Romans, Jesus onl slightly less rebellious than Simon bar Kochba, the leader of the Bar Kochba revolution (135 AD) which led to the total destruction of the Judean state under the Romans.
Later on the story was broadened out by apologists (Christian authers who rewrote history and philosophy who tried to suck up to Christians such as the first Christian emperor Constantine (330 AD) who was christened on his death bed.
There is also no city of Enoch. Enoch is a character that appears briefly in Genesis but there is a whole cosmology written by someone who called himself Enoch (written in the 1st cent BC in Aramaic). It was basically another version of how the world came to be (more mythologically based) and how the heavens were put together. His city is one and the same as the one in Revelations.
Another point. Before Christians were taken seriously by the Jews and the Romans several decades had passed. If someone had stowed His body away they wouldn't have cared less (anyway, its improbable because any Jew would have been impure after comming near a dead body, even a divine one).
Just a note. There's nothing special about crucifixion. Millions of crimminals were crucified in the Roman Empire. Jesus, as a Jew, a non Roman and a rebell, were crucified. Paul, the Roman citisen (remember) were beheaded, as is a Roman citisen's right. The early sect of Christians' leader were given a humiliating end, looked down upon by any Roman and Jew alike (also remember that Christianity was blasphemous by Jewish standards - claiming to be the son of God was the highest blasphemy and treason for the Jews). Also, He was crucified on the request of the Jews (who wanted to stone him according to Jewsih law, but couldn't since executions had to be done according to Roman law) who wanted to get rid of a blasphemer and a possible cause for a rebellion (which they later got anyway).
This isn't accurate. There are several:
JOSEPHUS: (37-101 A.D.)
Josephus was born in Jerusalem only four years after Jesus' crucifixion. He was an eyewitness to much of what he recorded in the first century A.D. Josephus mentions many events and people from the Gospels. Josephus was an Orthodox Jew who was commissioned by the Romans to write a history of the Jewish people and Rome up until that point.
Mentions Jesus: Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3.
"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day. "
Mentions John the Baptist and Herod: Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 5, par. 2
"Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness."
Mentions James, the half-brother of Jesus: Antiquities, Book 20, ch. 19.
"Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done."
TACITUS: (55-117 A.D.)
Cornelius Tactitus is regarded as the greatest historian of ancient Rome. Writing on the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians in Rome.
"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."
PLINY THE YOUNGER: (112 A.D.)
Governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor, Pliny wrote a letter to the Emperor Trajan regarding how to deal with Christians who worship Christ. These letters concern an episode which marks the first time the Roman government recognized Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism, and sets a precedent for the massive persecution of Christians that takes place in the second and third centuries.
"They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food but food of an ordinary and innocent kind."
BABYLONIAN TALMUD: (Completed in the 6th Century A.D.)
The Babylonian Talmud is a Rabbinic commentary on the Jewish scriptures (Tanach: Old Testament). They are a look into what a hostile source was saying about Jesus. They couldn't deny his miracles so they claim that it was sorcery rather than admit to what was a known fact. They also admit that Yeshu (Hebrew for Jesus) was hanged (Crucified: Luke 23:39, Galatians 3:13).
"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery (an admission of his miracles) and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!"
The Babylonian Talmud, vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a.
LUCIAN: (120-180 A.D.)
A Greek satirist that spoke scornfully of Christ and Christians, affirming that they were real and historical people, never saying that they were fictional characters.
"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account....You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property."
Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13.
LETTER OF MARA BARSARAPION: (73 A.D.)
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who lived in the first century A.D. He wrote a letter to his son Serapion that mentions the Jews who killed their King. The letter is now in the possession of the British Museum.
"What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?...After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men...The wise king...Lived on in the teachings he enacted."
Thallus: (52 A.D.)
One of the first secular writers that mentioned Christ. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. Unfortunately, his writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus, a Christian who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus' account of an eclipse of the sun (Luke 23:44-45).
"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun."
Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.
PHLEGON: (1st Century)
A secular historian wrote a history named, "Chronicles." This original work has been lost, Julius Africanus preserved a small fragment in his writings. Phlegon mentions the eclipse (Matthew 27:45) during the crucifixion of Jesus.
"During the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon."
Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.
suetonius: (69-140 A.D.)
A Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. He refers to Christ and Christians and the "disturbances" caused by them, namely not worshipping idols and loving all, including their tormentors.
"Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from the city [Rome]." Acts 18:2, which took place in 49 A.D.
Life of Claudius, 25:4.
In another work Suetonius wrote about the the fire which devastated Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians and exacted a heavy punishment upon them, among them covering them with pitch and burning them alive in his gardens.
"Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief."
Lives of the Caesars, 26.2
CELSUS: (2nd Century)
Criticizes the Gospels, unknowingly reinforces the authors and the content, he alludes to 80 different quotes in the Bible. Admits that the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the 2nd century.
JULIAN THE APOSTATE: (332-363 A.D.)
Emperor of Rome mentions the Gospels, miracles and other facts about Jesus. Julian had struggled to end the power of Christians in the Roman Empire. Since the day fifty years earlier that Constantine conquered in the sign of the cross, Christian influence had steadily grown. As Julian lay dying from a mortal wound he made the following remark:
"As he bled, the dying emperor groaned, "You have conquered, O Galilean," referring to Jesus Christ.
CLEMENT OF ROME: (100 A.D.)
Clement affirms the Resurrection, Gospels and that Jesus was sent to earth by God to take away our sins.
"Clement was the fourth bishop of Rome, the first being Peter. Did he know Peter and Paul? It is completely possible that those two Spirit-filled men taught him. Clement even wrote a letter to the Corinthian church that echoed the teachings of the apostles."
Ignatius of Antioch: (50-107 A.D.)
Disciple of the apostles Peter, Paul, and John, who was martyred for his faith in Jesus. He was obviously convinced that Jesus really had lived and that Jesus was all that the apostles has said He was.
"...nearness to the sword is nearness to God; to be among the wild beasts is to be in the arms of God; only let it be in the name of Jesus Christ. I endure all things that I may suffer together with him, since he who became perfect man strengthens me...We have not only to be called Christians, but to be Christians."
While the emperor Trajan was on a visit to Asia Minor, he arrested Ignatius. When the bishop confessed his faith in Christ, the Emperor sent him in chains to Rome to die. He was hustled to the arena at once and thrown to two fierce lions who immediately devoured him.
QUADRATUS: (125 A.D.)
Bishop of Athens and a disciple of the apostles. Church historian Eusebius has preserved the only work that we have from Quadratus.
"The deeds of our Saviour were always before you, for they were true miracles; those that were healed, those that were raised from the dead, who were seen, not only when healed and when raised, but were always present. They remained living a long time, not only whilst our Lord was on earth, but likewise when he had left the earth. So that some of them have also lived in our times."
Eusebius, IV, III
EPISTLE OF BARNABAS: (130-38 A.D.)
Mentions the Resurrection, miracles, content of the Gospels and the crucifixion of Jesus.
ARISTIDES: (138-161 A.D.)
Aristides was a second-century Christian believer and philosopher from Athens. This portion of his defense of Christianity was addressed to the Roman Emperor Antonius Pius, who reigned from 138-161 A.D.
"The Son of the most high God, revealed by the Holy Spirit, descended from heaven, born of a Hebrew Virgin. His flesh he received from the Virgin, and he revealed himself in the human nature as the Son of God. In his goodness which brought the glad tidings, he has won the whole world by his life-giving preaching...He selected twelve apostles and taught the whole world by his mediatorial, light-giving truth. And he was crucified, being pierced with nails by the Jews; and he rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. He sent the apostles into all the world and instructed all by divine miracles full of wisdom. Their preaching bears blossoms and fruits to this day, and calls the whole world to illumination."
Carey, "Aristides," 68.
justin MARTYR: (106-167 A.D.)
Justin Martyr is regarded as one of the greatest early Christian apologists. He was born around 100 A.D and was beheaded for his faith in Jesus in 167 A.D. He mentions as facts many things about Jesus and Christianity, such as: The Magi (wise men who brought gifts from Arabia), King Herod, His crucifixion, His garments parted among the Roman soldiers, the apostles leaving him on the night of his arrest, his fulfilled prophecies, His resurrection and His ascending into heaven among many others. These quotes can be found in his debate with Trypho the Jew.
HEGESIPPUS: (2 Century)
Eusebius draws the conclusion that Hegesippus was a Jew that wrote five books called, "Memoirs." Only fragments remain of his original work in the writings of Eusebius. They show that Hegesippus traveled extensively trying to determine if the stories of Jesus and the apostles were true. He found that they they were accurate, even in the troubled church in Corinth.
"The Corinthian church continued in the true doctrine until Primus became bishop. I mixed with them on my voyage to Rome and spent several days with the Corinthians, during which we were refreshed with the true doctrine. On arrival at Rome I pieced together the succession down to Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus, Anicetus being succeeded by Soter and he by Eleutherus. In every line of bishops and in every city things accord with the preaching of the Law, the Prophets, and the Lord."
Eusebius, The History of the Church, 9.22.2.
TRAJAN: (53-117 A.D.)
Trajan is a Roman Emperor who wrote a letter [see letter] in response to the Governor of Asia Minor, Pliny the Younger. Pliny needed advice in dealing with "Christians" who renounced their belief in Jesus due to fear of torture and execution.
MACROBIUS: (4th-5th Century)
Pascal (Pensees) mentions a quote of Augustus Caesar as an evidence to the murder of the 7-20 male babies (this is based on the population of Bethlehem in 4-6 B.C., which was 700-1,000 people) by King Herod in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:16).
King Herod heard that a king was to be born and his fear and mental instability caused him to kill these male children under two years of age. King Herod killed his Wife, mother in law, and three sons. This is in character with his life of murder and paranoia. King Herod's reign was described by his enemies as, "He stole to the throne like a fox, ruled like a tiger, and died like a dog."
Saturnalia, lib. 2, ch.4.
HADRIAN: (106-167 A.D.)
Justin Martyr quotes this Roman Emperor's letter to Minucius Fundanus, proconsul of Asia Minor. This letter deals with accusations from pagans against the Christians.
"I have received the letter addressed to me by your predecessor Serenius Granianus, a most illustrious man; and this communication I am unwilling to pass over in silence, lest innocent persons be disturbed, and occasion be given to the informers for practicing villainy. Accordingly, if the inhabitants of your province will so far sustain this petition of theirs as to accuse the Christians in some court of law, I do not prohibit them from doing so. But I will not suffer them to make use of mere entreaties and outcries. For it is far more just, if any one desires to make an accusation, that you give judgment upon it. If, therefore, any one makes the accusation, and furnishes proof that the said men do anything contrary to the laws, you shall adjudge punishments in proportion to the offences. And this, by Hercules; you shall give special heed to, that if any man shall, through mere calumny, bring an accusation against any of these persons, you shall award to him more severe punishments in proportion to his wickedness."
Justin Martyr, The First Apology, Chapters, 68-69.
juvenal: (55 AD-127 AD)
Juvenal makes a reference of the tortures of Christians by Nero in Rome.
"But just describe Tigellinus and you will blaze amid those faggots in which men, with their throats tightly gripped, stand and burn and smoke, and you trace a broad furrow through the middle of the arena."
Satires, 1, lines 147-157.
seneca: (3 B.C.-65 A.D.)
Seneca mentions the cruelties that Nero imposes upon Christians.
"The other kind of evil comes, so to speak, in the form of a huge parade. Surrounding it is a retinue of swords and fire and chains and a mob of beasts to be let loose upon the disemboweled entrails of men. Picture to yourself under his head the prison, the cross, the rack, the hook, and the stake which they drive straight through a man until it protrudes from his throat. Think of human limbs torn apart by chariots driven in opposite directions, of the terrible shirt smeared and interwoven with inflammable materials, and of all the other contrivances devised by cruelty, in addition to those which I have mentioned!"
Epistulae Morales, Epistle 14, "On the Reasons for Withdrawing from the World."
HIEROCLES: (AD 284-305)
A quote by Eusebius preserves some of the text of this lost work of Hierocles, Philalethes or Lover of Truth. In this quote, Hierocles condemns Peter and Paul as sorcerers. Again, their miracles could not be denied, rather they claimed that they used sorcery.
"And this point is also worth noticing, that whereas the tales of Jesus have been vamped up by Peter and Paul and a few others of the kind,--men who were liars and devoid of education and wizards."
Eusebius, The Treatise of Eusebius, ch. 2.
ANTONIUS PIUS: (86 AD to 161 AD)
A letter from the Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius to the general assembly in Asia Minor. This letter says that the officials in Aisa Minor were getting upset at the Christians in their province, and that no changes are to be made in Antoninus' method of dealing with them.
"The Emperor Caesar Titus AElius Adrianus Antoninus Augustus Pius, Supreme Pontiff, in the fifteenth year of his tribuneship, Consul for the third time, Father of the fatherland, to the Common Assembly of Asia, greeting: I should have thought that the gods themselves would see to it that such offenders should not escape. For if they had the power, they themselves would much rather punish those who refuse to worship them; but it is you who bring trouble on these persons, and accuse as the opinion of atheists that which they hold, and lay to their charge certain other things which we are unable to prove. But it would be advantageous to them that they should be thought to die for that of which they are accused, and they conquer you by being lavish of their lives rather than yield that obedience which you require of them. And regarding the earthquakes which have already happened and are now occurring, it is not seemly that you remind us of them, losing heart whenever they occur, and thus set your conduct in contrast with that of these men; for they have much greater confidence towards God than you yourselves have. And you, indeed, seem at such times to ignore the gods, and you neglect the temples, and make no recognition of the worship of God. And hence you are jealous of those who do serve Him, and persecute them to the death. Concerning such persons, some others also of the governors of provinces wrote to my most divine father; to whom he replied that they should not at all disturb such persons, unless they were found to be attempting anything against the Roman government. And to myself many have sent intimations regarding such persons, to whom I also replied in pursuance of my father's judgment. But if any one has a matter to bring against any person of this class, merely as such a person, let the accused be acquitted of the charge, even though he should be found to be such an one; but let the accuser he amenable to justice."
Justin Martyr, The First Apology, ch. 70.
Of course that's not presented from memory but quoted. Not difficult to show the inaccuracy of the statement.
Jerusalem was destroyed earlier but Simon did lead a revolt that lead to several anti-Jewish measures.
This is not accurate. There is no evidence to this point. If you are referring to "The Council of Nicea" then you need to check your historical facts. However, since you didn't mention it I won't assume. But, there is more evidence that the Gospels are historically accurate and not tampered with than there is to support your argument. Actually, there isn't evidence.
Never studied this so I don't know. I will say that I really don't understand what your point is here concerning the thread's question.
From a Roman standpoint, yes - they wouldn't care. From a Jewish standpoint, they did care. For those who felt He was not their Messiah and went as far as to persecute those Jews who did, then all they'd have to do is prove He was in the tomb. Christianity would have come to a dead hault. But, they couldn't. And simply being impure didn't condemn them but it did require a "cleansing" process - as laid out in the Torah.
From the Roman perspective, correct. They were professional killers and torturers. It was, and most likely still is, the worst way to die. From Christ's perspective it was very significant. He had to die the worst possible death and have His blood spilled. Also, the death by crucifixion is very significant from the resurrection perspective. Why? Impossible to fake that death.
That's true. Overall a good post but didn't really address the thread's question.
Well I must certainly congratulate you on your extensive research. Christian history isn't my forte, I'm more involved in Classical history and from all the authers you mentioned (half of which aren't Roman - I thought you said that they were the authorative sources) Tacitus is the only one worth mentioning from an academical viewpoint. Anyway, most of these references refered to a person, or leader of a sect known as the Christians. It doesn't say anything of His divinity, so those can hardly be used as proof. I'm surprised at some of your authers though. Josephus has been descredited as being a Roman lap-dog, the Talmud's have been tampered with by apologists. Your other authers are either too late or written by Christians or Christian apologists. I admit that I made some sweeping statements, but the authoritve authers refers to Christians and their executed leader in the same way that they would have refered to any growing sect in any other place in the Empire. Go read the rest of Tacitus, even that egomaniac Caesar - they state what they heard of local sources. As for the gospels, even St Augustine had trouble accepting it because it was so poorly written compared to the availible texts of that time (250 AD).
Most of the other things I mentioned is merely background. Yes I know of the 79 AD rebelion but to my mind that was political while 135 AD was religious.
Anyway, early on there were fewer Jewish converts than Roman or Greek. Jews were more conservative and most refused to accept Him as their Messiah. They wanted a military leader to free them from the Romans. They wanted a king. Not a poor philosopher or Rabbi. Thats what they thought they found in Simon bar Kochba.
Anyway, I'm sure that during the Inqusition they had implemented worse ways to die than crucifixion.
Just be careful for conspiracy theories concerning the body of Christ. We have enough concerning the Ark of the Covenant, the Lance of Longinus, etc. Does it make a difference for you as believer to find a scapegoat 2000 years ago?
Where is heaven ? Nobody knows .
Who is Jesus ? We can know him only from the history .
So , I think , Jesus , is a man , and he died .
He is a leader in history , but not now . And his body , went back to the nature long ago .
I am aware that many of those were in fact Christian sources but many were first and early second century. If I were to write a book about the "real" truth of September 9/11 and load it with a bunch of false stories and conclusions and even mentioned actual people - it would be very easy to prove false due to the timeframe of my writing and the event and the fact that many people I quoted or mentioned could come out and say it wasn't true. If I lived three hundred years from now it would be more difficult to prove my book false due to the fact that much time has passed and all have died who experienced it. The Bible has more documents, and early documents (secular and Christian) than any other book in all of antiquity.
Absolutely true. That's why the Jews yelled "Hosanna" as He entered Jerusalem on Passover. That term has political value not religious. They wanted Him to deliver them from the Romans - Hosanna = deliverer. They also waived palm branches which were very much a political symbol to them and very similar to us Americans and the American flag.
There are many theories but all can be shown to be completely illogical if studied. If we could show that Christ's body was not resurrected then yes it would make a huge difference. Why? Because that's the primary foundation of His deity - He died and rose again.
Thanks for discussing in a civil manner. It's refreshing.