This past weekend South Africa played in a game of rugby against England. Ever since the end of Apartheid (seperate and undemocratic standards for non-white people) in South Africa, many white South Africans left the country either in fear of reprisal or due to affirmative action and thus no work for qualified white people. Whatever the case, many left for England. During this game at Twickenham stadium a few of these ex-pats displayed the old South African flag, today seen as a symbol of that dark and evil regime of the past. For those not familiar with what exactly transpired during the years of Apartheid can contact through the guestbook.

This week it has been quite a discussion as to whether the display of the old flag at sporting events, be it in South Africa or abroad by ex-pats should be seen as mere lack of respect, unacceptance to let go of the past or a mockery of the new government (who by the way are in certain terms governing in a reverse form Apartheid).

Someone mentioned that the old Confederate flag is sold and displayed in the USA with no eyebrows lifted about it with no care as to what its history holds. Can we in South Africa not adopt the same live-and-let-live, forgive-and-forget attitude? Or will there always be people to either throw the past in everybody else's faces or to continously condemn the relics of the past?

Your thoughts.

Actually many people in the US are offended by displays of the Confederate flag. Apparently it's tolerated in parts of the South (correct me if I'm wrong), but other parts of the nation were never part of the Confederacy and generally don't like seeing it.

I suppose the situation isn't quite the same in SA, because (again, correct me if I'm wrong) the whole country was controlled by the "evil regime", while in America only part of it was. But considering how long it's been since the Confederacy was dismantled, I'd say this tension in South Africa will be around for quite a while.

I'm a South African myself - I know the history. Personally I prefer the old flag to the newer one - the new one was made to make a clean break with the past. Why then did the old flag sprout England's flag? We were a British Colony for a few years, we rebelled and had two wars with England. In 1928, after we achieved independence, we had our flag made - with England's flag on it! Were we spitefull? Did we want to ignore our history? Any idea what the Dutch and early Afrikaners went through under the England's reign? How many English place names were changed? None! So how come the current "new regime" has to change everything?

You can say what you want about previously disadvantaged people, but how can you put people with little or no experience in important governmental posts? Our industries have really taken a knock due to affirmative action (which, as Cybo stated, is basically a reveresed form of Apartheid) where you get a job based on colour and not on merit.

Sorry for sounding bitter, but to a certain extent I am. Looking at history it has been made clear to me that the transition from the old Apartheid regime to the new free and democratic (HA!) regime could have gone a lot better.

Back to the original question....the old flag was never hoisted at a war which we lost. So there should be less bitterness attached to our flag than to the Confederate flag (I don't believe for one second that the previously disadvantaged peoples of the Apartheid era had suffered nearly as much as any American during their Civil War). I just hope that our beloved old flag never get associated with racist rednecks (I apologise for the gross generilization).

Quote by CyboCan we in South Africa not adopt the same live-and-let-live, forgive-and-forget attitude? Or will there always be people to either throw the past in everybody else's faces or to continously condemn the relics of the past?

I pray for this day. Our government isn't nearly as tolerant as the American government. Just imagine what would happen if any of our current high officials were to receive the same amount of bad press and publicity that Pres Bush receives! Old man Zuma flipped his lid after a few satires! And why? Because he's a moron that said moronic things! Just read this link if you want to see what I'm talking about. And this guy used to be our deputy president!

People get offended over small things like this when they really should be concentrating on the big picture. Screw the few guys who are racists or a#$@%*#s. These flags are parts of the histories of the countries and therefore should be respected for that if nothing else. I know of several cities that display the Confederate flag along with the US and a few foreign flags because of the history of the city and I have heard of a few cities where narrow minded and easily offended people have taken issue with the display of the Confederate flag and tried to have it removed and in my mind its a good thing that the flag stayed and those people were rebuffed. After all it serves as a reminder of our history and no truer words than "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it" have ever been spoken. As to the people that display these pieces of history out of anger or racism, etc... Ignore them because they are not worth your or anyone else's time.

Thank you so much for the contributions guys, I appreciate it tremendously. It is interesting to read your thoughts, both from SA citizens and those from other countries.

I agree that to flaunt relics of the past simply to offend others is wrong and the better thing to do is to simply laugh it off. But to go and wipe out all trace of our history (be it bad or not) and to be offended by those who still hold on to the symbolism of these objects, well that in it's own right is non-democratic is it not? I mean, part of a free and democratic society and constitution is the right to express yourself and your views. I loved our old flag, even more than I like our present flag and for this love I'm to be judged and old racist and Apartheid lover! Apartheid was the worst thing that could ever happen to our country. Because of it we are in the messy situation we find ourselves today. Because of it we are experiencing the underlying tension and anger that so very often explodes onto the public scene, mostly in the form of violence.

But apart from this, are we to be told and ordered that all things from our past are to be forgotten and dismissed?

As far as the name changing goes - don't even get me started. I think I'll chat about that in another thread.

I'm italian and maybe I can see the whole matter in a different way.
We try to keep alive the refuse of all the nazi-fascism symbols.
It seems that the past haunt the present with these symbols.
As always, I can talk only about what I know.
I KNOW the Apartheid and maybe I'm too obvious in saying that I refuse any kind of discrimination.
But my refuse goes beyond the simple anger. It can easily turn to hate.
Yeah, I'm very intolerant against who is intolerant!
The story is ever the same: money, power and other "economical" interest.
Maybe if South Africa had the oil or more diamonds the USA could have a eyebrows lifted about it.
With this I dont'd wan to say anything else different from what I say: it's my thought.

thanks again for your comments and views

Speaking from a liberal point of view, any individual is fit to do as he likes. The fact that not many controversies are seen in regard to the flag in the U.S. is probably due to the fact that the majority of the population is ingorant of apartheid, furthermore events such as the Iraqi war take center stage. I feel take people have a right to express their opinions, even if racialism takes part of it.

In regard to the affirmative action in South Africa, I too share the disappointment of the intolerance created; even so, it needs to be mentioned the fact that society suffers sudden changes, and when it does occur the opress party either continue to be press or become the opressors.

Even if the U.S. is more racial tolerate today, for the major part of history racial conflicts arouse. It needs to be mentioned that slavery ended in the 1960's but it was not until a century later that society started to become more acepting of African americans. Today immigration issues also shows that not all conflicts have been solve.