ok...technically this is wat a fallen angel is (for those of u who dont
kno...hey! i didnt kno till a few days ago either):
(Note:this is not in my own words)
A fallen angel in Abrahamic traditions is an
angel that has been exiled or banished from Heaven. Often such banishment is a
punishment for disobeying or rebelling against God. One early source for
information on angelology as well as demonology, is the Persian prophet
Zoroaster, who is thought to have influenced Judeo-Christian beliefs [1]. The
best-known fallen angel is Satan. According to some traditions, fallen angels
will roam the Earth until Judgment Day, when they will be banished to Hell.
it is sed that well, the main reasons fallen angels fell were cause of freewill,
lust (love/desire), and pride. w/ the devil...he had 2 much pride and hate. he
thought he cud be better than god and well...he had hate.
wat i want 2 kno is do u thnk that the fallen angels were cast out oif heaven
fairly? i mean, do u thnk fallen angels deserve 2 be sent out of heaven b/c thy
fell in luv?
i dont thnk u shud be sent out of heaven b/c of luv...wat do u thnk?
...... i don't think freewill was one of the 7 sins..... and for
lust.....err...i guess it matters. if it's love then no. absolutely not. if it
was some rapist angel or soemthing then yeah. for pride. pride is a good thing.
although if u start to get a big ego then u should be scolded instead of being
cast away from heaven. as for hate.....we all hate someone in our life eh? so
yeah.... i don't really know what to say after this
In John Milton's Paradise Lost, Satan, the fallen angel, was actually your
typical hero of the novel who fell to temptations. Angels are disciples of God,
when they betray His trust, they are given the most severe punishment in heaven
(as far as we know): to fall from it.
The Fallen Angel you refer to were in love with themselves and were obcessive
over specific things: Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath, Envy, and Pride,
something we know as the 7 Deadly Sins. And thus, it was fair. Heaven has no
place for such angels who are concerned with their own welfare.
But there one problem with them banished (and something you misunderstand):
Heaven is Perfect, Hell is where they are condemned. According to
Judeo-Christianity, that it. Unfortunately, this isn't possible. If Hell is
where the Fallen Angels are Banished, then Hell is a place God designed and can
use. And thus Hell itself is a place of punishment and not of Sin. If Heaven is
perfect, then all that is not is cast out, such as most souls who leave earth.
They don't belong there. Hence the levels of heaven which is simply
absurd.
I get the feeling you like the Fallen Angels because of their Mysticism. Just
because they are Fallen doesn't mean they aren't beautiful, and misunderstood by
people. Everything is ultimately your decision, and that's what counts. Love
them because they are NO DIFFERENT than we are, not because they ARE.
Here we go with religion again. *deep sigh* Don't get me wrong, it's important
and I'm not saying my beliefs are right but it seems to me as though a lot of
religions portray god as less than perfect (I'll probably get flamed for that
one ). But it seems as though love is what one might consider a divine emotion.
And God has always been portrayed as a loving creator. If this is the case then
he would never cast anyone out. Because to truly love you need to understand
that no one's perfect. And that even with all the imperfections every being
(angel or not) is capable of loving and wants to love. As it was once put by a
very wise person I know "people are fountains of stupid" and it's
true. And if a being has emotions it is impossible for them to control those
emotions all the time. So to banish someone to such a degree on the basis of
emotion would be callous and love is all about understanding and empathy.
In short I guess I'm trying to say that I don't think God would ever really do
that and if you look at fallen angels and humans they really aren't so
different, but that doesn't mean we're all going to hell.
I think fallen angels are meant to be somewhat of a subconcious allegory of
humans. We know of our imperfections and feel that perhaps that's why we're here
but we don't think about it conciously and so it comes out through the
subconcious. In the form of archangel stories.
Quote by ShadowWraithHere we go with
religion again. *deep sigh*
You are in the Religion and Science Forum. You realize that right? You didn't
take a wrong turn at Music & Movies or anything and stumble in here? You
really shouldn't be surprised if religion pops up in a forum with Religion as
the first word in the tittle.
Anyway, to understand the concept of angels being cast out of heaven, you have
to understand a few things, which are, in fact, possibly harder to understand
than you might think. First is the nature of Heaven, second Love, third what
angels are, and forth what it means to fall from Heaven. Those aren't
neccessarily in order of importance, nor neccessarily all you need to
understand.
Heaven is not easily understood, since none of us really know what its like.
Really, it would be easier to figure out Hell, although thats not entirely
understandable. Just as it may be easier to understand demons then angels (I say
demons instead of fallen angels since their nature changes upon falling [see: Lucifer:
What do you believe in now?]) As C.S. Lewis states at the end of The
Screwtape letters, or the foreword of Screwtape Proposes A Toast, not sure which
right now. The best discriptions of heaven though have it not as a place though,
so much as a state of being. Not neccessarily physical, but beyond the physical.
What it is is perfection, joy, and love. But this perfection, joy, and love, is
the state of being in the presence and intimately connected with God and all
others. Another description also indicates that Heaven can be on earth, and that
in fact the goal of the christian is to make heaven on earth, in two ways: By
tending to those in need, improving the world around you, and forming unity with
your fellow man, or although generally including the previous, by becoming in a
state where you are so connected in love with God that you are always happy, and
serve with pleasure, so to speak (ex: Francis of Assisi was believed you
generally be happy and full of joy and love, even though he choose an
impovershed life, cut his feet from walking on jagged rocks, and endured other
hardships, because he was so in love with God that none of it mattered to him).
In any case, all good descriptions of heaven agree that it involves a deep
intamacy and connection with God.
Now, understanding this, you can see that falling from Heaven means losing that
connection with God. Now, if one rebels, or becomes consumed with other things,
such as through the deadly sins, one loses this connection since one ignores
God, or actively goes against God. It actually becomes more of a choice, accept
God, or reject God, for whatever reason. Demons are said to be those beings of
spirit who at one point rejected God, and since, unlike humans, their decisions
are perminant as they live in eternity, they rejected God forever and turned
away from Him. Now, you obviously can't connect to God if you have rejected
Him.
Just how this all happened isn't really that clear, and I don't think anyone has
ever really seen it happen.
Now love is probably a bit easier to understand, yet still very complex,
especially when you are dealing with love of God. First, there are three types
of love you must understand (sometimes more are concidered, but lets go with the
ones the greeks used): Eros, Agape, and Philia. I won't try to explain all of
them, as that would take alot and a while and more understanding than I have
anyway. Let it surfice for now that Eros is a romantic love and usually a
self-seeking love (love looking for something it likes to fulfill oneself),
Agape is known as the Divine Love and is a self-giving love (generally summed
as: The giving of self, for the good of the beloved, without condition), and
philia is a brotherly love which is more communal and I actually know less, but
its the love between friends essentially. Now all these ideally mix together in
any close relationship, such as one with God. Yes, God gives Agape, and Agape is
apparently the most used form of love used in the greek bible (which the New
Testiment was written in), and is known for that, but the relationship with God
also may reach into the Eros and Philia, in various senses. That can be looked
into more on your own, a good explination of Agape and Eros being used may be
found in Pope Benedict XVI first enciclical letter, as it is on love, but some
of that is more cleanup work of misconceptions and it doesn't go into too much
detail of philia. There are other sources as well of course.
Now, someone mentioned that if God trully loved, he would accept that no one is
perfect. Well, the problem is that thats not neccessarily true that people
aren't perfect, since they CAN be, they just aren't, and it would be very hard
to be. However, God does accept that people are not. Which is why, along with
loving, God is also often depicted as Merciful (in fact, I believe that is also
one of the names of God in Islam, or something to that effect). However, there
is a condition on this mercy, seeking it. God forgives the imperfections of man,
however we must want and seek his forgiveness, and do it with sincerity. There
is a saying that goes "All the sins of the world throughout all of history
are but a drop in the ocean of God's Mercy". After all, as I like to see it
(and I am branching into particularly christianity even more now, but it seems
we've been there throughout this topic), Jesus died for each person
individually, and, as is said in John he died for his friends, as he says
"The greatest love is this: to lay down ones life for ones friends,"
he died for Judus, one of his close friends who betrayed him. Now that becomes
interesting, since as I see it, he died for one of his closest friends, a friend
he had lived with for the last few years and been close to who turned around and
betrayed him by handing him over to die, so, in fact, he died in order to save
him from the sin of betraying him, but he also did this knowing that Judus would
not repent, and would instead kill himself and be lost despite Jesus forgiving
him and dying for him. Now, usually it is concidered that Judus died and went to
hell (not always that he commited suicide though) but I won't go into judging
him or anyone else, but for the sake of the message, he went to hell despite all
this, and Jesus knew it, but he performed this act of love anyone.
Now this can be likened to everyone. Jesus died for each individually, even
knowing that it might be in vain, because they would turn away from him and
choose to fall into hell rather than come to him and accept what they did and
seek forgiveness from the one they betrayed. Of course this plays out
differently in practice depending on the situation, but you get the idea.
However, thats not really what the topic is about.
So anyway, Angels that turn away from God, do so permanently, and its not really
unloving of God to send them away, since its more of they sent themselves away,
by not accpeting God's love and his ways. And it is said that the greatest pain
of Hell is not the fires, but the absence of God, and for those who knew Him in
Heaven, it is worse by comparison. Although it is also said, that the one who is
in fact good, in the presence of God and his perfection, would, seeing any trace
of his own imperfection, rather cast himself into a thosand hells then stand
before God with a single blemish of imperfection (hence the concept of
purgatory, which would be chosen by those sent as they are good but have
imperfections and want to rid themselves of those imperfections). Demons have a
different situations though, as they choose to turn away and fight against God
for whatever reason.
Anyway, if you've made it this far, I will address smaller issues that came up.
Pride is a deadly sin and is wrong. Usually people don't speak of the kind of
this kind of pride though. Pride is thinking yourself better then you are, or
thinking highly of yourself and becoming consumed by it. The garden of eden
story can be interpeted that the first sin was in fact the pride of believing
they could be like God. Humility is the opposite of this Pride, and is thus a
Virtue.
Demons can be seen as being like human, but in the same way as Angels can. They
are beings of spirit, after all, just as humans are, except that humans also are
physical beings with bodies. Humans have the ability to choose good or evil and
go back and forth until their death, when they become eternal and their choice
is permanant. At which point they are more like either demon or angel who is set
as they are.
Someone asked how we know there is a God? How do we exist? or that anything else
does? If you can accept those things, its not too hard. The other way is by
expirencing God, which anyone can. People say He hides and won't reveal Himself
to anyone, but thats not really true, He does all the time, but the most
completely He just waits for us to seek Him out and get rid of all our
distractions first. Although, for many of us, its also a matter of simply
believing. Others more qualified then I have answered this question, go look for
them if you'd like.
As for the question were they cast out fairly: it should be clear by now that I
would say yes, as they choose to be cast out.
merged: 08-16-2006 ~ 01:46pm
wow i wrote alot. Sorry guys, i really need to stop posting late at night when
i'm sleep deprived.
Is hell really that bad a place for demons/devils/ whatever you call them? It
seems to me that only humans that are sent there are suffering, while the
"fallen angels" seems to be able to move around freely even in the
human world...
Quote by level40Is hell really that bad a
place for demons/devils/ whatever you call them? It seems to me that only humans
that are sent there are suffering, while the "fallen angels" seems to
be able to move around freely even in the human world...
So how is sending them to hell a punishment?
They have expirenced the joys and wonders of Heaven. Thus, the loss of it is
punishment, and everything in comparison is a worse hell then any physical
suffering could give them, although they too may be suffering those types of
pains as well. I believe the play Doctor Faustus by Christopher Marlowe used
this standpoint as well, describing earth as being as bad as hell to the demon
which assists Faustus since everything is pain and suffering to those who had
expirenced Heaven and now are doomed to be outside it.
Thats one take on that question. There are various other pains and such which
have been suggested to make demons and devils miserable, and in fact this misery
has been used to help explain why they try to tempt humans, the old "Misery
loves company" explination, but i don't entirly buy into that one.
Quote:
ok...technically this is wat a fallen angel is (for those of u who dont
kno...hey! i didnt kno till a few days ago either):
(Note:this is not in my own words)
A fallen angel in Abrahamic traditions is an angel that has been exiled or
banished from Heaven. Often such banishment is a punishment for disobeying or
rebelling against God. One early source for information on angelology as well as
demonology, is the Persian prophet Zoroaster, who is thought to have influenced
Judeo-Christian beliefs [1]. The best-known fallen angel is Satan. According to
some traditions, fallen angels will roam the Earth until Judgment Day, when they
will be banished to Hell.
it is sed that well, the main reasons fallen angels fell were cause of freewill,
lust (love/desire), and pride. w/ the devil...he had 2 much pride and hate. he
thought he cud be better than god and well...he had hate.
wat i want 2 kno is do u thnk that the fallen angels were cast out oif heaven
fairly? i mean, do u thnk fallen angels deserve 2 be sent out of heaven b/c thy
fell in luv?
i dont thnk u shud be sent out of heaven b/c of luv...wat do u
thnk?
this is very serious matter.
First,Quran say him is not angel. but genie who have angel power and present in
among angels .
He is Our Number one enemy.
His objective is only one : destroy human!Adam,and all his childs.
First,He doesnt place on ground his head for Adam like all angels.
God is Anger and banished him.
then this genie make promise with God that he wants to makle human lost from God
way.he is called \"iblis\"
iblis succeded make adam and eve out from Heaven.he succceed to broke adam and
eve\"s cloth!
so why we must lost to him who succeed defeat adam once times and make us suffer
in this earth..
after this,god sent adam to earth start new life.He said that adam and all
childs have eternal wars each other vs iblis and his childs (satans).
Whoever follow hints from God,will be placed into Heaven by God.If not,will be
throw into hell!
Well, based on Catholic beliefs based mostly in the book of Revelation, the
Tradition, the reflexions of the ancient Fathers of the Church and some private
revelation that some saints received; I'll try my best to give a shorter
answer:
1. ANGELS DON'T FALL ANYMORE. They can't.
When the angels where created, they HAD FREE WILL AS US. They could choose
between good and evil (obediente or not).
2. God already knew that the Prince of Angels, The Morning Star, Lucifer was
going to betray Him. His reasons where based in a false pride: He wanted to have
the Grace of God within him, but WITHOUT GOD. He wanted His job. Grace doesn't
comes if not from God.
3. He needed soldiers for his cause, so, all he needed it was a reason for
others to follow.
4. God already knew about the rebelion, so he comunicated His desire to make a
material world, besides the spiritual. He was going to create Humans, creatures
a little lower than angels.
5. But knowing that Lucifer was going to corrupt Creation by brinning death and
sin upon it God announced that His Word, the Son, was going to become human.
Threfore, THE ANGELS WOULD HAVE TO ADORE AND KNEEL BEFORE A HUMAN.
6. That WAS THE FIRST "INSULT" TO ANGELIC CONDITION. Lucifer (Satan)
got his first followers.
7. SECOND "INSULT": This is valid in Catholic and Ortodoxes Churches,
since Evangelic and its ramifications and modern sects don't like the idea of
Virgin Mary very much. A little teenager girl that nothing hadn to do with the
Divine would have to be called their "Queen" by the angels.
8. Then there was a BATTLE IN HEAVENS Saint Michael (who didn't have a name
until them, when he pronounced as his flag the phrase "No one is like
God", Michael, in aramean, and his armies; versus Lucifer and his
followers. It was kind of an intelectual battle. Some changed bands. It's not
supossed to pass time in eternity, but God gave them this time to
rethink.
8. Angels have a gift and a course in their nature: they have perfect
intelligence. They don't need to reason. So when they finally made their choice,
they couldn't go back. Lucifer took one third of them, according to
Revelation.
9. God gave the angels that stayed with Him a gift: they couldn't choose evil
anymore. THEIR FREE WILL WAS RETIRED, SO THEY WOULDN'T BE TEMPTED AGAIN. The
proof was over, anyway, so they didn't need it anymore. SO, THEY CAN'T
FALL
I read all that stuff in a book written by a known exorcist in Europe.
"Summa Demoniaca" is its name.
Quote:
1. ANGELS DON\'T FALL ANYMORE. They can\'t.
When the angels where created, they HAD FREE WILL AS US. They could choose
between good and evil (obediente or not).
No.
Angels dont have free will. Their position already had been decide by God.
They dont have ladder to move up closer or down move away from God like genie
and human.
Quote:
2. God already knew that the Prince of Angels, The Morning Star, Lucifer was
going to betray Him. His reasons where based in a false pride: He wanted to have
the Grace of God within him, but WITHOUT GOD. He wanted His job. Grace doesn\'t
comes if not from God.
Lucifer/iblis doesnt want rival or better being other than himself.
When adam created,Adam is granted many and more \"Goods\" that makes
lucifer face become red.
Lucifer blame Allah that God makes mistake choose adam other than him.
In order to prove his \"assumption\", he made promise with
God...
God made promise, lucifer asks have life until armageddon and thats granted.
God give power for lucifer whoever humans follows lucifer will be controlled
become lucifer follower to enter hell.
Quran stated iblis doesnt have power over humans that only follow prophet and
holy book.
merged: 11-18-2006 ~ 10:52pm
Quote:
1. ANGELS DON\'T FALL ANYMORE. They can\'t.
When the angels where created, they HAD FREE WILL AS US. They could choose
between good and evil (obediente or not).
No.
Angels dont have free will. Their position already had been decide by God.
They dont have ladder to move up closer or down move away from God like genie
and human.
Quote:
2. God already knew that the Prince of Angels, The Morning Star, Lucifer was
going to betray Him. His reasons where based in a false pride: He wanted to have
the Grace of God within him, but WITHOUT GOD. He wanted His job. Grace doesn\'t
comes if not from God.
Lucifer/iblis doesnt want rival or better being other than himself.
When adam created,Adam is granted many and more \"Goods\" that makes
lucifer face become red.
Lucifer blame Allah that God makes mistake choose adam other than him.
In order to prove his \"assumption\", he made promise with
God...
God made promise, lucifer asks have life until armageddon and thats granted.
God give power for lucifer whoever humans follows lucifer will be controlled
become lucifer follower to enter hell.
Quran stated iblis doesnt have power over humans that only follow prophet and
holy book.
Well, I don't know very well the Coran, just a few lines. I'm from Mexico, a
country that's mostly Catholic. Thougth there's a large Libanese comunity, in my
1,000,000 people city there's only ONE Islamic guy (he's famous because of
that). But is not difficult to find one Coran, so, I'll buy one. I'll read
it soon as I finish reading the Bible.
I can see that there are different points of view among Catholicism and Islam
about freewill.
I want to point out some of these differences. Not to discredit your beliefs,
but because I like comparing among diferents cultures. That's interesting. And
fun.
1. In Catholicism, angels don't have freewill NOW. They HAD it at the begining,
as soon as they were created. Now they DON'T HAVE FREE WILL LIKE US.
If they didn't have freewill, how could Lucifer choose disobediente? And the
angels that followed him?
ANGELS HAVE PERFECT INTELIGENSES. The fallen can't repent, because they choosed
their position and are stuck in it. God removed freewill from good angels as a
reward, so they can't be tempted to do evil. So, they enjoy God's
grace.
Yes, they have different positions in Heaven (Choruses) as stated in Old
Testament. But doesn't matter if they are "closer" or not from God.
They are like glasses of diferent sizes. God fills them completely to the top
with His grace. One contain more grace other less, but they are full of grace.
What do you think?
One point in common: Lucifer feels betrayed in his angelic condition by the
creation of Humankind.
Two differences:Lucifer wants to be God, because he wants to have the grace
within him. Not because of Adam. Adam meant nothing to him, but the opportunity
to spoil God's more loved creature. What does the Coran say about Adam? Why was
he going to be superior to angels? What were those bessings that Lucifer
wouldn't have?
So, in your religion Lucifer's sin was Envy. In mine, was Pride, or arrogance.
Is it like this?
The main difference: We believe Jesus is the Second Person of the Three that are
ONE God. His Word and Son, Jesus, became human and Savior of Humanity. That's
because God knew humanity was going to sin because of Lucifer's temptation. What
are the respective places of Jesus and Mohammed in Islam?
2. That was a little repetitive. I apologize. But the part that most interested
me is your statement that people that follow the Coran are not under Lucifer's
power.
We believe the same. Whoever follows God is far from the devil. But I have read
your post s in other places, and I could be wrong, but I think that you meant
that those who follow Coran are NOT TEMPTED.
Does that mean that people that are not Islamic don't have the chance of being
saved?
Nowadays in Catholicism (in the past the ideas were more rigid), we believe that
whoever that has followed the path of good can be saved. Saying no to that would
be like limiting God's mercifullness. What's your opinion?
Does it also means also that we do not have free will? Free will is the base of
most Christian beliefs.
And how about the terrorist of Al-Quaeda? They have surely misinterpreted Coran.
But they claim to follow it. Aren't they tempted? They murdered thousend of
people in the 9/11. Isn't that being under power of Satan?
I know that there are some unpolite people in the Religion and Science forum but
I don't mean picking a figth, just to understand diferent cultures.
Well, I don't know very well the Coran, just a few lines. I'm from Mexico, a
country that's mostly Catholic. Thougth there's a large Libanese comunity, in my
1,000,000 people city there's only ONE Islamic guy (he's famous because of
that). But is not difficult to find one Coran, so, I'll buy one. I'll read it
soon as I finish reading the Bible.
I can see that there are different points of view among Catholicism and Islam
about freewill.
I want to point out some of these differences. Not to discredit your beliefs,
but because I like comparing among diferents cultures. That's interesting. And
fun.
Hi,too.
Nice to meet you
Quote:
1. In Catholicism, angels don't have freewill NOW. They HAD it at the begining,
as soon as they were created. Now they DON'T HAVE FREE WILL LIKE US.
If they didn't have freewill, how could Lucifer choose disobediente? And the
angels that followed him?
its true, Islam and christian have different viewning on something.
angels only have will for Goods,only for Allah only. they dont have dark
constituent tat dont fit with divinity reality
Quran say lucifer is not angel, but genie who among angels.
there is no angels follow him. because they have contarydiction and great war to
race have human follow them.
Quote:
Yes, they have different positions in Heaven (Choruses) as stated in Old
Testament. But doesn't matter if they are "closer" or not from God.
They are like glasses of diferent sizes. God fills them completely to the top
with His grace. One contain more grace other less, but they are full of grace.
What do you think?
glasses?
angels create from light of God. thats why they cannot far from god and cannot
fall.except something happen.
Quote:
Two differences:Lucifer wants to be God, because he wants to have the grace
within him. Not because of Adam. Adam meant nothing to him, but the opportunity
to spoil God's more loved creature. What does the Coran say about Adam? Why was
he going to be superior to angels? What were those bessings that Lucifer
wouldn't have?
the true is :
lucifer dont wants to become God. He doesnt agree with anyone on that.
the only objective intention evil is "to Prove God"s mistake, because
He choose Adam than him.
In order to do that and TO PROVE HIS ASSUMPTION, lucifer must destroy all human
that he can into depth of sins and destructions. lucifer granted from God,all
ways - making human lost in their way.to prove they (adam and all his childs
dont deserve for All God"s gift.
hm........so you arecurious too,about Adam
to be truth adam all his childs is "Full Image of God". Adam teached
all Names in heaven. This knowledges make adam more superior than angels.
These knowledges also called "True Holy Inteligence within human", but
almost all human forget and careless it.the prophets have missions all human to
remnds/remember again "these". and build-govern the earth with this
supplies.
he state dominate by arrogant, Lucifer claim he is better trhan adam, he reject
to place his head on ground into adam like all angel.
Quote:
The main difference: We believe Jesus is the Second Person of the Three that are
ONE God. His Word and Son, Jesus, became human and Savior of Humanity. That's
because God knew humanity was going to sin because of Lucifer's temptation. What
are the respective places of Jesus and Mohammed in Islam?
your people worship Allah too, but not with his will. you worship Allah in jesus
form. it is thaghut,. All thaghut are enemies for Allah.
Allah is God Owner Tauhid (There ane No God other than God), there is/are no no
connection in Gods place. He didnt share anything with any creation to become
partner/whatever God...
Quote:
2. That was a little repetitive. I apologize. But the part that most interested
me is your statement that people that follow the Coran are not under Lucifer's
power.
We believe the same. Whoever follows God is far from the devil. But I have read
your post s in other places, and I could be wrong, but I think that you meant
that those who follow Coran are NOT TEMPTED.
yes,those WHO RALLY FOLLOW STRAIGHT WAY FROM GOD, never tempted and lost from
God. All way from these are lucifer foods..
Quote:
Does that mean that people that are not Islamic don't have the chance of being
saved?
Nowadays in Catholicism (in the past the ideas were more rigid), we believe that
whoever that has followed the path of good can be saved. Saying no to that would
be like limiting God's mercifullness. What's your
opinion?
as lomg as they dontchoose Allah as God Owner tauhid.
He only save and helps chooose Him as that
Quote:
Does it also means also that we do not have free will? Free will is the base of
most Christian beliefs.
of course all human have Free Will, to choose Allah path or thaghut path....
please read my previous replies about these issue.
Quote: And how about the terrorist
of Al-Quaeda? They have surely misinterpreted Coran. But they claim to follow
it. Aren't they tempted? They murdered thousend of people in the 9/11. Isn't
that being under power of Satan?
this is complex problem.
but one thing for sure, we acnnot do whatever we like to do, unless its right in
religuiom law.
terorist has choose their path like that. we are not looked like them.
the war only permitted by law, and if religion nation has been establish.
Quote:
I know that there are some unpolite people in the Religion and Science forum but
I don't mean picking a figth, just to understand diferent cultures.
By the way, where are you from?
no, i dont puck fight too just debating,discussion,etc
I am from Indonesian. same with @baby lemon,perhaps?
Nice to meet you,mexico people
merged: 11-24-2006 ~ 12:19pm
Quote:
Hi, risingcrecent.
Well, I don't know very well the Coran, just a few lines. I'm from Mexico, a
country that's mostly Catholic. Thougth there's a large Libanese comunity, in my
1,000,000 people city there's only ONE Islamic guy (he's famous because of
that). But is not difficult to find one Coran, so, I'll buy one. I'll read it
soon as I finish reading the Bible.
I can see that there are different points of view among Catholicism and Islam
about freewill.
I want to point out some of these differences. Not to discredit your beliefs,
but because I like comparing among diferents cultures. That's interesting. And
fun.
Hi,too.
Nice to meet you
Quote:
1. In Catholicism, angels don't have freewill NOW. They HAD it at the begining,
as soon as they were created. Now they DON'T HAVE FREE WILL LIKE US.
If they didn't have freewill, how could Lucifer choose disobediente? And the
angels that followed him?
its true, Islam and christian have different viewing on something.
angels only have will for Goods,only for Allah only. they dont have dark
constituent that dont fit with divinity reality
Quran say lucifer is not angel, but genie who among angels.
there is no angels follow him. because they have contradiction and great war to
race have human follow them.
Quote:
Yes, they have different positions in Heaven (Choruses) as stated in Old
Testament. But doesn't matter if they are "closer" or not from God.
They are like glasses of diferent sizes. God fills them completely to the top
with His grace. One contain more grace other less, but they are full of grace.
What do you think?
glasses?
angels create from light of God. thats why they cannot far from god and cannot
fall.except something happen.
Quote:
Two differences:Lucifer wants to be God, because he wants to have the grace
within him. Not because of Adam. Adam meant nothing to him, but the opportunity
to spoil God's more loved creature. What does the Coran say about Adam? Why was
he going to be superior to angels? What were those bessings that Lucifer
wouldn't have?
the true is :
lucifer dont wants to become God. He doesnt agree with anyone on that.
the only objective intention evil is "to Prove God"s mistake, because
He choose Adam than him.
In order to do that and TO PROVE HIS ASSUMPTION, lucifer must destroy all human
that he can into depth of sins and destructions. lucifer granted from God,all
ways - making human lost in their way.to prove they (adam and all his childs
dont deserve for All God"s gift.
hm........so you are curious too,about Adam
to be truth adam all his childs is "Full Image of God". Adam teached
all Names in heaven. This knowledges make adam more superior than angels.
These knowledges also called "True Holy Inteligence within human", but
almost all human forget and careless it.the prophets have missions all human to
remnds/remember again "these". and build-govern the earth with this
supplies.
he state dominate by arrogant, Lucifer claim he is better trhan adam, he reject
to place his head on ground into adam like all angel.
Quote:
The main difference: We believe Jesus is the Second Person of the Three that are
ONE God. His Word and Son, Jesus, became human and Savior of Humanity. That's
because God knew humanity was going to sin because of Lucifer's temptation. What
are the respective places of Jesus and Mohammed in Islam?
your people worship Allah too, but not with his will. you worship Allah in jesus
form. it is thaghut,. All thaghut are enemies for Allah.
Allah is God Owner Tauhid (There ane No God other than God), there is/are no no
connection in Gods place. He didnt share anything with any creation to become
partner/whatever God...
Quote:
2. That was a little repetitive. I apologize. But the part that most interested
me is your statement that people that follow the Coran are not under Lucifer's
power.
We believe the same. Whoever follows God is far from the devil. But I have read
your post s in other places, and I could be wrong, but I think that you meant
that those who follow Coran are NOT TEMPTED.
yes,those WHO RALLY FOLLOW STRAIGHT WAY FROM GOD, never tempted and lost from
God. All way from these are lucifer foods..
Quote:
Does that mean that people that are not Islamic don't have the chance of being
saved?
Nowadays in Catholicism (in the past the ideas were more rigid), we believe that
whoever that has followed the path of good can be saved. Saying no to that would
be like limiting God's mercifullness. What's your
opinion?
as lomg as they dontchoose Allah as God Owner tauhid.
He only save and helps chooose Him as that
Quote:
Does it also means also that we do not have free will? Free will is the base of
most Christian beliefs.
of course all human have Free Will, to choose Allah path or thaghut path....
please read my previous replies about these issue.
Quote: And how about the terrorist
of Al-Quaeda? They have surely misinterpreted Coran. But they claim to follow
it. Aren't they tempted? They murdered thousend of people in the 9/11. Isn't
that being under power of Satan?
this is complex problem.
but one thing for sure, we cannot do whatever we like to do, unless its right in
religion law.
terorist has choose their path like that. we are not looked like them.
the war only permitted by law, and if religion nation has been establish.
Quote:
I know that there are some unpolite people in the Religion and Science forum but
I don't mean picking a figth, just to understand diferent cultures.
By the way, where are you from?
no, i dont pick fight too just debating,discussion,etc
I am from Indonesian. same with @baby lemon,perhaps?
ok...technically this is wat a fallen angel is (for those of u who dont kno...hey! i didnt kno till a few days ago either):
(Note:this is not in my own words)
A fallen angel in Abrahamic traditions is an angel that has been exiled or banished from Heaven. Often such banishment is a punishment for disobeying or rebelling against God. One early source for information on angelology as well as demonology, is the Persian prophet Zoroaster, who is thought to have influenced Judeo-Christian beliefs [1]. The best-known fallen angel is Satan. According to some traditions, fallen angels will roam the Earth until Judgment Day, when they will be banished to Hell.
it is sed that well, the main reasons fallen angels fell were cause of freewill, lust (love/desire), and pride. w/ the devil...he had 2 much pride and hate. he thought he cud be better than god and well...he had hate.
wat i want 2 kno is do u thnk that the fallen angels were cast out oif heaven fairly? i mean, do u thnk fallen angels deserve 2 be sent out of heaven b/c thy fell in luv?
i dont thnk u shud be sent out of heaven b/c of luv...wat do u thnk?
...... i don't think freewill was one of the 7 sins..... and for lust.....err...i guess it matters. if it's love then no. absolutely not. if it was some rapist angel or soemthing then yeah. for pride. pride is a good thing. although if u start to get a big ego then u should be scolded instead of being cast away from heaven. as for hate.....we all hate someone in our life eh? so yeah.... i don't really know what to say after this
In John Milton's Paradise Lost, Satan, the fallen angel, was actually your typical hero of the novel who fell to temptations. Angels are disciples of God, when they betray His trust, they are given the most severe punishment in heaven (as far as we know): to fall from it.
The Fallen Angel you refer to were in love with themselves and were obcessive over specific things: Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath, Envy, and Pride, something we know as the 7 Deadly Sins. And thus, it was fair. Heaven has no place for such angels who are concerned with their own welfare.
But there one problem with them banished (and something you misunderstand): Heaven is Perfect, Hell is where they are condemned. According to Judeo-Christianity, that it. Unfortunately, this isn't possible. If Hell is where the Fallen Angels are Banished, then Hell is a place God designed and can use. And thus Hell itself is a place of punishment and not of Sin. If Heaven is perfect, then all that is not is cast out, such as most souls who leave earth. They don't belong there. Hence the levels of heaven which is simply absurd.
I get the feeling you like the Fallen Angels because of their Mysticism. Just because they are Fallen doesn't mean they aren't beautiful, and misunderstood by people. Everything is ultimately your decision, and that's what counts. Love them because they are NO DIFFERENT than we are, not because they ARE.
Here we go with religion again. *deep sigh* Don't get me wrong, it's important and I'm not saying my beliefs are right but it seems to me as though a lot of religions portray god as less than perfect (I'll probably get flamed for that one
). But it seems as though love is what one might consider a divine emotion.
And God has always been portrayed as a loving creator. If this is the case then
he would never cast anyone out. Because to truly love you need to understand
that no one's perfect. And that even with all the imperfections every being
(angel or not) is capable of loving and wants to love. As it was once put by a
very wise person I know "people are fountains of stupid" and it's
true. And if a being has emotions it is impossible for them to control those
emotions all the time. So to banish someone to such a degree on the basis of
emotion would be callous and love is all about understanding and empathy.
In short I guess I'm trying to say that I don't think God would ever really do that and if you look at fallen angels and humans they really aren't so different, but that doesn't mean we're all going to hell.
I think fallen angels are meant to be somewhat of a subconcious allegory of humans. We know of our imperfections and feel that perhaps that's why we're here but we don't think about it conciously and so it comes out through the subconcious. In the form of archangel stories.
but how do we even know if there is a god?
there isn't (or at least i don't think there's one)
You are in the Religion and Science Forum. You realize that right? You didn't take a wrong turn at Music & Movies or anything and stumble in here? You really shouldn't be surprised if religion pops up in a forum with Religion as the first word in the tittle.
Anyway, to understand the concept of angels being cast out of heaven, you have to understand a few things, which are, in fact, possibly harder to understand than you might think. First is the nature of Heaven, second Love, third what angels are, and forth what it means to fall from Heaven. Those aren't neccessarily in order of importance, nor neccessarily all you need to understand.
Heaven is not easily understood, since none of us really know what its like. Really, it would be easier to figure out Hell, although thats not entirely understandable. Just as it may be easier to understand demons then angels (I say demons instead of fallen angels since their nature changes upon falling [see: Lucifer: What do you believe in now?]) As C.S. Lewis states at the end of The Screwtape letters, or the foreword of Screwtape Proposes A Toast, not sure which right now. The best discriptions of heaven though have it not as a place though, so much as a state of being. Not neccessarily physical, but beyond the physical. What it is is perfection, joy, and love. But this perfection, joy, and love, is the state of being in the presence and intimately connected with God and all others. Another description also indicates that Heaven can be on earth, and that in fact the goal of the christian is to make heaven on earth, in two ways: By tending to those in need, improving the world around you, and forming unity with your fellow man, or although generally including the previous, by becoming in a state where you are so connected in love with God that you are always happy, and serve with pleasure, so to speak (ex: Francis of Assisi was believed you generally be happy and full of joy and love, even though he choose an impovershed life, cut his feet from walking on jagged rocks, and endured other hardships, because he was so in love with God that none of it mattered to him). In any case, all good descriptions of heaven agree that it involves a deep intamacy and connection with God.
Now, understanding this, you can see that falling from Heaven means losing that connection with God. Now, if one rebels, or becomes consumed with other things, such as through the deadly sins, one loses this connection since one ignores God, or actively goes against God. It actually becomes more of a choice, accept God, or reject God, for whatever reason. Demons are said to be those beings of spirit who at one point rejected God, and since, unlike humans, their decisions are perminant as they live in eternity, they rejected God forever and turned away from Him. Now, you obviously can't connect to God if you have rejected Him.
Just how this all happened isn't really that clear, and I don't think anyone has ever really seen it happen.
Now love is probably a bit easier to understand, yet still very complex, especially when you are dealing with love of God. First, there are three types of love you must understand (sometimes more are concidered, but lets go with the ones the greeks used): Eros, Agape, and Philia. I won't try to explain all of them, as that would take alot and a while and more understanding than I have anyway. Let it surfice for now that Eros is a romantic love and usually a self-seeking love (love looking for something it likes to fulfill oneself), Agape is known as the Divine Love and is a self-giving love (generally summed as: The giving of self, for the good of the beloved, without condition), and philia is a brotherly love which is more communal and I actually know less, but its the love between friends essentially. Now all these ideally mix together in any close relationship, such as one with God. Yes, God gives Agape, and Agape is apparently the most used form of love used in the greek bible (which the New Testiment was written in), and is known for that, but the relationship with God also may reach into the Eros and Philia, in various senses. That can be looked into more on your own, a good explination of Agape and Eros being used may be found in Pope Benedict XVI first enciclical letter, as it is on love, but some of that is more cleanup work of misconceptions and it doesn't go into too much detail of philia. There are other sources as well of course.
Now, someone mentioned that if God trully loved, he would accept that no one is perfect. Well, the problem is that thats not neccessarily true that people aren't perfect, since they CAN be, they just aren't, and it would be very hard to be. However, God does accept that people are not. Which is why, along with loving, God is also often depicted as Merciful (in fact, I believe that is also one of the names of God in Islam, or something to that effect). However, there is a condition on this mercy, seeking it. God forgives the imperfections of man, however we must want and seek his forgiveness, and do it with sincerity. There is a saying that goes "All the sins of the world throughout all of history are but a drop in the ocean of God's Mercy". After all, as I like to see it (and I am branching into particularly christianity even more now, but it seems we've been there throughout this topic), Jesus died for each person individually, and, as is said in John he died for his friends, as he says "The greatest love is this: to lay down ones life for ones friends," he died for Judus, one of his close friends who betrayed him. Now that becomes interesting, since as I see it, he died for one of his closest friends, a friend he had lived with for the last few years and been close to who turned around and betrayed him by handing him over to die, so, in fact, he died in order to save him from the sin of betraying him, but he also did this knowing that Judus would not repent, and would instead kill himself and be lost despite Jesus forgiving him and dying for him. Now, usually it is concidered that Judus died and went to hell (not always that he commited suicide though) but I won't go into judging him or anyone else, but for the sake of the message, he went to hell despite all this, and Jesus knew it, but he performed this act of love anyone.
Now this can be likened to everyone. Jesus died for each individually, even knowing that it might be in vain, because they would turn away from him and choose to fall into hell rather than come to him and accept what they did and seek forgiveness from the one they betrayed. Of course this plays out differently in practice depending on the situation, but you get the idea. However, thats not really what the topic is about.
So anyway, Angels that turn away from God, do so permanently, and its not really unloving of God to send them away, since its more of they sent themselves away, by not accpeting God's love and his ways. And it is said that the greatest pain of Hell is not the fires, but the absence of God, and for those who knew Him in Heaven, it is worse by comparison. Although it is also said, that the one who is in fact good, in the presence of God and his perfection, would, seeing any trace of his own imperfection, rather cast himself into a thosand hells then stand before God with a single blemish of imperfection (hence the concept of purgatory, which would be chosen by those sent as they are good but have imperfections and want to rid themselves of those imperfections). Demons have a different situations though, as they choose to turn away and fight against God for whatever reason.
Anyway, if you've made it this far, I will address smaller issues that came up.
Pride is a deadly sin and is wrong. Usually people don't speak of the kind of this kind of pride though. Pride is thinking yourself better then you are, or thinking highly of yourself and becoming consumed by it. The garden of eden story can be interpeted that the first sin was in fact the pride of believing they could be like God. Humility is the opposite of this Pride, and is thus a Virtue.
Demons can be seen as being like human, but in the same way as Angels can. They are beings of spirit, after all, just as humans are, except that humans also are physical beings with bodies. Humans have the ability to choose good or evil and go back and forth until their death, when they become eternal and their choice is permanant. At which point they are more like either demon or angel who is set as they are.
Someone asked how we know there is a God? How do we exist? or that anything else does? If you can accept those things, its not too hard. The other way is by expirencing God, which anyone can. People say He hides and won't reveal Himself to anyone, but thats not really true, He does all the time, but the most completely He just waits for us to seek Him out and get rid of all our distractions first. Although, for many of us, its also a matter of simply believing. Others more qualified then I have answered this question, go look for them if you'd like.
As for the question were they cast out fairly: it should be clear by now that I would say yes, as they choose to be cast out.
merged: 08-16-2006 ~ 01:46pm
wow i wrote alot. Sorry guys, i really need to stop posting late at night when i'm sleep deprived.
Is hell really that bad a place for demons/devils/ whatever you call them? It seems to me that only humans that are sent there are suffering, while the "fallen angels" seems to be able to move around freely even in the human world...
So how is sending them to hell a punishment?
They have expirenced the joys and wonders of Heaven. Thus, the loss of it is punishment, and everything in comparison is a worse hell then any physical suffering could give them, although they too may be suffering those types of pains as well. I believe the play Doctor Faustus by Christopher Marlowe used this standpoint as well, describing earth as being as bad as hell to the demon which assists Faustus since everything is pain and suffering to those who had expirenced Heaven and now are doomed to be outside it.
Thats one take on that question. There are various other pains and such which have been suggested to make demons and devils miserable, and in fact this misery has been used to help explain why they try to tempt humans, the old "Misery loves company" explination, but i don't entirly buy into that one.
this is very serious matter.
First,Quran say him is not angel. but genie who have angel power and present in among angels .
He is Our Number one enemy.
His objective is only one : destroy human!Adam,and all his childs.
First,He doesnt place on ground his head for Adam like all angels.
God is Anger and banished him.
then this genie make promise with God that he wants to makle human lost from God way.he is called \"iblis\"
iblis succeded make adam and eve out from Heaven.he succceed to broke adam and eve\"s cloth!
so why we must lost to him who succeed defeat adam once times and make us suffer in this earth..
after this,god sent adam to earth start new life.He said that adam and all childs have eternal wars each other vs iblis and his childs (satans).
Whoever follow hints from God,will be placed into Heaven by God.If not,will be throw into hell!
Well, based on Catholic beliefs based mostly in the book of Revelation, the Tradition, the reflexions of the ancient Fathers of the Church and some private revelation that some saints received; I'll try my best to give a shorter answer:
1. ANGELS DON'T FALL ANYMORE. They can't.
When the angels where created, they HAD FREE WILL AS US. They could choose between good and evil (obediente or not).
2. God already knew that the Prince of Angels, The Morning Star, Lucifer was going to betray Him. His reasons where based in a false pride: He wanted to have the Grace of God within him, but WITHOUT GOD. He wanted His job. Grace doesn't comes if not from God.
3. He needed soldiers for his cause, so, all he needed it was a reason for others to follow.
4. God already knew about the rebelion, so he comunicated His desire to make a material world, besides the spiritual. He was going to create Humans, creatures a little lower than angels.
5. But knowing that Lucifer was going to corrupt Creation by brinning death and sin upon it God announced that His Word, the Son, was going to become human. Threfore, THE ANGELS WOULD HAVE TO ADORE AND KNEEL BEFORE A HUMAN.
6. That WAS THE FIRST "INSULT" TO ANGELIC CONDITION. Lucifer (Satan) got his first followers.
7. SECOND "INSULT": This is valid in Catholic and Ortodoxes Churches, since Evangelic and its ramifications and modern sects don't like the idea of Virgin Mary very much. A little teenager girl that nothing hadn to do with the Divine would have to be called their "Queen" by the angels.
8. Then there was a BATTLE IN HEAVENS Saint Michael (who didn't have a name until them, when he pronounced as his flag the phrase "No one is like God", Michael, in aramean, and his armies; versus Lucifer and his followers. It was kind of an intelectual battle. Some changed bands. It's not supossed to pass time in eternity, but God gave them this time to rethink.
8. Angels have a gift and a course in their nature: they have perfect intelligence. They don't need to reason. So when they finally made their choice, they couldn't go back. Lucifer took one third of them, according to Revelation.
9. God gave the angels that stayed with Him a gift: they couldn't choose evil anymore. THEIR FREE WILL WAS RETIRED, SO THEY WOULDN'T BE TEMPTED AGAIN. The proof was over, anyway, so they didn't need it anymore. SO, THEY CAN'T FALL
I read all that stuff in a book written by a known exorcist in Europe. "Summa Demoniaca" is its name.
I failed. I couldn't made it short.
Sorry I bored you.
A leap of faith, isn't it? Curiuos story, anyway.
No.
Angels dont have free will. Their position already had been decide by God.
They dont have ladder to move up closer or down move away from God like genie and human.
Lucifer/iblis doesnt want rival or better being other than himself.
When adam created,Adam is granted many and more \"Goods\" that makes lucifer face become red.
Lucifer blame Allah that God makes mistake choose adam other than him.
In order to prove his \"assumption\", he made promise with God...
God made promise, lucifer asks have life until armageddon and thats granted.
God give power for lucifer whoever humans follows lucifer will be controlled become lucifer follower to enter hell.
Quran stated iblis doesnt have power over humans that only follow prophet and holy book.
merged: 11-18-2006 ~ 10:52pm
No.
Angels dont have free will. Their position already had been decide by God.
They dont have ladder to move up closer or down move away from God like genie and human.
Lucifer/iblis doesnt want rival or better being other than himself.
When adam created,Adam is granted many and more \"Goods\" that makes lucifer face become red.
Lucifer blame Allah that God makes mistake choose adam other than him.
In order to prove his \"assumption\", he made promise with God...
God made promise, lucifer asks have life until armageddon and thats granted.
God give power for lucifer whoever humans follows lucifer will be controlled become lucifer follower to enter hell.
Quran stated iblis doesnt have power over humans that only follow prophet and holy book.
Hi, risingcrecent.
Well, I don't know very well the Coran, just a few lines. I'm from Mexico, a country that's mostly Catholic. Thougth there's a large Libanese comunity, in my 1,000,000 people city there's only ONE Islamic guy (he's famous because of that).
But is not difficult to find one Coran, so, I'll buy one. I'll read
it soon as I finish reading the Bible.
I can see that there are different points of view among Catholicism and Islam about freewill.
I want to point out some of these differences. Not to discredit your beliefs, but because I like comparing among diferents cultures. That's interesting. And fun.
1. In Catholicism, angels don't have freewill NOW. They HAD it at the begining, as soon as they were created. Now they DON'T HAVE FREE WILL LIKE US.
If they didn't have freewill, how could Lucifer choose disobediente? And the angels that followed him?
ANGELS HAVE PERFECT INTELIGENSES. The fallen can't repent, because they choosed their position and are stuck in it. God removed freewill from good angels as a reward, so they can't be tempted to do evil. So, they enjoy God's grace.
Yes, they have different positions in Heaven (Choruses) as stated in Old Testament. But doesn't matter if they are "closer" or not from God. They are like glasses of diferent sizes. God fills them completely to the top with His grace. One contain more grace other less, but they are full of grace. What do you think?
One point in common: Lucifer feels betrayed in his angelic condition by the creation of Humankind.
Two differences:Lucifer wants to be God, because he wants to have the grace within him. Not because of Adam. Adam meant nothing to him, but the opportunity to spoil God's more loved creature. What does the Coran say about Adam? Why was he going to be superior to angels? What were those bessings that Lucifer wouldn't have?
So, in your religion Lucifer's sin was Envy. In mine, was Pride, or arrogance. Is it like this?
The main difference: We believe Jesus is the Second Person of the Three that are ONE God. His Word and Son, Jesus, became human and Savior of Humanity. That's because God knew humanity was going to sin because of Lucifer's temptation. What are the respective places of Jesus and Mohammed in Islam?
2. That was a little repetitive. I apologize. But the part that most interested me is your statement that people that follow the Coran are not under Lucifer's power.
We believe the same. Whoever follows God is far from the devil. But I have read your post s in other places, and I could be wrong, but I think that you meant that those who follow Coran are NOT TEMPTED.
Does that mean that people that are not Islamic don't have the chance of being saved?
Nowadays in Catholicism (in the past the ideas were more rigid), we believe that whoever that has followed the path of good can be saved. Saying no to that would be like limiting God's mercifullness. What's your opinion?
Does it also means also that we do not have free will? Free will is the base of most Christian beliefs.
And how about the terrorist of Al-Quaeda? They have surely misinterpreted Coran. But they claim to follow it. Aren't they tempted? They murdered thousend of people in the 9/11. Isn't that being under power of Satan?
I know that there are some unpolite people in the Religion and Science forum but I don't mean picking a figth, just to understand diferent cultures.
By the way, where are you from?
Hi,too.
Nice to meet you
its true, Islam and christian have different viewning on something.
angels only have will for Goods,only for Allah only. they dont have dark constituent tat dont fit with divinity reality
Quran say lucifer is not angel, but genie who among angels.
there is no angels follow him. because they have contarydiction and great war to race have human follow them.
glasses?
angels create from light of God. thats why they cannot far from god and cannot fall.except something happen.
the true is :
lucifer dont wants to become God. He doesnt agree with anyone on that.
the only objective intention evil is "to Prove God"s mistake, because He choose Adam than him.
In order to do that and TO PROVE HIS ASSUMPTION, lucifer must destroy all human that he can into depth of sins and destructions. lucifer granted from God,all ways - making human lost in their way.to prove they (adam and all his childs dont deserve for All God"s gift.
hm........so you arecurious too,about Adam
to be truth adam all his childs is "Full Image of God". Adam teached all Names in heaven. This knowledges make adam more superior than angels.
These knowledges also called "True Holy Inteligence within human", but almost all human forget and careless it.the prophets have missions all human to remnds/remember again "these". and build-govern the earth with this supplies.
he state dominate by arrogant, Lucifer claim he is better trhan adam, he reject to place his head on ground into adam like all angel.
your people worship Allah too, but not with his will. you worship Allah in jesus form. it is thaghut,. All thaghut are enemies for Allah.
Allah is God Owner Tauhid (There ane No God other than God), there is/are no no connection in Gods place. He didnt share anything with any creation to become partner/whatever God...
yes,those WHO RALLY FOLLOW STRAIGHT WAY FROM GOD, never tempted and lost from God. All way from these are lucifer foods..
as lomg as they dontchoose Allah as God Owner tauhid.
He only save and helps chooose Him as that
of course all human have Free Will, to choose Allah path or thaghut path....
please read my previous replies about these issue.
this is complex problem.
but one thing for sure, we acnnot do whatever we like to do, unless its right in religuiom law.
terorist has choose their path like that. we are not looked like them.
the war only permitted by law, and if religion nation has been establish.
no, i dont puck fight too just debating,discussion,etc
I am from Indonesian. same with @baby lemon,perhaps?
Nice to meet you,mexico people
merged: 11-24-2006 ~ 12:19pm
Hi,too.
Nice to meet you
its true, Islam and christian have different viewing on something.
angels only have will for Goods,only for Allah only. they dont have dark constituent that dont fit with divinity reality
Quran say lucifer is not angel, but genie who among angels.
there is no angels follow him. because they have contradiction and great war to race have human follow them.
glasses?
angels create from light of God. thats why they cannot far from god and cannot fall.except something happen.
the true is :
lucifer dont wants to become God. He doesnt agree with anyone on that.
the only objective intention evil is "to Prove God"s mistake, because He choose Adam than him.
In order to do that and TO PROVE HIS ASSUMPTION, lucifer must destroy all human that he can into depth of sins and destructions. lucifer granted from God,all ways - making human lost in their way.to prove they (adam and all his childs dont deserve for All God"s gift.
hm........so you are curious too,about Adam
to be truth adam all his childs is "Full Image of God". Adam teached all Names in heaven. This knowledges make adam more superior than angels.
These knowledges also called "True Holy Inteligence within human", but almost all human forget and careless it.the prophets have missions all human to remnds/remember again "these". and build-govern the earth with this supplies.
he state dominate by arrogant, Lucifer claim he is better trhan adam, he reject to place his head on ground into adam like all angel.
your people worship Allah too, but not with his will. you worship Allah in jesus form. it is thaghut,. All thaghut are enemies for Allah.
Allah is God Owner Tauhid (There ane No God other than God), there is/are no no connection in Gods place. He didnt share anything with any creation to become partner/whatever God...
yes,those WHO RALLY FOLLOW STRAIGHT WAY FROM GOD, never tempted and lost from God. All way from these are lucifer foods..
as lomg as they dontchoose Allah as God Owner tauhid.
He only save and helps chooose Him as that
of course all human have Free Will, to choose Allah path or thaghut path....
please read my previous replies about these issue.
this is complex problem.
but one thing for sure, we cannot do whatever we like to do, unless its right in religion law.
terorist has choose their path like that. we are not looked like them.
the war only permitted by law, and if religion nation has been establish.
no, i dont pick fight too just debating,discussion,etc
I am from Indonesian. same with @baby lemon,perhaps?
Nice to meet you,mexico people
Very interesting. Nice to meet you too. I have a lot of questions, but to not be unpolite to midnightprincess I'll see you in your space.
Thank you.
And nice to meet you, too.
I think thats not problem for @midnight if you want to ask question here.especially it refers to topic .
If we have question, I think we let it go at that time, if not -i dont think we will have same chance.
Technically, fallen angels are called demons, right?